Recoil Spring Info from Kahr

[deadhead1971]

I have a PM9 from June 2009 (IB07xx).

I asked Kahr about the deal with the recoil spring changes that I read about here. I asked if they were still using a #18 but that was not addressed in the response below.

"While there have been some engineering changes in the production of the PM9 this is not an upgrade. The recoil spring has been made longer to accommodate these changes. If you have an older model the spring you currently have is the correct one should this need changing in the future we still have suitable springs."

So I asked would the longer springs work in the older PM9s, and the answer was no. See response below.

"The longer springs will not work in the older guns unless the end is clipped off to allow the slide to lock back. We are about to launch our new website and on there the springs will be differentiated."

[Bawanna]

Wow, this explains alot of recent things that have come up huh? Who knew.

[Seahawk60]

The new springs work fine in my older 2004 PM9. I've posted about this before, but I'll post again here since it's a dedicated thread concerning the issue. Yes, I was NOT able to lock the slide back by hand, but it locked back just fine after the last round when actually firing. 100-150 rounds later and leaving it locked back for a few days allowed the springs to take a set and "break in". I can now lock the slide back with the lever and with an empty mag inserted just fine. This was with two different complete new spring/guide rod assemblies. Kahr sent me the first one and, because of the slide lock issue INITIALLY, I thought maybe they sent me a PM40 assembly or something by mistake. They sent me the second one and it worked the same as the first, but both are functioning perfectly, and have since the first round. Just couldn't manually lock it back at first, but a single range trip and a few days of patience easily cured that before putting it back into my carry rotation.

I put 250 rounds on each spring set and never had a single malfunction. One's in my gun now, which is my current carry, and the other is put up as a spare alongside the old original set, which still works fine, too.

Another nice thing about the new spring/guide rod is the outer spring will not slide easily off the plunger. It takes some twisting force and you have to actually want to get it off, as opposed to it sliding off under its own weight as the original spring would. This is important because, if that spring is installed backwards, you can LOCK up your PM9 hard. Very hard...because the two ends of the spring are different (closed versus open ended). It even mentions this in my PM9's manual. The new set pretty much prevents this since the spring won't just fall off during routine field strip/cleaning.

edited to add: Might not be a bad idea to sticky this thread...

[wyntrout]

This is emphasized a lot in the manual and online here... the closed end to the rear and the open end to the front. On some models, you have to watch that part of the open end doesn't protrude. I guess you could force that and get jammed with part of the spring through that recoil guide hole, but it's pretty tight.
Wynn:)

[Seahawk60]

Never had that problem with the spring poking out the front end, but I'll bet the new design will help Kahr a lot with maintenance/tech issues due to the spring being installed backwards. The new one takes a bit of effort to get off, so it can't just "roll on the floor" by itself and get slapped on backwards now.

[deadhead1971]

This whole thing makes sense now. I remember one guy snipping off the end of the spring. It looks like you have to specify which spring to order (old model / new model).

So I wonder if a new barrel will fit an "old" PM9. Engineering changes can mean a lot of new parts may not be compatible with the old parts (slide, barrel, and springs). The new barrel I got last October was a very tight fit, and I to use a honing stone to file the barrel hood to fit the hole in the top of the slide. This might have been before the new models came out.

[Pender1]

This whole thing makes sense now. I remember one guy snipping off the end of the spring. It looks like you have to specify which spring to order (old model / new model).

So I wonder if a new barrel will fit an "old" PM9. Engineering changes can mean a lot of new parts may not be compatible with the old parts (slide, barrel, and springs). The new barrel I got last October was a very tight fit, and I to use a honing stone to file the barrel hood to fit the hole in the top of the slide. This might have been before the new models came out.

Not supposed to. supposedly everything except the frame and maybe the slide stop pin changed just a little bit

[Seahawk60]

Wonder what the changes were...and why. My "old" PM9 as been extremely reliable. Just about the only stoppages I've had with it are rare stoppages with the factory 7 round extended magazine. Sometimes it fails to lock the slide back on empty and maybe once every few hundred rounds it throws me a nosedive. I'd say it's a weak mag spring, but I hardly ever use it and it's been that way ever since new, so there's no way it's worn out. No biggie as I don't carry that mag and it's good for the range, I guess.

Also, I just compared my old, original guide rod to a new one and they are exactly the same length. The only differences are (old assembly) the inner piston is all silver (new one is metallic black/dark gray) and the rear button that goes up against the front of the barrel lug is about half the diameter.

[deadhead1971]

Just about the only stoppages I've had with it are rare stoppages with the factory 7 round extended magazine.

The last time out I had a nose dive and a slide lock back early, and it was with the 7 rd mag. I changed out the mag springs after this for the first time because springs are cheap, plus I keep the mags compressed 24/7.

[Seahawk60]

The last time out I had a nose dive and a slide lock back early, and it was with the 7 rd mag.

My nosedives are BAD with that 7 rounder. I'm talking the tip of the bullet (round nose FMJ) completely wedged under the bottom of the feed ramp. Forget the "tap, rack, bang" drill. I have to rip (and I mean RIP) the mag out to clear the malfunction. Again, it only does it maybe every 200 rounds or so... Weird... Not that big of a deal, really, and the spring is still pretty darned new, so I haven't bothered to replace it. I have six 6 round mags and every one has been flawless. And, that includes the original one with the steel follower that came with my PM9. The 7 round mag has a polymer follower and I initially thought that was the problem, but my 5 other 6 round mags have polymer followers and have never had a single issue.


plus I keep the mags compressed 24/7.Shouldn't matter from a "wear" standpoint. Cycling the springs from loading/unloading is what wears the springs out. That's why once I verify my carry mags (when new) for reliability, I'll only "shoot them out" once every 6 months or so. I keep a duplicate "range set" of mags for every semi-auto pistol I own, unless it's something I never intend to carry.

[jocko]

Wonder what the changes were...and why. My "old" PM9 as been extremely reliable. Just about the only stoppages I've had with it are rare stoppages with the factory 7 round extended magazine. Sometimes it fails to lock the slide back on empty and maybe once every few hundred rounds it throws me a nosedive. I'd say it's a weak mag spring, but I hardly ever use it and it's been that way ever since new, so there's no way it's worn out. No biggie as I don't carry that mag and it's good for the range, I guess.

Also, I just compared my old, original guide rod to a new one and they are exactly the same length. The only differences are (old assembly) the inner piston is all silver (new one is metallic black/dark gray) and the rear button that goes up against the front of the barrel lug is about half the diameter.



the rear button as we call it, is either 3/8" (old style) or it is 1/2" new style. There is no other size. Why kahr made that change is not for me to say. I can say my original kahr PM9 had the 3/8" button and never gave one issue ever, when I ordered a few replacement sets they came in 1/2" and when asking about it,I was told either is OK but there willbe no more 3/8" made.

I don't shoot my 7 rounder hardly at all. I never liked it fromt he git go. It never failed though but again, it looked butt ugly and I practice at the range exactly the way I carry and that is with a 6 round flush fit mag. I am sure that most of you'se have found there is a differencein shooting the 7 round mag (as far as grip goes) over a 6 round flush fit, ..

someone stated they never use their carry magazine hardly at all once proven reliable I do feel that is perfectly OK to do also but I would at least empty those defense rounds by shooting them out of the magazine etc at least once a month, just to keep fresh ammo for defense carry at all times.

[Seahawk60]

someone stated they never use their carry magazine hardly at all once proven reliable I do feel that is perfectly OK to do also but I would at least empty those defense rounds by shooting them out of the magazine etc at least once a month, just to keep fresh ammo for defense carry at all times.

That "someone" would have been me. Shooting up defensive carry ammo to keep it "fresh" at least once a month is WAY too often, unless you just *want* to do it for some reason. And, what do you mean by "fresh"? What about the rest of the box(es) bought at the same time? 18+1 is the max carry load out for me with my PM9 and I buy my carry ammo in 50 round boxes. If you mean "fresh" as in "dirty mags", then that's a different issue. I do inspect them from time to time and blow them out with canned "computer/keyboard" compressed air.

The stuff is expensive, often hard to find, and it's completely unnecessary. Once every 6 months or so is MORE than enough and, a lot of times, I go much longer than that. Been doing this for many, many years and never had a single factory defensive hollow point type round fail and some loaded mags have gone FAR beyond 6 months. Some mags stayed fully loaded (after 6+ months of carry) for years when I was stationed overseas and everything was in storage. I did this on purpose as a "test" and everything fired just fine when I got back.

That "test" was with single and double stack magazines of various manufacture. Didn't have my PM9 prior to that, but I have no doubt it will be just fine firing 6+ month "old" carry ammo. Been doing it since 2004 and never had a problem with my PM9 carry mags and defensive ammo. The "other" 3 six rounders get all the range abuse. ;)

[jocko]

It's ok to do what ever you please. What I stated is certanly not gospel. My point of the defense ammoo being shot out periodically is that in a box sitting there new, It is not near any contaminats such as possable any lube in your gun possably getting in the breech area and possably behind the primer pocket. It does happen u know, some people "over" lube a gun and oil will run easily even though you can wipe it down with a rag, if oil is there is will go somewhere.

If 6 months floats ur boat, no problem from me. I would not think shooting 6+1 rounds out of a defense magazine once a month or so, would make or break anyone, but again it is shooters choice.

[Seahawk60]

Ok, whatever... But, make that 19 rounds of carry ammo for me with the two spare carry mags. I've NEVER had a round fail to fire because of "over oiling" the gun. You'd really have to try HARD to cause a malfunction like that. :eek:

I even load my carry mag "dirty" since it's my carry gun...and what I carry home from the range after shooting plinking ammo and before cleaning it. Again, NEVER had a problem in many, many years with a round failing to go "bang". I do wipe it off well, though, before re-chambering after I finish cleaning it.

Here's a question... Anyone else "shoot out" their carry HP defensive rounds every month for "rotation"? Or think that's entirely too excessive?

[Bawanna]

Lets not turn this into a battlefield over shooting out carry ammo. As Jocko suggested there is no set rule to adhere to in this respect.
I shoot out my carry ammo but more in line with Seahawk in the 6 month or so range and I'd not be too concerned going much longer than that.
I've also never ever replaced a recoil spring, or a mag spring:eek:
I've told the story of my duffle bag Colt 1911 that was fully loaded since 1943 and it emptied flawlessly after all those many years.
It's as Jocko always says, kind of a whatever floats your boat kind of deal.
I'd do it much more often, (I got a free full case of Gold Dot probably a life time supply for me and I shot it all up at the range. I hate myself for doing that, just wasn't thinking. Now I'm counting rounds trying not to run out.) but I squander away so much money on stuff that I'm perpetually poor. I do rotate mags occasionally even though I don't think it's needed. I clean even if they aren't shot couple times a year.
Now you two pucker up and kiss the olive branch and lets all get along.

[Seahawk60]

I've also never ever replaced a recoil spring, or a mag spring:eek:

:eek: is right!

You need to shoot more...a lot more... Or, you've been *very* lucky...so far... ;)


Now you two pucker up and kiss the olive branch and lets all get along.Deal! But, only if Jocko can get a single post of more than a sentence or two correct with zero misspellings, typos, grammatical errors, etc. :eek::eek::eek: :D

[jocko]

no problem from me bawanna, I am not arguing with the fella. I stated my opinion I think he wants to make a test case out of it and personally I don't care one way or the other. everyone has their own prep system and if it works ok for one, then indeed stick with it. I guess also for me anyhow I want to shoot the defense stuff I carry for reasons of there is more recoil in my corbon dpx rounds or gold dots than my standard fmj range ammo. Don't u mess with my little mind bawanna or I will sneak up on u and flatten both of ur tires.

We owned a goodyear tire business (family) for 69 years and a few times in my 40 +years there I would get a customer to come in and ask if I would change "the air" in their tires as it has been in there for over a year. Maybe they heard me telling someone back then they should shoot their defense magazine ammo once a month--u think????
Old habits die slowly..

[jocko]

seahawk:Deal! But, only if Jocko can get a single post of more than a sentence or two correct with zero misspellings, typos, grammatical errors, etc.

don't hold your breath on that!!!

[Bawanna]

I'm truly blessed that I have several guns to spread that shooting out over. I've had very very few issues with any of them. I'm also truly blessed to finally have a progressive loader as I've been shooting about 700 rounds or so ever 6 weeks or so. Between me and my son. He broke my new press on the third pull and refuses to touch it again since he thinks he's cursed. He has no concept of each bullet and the money and effort that went into it.
He just loves to shoot and who can blame him. A semi insane dad who supplies free ammo and even cleans his guns when we get home. He'll pay when in a few years when I'm living with him and he has to empty my drool cup.

[Bawanna]

seahawk:Deal! But, only if Jocko can get a single post of more than a sentence or two correct with zero misspellings, typos, grammatical errors, etc.

don't hold your breath on that!!!

I gotta agree on this one. I don't see this happening anytime soon. Just look at it as a challenge to figure out what he's really saying. It also allows some room for interpretation, you can read it more than one way.
I have alot of cops here that write the same way. Actually reading post here helps me translate some of their writing too.

Oh and I put foam inserts in my tires so you can't pop em. Course there's nothing to prevent ya from bustin out a few spokes.
I coached baseball a few years ago and ended the season with only about 9 left on one side. Wasn't pretty, stopping balls with my wheel.

[OldLincoln]

He'll pay when in a few years when I'm living with him and he has to empty my drool cup.I doubt it's your DROOL cup he's concerned about!

[wyntrout]

Hmmm.... Depends.... :D

Wynn:)

[earle8888]

Answer to Seahawk; I routinely empty one of my carry mags down range, at least once a month. I shoot more than 3 times per week. I use similar weight/velocity ammo for practice and different bullet (s) for carry. When I was training, waaaaay back when, and not paying for ammo, training REQUIRED exact same ammo for weekly training as carry ammo.

[Seahawk60]

Answer to Seahawk; I routinely empty one of my carry mags down range, at least once a month.

Do you feel that's absolutely necessary? Or do you do it out of habit and/or just because you *want* to? Be honest, please...

[deadhead1971]

any new developments on this?

[garyb]

I reached out to Kahr the last couple of days. They acknowledged that they have 2 different springs. One for the new model with the beveled slide and one for the old model. If owners contact them, they will advise you of the proper spring to order. They are were silent on my question regarding their prior advice to cut the springs. No answer. They did say that if you receive the incorrect spring they will send out the correct spring ASAP. They have not updated their web site yet. That's all the info I could get out of them so far.

[earle8888]

Seahawk60 (http://kahrtalk.com/member.php?u=3253) http://kahrtalk.com/images/tigra/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Senior Member


Just old habit I guess