Is Kahr open to suggestions?

[pm9az]

I emailed Kahr w/ no response, & called & left messages w/ no response. I finally talked to a man is sales, who said he "would pass the information upstairs", but didn't seem real alert or responsive. So I thought I would post the idea here and see what the response would be.

Kahr went to a great deal of trouble to lower the bore axis on their pistols, to make them more compact, as well as to lower perceived recoil. Where they seem to be missing out big time is in the lowering of the pistol in the hand. On my PM9, there is about 1/4" or more of space where the tang (proper term?) could be carved out/raised, thereby lowering the pistol in the hand. Several other manufacturers have incorporated this in their designs - the Springfield XD and Ruger SR9/SR40 come immediately to mind.

The PM9 is not bad in the recoil department, but could stand improvement. The little that I shot a friend's PM40 convinced me to buy the PM9. Hopefully some of you could offer feedback, but especially I hope that someone at Kahr will seriously consider this.

I've attached a small edited pic which shows the idea.

Thanks for your attention.

[jocko]

Not sure what your wanting out of this smallgun. Recoil in a 14 ounce 9mm is what it is. Name me another 14 ounce 9mm out there the size of kahrs. I find zero issue with the recoil of the PM9. Probably the most fun gun I have ever shot.


I improved the recoil in my PM9. I ported it...

[Pender1]

recoil isn't bad on the PM9's. That being said, in order to lower where the pistol sits in your hand they would also have to alter the height of the trigger to keep the pistol level in your hand. Changing one without the other would make you alter the angle you have to hold the pistol and I don't see any way to move the trigger up due to lack of room in the pistol. That would also move your hand further away from the mag release. Just some issues I see.

[WMD]

Not trying to defend Kahr, but did you check your spam filter? I say this because I have had the exact problem you complained about. I did not get a response from Kahr only to find out later... I did get a response. It was filtered as spam and in my "junk" folder.

As far as the PM9 goes..... you mention reducing recoil. I am always in favor of reducing recoil but I do not find the recoil in the PM9 offensive at all. Neither does my wife. :D

I also have no issue with the grip as it is. There is probably no grip on any gun that will be 100% compatible with every shooter. What works for you may not work for someone else. The good news is there is enough meat on the gun for you to "tune" the grip to your hand. My guess is, Kahr probably designed a grip to fit the average hand size. Just my opinion of course.

[pm9az]

Thanks for the feedback so far. Please let me respond to the questions, and add a few comments.

First, there seems to be a consensus with my statement that the PM9's recoil is not bad. However, I was referring to a design change across the entire polymer line, which would help reduce the perceived recoil in all the models. The T9 is probably in the least need of a recoil reduction, while the PM40 and PM45 would benefit the most.

Next, what I want from the design change is: 1. reduced perceived recoil 2. less muzzle flip 3. decreased shot intervals 4. while maintaining stopping power, thinness, light weight, etc.

Next, the angle that the pistol is held in the hand would not change, as far as I can tell. There would be a difference in the angle relationship between the hand and the fingers, but the grip/hand and grip/barrel angles would not change. I've attached several pics of various pistols, and added lines to show that the angles in question are already in production. The mag release would not be moved, but there would be a small change in the angle and distance. For me, the PM9's mag release falls naturally under my thumb. I believe it would still be natural with the design change.

Next, I sent the email w/ delivery and read receipts, and got no answer in any form. It is possible that the reply was blocked by my ISP. That is why I switched to phone calls, with the response as noted above.

I am not complaining about the angle of the grip, nor the fit of the PM9. I have been considering the purchase of a P40 and/or a P45. I liked the feel of the P40 and loved the feel of the P45. IMO, both of these pistols, as well as the PM40 and PM45, would benefit greatly from the design change.

Since the grip of the pistol "is the pistol" for legal purposes, I am hesitant/unwilling to carve it up. It would be easy enough to fill up the void with expoxy, and take the dremel to it, but I'm not willing to do that with a brand new, $1000 pistol. :)

[pm9az]

more pics

[jocko]

If u feel that strongly about it, grab a dremel tool and have at it. You to my knowledge are the FIRST to ever post such a analysis of WHAT KAHR SHOULD DO ACROSS THE ENTIRE LINE. Other than voiding ur warranty, I see no legal ramifications .

[deadhead1971]

but didn't seem real alert or responsive.

as in like three sheets to the wind? :)

[pm9az]

as in like three sheets to the wind? :)
No, not at all. I apologize for giving that impression. It was more like the handling of a suggestion by a company who has no suggestion box, and the employee has no idea what to do with it. eg - Why are you making my life difficult? The person I was talking to seemed to barely grasped the concept, as though he had very little experience with firearms, and suggested that I get a K9 to reduce the recoil.

He was professional and polite, just not interested.

[pm9az]

If u feel that strongly about it, grab a dremel tool and have at it. You to my knowledge are the FIRST to ever post such a analysis of WHAT KAHR SHOULD DO ACROSS THE ENTIRE LINE. Other than voiding ur warranty, I see no legal ramifications .

My reasons stated above for not wanting to take the dremel to my edc weapon still apply. If Kahr were to send me a couple of grip assemblies, I would be happy to prototype the idea for them. Unfortunately, the part needing changed is not something simple like reshaping the slide lock to remove the sharp edges (which Kahr has done on the newer PM9's). The other challenge to making the change at home would be the necessary alterations of the right-hand side plate. All of which would be easy at the manufacturer level, but not so easy for the home tinkerer.

My "feeling strongly" about this is based upon my belief that this would "improve the breed", not upon any belief that "Kahr's are junk". I like the product line, but product improvement and refinement is the name of the game for most manufactured items, including firearms.

I do appreciate your acknowledgement that I am the FIRST to propose this idea to your knowledge. I realized that the idea was very obvious and even proven in production firearms, so wasn't sure that Kahr was not already working on the design improvement, or whether it had been suggested and ignored in the past.

Agreed on the last statement, were I to make the changes to my own PM9, it would likely void the warranty, but violate no laws.

Cheers.

[LuckyGunner]

I just wonder if that isn't something Kahr has looked into and found to be less than desirable.

I do see what you are going for, but doubt that it would make a substantial difference to the firearm that it would be a worthwhile endeavor. That is not to say I wouldn't be interested in seeing what it looks like finished. Good luck to you if you do decide to modify your personal firearm.

[jfrey]

I sent a couple of good ideas to Dillon Reloading a while back and never even got a "thank you" in return. Seems most companies think they got it all figured out and don't need any ideas from the folks who actually use their products. I think Kahr should seriously consider making a CW380, but alas, they probably think they know better. This is why after market suppliers have been so successful. Don't believe it - just look at the original 1911 or Glocks.

[slowpoke]

If u feel that strongly about it, grab a dremel tool and have at it. You to my knowledge are the FIRST to ever post such a analysis of WHAT KAHR SHOULD DO ACROSS THE ENTIRE LINE. Other than voiding ur warranty, I see no legal ramifications .
I think in California there's some sort of law against modifying handguns built after a certain date. Could be wrong tho....

[MikeyKahr]

I think in California there's some sort of law against modifying handguns built after a certain date. Could be wrong tho....

What isn't there a law against in California!?:confused:

[slowpoke]

Beats me.
The laws in California are a bit strange. If you wake up in the middle of the night and find someone steeling you entertainment center you'd better help him. Because you dam sure don't want him to hurt there back while on your property. If you just shoot him you may go to jail because they “rehabilitate” criminals, and prosecute people who shoot trespassers out there.


Things are much different here in Texas.

[OldLincoln]

As for "Is Kahr open to suggestions?" the answer is not really.

[Longitude Zero]

That pretty much goes for all firearms manufacturers.

[jocko]

That pretty much goes for all firearms manufacturers.

if anyone watched the hour long documentary on the Remingoton 700 and it's problems. one could see that even the designer of the Model 700 told them that the safety on the gun was not satisfactory and he had a design fix for it but back 30+ years ago when this gun was made the cost to redesign the safety to eliminate any chance of the gun going off when the safety is taken off, was a cost back then of 5.5 cents per gun. remington choose to ignore it and has since paid literally millions of dollars in liability claims over guns going bang when the safety was taken off. Now they say a recall of the over 5 million Model 700 remingtons for a fix wuld cost around $75 per gun to do, so there fore it is not going to be done.

sometimes it is allabout the bottom line = bucks..

[dusty10]

I always wanted a remington 700 but after seeing that documentary, I'm not so sure I still do. That being said, any manufacturer of any product is going to have market analysis facts and figures that we average general population folks will not have access to. (darn those prepositions, sorry) Kahr would have to weigh the costs of retooling verses economic benefit/increased profit. I would say they are probably not going to take design advise from the general public and I don't in my business either.

[OldLincoln]

Every once in a while my Ithica 20ga would fire when the breach closed. It was always when I missed a shot so I probably held the trigger down. I only hunted dove and found myself wasting 2 shots to get it on the third, so I often only loaded 1 round. Just as many birds, 1/3 the ammo. Gave it to my son after the service, 'nough killin.

[slowpoke]

I had a 700 BDL back in the 80's and never had a lick of trouble with it. Dam good shootin' gun. Back then they had an adjustable trigger form the factory. That was the gun I learned to reload with. I ran some crazy stuff through that gun, It's a wonder I didn't blow it up. :33:

[jocko]

Every once in a while my Ithica 20ga would fire when the breach closed. It was always when I missed a shot so I probably held the trigger down. I only hunted dove and found myself wasting 2 shots to get it on the third, so I often only loaded 1 round. Just as many birds, 1/3 the ammo. Gave it to my son after the service, 'nough killin.

being an ithaca fan allmy life, they willdo that If u keep ur finger pulled on the trigger u can pump shoot it . Best pump I ever owned, had mine now for 60 years and never broke a part. probalby40,000 rounds out of it. The Ithaca was actually firing like a thomspn, from an open bolt.. The New Ithaca's made today in Ohio have a trigger reset in them now to prevent this...

The remington documentary was not the trigger system fault but the safety system fault. There is no doubt the 700 is or was the best selling bolt action ever made. We sold lots of them mostly the ADL model and never had an issue but there is no doubt this rifle still today has a flaw in the safety system. their hundreds of lawsuits have proven that.

I was amused in the documentary when this lawyer said that in one court case remington had a specialist testify on the stand and while he was giving his testimony on the reliability of the 700 that when he clicked the safety off the gun fired (no round in the gun) but the judge made the courst aware that this gun fired with no finger in the trigger system. I think they settled that law suit for 14 million. Bill Ruger would have never allowed such a rifle to stay in the publics hands without a recall.

[slowpoke]

The remington documentary was not the trigger system fault but the safety system fault. There is no doubt the 700 is or was the best selling bolt action ever made. We sold lots of them mostly the ADL model and never had an issue but there is no doubt this rifle still today has a flaw in the safety system. their hundreds of lawsuits have proven that.



I do remember rumors about the safety back then but I never paid attention to them. I was never affected by the safety because I never used it. I used to keep the chamber clear, and crank one in when I was ready to shoot.
But you are absolutely 100% correct, no gun should be out there with a defective safety.

[garyb]

Sorry for my ignorance but I can't quite figure out what the angle thing is about. I wish you could explain your improvement further so I can determine if your suggestion would benefit my PM40. To me, the PM40 has minimal recoil and I am not surprised about this on such a small, light handgun. I can deal with it quite well and have adapted to this gun very nicely. I can't image complaining about recoil on a 9mm. :confused:
Even if Kahr does not seem interested, I am sincerely interested in the improvement you are pointing out, but do not understand the change you suggest. Please help by explaining further. Thanks.

As for Kahr not responding, I have not experienced this from them. Every time I inquire about something they respond, usually the same day. I recently suggested they come up with a Kahr shooting vest for IDPA (with Kahr logo) in their clothing line and they quickly responded that they like the idea. We will see if they bring something out. They always answer my inquiries promptly. Something sounds out of place, but I don't know what it is. Perhaps you might add the email address you are sending your inquiry, to your address book

Jocko, I agree with you on Ithaca guns. I have a 40 yr old Ithaca feather weight 16 ga pump with the short IC smooth bore slug barrel and a longer smooth bore fixed modified choke barrel. I shot my first deer with it and many more after that. It is amazingly accurate for a smooth bore and would compete with the newer rifled sabot barrels. It is such a nice shotgun and in such good shape, that I have retired it to my gun vault with the hopes of passing it on to one of my grandkids (the one who will love and care for it and not sell it off). I know 16 ga was phased out but is Ithaca still around????

[jocko]

yes and no. The Ithaca that we know of from Ithaca, NY went bankrupt quite a few years ago and actually they even auctioned off most all of there equipment. There is a companty in Ohio now making the Ithaca pump with the Ithaca name. It is top quality to. certainly as good as the ol Ithaca ever was but becuase of their quality and workmanship this is not a mossberg priced shotgun and so I just don't know if they willsurvive. You never see this company's gunsin places like cabela's or Gander Mt. They even make I think a 28 gauge and some super accurate rifled slug barrel shotgun.

The ol 16 gauge original Ithaca's today are highly desirable. I remember when we were in the gun business and we sold hundreds of Model 37's, you could not give away back then a 16 gauge. The ol Model 37 has seen alot of military use to,. Alot of police dept carried them in their arsenals. great company but they just got caught in a industry where price was the bottom line for survival and they being an old company, their equipment was just not up to date...

I b]goose hunted with a Ithaca Mag 10 for years, heavy but ol what quality it was, again theough priced to high for the average joe... We probalby sold a 1000 of the Itaca buckbusters backthen in the 12 and 20 gauge,along with their line of super singles..

[garyb]

I just hope my grandson will realize what I am giving to him. The M37 featherweight (and alot of others) has alot of memories in it. Problem is, free means no value to alot of kids these days. Perhaps the value lies in my heart and memories more than it will in his hands.

Before my father-in-law passed away, he held his old guns close to him to the last year and decided I would get them....a son-in-law (not a son or grandson). I think it was because he realized that I understood what they meant to him and their value:
Original West Point Cadet Springfield trap door converted 50-70 to 45-70
Winchester M1906 Pump takedown .22 (manuf 1907)
Winchester M1892, .25-20 lever saddle ring carbine (manuf 1911)
Winchester 1897, pump 16 ga (manuf 1939)

All proudly displayed on my wall in a custom made display case I made with his name on it...never to be sold (by me).
I know you get the message.

[Bawanna]

I just hope my grandson will realize what I am giving to him. The M37 featherweight (and alot of others) has alot of memories in it. Problem is, free means no value to alot of kids these days. Perhaps the value lies in my heart and memories more than it will in his hands.

Before my father-in-law passed away, he held his old guns close to him to the last year and decided I would get them....a son-in-law (not a son or grandson). I think it was because he realized that I understood what they meant to him and their value:
Original West Point Cadet Springfield trap door converted 50-70 to 45-70
Winchester M1906 Pump takedown .22 (manuf 1907)
Winchester M1892, .25-20 lever saddle ring carbine (manuf 1911)
Winchester 1897, pump 16 ga (manuf 1939)

All proudly displayed on my wall in a custom made display case I made with his name on it...never to be sold (by me).
I know you get the message.

I get your message loud and clear and its a tough row to hoe. Obviously your father in law noted your appreciation for him, the guns, and the history.
I've been the very fortunate and lucky recipient of a few guns who's owners felt I was a better home for them than relations etc.
Your to be commended for creating a place of honor for those guns. I don't have special cases but I do document what history I can get from the original owner and like you the sentimental value is so extroidinarily high that I would never consider selling them for any price.
I did in away pay it forward too. My uncle probably 40 years ago gave me his Model 70 in 243 and his Win 88 in 308, he passed about 3 years ago. He was getting out of guns all together, knew I loved them and didn't want them anywhere near his 3 sons. Since that time 2 of the 3 sons changed course to responsible and good guys, the 3rd is still questionable.
Anyhow they mentioned those rifles awhile back not knowing I owned them and they were in my safe. I spoke to my aunt who had forgotten and was shocked that I still had them.
Long story short, I ended up parting with those two, very regretfully, figuring they were more entitled to them than I.
Funny how guns are such a big part of history and who we are.
I have a win 52 target that will make ya cry, from a man I've only seen twice in my life but he recognized the appreciation. Suppose to be in town this week for a visit to his relatives and hopefully me. That story can wait for another time.

[garyb]

Cool stuff! Can't wait to hear that story sometime Bawanna45cal.
God Bless!

[pm9az]

Gary, my idea is more of a design change compared to a modification. I do not believe that is would be something easily or effectively accomplished at home.

The only change is to the back of the gun, below the slide, where the web of the hand meets the grip / beavertail. There appears to be some room to cut away the grip, which would effectively lower the pistol in the hand. I've marked the before and after area in blue, so that you can see the proposed change.

The angle issue may just be clouding the issue. What I was trying to show with the red and yellow lines was that there would be a slight difference in the angle of the trigger finger before and after the change. Instead of the trigger finger pointing parallel to the barrel, after the change, the trigger finger would be pointing lower than the barrel. Basically the difference would be the difference between a hammer-fired pistol and some of the stiker-fired pistols (XD, Glock). There would be not alteration of the grip to barrel angle.

Hopefully the pics and the explanation make sense. If not, pm me and we can talk about it on skype or phone. Also, if you could give me your contact at Kahr, I'd be interested in talking to them as well.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[jocko]

Most all are gimmicks to get you to buy, I have seen that Lone Wolf set up and it is BUTT UGLY to say the least. Gum makes fully know that t has to look pleasing to the eye or it won't sell, no matter how much they want to write about this or that being the "cats ass" to have.

Hell look already how some on this forum have knocked that new sig 9mm model 290 for its looks..

[garyb]

pm9az,
I just reached out to Kahr to determine if they would recommend an oil or solvent. Eion Pyral responded that they will not endorse any 3rd party vendor....hmmmm. You can try his email address at eion.pryal@kahr.com , but it seems to me that you might not get anywhere with them. I looked at your most recent diagram and understand what you are talking about. Personally I do not feel this would be an improvement (for me) because it would put my hand too close to the slide. Perhaps I would get used to it, but the recoil is not even an issue for me on my PM40. The slide raking my hand might be an issue. I do appreciate you explaining it in more detail for me. Please don't take this as any insult, but there seems to be a concensus that the suggestion is not worthy of modification. However you can give Kahr a try. Perhaps they will agree with you. Thanks for the detail and good luck.

[deuce]

As for "Is Kahr open to suggestions?" the answer is not really.
How about just a flush fit mag. for my CW45?

[jocko]

I remember back when I bought my new Para carry 9, that it came with a very small bottle of TW25 oil lube. Thats what got me onto the TW line even, as I had never heard of them. Course no doubt the TW people offered to throw this in with every Para sold back then, and what did Para really have to loose, they weren't actually endorsing the TW line but again they were to.

I have no doubts kahr and other gun companies have been offered free lubes to put in with every gun sold but for some reason they opt not to do it. I think kahr "listens" just that they don't act. one has to understand that I think some of the kahr inside people feel they truly know more than we "beta" testers do. Just the nature of the beast. Reverse engineering is always easier to do also, so just like these flush floor plates, more than likely when kahr designed their floor plates for certain guns, and then vendor ordered them, they maybe had to order a couple hundred thousand of them and to make a small change which to us seems every easy to do is just not that easy to do, cost wise..

[gunmut]

I have worked as a product design engineer and sales engineer for 30 years; so I have been involved with design and product sales. The design group at a company has a very detailed understanding of the product they have responsiblity for. What may seem like a simple change and with nothing but an upside for the product most of the time will have impact on many other parts and the interaction of those parts with the rest of the product.
There is also the "not invented here" issue that comes in to play....

[Ljutic]

I emailed Kahr w/ no response, & called & left messages w/ no response. I finally talked to a man is sales, who said he "would pass the information upstairs", but didn't seem real alert or responsive. So I thought I would post the idea here and see what the response would be.

Kahr went to a great deal of trouble to lower the bore axis on their pistols, to make them more compact, as well as to lower perceived recoil. Where they seem to be missing out big time is in the lowering of the pistol in the hand. On my PM9, there is about 1/4" or more of space where the tang (proper term?) could be carved out/raised, thereby lowering the pistol in the hand. Several other manufacturers have incorporated this in their designs - the Springfield XD and Ruger SR9/SR40 come immediately to mind.

The PM9 is not bad in the recoil department, but could stand improvement. The little that I shot a friend's PM40 convinced me to buy the PM9. Hopefully some of you could offer feedback, but especially I hope that someone at Kahr will seriously consider this.

I've attached a small edited pic which shows the idea.

Thanks for your attention.

I think Robar will do this grip modification for you as well as adding a beaver tail to the grip. I believe they did it to a P45 and it's not a cheap modification. The attached link has one picture, but the magazine I saw it featured in had many more pictures. Worth a call to Robar to check. If you feel the need and have the dollars to make it so, then Robar would be the place to go. Not sure why the link says Glock, but it will take you to their custom Kahr.

Robar Glock Improvements (http://www.robarguns.com/kahr.html)

[earle8888]

My 2 .5 cents worth; The existing design fits me perfect! I believe CCW should fit the hand so as; with full grip, if the triger finger is extended would be pointing alongside the barrel. This is , IMHO, promote's the best instink/point shooting possible. Thus taking the least time to become proficient. Just draw with a grip like a firm handshake point and shoot! should take less time than to read!!!
Best training for this shooting , again IMHO, is with the CTL grips and UNLOADED WEAPON, and shooting the door knob or such will watching the news.

[jlottmc]

How about just a flush fit mag. for my CW45?

That was just worked out in another thread. http://kahrtalk.com/p-cw-series-pistols/3317-cw45-p45-flush-fit-magazine-updated.html If you're up for a little tool time then that'll get you right as rain.

[garyb]

I agree earle8888 and have the same instinctive feel. It works fine just as it is. Diddo on the training....Could not have said it any better! (I would only add that I suggest the CTL practice when the wifey is gone. It understandably makes mine nervous, so I just wait until I'm alone....maybe that doesn't sound quite right...haha.)