A story all CPL holders should read & why you need plenty of ammo

[OldLincoln]

I'm linking to the post where I saw it vs. copy it all here. This story is from the LEO that experienced it and has a lot behind it. It was posted today and I don't recall seeing it around, so I think it's fresh.

It is a very sobering event that can be second guessed to death, but it is what it is. I hope you will read a post your thoughts.

A story all CPL holders should read & why you need plenty of ammo (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=426115)

[Tilos]

A good read
Thanks for posting the link.
Tilos

[kahrseye]

There is no way one can prepare for every situation, it's impossible. Whether or not the leo should have intervened could be argued forever. What may have happened if he didn't intervene? The situation could have been much worse but we'll never know. I personally know leo's that don't carry off duty and it boggles the mind. Many police departments leave the decision to carry off duty up to the individual. If I were an leo I would carry all the time. I couldn't live with myself if someone I cared about got hurt and I could have prevented it. The old saying "better to have a gun and not need it than the other way around" comes to mind. I commend the officer for doing his duty while off duty.

[dusty10]

Don't see how he could have avoided the gun battle unless he had left the building when he told his wife to do so. The time from telling his wife to leave until the time the bad guy rushed him firing must have been short or the wife would surely have tried another door to exit. They could not have ALL been locked. A tragedy the young girl was killed by the bad guy but it could have been worse had the LEO not gotten some people out of the building.

[jocko]

personally he should have just remained a witness. the LEO was prepared. for a gun fight, everyone else including the 9 year old was not. from reading it, I can sense he wished he would have remained a witness. Certainly a judgement call .

Ask yourslef , if you were a civilian and armed, wouldhave you intervened?? Or analyzed the situation and felt that being a witness would be the best scenario...

[jlottmc]

This is one of those thorny issues that has no clear answer. On the one hand, a good witness would have perhaps and that is a big perhaps, saved the child, yes the officer would have gotten a lot of flak for being a cowardly cop by all the arm chair quarterbacks media and what not. On the other hand, when he announced himself as a cop, the situation was escalated by the bad guy. That's part of the choices you make when you carry.

[ripley16]

Hmmmm. These parts caught my attention;

A "locked fire door". How in the the world do you lock a fire door?

An 11 round adrenaline ammo dump with 10 hits is almost too good.. a little too good?

The second guessing and self doubt all sounds real and reasonable, but I'm always a little dubious of unauthenticated "reports". I lump them into the same catagory as Penthouse Letters. I'm a natural skeptic.

[Longitude Zero]

Once he choose to intervene his only oops was announcing hemself. Better to drop the suspect with no notice.

As to remain a witness or intervene none of us ws there so that discussion really is a moot point. If the officer had not stepped forward there is no legitimate way to determine what would have happened, more people dead, less people dead, nobody dead. Pure specuilation

It is tragic that an innocent person died.

[wyntrout]

I'm a firm believer in 2-3 shots COM and then the head if it appears he's not collapsing and hasn't lost interest in anything else, but emptying all 11 rounds into that guy could be the last thing he did... some of those guys don't work alone and his PO'd homies might come out while he's thinking about reloading... or worse, wishing he had a reload! Then there could be an accomplice acting as a customer and now he has YOUR back... or a driver coming in to help his bud(s).
Situational awareness and not getting tunnel vision are very important, 'cause your body's running on adrenaline and your blinders are on... tunnel vision. If you've never had a really tense situation where the adrenaline is REALLY flowing, it's quite an experience and you need to be aware of the "symptoms" because becoming fixated on the threat becomes all consuming, especially if you've decided on fight instead of flight. Your field of vision can rapidly shrink until it seems no bigger than a 3" pipe and this is where training and practice are really important... recognizing what's happening and being able to perform vital functions on "autopilot" from practice and "muscle memory".

He needs a larger, more powerful cartridge, 'cause what he's carrying ain't doing the job!

JMHO from the armchair.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

Hmmmm. These parts caught my attention;

A "locked fire door". How in the the world do you lock a fire door?

An 11 round adrenaline ammo dump with 10 hits is almost too good.. a little too good?

The second guessing and self doubt all sounds real and reasonable, but I'm always a little dubious of unauthenticated "reports". I lump them into the same catagory as Penthouse Letters. I'm a natural skeptic.

the scenario "smells". 10 out of 11 being"hits"?????? No doubt alot of scenario's of what "we" would have done. I don't think anyone would have condemmed him had he done nothing either, in a crowded building with kids etc. Once the BG seen a gun, the entire game changed . Had a 9 year old not got killed and the BG was dead on arrival, this off duty cop would have truly been a hero but it didn't turn out that way. Lot of responsibility when one pulls his gun out in a public area

[OldLincoln]

I had some thoughts on this also. First, Knowing the BG was in the building with a gun, I think he did the right thing getting people out. Second, the BG showed up unexpectedly as he thought he would go out the back. Once that happened he had no choice but to stop him. When he announced himself the BG started shooting so hes out of options. If the BG had gone out the front where all the excited people were he very well could have freaked if any got in his way.

As for his excellent shooting, he said he teaches his class a drill based on his experience, so he may be a firearms instructor in the PD. 10 rounds in 2 seconds doesn't seem that fast to me, 10/11 hits anywhere on the BG is pretty good.

I saw a gun artist draw and shoot switch mags and shoot again in 1 sec. It was on YouTube so it has to be true. (okay, I'll look for it. Hard to believe me myself).

[henshao]

Reading that thread made me sick at some points. The people blaming the officer for the little girl's death? He caused it?

At what point did he decide to pull the trigger of the perpetrator's gun? Had the bad guy lived I think we'd see a different set of responses, hanging the bad guy in effigy.

[gkstemple]

The BG made two bad choices -- to rob the place and to engage the officer. The LEO reacted as (very well!) trained. Cops are not trained to allow a gun-toting felon to run past them toward inocent people. He didn't. Just because everything is done legally and correctly does not mean that the outcome will be all good. The tragedy of the little girl's death may haunt the LEO to his grave. His family seeing him engage in a gunfight which resulted in two deaths undoubtedly was extremely traumatic to them. The story is a sobering reminder to all who carry that actions may have unintended consequences.

On the tactical side: That (well!) TRAINED Professional shot to slidelock. Carry at least one reload, maybe more if you carry a derringer.

[JustinN]

Beginning note: This story is from 1997.

The Officer did what he thought was best in that situation, and no matter what his actions could always be second guessed. The one thing that still comes to mind though is whether or not he forced a confrontation. The bad guy was robbing the place, which is a crime. Was whatever amount he made off with (probably a couple thousand) worth a little girl's life? No. When I was still a cop I had asked myself what I would do in situations if faced with them while off duty. I had pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I would be an excellent witness, calling 911 and getting more cops there ASAP, unless the suspect actually did something like attempted to kidnap the gas station attendant or actually started shooting (at that point it would have been too late I know) but as a cop you know you are going to be damned regardless of what action you take, and I tend to lean on the lets not force things...I will leave the bad decision in someone else's hands.

A Glock 26 firing to empty, that fast, with almost all rounds on target is quite impressive, if true. You can't really fault the round there, as 2 seconds is barely enough time to die and fall down, but that being said 11 shots in 2 seconds, keeping that many on target, does border on being un believable.

[grumpybutt]

Life deals you cards, some good, some bad. You make the most of what you get. Can't figure the mindset of people anymore, you'll let the "Trash" pile up and stink up neighborhoods, and if the time arises to do a little clean up, let's not bother at this time it's to much trouble. It's a heart breaker to have and innocent person killed or hurt, but the "bleeding hearts" won't empty the trash when the trash can gets full. I sure would like to see them only have to cough up tax money to incarcerate them. Wake up people ! Oh, "You" took on a lot of responsibility when you decided to own or carry a weapon, if you don't want it or can't handle it, you shouldn't have a gun. Just my .02