p380 Feed problem

[TominCA]

Hi, I'm new to this forum and just bought my first Kahr, a p380. I really like this little pistol! But after about 175 rounds it is giving me fits. The problem is feeding and I was wondering if anyone has had similar feeding difficulty and found the "cure".

When I chamber a round (by releasing the slide lock or pulling the slide back) about 20% of the time the feeding round will not chamber. At 175 rounds it is not improving at all.

When loading a cartridge by firing the gun the same problem ocuurs and the slide will not close completely. Usually it stops about 1/4 inch from battery, but sometimes it is so close to battery that I actually get a light, non firing, firing pin strike.

When I look at this closely it appears that the problem is related to the extractor / breech face. When the slide moves forward the cartridge hits the feed ramp, but it does not "tilt upwards" as much as it would in, say, my 45 acp. It appears that the cartridge is designed to stay relatively horizontal and slide upward on the breech face while fitting itself under the extractor as it moves forward towards the chamber.

It apears that the cartridge rim is impeded in someway and because of this it "tilts too much as the nose rides up the ramp while the rim is jammed or overly tensioned back by the breech face / extractor. By the time thet the rear of the cartridge gets enough energy to move up it has alrady used up too much of the slides energy in overcoming the friction at the breechface / extractor and the extra effort needed to push against the rising cartridge nose pushing agains the top of the chamber, resulting in not enough momentum remaining to send the slide all the way forward and put the pistol fully into battery.

I don't know if I'm right or not - but in reading this forum a little I see that others have had a similar problem. But how did it get fixed?

I really like this little pistol! I don't "carry" so its just a toy - but I would like it to be more reliable than 20 to 25% malfunction.

[jocko]

first thing I would do is call kahr and talk to them about it and see if they feel a new recoil spirng might help. Even though your gun is new, sometimes springs are not what they are to

did you do any of the PROPPER PREPPING OF YOUR NEW KAHR in the tech section. this also might help some to. for sure load the gun using the slide lock lever. the slide not coming back into full battery could indicate a problem also that more rounds down range will not solve. try changing to a different brand of ammo to see if it still does the same thing. You need to eliminate some of the possables so that when you talk to kahr you can tellthem what you have done with no success.

For me to say it just sounds like the gun has not mated up properly yet is just a SWAG to (scientific wild ass guess) but some guns take longer to mate up. Shoot fmj ammo for sure, don't mess with the expensive defense stuff untilthe gun is running right.

Do go to the thread: PROPPER PREPPING OF YOUR NEW KAHR. It can help u alot.

If allthis fails, indeed give kahr a calland ask themt o issue a pre paid pick up of your gun.

You sound like you know what your talking about and that you have studied your P380 for its quirks.

the sad thing is that it just might hav eot go back to kahr to get right, but if it was mine, I would do alittle more TLC to it and give it another change .

[Jim K]

Check your extractor for burrs or other defects that will impede the cartridge from slippiing under the extractor. An extractor that is too tight will also cause this problem. The recoil spring will not have enough energy stored to push the cartridge into battery if this is the case.

Springs, especially the small, tight wound ones can vary in tension and spring rates. I think Kahr will send you new springs if you explain the problem. Their CS is good. If that does not work then send it back. I hope they fix it first time back.

I wonder if the folks at Kahr ever heard of a spring tensiometer. I guess it does not matter if there is no QC.

Good luck, Jim K

[TominCA]

Thanks Jim K and Jocko - Yesterday I picked up some 380 dummy rounds and took them home to play with the p380. The fit under the extractor was very tight. The tooth of the extractor contacted the case on the "slope" above the actual rim (sorry don't know the proper term), The extractor tooth was polished but also knife sharp and appeared to be overly long and overly tensioned. That little shell had to really be jammed in there - It obviously is too much tension for the tiny recoil springs to overcome.

I filed down and then polished the tooth of the extractor to give it less pressure and opened up the bottom angle a little to give the cartridge a little more rise before the tension gets heavy. I also polished up the opposite side of the slide where the cartridge rim jams against as it rises and also polished the chamber (as long as the dremel was out) The pistol now feeds the dummy rounds much better - But there is still a lot of tension on the extractor. I think it will still have some failure to go into battery.

The extractor seemed tight in the slide slot and I worked it a few dozen times and it seemed to loosen up a bit. It also appears that the extractor spring is putting too much pressure on the extractor. I was tempted to pull the extractor assembly and polish everything and knock a little off of the compression spring but decided to test what I have done at the range before introducing more variables. I'll go to the range next week if I have time and see if reducing the size of the extractor tooth helps - If not at least the parts are easily replaced!

One last note - I compared several brands of 380 that I have lying around - I noticed that there was a lot of variation in the length and slope of the taper from the case to the rim (again, I'm sorry I don't know what this is called) This would hypothetically explain the numerous posts on this forum about, "my p308 doesn't fieed such and such ammo good while another brand does". My pistol malfunctioned the same way with everything I had - but I noticed that it malfunctioned LESS with the ammunition which allowed the extractor to go in further - thus reducing tension. The custom tuned (and overly tensioned?) extractor may be the variable that determines what feeds and what does not. The feed design of the pistol is obviously very tolerant of bullet profile - but very sensitive to cartridge rim configuration. I'll report back after the next try at the range.

[Bawanna]

It wouldn't hurt to take that extractor assembly apart and just look it over, clean and lube a bit. I would not change anything more as you said and introduce more variables. I'm surprised you accomplished what you did without removing it.
It's not difficult, there a thread I believe in the tech section that walks you thru it. It could be it's just hanging up a bit in the channel. I know in my PM45 the extractor pieces were very tight, just removing them and putting them back in freed things us some. It was working, I didn't cure anything but it certainly didn't hurt anything either.
There's generally no need to take that apart with the clean out holes but once in awhile its probably not a bad idea. Kind of enlightening to see how it all works inside there also.

[Jim K]

Tom,

Please be careful about changing the extractor geometry because you may be trading extraction problems for feed problems. You can order some spares from Kahr in case you mess up an extractor. The parts are inexpensive and Kahr supports their product well.

One last thing. I do NOT advise clipping extractor spring coils to lower tension. Clipping coils does lower the spring tension but raises the spring Rate. Think of it as tension X spread over fewer coils. It is better to shorten whatever is pressing against the spring.

Try some new parts first. They are inexpensive. It is possible something is just a bit out of tolerance.

This may be a PITA now but when you get your pistol working you'll have a sense of satisfaction. Hang in there.

Jim K

[nav1974]

I had same feeding problem with my 380 after about 250 rounds.Kahr sent new recoil spring and so far problem solved.New spring was about 1/4 inch longer so original must have been weak.

[kpm9]

Put some more rounds down range. Work that slide and don't baby it and don't worry too much about the small details. Sounds like your riding the slide to determine if there are geometry issues? That will introduce all kinds of unknown variables since speed/force/weight of slide going into battery are considered in the design.

Mine has been almost 100%. I had 1 stove pipe, due to out of spec ammo.
Other than that, I can rack the slide with a full mag and it loads every time, or use the slide lock.

[TominCA]

After reading Bawana45's post (above) and considering that the pistol, although better, still did not hand cycle 100%, (and also having some time on my hands) I decided to pull the extractor and look at what was happening before testing it at the range.

I made the little coat hanger C-clamp and pulled the assembly. After cleaning everything with CLP I used a very hard Arkansas stone to smooth the flat surfaces of the extractor and some 600 paper to hit other areas including the slot for the extractor and the pins. I also used the stone to knock off corners a bit.

While I was doing this I noticed that the extractor coil spring was deformed a bit as if it had been bent too much or stretched at some time when it was out of the gun. I am not sure if this was damage, or if it was intentional as it is on the safey detent pin spring on the 1911 safety assembly. Anyhow, I cut a coil off of the spring and the put it all back together. Now it functions perfectly by hand. I'll run a test next week with several brands of ammo and report back.

[TominCA]

It didn't work! I took the pistol to the range today, and although it chambered my dummy rounds it still had fits with the real stuff. In my original session it would sometimes stop about 1/4" out of battery and also sometimes appear to go into battery but strike lightly and fail to ignite. Now it goes into what appears to be battery every time it malfunctions but, gives the cartridge a light firing pin strike and does not fire. After about 400 rounds I can actually guess pretty good when this will happen by the "feel" of the slide return. I fired four types of ammo. It still fails to fire just as often. Below are the first 64 four shots out of a clean gun:

Winchester white box, 95g FMJ
Blazer Brass 95g FMJ
Rem UMC 95g FMJ
Fiocci HP

My initial test out of a clean gun was 64 rounds (2 mags of 5 and 1 mag of 6 in rotation) Out of that test I had 13 failures to go into battery, all identical, and one stovepipe. Interestingly the Fiocci was the best (1 out of 16) and the Rem the worst (7 out of 16)

I continued shooting hoping to break it in some more and fired a total of about 170 rounds bringing the pistol total up to about 400. The rate and type of failure remained the same. I called Kahr, explained the problem and got an RA number. I will report back when the pistol is returned.

[jocko]

your doing the right think now, you did all u could to make it right. . Light strikes could be a bad trigger bar or a slide that looks in battery but is not and it is all about timing.

I would not be surprised to see it come back with a new slide, More than likely the trigger bar is OK fromwhat you are describing is wrong.

Kahr IMo willnot spend alot of time on the gun trying to fix what is there, they will just start to replce parts that they know inadvance could be the issue and my bet the firs thing replaced will be the slide. Keep us informed.

PM sent.

[Bawanna]

Dang it, I was ready to go sit by the mail box and wait for my gold star. I really thought you were onto something inside that extractor channel.
It's sad that it has to go back but at this point, not many other options. Hopefully they'll be wicked quick getting it back but more importantly send it back with a perfect bill of health.
The stricker spring look good when you were inside there? They'll no doubt put a recoil spring in it although unless it was just bad it isn't near ready for one yet.
Do keep us posted and let us know what the repair description reads like.

[TominCA]

Thanks guys - Its sitting by the offce door waiting for UPS to pick it up!

[erice303]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but Ill be sending in my p380 later today. Should I sent it in with the factory case, and my extra magazines?

[jocko]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but Ill be sending in my p380 later today. Should I sent it in with the factory case, and my extra magazines?

send it allin, who knows magazines give issues, solet them have it all back to check out right

[TominCA]

When I sent mine they asked for everything, mags and case, I didn't have the case with me - so I just used a box and padded the stuff up good. Their only concern was keeping the gun from being damaged in shipment. The web site says UPS Air or Fed Ex overnight - I used UPS because I can send from my company and pay for it at the end of the month (good company!) so I spent $27 to have it sent 2 day air from CA to Mass. So far $27 plus 8 boxes of 380 -

[TominCA]

Just spoke to Kahr. Pretty much bad news and more bad news - The pistol had a crack in the frame at the hammer pin - which was why it would not fire consistently. I also think the extractor was much too tight - which I cured by relieving the face slightly and then cutting a coil off of the spring. After that it would always chamber but still not fire 25% of the time. I attributed that to being slightly out of battery. Apparently it was caused by the crack. They had built a new gun (new slide, new frame) and were ready to send it back - but then a problem arose:

This Kahr was not CA legal (I live in California and it must have a loaded chamber indicator and a magazine disconnect) So they can't send it back. Somehow the dealer got one that was not CA legal. I had just bought it about a month ago from a reputable local dealer???! So we finally got it resolved that I will get the original cracked frame back all re-assembled, Then I take it back to the dealer and the dealer will return it to the distributor, who will then send a CA legal gun when they are ready (supposed to be soon). All in all, this didn't go well. Kahr was good on the repair portion but not much else went right and the pistol must have had the crack and the 25% misfire rate right from the beginning and was shipped in bad condition.

It will be a while before I get a replacement - So I will end this thread here.

[jocko]

not good news to hear, ur probalby right to, this gun was made bad from day #1 and just got shipped out. a shame u have to wait though, Indeed you won't see a new P380 for many months either..

My question is though, that being the frame is bad and that is where the serial number is at and kahr would have to destroy that frame along witht he serial number, why cannot kahr just reissue toyou a new complaint frome with a new serial number and then sent to your ffl dealer to do the transfer..

[Bawanna]

I don't think there is a compliant one yet is there. Isn't that the main reason for the wait? The mag disconnect is in the frame, the loaded chamber indicator seems like would just be different parts in the slide.
I think they are just waiting for a compliant one to be produced. That's the way I read it anyhow.
I'd just move but we've already chewed that one several times.

[jocko]

i think kahr shows a 3890 complaint, not sure now if kthey ae shipping but I would assume if they show it, that they shouldbe shipping..

after looking I see it says shipping later in 2010, I would say we are getting into the "later season". Don't u hate it when a company offers a new model and they don't have it in production yet...

sounds to ke like TOM IN CA is basicaly screwed. If he could, , I would see if the dealer who sold him this defaulted gun, would just refund him and let him move on and later on if and when the complaint 380 comes due, to make his decision. course this would be what I wold call a good dealer to, in doing the right thing. Certainly not TomCa in fault and partially tyhe dealers fault for selling a gun tha the should have know was not complaint, but all of this is debateable...It certainly wold pi-s me off big time. Here this fella is out all this money and ahs a bad gun that now he has to kiss ass with someone to even get a shot back at his money and if that doesn't work, theh he has to eat cr-p and wait an untold months upon months to get what he paid for in the first place..

[Bawanna]

Gotta agree with ya, wish I could help fix it but don't see how.

I want ya to go wash your mouth out with soap, your getting kind of gutter talk lately. I thought you were imported there for awhile with all the fook this and fook that.
I do kind of like it when you talk gutter though.

[jocko]

Gotta agree with ya, wish I could help fix it but don't see how.

I want ya to go wash your mouth out with soap, your getting kind of gutter talk lately. I thought you were imported there for awhile with all the fook this and fook that.
I do kind of like it when you talk gutter though.

I use listerine, and that stuff pi-ses me off even more:yo:

but I will try to do better bawanna, but NO PROMISES. Us harley riders u know have our own lingo. and until you have dumped your bike in 500 gallons of ice cream, then one cannot walk in my shoes or should I say slide in my shoes:popcorn:

[Bawanna]

My bad! I forgot the biker language and the rights of bikerhood with the ice cream and all. I apologize, please carry on and forget I even mentioned it.

[klink4]

I just picked up the P380 and threw 150 rounds down range. Mine functioned 100% but what I did find is that the flat tip of Winchester white box was a little harder feed the first round. So far I'm please

[jlottmc]

I use listerine, and that stuff pi-ses me off even more:yo:

but I will try to do better bawanna, but NO PROMISES. Us harley riders u know have our own lingo. and until you have dumped your bike in 500 gallons of ice cream, then one cannot walk in my shoes or should I say slide in my shoes:popcorn:


Hey I've ridden many many miles and laid a couple down as well. You got me beat with the ice cream though. I did pick up a hail stone the size of a quarter on one of our freak thunderstorms that come out of nowhere once. That hurt like a sumbitch, broke two fingers as well. The last time I laid one down I broke my neck and spent six months in a halo (no there wasn't any more nerve damage than some swelling thankfully), that close enough to your shoes?

[wyntrout]

That hail can get big in Texas. I was stationed at San Angelo late '67 when we had SOFTBALL-sized hail. I was on the second floor of our barracks and heard the unusual thumps. Looked out the window and it was raining large snowballs... but solid ice FOUR inches or more in diameter!
You were "lucky" it wasn't bigger. I bought a buddy's '58 Chevy Impala that I had watched get clobbered. It was very sturdy sheet metal back then... made relatively small dents, unlike the newer cars.
Wynn:D

[jocko]

[QUOTE=jlottmc;41285]Hey I've ridden many many miles and laid a couple down as well. You got me beat with the ice cream though. I did pick up a hail stone the size of a quarter on one of our freak thunderstorms that come out of nowhere once. That hurt like a sumbitch, broke two fingers as well. The last time I laid one down I broke my neck and spent six months in a halo (noHow


How about this one. About 8 years ago while riding through the wildlife loop at custer national park during Sturgis week, we got caught on one hell ious hail storm, so bad that we parked our bikes and ran for cover. My problem was that I parked my bike on a black toped incline and while sitting under a big tiree, i seen my bike slowly but surely slide down the incline about 20 feet before topping over and just literalyrtearing my left side of the bike up. Over $1500 in damage, due to stupidity. the other bikes that were parked on more level ground suffered a few broken mirrors but no paint damage. sturgis as u know can be one day in the 90" and 10 minutes later a flash flood or a hail storm out of now where
alot depends on which side of the mountains ur on at the time. But u know what, I went back for the next 6 years..:)

[TominCA]

I'm Baaaack - and so is a new P380 (this time with matte silver slide) For those of you who may be curious as to how the failure to feed / crack fram turned out - the adventure continues. To Summarize:

1) Bought a P380 which would FTF about 25% of the time, gave up at 400 rounds
2) Returned to Kahr where they discovered a cracked frame
3) Frame was replaced BUT this model had been released to California by mistake so they could not send the gun back unless I was a LEO.
4) Gun stays at Kahr and the distributor "owes me one" when the CA versions are ready.
5) on March 1st a brand new CA version arrives at the gun shop with my name on it.
6) Since the SSN is different I have to do a transfer and wait 10 days.

I'm in the 10 day period now but thought those of you who were kind enough to reply to my original posts last year would like to know how it turned out. When I get the pistol I will break it in with Federal and Winchester hardball (700 rounds waiting to go!) and let you know hte results.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions and interest from you all.

Tom

[rogerthedodger]

Hey TominCA, just read about all your probs and the new P380 in "10 day cool off period" here in Kalifornia. Want to hear about the new gun range report. I have a Kali compliant P380 in 10 day jail as well. Good luck.
Roger

[TominCA]

I went to the range today to try the new P380. First the differences:

The CA version has a magazine disconnect and a loaded chamber indicator and a silver colored slide.

I took the gun apart and cleaned and oiled it last night. Everything looked fine . It was quite dirty and the recoil spring appeared to be stiffer than the first one I had.

At the range things did not go well. I put 90 rounds throug it and it stove piped or malfunctioned in some way about 1 out of every 5 rounds. My ammunition was Winchester white box. Federal red box and Remington green box (only 5 of these Remingtons)

To make sure it was not something I was doing I asked my friend to shoot it also - and he had exactly the same problem(s).

So what was wrong? I don't know and quite frankly I'm a little discouraged with Kahr products so I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time thinking about it - if it doesn't get better by 200 rounds it goes back to the dealer, but here is my take on it:

It appeared that the pistol was not cycling fully. The stove pipe is an indication of this and sometimes it would stovepipe and also partially feed a round (sort of like a double feed) except the rim of the chambered round would not be under the extractor. You have to lock the slide back (which drops the stove pipe) , drop the mag and then dump the round out of the chamber. Then you reload from scratch and go back to shooting. I also had two failures to go into battery fully.

During the session - which was about 1 hour - I tried oiling the gun - which did not make any difference. Finally I put a drop of oil directly into the chamber and got 10 shots straight without a jam! It did this twice! which makes me think there could be a chamber issue of some sort.

Anyhow, I had intended to put 100 rounds through it but the little pistol was so annoying to shoot and many of the jams so difficult to clear, that I gave up in frustration at 90 rounds. The instructions say don't trust it until 200 rounds - but at this rate I do not think it will be functional at 200. Perhaps it is just too small and will never be even reasonably reliable.

I'll report back on the rest of the tests as I go up to 200 rounds next week or the week after.

Tom

[jocko]

polish the chamber, u can't hurt it... but u sure can help it alot.

[TominCA]

Thanks Jocko - I field stripped it and following your advice polished the chamber - The feed ramp was already polished and the chamber did not really look rough at all - but it polished up nicely.

In looking over the pistol I have no idea why a drop of oil directly into the chamber would allow it to function for 10 rounds! Even before I cleaned the barrel I could easily drop a cartridge in the "dirty" chamber and it was a loose fit.

A few things I noticed in comparison to the first P380 which was returned: Someone had worked on this pistols extractor and given it a shape - my first one had no work done on it. The extractor still gripped the rim VERY tightly - but not as tightly as the first pistol. The tension is much more than a properly tuned 1911. I don't know what it should be but it seems tight.

The recoil springs are so long it is actually a little difficult to re-assemble the pistol after field stripping. While firing it I noticed most of my empties were piling up next to me on the range bench. This, combined with all of the stovepipes could indicate heavy recoil springs or weak ammo. Since I had tested with two name brands of ammo it points to the springs.

Anyhow I cleaned it uo - threw the frame, slide and barrel in the sonic cleaner and then went over some rough spots on the forward rails (the metal rails in the dust cover) with a few passes of 400 emery paper. I silicone sprayed the frame and added a little oil on the metal parts and then oiled the slide with Rem Oil. To try something new I put a light coating of Tetra grease on anything plastic or metal that even looked like a rail. It works well on my AR's so why not give it a try!


When cleaning it I found a few pieces of metal flakes from the slide imbedded in the plastic frame - they were small but must have come off while firing - I carefully scraped them off and found a few "feathers" hanging on the plastic frame rails which I pulled off. I doubt if these had any effect.

After these efforts the slide does seem to work with less resistance.

I'll try to get a range sesson on Tuesday and will report back

[nelly]

I'm also a new 380 owner,with almost the same problems!! I called CS and he issued me a Return Auth #.I was told that I have to Pay the return Fed Ex to them for the repairs..It cost me $69.00!!! I was having FTF's-FTE's,and it would go into battery when it chose to,the slide release lever would sometimes work & sometimes not.I used 4 different types of ammo and pre prepped the pistol before I fired it.They just returned to me with these notes-REPLACED BARREL-REPLACED RECOIL SPRINGS-REPLACED SLIDE STOP SPRING-LUBED, SHOT,GOOD.I should NEVER have been charged postage to return this.THIS GUN NEVER SHOULD HAVE LEFT THE FACTORY WITH THESE PROBLEMS!! I am going to shoot it tomorrow.I will post my results.NO CONFIDENCE IN THIS GUN OR THE COMPANY.

[jocko]

neilly, definitely you shouldnot have ha dto pay to send it back. pure b.s. imo, TO LATE now but you should have insisted and even taken it higher up. Indeed it is there gun, they made it and it doesn't work, That woulod piss me off to.hame u did not come here first as we could have helped you avoid that money part...

[onegun]

They told me "shipping is not covered by the warranty" on my brand new P380. I pitched such a conniption that they did email me the FEDEX return shipping label. If it doesn't work when it gets back it's gone. I still love my K9 but I'm thinking it's my last Kahr.

[nelly]

This might be my last Kahr.I have never had shipping charges for a brand new gun to have factory repairs done.I have had business with Les Baer,Bill Wilson & others and never had this kind of ARROGANCE displayed. I should have gotten angrier and pushed the issue.I will do some range time Tommorow and see if they repaired everything.I just want some enjoyable range time with no drama.The cost of 380 and range time is too expensive .

[jocko]

u should not have to do that but also glad u did. I wonder how they would feel if it was reversed on them. It's b.s. for them to try to bluff a person IMO. I know some companies say in their warranty that they do not pay to send it back. that is not right but also it is there for all to see to. Kahr does not state that. It is frustraing. and I have said many times, if your not happyt with a product peddle it, no matter it be a car, truck, appliance or GUN. .

[TominCA]

I went back to the range with the cleaned up gun (see earlier post) - rounds 91 through 210 were actually a little better - the failure rate had fallen from 20% to about 12% - but it was a consistent 12% - just as bad at the 210th round as it was at the 91st. Just about every failure involved a stovepipe with / or with out an underlying jam - there was one failure to go into battery and one premature slide lockback.

I used 5 different types of amunition:

Extreme shock 70 grain enchanced penetration
Federal 90 grain hollowpoint
Federal Red box (American) 95 gr fmj
Winchester white box - (95gr fmj flat nose brass enclosed base)
Remington (95 gr fmj)

The extreme shock was best with only 1 failure in 12 rounds ( I didn't have much of it so only 12 rounds for this one)

The rest failed pretty evenly at around 12%

My conclusion to send it back is based upon the following:

1) whatever I did in cleaning it up helped reduce the failure rate to from 20% to 12% but continuing to shoot it did not appear to be reducing it further.

2) I'm mad - I paid $649 for this gun, which is basically about as sophisticated as a $200 exterior door latchset. Now I'm on my second one and it still doesn't work. I'm not responsible for making this thing work right and I'm not going to tolerate this miserable performance, and I'm not going to put more time, effort or money into making it do what it should have done right out of the box.

I got my RA number a few minutes ago (yeah, I whimped and didn't fight for a return authorization) I'll report back in a few weeks when the "fixed" pistol comes back.

Thanks again to everyone for all of their help, support and suggestions both in the forum and by private message.

Tom in CA

[TominCA]

The factory just sent my P380 back with less than one week turn around (CA to MA) including shipping time!

The problem was failure to eject (down to about 12% after 210 rounds - see earlier posts)

The Tech Work Sheet Says:

Polished Ejector, feed ramp. Replaced Extractor, Lubed, Test Fired Good

In reading and reacting to the tech sheet;

The ramp was aready mirror polished when I got the gun so it couldnt get any better.

I don't get the part about polishing the ejector - perhaps it can cause friction where it passes through the slide during recoil? If so it could allow the slide to operate more freely without reducing spring force. This seems to be the only repair directly related to ejecting.

As for the extractor, I would have guessed that to be the reason for a failure to feed - not the failure to eject with this P380, but the design of the extractor seems to have critical tolerances and function so who knows, it could be that the next round is pressing under the extractor before the fired case has ejected.

Anyhow tomorrow I have lunch time free and I also have some new AA5 45 Auto loads I want to try - so I'll give it a try and report back!

Tom in CA

[jocko]

proof will be in the puddin at tomorrow's shoot. good luck, Haven't a clue about this ejector stuff. I guess a polish on the ejector surely can't hurt anything. My bet it was extractor related and they just do a certain routine on all guns retured for ur issues and if they don't work, then they proceed further.. agree on the feed ramp. not sure they can do much better than what they are already coming to us now. I think this is one thing that kahr has learned in the past, 10 seconds spent more polishing the feed ramp is many dollars saved down the road... U can't knock their service though, it is speedy fast, now lets cross our fingers that it will do what it is desinged to do...

[TominCA]

Took the P380 to the range with every brand of ammo I could find (I have other 380's so that wans't hard to do)

Here is how I tested:

The pistol appeared clean but was not disassembled or cleaned.

All shots were from mags of 6 with the first round loaded by slide release.
.
The brands were fired in rough rotation to compensate for fouling.

If an ammunition (such as Winchester or Prvi) was obviously not suitable it was eliminated.

If a round "Jammed" the action the mag was dropped, the round reloaded in the mag and the magazine finished.

There were no failures attributable to ammunition.

KEY: SP = Comon Stove Pipe
FtF = Failure to feed which is an empty case lying on top of a round which is trying to feed from the mag. Normally this is not under the extractor and locks up the gun.

No other failures are listed because this pistol doesn't do them.

From the table below you can see that Federal American (red box) and Reminington FMJ appeared to function with good reliability. The one Federal failure was in the first magazine of the test and it did not fail after that. The Remington was a limited sample but also ran well.

Why these two brands? I don't know but they appeared to have more power than the others - or perhaps faster burning powder? Who knows. I don't think this limited test qualifies the pistol as a good one - but at least it appears to shoot something reliably. I'll run another 100 rounds or so through it and report back - probably in a few weeks.

Federal 95 FMJ - 42 rounds, 1 SP
Winchester Silver tip - 6 founds, 1 FtF
Winchester 95 # 4206 - 12 rounds 3 FtF
Remington 95 FMJ 18 rounds, no failure
Fiocchi 85 HP - 12 rounds, 2 FtF
Prvi Partisan 94 FMJ - 6 rouunds 2 FTF




Federal American and Remington appear to function properly. Note that firing foreign ammo will void your warranty - I did it anyhow because I'm sick of sending these pistols back. Note that Fiocchi is assembled in Missouri so is probably not foreign. Prvi certainly is but appears to be weak or at least erratic in power level (this is just a guess)

Tom in CA

[jocko]

I would not consider it good to go either, but I would not give it a through cleaning and lubing and then pick a few brands of ammo that u like and are availalbe and retest..

definitely not telling u anything u don't know either but whenone shoots a 100 rounds out of P380 thinhgs can just change. shooter gets alittle tired and doesn't know it, grip changes a tad, issue come from that. doucument wen the round count brings these issues might tell you something to. I wouldnot consider that gun good togo. Close but no bannana..

[toptog]

Is the Winchester 95 # 4206 the flat nosed FMJ that they sell in Walmart? My P380 didn't like them much in the beginning, but fed them fine after 300 or so rounds. (not much on record keeping, sorry) I took 600, 1000, 1500, and 2000 grit wet dry, polished the feed ramp, chamber, and magazines, and since then it's been great. Perfect if I dare say it.

I used up what Winchester that I had left and it went though just fine. I just don't use it anymore, since I'm stocked up on Remington, and Magtech, and Federal are working out so well with it. If it's all I can get or I need to get more ammo, perhaps I'll give it another go.

[jocko]

funny how a few hundred rounds down range tend sto limber up a gun. . Nice job on the polsihing part to. U IMO cannot over polsih anything that makes contact in that gun. Magazines are often over looked for a nice polish job. I make sure all my magaazine feed lips get a good polish job on the underside where the casing rides against it. I take the mag spring and lay in on some 600+ grip paper and just motion it back and forth on each side, and the same with the follower to. might not make a hill of beans difference but I know in my mind that I have prepped my magazines as best I could. I have eliminated that possable if issue arise. I am not a fan of flat nose ammo in any gun, especially the P380. If it works in yours fine, I just shy away from it for no reason other than I just don't like the looks of it., Kind of a mental thing for me.. Kinda like trying to throw a leg over a honda, my leg just will not go!!!

[TominCA]

I took the P380 apart and cleaned it up - I also disassembled the slide which was fairly easy to do with the little tool made from a coat hanger (see tech section on slide disassembly - be sure to wear safety glasses!!) I got out my 600 grit looking for burrs - but did not find anything worth smoothing except for the face of the new extractor - which was very rough, so it got a few swipes, and the tip of the ejector - which had a burr on it!

The sheet from the factory said that they, "polished ejector" but obviously it had been crudely hit with a dremel or file. I cleaned it up a little without changing the shape and as I looked at it I realized that it is real critical in the extraction and reload function, much more so than the ejector in the 1911 because the cartridge actially rides back horizontally over the round in the magazine and then is tilted sideways and cammed to the right by the ejector. It works very closely with the cut of the extractor tooth. This system of ejecting the empty while rolling it accross the top of the next round saves them about 1/2 inch or so of action length. Which is important in a little pocket pistol.

Now I think I finally understand why these little pistols are so hard to make function properly. The system is good, and it is very strong - but it is also a monster to tune.

I ordered a whole bunch of different types of ammo for my next test. Maybe next week. I also ordered 2 new mags and a set of springs because I bet this little gun needs frequent spring changes.

[Rainman48314]

Tom, you're either to be commended for your extensive efforts on this P380 or you're the guy Barnum was talking about. It ought to be criminal to put out a POS like Kahr has. Too bad Kalifornia doesn't mandate that companies release stats on return rates or create a lemon law. A gun is the only purchase you can make where its "as is" on a brand new item. We don't tolerate this on any other product.

Did your dealer or Kahr give you anything for your expenses and inconvenience? A free mag or two is the customary apology. They sure should have. This has me livid as I am going through something similar on a Sig P238. The first one had frame damage and was replaced at 300 rounds.The second unit went back to Sig after only 50 rounds. It's there now. Fortunately, SIG pays shipping RT.

Good luck

[TominCA]

Thanks for the comments - I agree with you about people being overly tolerant on firearms purchases. If I bought a door lock or powersaw that functioned this poorly I would have a fit. With a pistol I just keep plugging away at it!

The Sig P238 looks like the old colt Mustang (or was it pony?) that came out, I think, in the 1980's? I have the Colt Government 380 which is the full sized version. It will only shoot a few brands of ammo reliably - Luckily Winchester White Box is one of them, and is real fussy about the mainspring. The original factory spring was 11 pounds but that was too weak and a 12 or 13 pounder from Wolff works good. Its a lot of fun to shoot but needs frequent cleaning and spring changes. I always thought the design did not scale down from 45ACP to 380 well - but is sure feels good in your hand!

I paid for all shipping to Kahr - I didn't feel like fighting with them over it but I felt whimpy I hung up after getting my RA number. To their credit they were FAST! but the fact that so many of these little pistols are having problems and coming back is really a management failure. They should be tracking their rate of return and addressing problem areas. After havng trouble I did some Googleing and found a lot of failure to feed or eject posts for the P380 going back to 2009. This problem has been here a for quite a while. While we complain about shipping costs they also incuur the same cost to one day it back to me. They have to answer the phone, talk to me, recieve and track my return, fix it, pay to sip it back and then suffer my endless complaints to other people, which has to discourage purchase of P380's and probably other Kahr products as ell.

They would be much smarter to just fix the problem (which is probably technical personnel related when the gun is tuned and test fired before shipping) and forego all of the above misery. Perhaps they are too busy buying other companies to run the ones they already have properly.

[Rainman48314]

The Mustang design was bought by Sig, they tweaked it a little. I hear Colt is thinking about a reissue now.

After eight days at Sig, I just got an email that she's on a FedEx plane back to my door. I hope to shoot it Wed or Thursday.

[jocko]

its costing kahr a bundle on these P380 to make um right. They gott a be tracking um and what they are doing to eliminate allthese returns is beyond me..

[TominCA]

I'm getting ready for the next test - the returned p380 seemed to shoot Fed Red Box and Remington FMJ pretty well. But in thinking about it - The little p380 is a pistol that is so small and so light it must be more than normally susceptable to ammunition variations.

If I try to imagine that I am the pistol's designer, I would designt the gun to fire the best personal defense ammunition. This would mean full power - but also more consistency (I'm assuming that more powerful ammunition must be more carefully quality controlled because it is closer to the upper pressure limits). If this is true, my "red box / white box" type ammo may be at the border line for functionality - especially when the pistol is new.

For the next test I'm going to "up" the ammo a little - I've gotten some Extreme Shock Max penetration (black tip), Hornady HP and also some Black Hills 100 grain FMJ. I picked thense because I have either shot them and liked them or they are a brand I consider good.

Are there any other suggestions for a good ammo for the p380? As long as I'm getting ammo I might as well get stuff others have had success with.

Of course I also have the Rem UMC, WWB, and some Magtech but I'll shoot that last after the gun is dirty.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

[HadEmAll]

Are there any other suggestions for a good ammo for the p380? As long as I'm getting ammo I might as well get stuff others have had success with.....................

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!


Tom, I'm not necessarily suggesting it, but just saying.............out of Speer Gold Dot 90 grain JHP, 2 types of Federal HydraShok 90 grain JHP, Aguila 90 grain JHP, Winchester 95 grain FMJ, and Sellier & Bellot 92 grain FMJ, the only 2 of those that I haven't had any malfunctions with in the last 500 rounds are the Speer Gold Dot 90 grain JHP, and the S&B 92 grain FMJ.

I got my 1st .380 (LCP) during the height of the ammo shortage, which affected .380 more than most calibers, and the S&B was the only thing I could get 500 of at the time.

When I was talking to Kahr about what ammo I was using when I experienced malfunctions, the person I was talking to said "they didn't recommend the Aguila", but didn't comment on the S&B.

I've pretty much determined that as long as I have the P380, I'm only going to carry it with the Speer 90 grain Gold Dots (I just ordered 500 of them), and order more S&B 92 grain FMJ for range use over the Winchester 95 grain FMJ, which is readily available at WalMart. I've not had any feeding failures with the Win 95 FMJ, but have had more stovepipes with it than any of the other ammo I mentioned.

The S&B comes with the primers waterproofed, which seems to indicate a little care in manufacturing anyway.

You gotta go with what works for you sometimes. Good Luck.

I'll be putting some more rounds through the P380 tomorrow. Hope I have good new to report. As a matter of fact, it's going to be an all Kahr range session. CW40, PM40, PM9, and the P380.

I'm going to shoot the P380 first to remove any doubt about tired hands being any part of any malfunctions, if any.

Barring anything majorly wrong with it tomorrow, I'm going to be carrying the P380 at the dentist's office Thursday, if it earns the privelage.:)

[Cokeman]

Have you noticed that the S&B turns the inside of the gun red from the primer seal. I always see the red when I'm cleaning and think wtf? Then I remember the sealer.

[HadEmAll]

Hadn't noticed that. I'll check tomorrow. But seems like I'd have seen it if it had occurred on my LCP or P380.

The primer sealant isn't exposed to the combustion process.

Anyway, I'll watch for it.

[Cokeman]

It's all around the striker hole.

[HadEmAll]

I fired 16 of the S&B's today, and there was the faintest red tinge around the firing pin or striker hole afterwards. I picked up a few of the fired casings, and the red sealant was still there on the primer. Some of the cartridges did have the sealant applied a little "messily" and it drifted out onto the base outside the primer area.

Maybe you got some that were a different lot than the ones I got, and maybe the sealant is a different composition or something.

Also, I wonder if you had lube or something on your pistol that might have dissolved the sealant?

Anyway, I have no problem with the S&B 92 grain FMJ, and will be ordering it for range ammo instead of the WWB 95 grainers.

Ammo to Go has a pretty good price right now on 500, and better on 1000.

If you read the advertising, the cartridges are designed with long term storage in mind, hence the primer sealant.

[Cokeman]

I got it at Cabela's for $12.99 for a box of 50.

[HadEmAll]

That's a great price.

[Cokeman]

March special.

[jocko]

It's all around the striker hole.

the more reason to ALWAYS clean out that striker channel using that little clean out hole. alittle residue on that channel ain't gonna hurt a thing as the design of the striker itself allows for some build up but if one cleans that hole every tme4 he cleans the gun, it will stay spiffy clean--PROMISE!!

[rogerthedodger]

the more reason to ALWAYS clean out that striker channel using that little clean out hole. alittle residue on that channel ain't gonna hurt a thing as the design of the striker itself allows for some build up but if one cleans that hole every tme4 he cleans the gun, it will stay spiffy clean--PROMISE!!
I agree with Jocko. I cleaned my P380 that way, spray thru the hole, and spray thru striker hole, lots of fine smetal specks came out. Then I dis-assembled the striker, clean as a whistle.
Roger:D

[TominCA]

Thanks for the advice on the Speer Gold Dot and the S&B - I ordered some and they are "in the mail" Meanwhile I have an assortment of stuff including Extreme Shock, Black Hills 100 fmj, Magtech +p (Hmmmm) and other stuff like Blazer Brass and Magtech 95 fmj.

I'm going to try some of these at lunch today and I'll run the Speer and the S&B on my next test after they get here next week. I don't like to count "results" over about 100 rounds or so because the gun is so little that it might be sensitive to fouling.

[jocko]

if u get a 100 rounds out of that little gun and it starts to act up, consider it maybe fouling, over issues. clean and repeat. For defense carry clean and reqady to go and you will not have to worry about it at all. These little guns are made wellbut to go out and shoot 200 rounds at one outting is kinda stretchin in as far as "fun" goes. I think the gun should go 200 rounds easily without cleaning but if it doesn't break ouff a range shoot at 100 and just be done with it for the day..

[TominCA]

I took the p380 to the range with "better" ammo - Here are the results.

Black Hills 100g FMJ - Functioned 100% but locked back before empty - I believe this is due to the "fatter" contour of the bullet in this round and I'll check the bullet clearance with the slide stop when I clean the gun tonight - In any event this is an easy to fix failure.

Magtech +P puardian gold 85Gg HP functioned 100% with one premature lockback.

Magtech 95 was almost 100% - a little bit grip sensitive

One of the most imortant things about this gun is how you hold it. "Grip O death" is the best way - loosen up with any of the following ammo and you get a stovepipe:

Rem UMC 95g FMJ - 100% as long as the grip is right

Federal AE (red box) - 100% as long as the grip is perfect. Liked five rounds in the mag instead of six.

The following ammo was simply not reliable - Possibly when the springs loosen up and things smooth out these may do better:

Extreme shock enhanced penetration (black tip) Too bad - I love this stuff but it just did not want to feed at all. 2 or 3 jams out of every magazine.

Blazer Brass 95g FMJ - Didn't have high hopes for this one and it was not reliable. Shot just fine out of my finnickey colt Gov't 380 though.

I still have the Speer HP, some Hornady Critical Defense and good old S&B 95 grain FMJ on schedule for the next test.

So what have I learned? This gun likes heavier (and faster burning?) loads. The less powerful a load appears to be the more critical the grip. As the springs weaken this might change.

[Native]

Thanks TominCA for the report. I'm in the same boat playing with the little gun and reporting the facts. It's fun to play with the little thing. But, when my P380 went click instead of bang again today, I had to reach back and take my Glock 33 out and blast the woodpile just to know how a real gun is supposed to perform. Made me feel good not to have to baby it. My PM9 and my other Glocks do the same thing. This little 380 is a real prima dona though.

[Cokeman]

I took the p380 to the range with "better" ammo - Here are the results.

Black Hills 100g FMJ - Functioned 100% but locked back before empty - I believe this is due to the "fatter" contour of the bullet in this round and I'll check the bullet clearance with the slide stop when I clean the gun tonight - In any event this is an easy to fix failure.

Magtech +P puardian gold 85Gg HP functioned 100% with one premature lockback.

Magtech 95 was almost 100% - a little bit grip sensitive

One of the most imortant things about this gun is how you hold it. "Grip O death" is the best way - loosen up with any of the following ammo and you get a stovepipe:

Rem UMC 95g FMJ - 100% as long as the grip is right

Federal AE (red box) - 100% as long as the grip is perfect. Liked five rounds in the mag instead of six.

The following ammo was simply not reliable - Possibly when the springs loosen up and things smooth out these may do better:

Extreme shock enhanced penetration (black tip) Too bad - I love this stuff but it just did not want to feed at all. 2 or 3 jams out of every magazine.

Blazer Brass 95g FMJ - Didn't have high hopes for this one and it was not reliable. Shot just fine out of my finnickey colt Gov't 380 though.

I still have the Speer HP, some Hornady Critical Defense and good old S&B 95 grain FMJ on schedule for the next test.

So what have I learned? This gun likes heavier (and faster burning?) loads. The less powerful a load appears to be the more critical the grip. As the springs weaken this might change.

Good news for you. :53:

[TominCA]

I took the p380 apart and cleaned it last night It was very dirty - I noticed that both recoil springs were shorter than the new set I have as a spare - about 1/4" shorter just from firing about 500 rounds! I even counted the coils - I would attribute a lot of the function issues people like me are having to spring break in.

Since the Black Hills 100g FMJ loved to lock the slide back I checked the lower half with the slide stop in and a magazine with a round of BH 100 FMJ. Sure enough, it was "right there" against the bullet - I got out my cheap file set and tried to take a little off - Too hard! I had to use an india stone! In my famous brand 45's I can easily hack away at the slide stop because it is soft. Kahrs are really well made -

After I try the Speer (see previous post) and the S&B I'm going to end my ammo tests and pick one ammo for "use" and another cheap stuff for "range". I'll report back on that test.

Thanks to everyone for their help, advice and encouragement, both on and off line!

[Cap'n]

TominCa, I've been following your saga so it's nice to see you're making progress.

I, for one, would like to hear about your ammo choices when they settle out.

Best wishes.

[jocko]

I took the p380 apart and cleaned it last night It was very dirty - I noticed that both recoil springs were shorter than the new set I have as a spare - about 1/4" shorter just from firing about 500 rounds! I even counted the coils - I would attribute a lot of the function issues people like me are having to spring break in.

Since the Black Hills 100g FMJ loved to lock the slide back I checked the lower half with the slide stop in and a magazine with a round of BH 100 FMJ. Sure enough, it was "right there" against the bullet - I got out my cheap file set and tried to take a little off - Too hard! I had to use an india stone! In my famous brand 45's I can easily hack away at the slide stop because it is soft. Kahrs are really well made -

After I try the Speer (see previous post) and the S&B I'm going to end my ammo tests and pick one ammo for "use" and another cheap stuff for "range". I'll report back on that test.

Thanks to everyone for their help, advice and encouragement, both on and off line!

springs will take a designed set , that 1/4" is normal. ur new set will look that aftger being just sittng in the gun even. I think yoiur wise in finding the defense round that works perfect and just sticking with it.

[MikeyKahr]

TominCa, I've been following your saga so it's nice to see you're making progress.

I've done the same as Cap'n. Your entire saga was one that almost hurt when reading and thinking about it, and I'm very thankful to hear that you're finally getting to where you should have been to start. Thanks for your patience and letting Kahr get it right - it would have been a shame had anything different happened.

[boostedgta]

I'm afraid I'm going down this same path... Just bought a brand new Kahr P380 at the local gun show over the weekend. I had previously gotten rid of my Ruger LCP because I did not like the trigger, did not like the way it fired (very uncomfortable and almost painful), and lack of good sights. I also have a S&W airweight .38 revolver for concealed carry, but depending on the attire, it's not always easily concealed. Did a lot of research--liked the look of the Diamondback DB380's but the reviews basically told me to steer clear. Anyway, saw plenty of good reviews on the Kahr P380 and thought I would spend the extra $$ and give it a try. I hope I didn't make a mistake. Mine is having feed problems almost every time! The bullet will either get jammed at a 45 degree angle trying to feed, or sometimes won't feed up at all and the slide will be stuck in the open position. I haven't called Kahr yet but that will be tomorrow... I just want something reliable for carry and I hope they can make this right for me.

[jocko]

boostedgta:

have u ventured over to the kahr tech section andhit on two good stickys that just might help you.

Karh lube chart

Propper prepping of your new kahr. that thread willgive you some things to look at concerning your issues.

not knowing how many rounds you have shot through it either, kinda hard to even try to help with suggestions. If at last resort it has to go back call kahr and ask for Jay or eoin and BE NICE AND POLITE. state your issues and what you have done etc, and ammo used etc, and as them to send a pre paid pick up n the gun. INSIST on it. But I would not do anythinguntil you get a couple hundred rounds out of the gun. shoot fmj ammo also , skp the defense expesnsive stuff until it is right. do read the propper prepping thread though. it can be of some help..

[TominCA]

Hi boostedgta - I had my share of problems with my 2 p380's. It can be real frustrating - one of the problems is that the pistol is just so small that everything becomes very sensitive and critical. The other problem is they are going out of the factory before that are tested enough.

Having said that - Here is what I have learned:

Grip is critical - and varies with ammo type. Mine prefers heavy loads (they will take +P) For mine (which has the new heavy recoil springs) +p has no problems but with the few brands of "standard" stuff that it shoots well grip is critical. Double taps are almost always trouble free because they force you to hold the gun right.

Ammo is critical - besides power length and profile seems important. For example, I like Extreme Shock deep penetration rounds (the black tip) They fired well in my P380 but I bought a new box and they suddenly would not feed at all - 2 or 3 jams out of each mag. What happened? The spec changed and the new ammo was 10 / 1000 or an inch longer in OAL.

The extractor - like the butler in the old murder movie who always was the killer - you extractor will usually be the villian. Test feed some dummy rounds and watch how that little tooth has to accept the rim as it moves forward and to the right. And on the back stroke the empty case is rolled over the next round and sort of sideways flipped by the ejector. Its got to be tuned just right! It often isn't.

Yours sounds like you need heavier bullets - hotter loads at least for a while until it breaks in. I also find that this pistol desn not run 100% dirty - which is no big deal and I clean mine every 100 rounds.

The best part about Kahr is their customer service - call them up and you get a guy who actually works on them - not some guy on the night shift in India who has never actually see a gun. My send back turnaround was the fastest I could imagine. CA to MA and back fixed in 7 days.

Now for the good part. These things are obviously well made. You can tell by looking at them. What you can't see is that many of the metal parts are also tempered way beyond what is standard for the industry. Smoothing one ip is a lot more work than it would be on many other "famous name" guns.

And finally there are a lot of p380 complaints on this forum - mine probably among the largest in the group - but if you read and follow the threads - Like mine, they all get fixed.

[boostedgta]

Thanks guys. Picked up some new (different brand) ammo today and so far all is well. I still went thru disassembly, cleaning, and followed the lube diagram. Will report back after I get a chance to run some more rounds through it (started to rain on me this evening).

[TominCA]

Hi - I tried the Buffalo Bore and I had only so - so results - The pistol mostly did not lock back on the last round with BB ??? I suspect heavy recoil and slide velocity as the culprits and possibly bullet profile also. The Speer Gold dot was pretty bad also - acted like it was not powerful enough - especially as the pistol go dirty. I brought along some Rem 95 FMJ and also Black hills 100 FMJ and both functioned just fine.

Suprisingly the box of S&B 92 worked pretty good - but had a couple of ftf as the gun became dirty. Since I've got a lot of the Rem and Winchester Red Box in my ammo cabinet - I'm going to stop here since they are inexpensive. For defense, which I will probably never use the pistol for, I have Black Hills 100 and Mag Tech 85g HP. Those are good enough. I declare this gun finished!!! (finally!)

Since I started this thread in October of 2011 (I think that was the date) I have had a lot of adventures with Kahr guns. I've actually come to like them and ordered my next one - an MK9 with night sights - should be here in a couple of weeks and I'll move over to the M Topic for my report!

Again, thanks to so many on this forum who gave me advice and encouragement!

Tom in CA