Almost have it ....

[bigmacque]

I've almost got it, but I still need some help:

How do you shoot one of these PM9's straight?

I mean, obviously, the bullet goes where the gun is aimed, but I'm still having issues getting this thing under control. I've put 376 rounds through it, including 12 JHP's that I loaded after I thought I was doing better, but I cannot get a group at 7 yards. I'm literally all over the place -- about the only thing I'm consistent on is at least I hit the paper.

I know the shortened site radius is new to me, as is the smallish grip -- I've loaded the 7rnd mag a few times, but I'm specifically trying to gain proficiency with the 6rnd mag -- and the only other thing I can attribute my lack of grouping to is the DA. I have a Springfield Armory .45, the GI.45 Micro Compact, and a HK .45, a USP C, and can place shots anywhere I want with those two weapons. I also have a S&W Sigma 9mm that sometimes gives me trouble -- the common denominator obviously between the S&W and my new l'il buddy is the DA.

Snap caps and more practice will be on the agenda, but I'm open to any and all suggestions. I really like this gun, and really want to carry it, but really need to be better with it before I can do that.

Anybody else have any trouble getting used to the PM9?

[Bawanna]

All you can do is focus on the basics. I'd start even closer than 7 yards, even 3 or 4. It's a huge transition from a 1911 or any single action to the Kahr 1/4 mile but smooth trigger. Up close will help exagerate your mistakes. Let someone else shoot it to confirm it you and not the gun but I'm doubtful its the gun although everyone always blames the gun. It's a credit to your integrity to admit that your playing a part in all this.
As you said the snap caps, and more trigger time. Dryfiring can help and save some ammo. Some people here are darn good shots with them and some not so go but good enough. It'll come, don't give up.

[jreXD9]

smoooooth trigger pull all the way through bang, don't anticipate and flinch.

[O'Dell]

I've almost got it, but I still need some help:

How do you shoot one of these PM9's straight?

I mean, obviously, the bullet goes where the gun is aimed, but I'm still having issues getting this thing under control. I've put 376 rounds through it, including 12 JHP's that I loaded after I thought I was doing better, but I cannot get a group at 7 yards. I'm literally all over the place -- about the only thing I'm consistent on is at least I hit the paper.

I know the shortened site radius is new to me, as is the smallish grip -- I've loaded the 7rnd mag a few times, but I'm specifically trying to gain proficiency with the 6rnd mag -- and the only other thing I can attribute my lack of grouping to is the DA. I have a Springfield Armory .45, the GI.45 Micro Compact, and a HK .45, a USP C, and can place shots anywhere I want with those two weapons. I also have a S&W Sigma 9mm that sometimes gives me trouble -- the common denominator obviously between the S&W and my new l'il buddy is the DA.

Snap caps and more practice will be on the agenda, but I'm open to any and all suggestions. I really like this gun, and really want to carry it, but really need to be better with it before I can do that.

Anybody else have any trouble getting used to the PM9?

I have a PM45 and have pretty well mastered that, but i plan on getting a PM9 soon to replace a stolen CW9. I've only shot a PM9 once and the "pinky dangle" bothered me a lot. I have a feeling I'll be in the same position in a couple of weeks trying to get on top of shooting the thing.

On another note how do you like the HK USP c 45? I've bought four new 45's in the last two weeks to build back my collection, and that pistol is one of them. I've only shot two of them due to time constraints getting to the range, and the HK is one I haven't tried yet. If it shoots as well as it looks and feels, it should be a winner.

[bigmacque]

Oh I admit it's all me, I know the gun is working fine -- and I appreciate the advice bwanna, I did just that yesterday at the range, had one of the range guys fire it. He had a little bit of sway, but by and large he hit things fairly accurately, so I know the problem is all me.

I think it's a combination of things: the shortened site radius, as this is my first pistol this size -- the Springfield and the HK are both just a bit longer in the barrel -- the smallish grip, both my Springfield and my HK are just long enough to get my whole hand around, and the light pistol shooting a fairly heavy round, 124 grains.

All in all, it's just a matter of practice, practice, practice.

As for my HK O'Dell, I love it. Very smooth shooter. I bought it used, it had probably 400 rounds through it when I bought it, and now easily has double that. It was the duty gun of a cop friend of mine, and he sold it to me for a great price, so I couldn't resist, and I've been extremely happy with that gun. That HK is the first gun that I've ever picked up and put a hole perfectly in the center of the target on the very first pull of the trigger.

[OldLincoln]

I know you are experienced but I suggest you try using a bench rest of some sort and lock the gun hard in your grip. Take your time and see what happens. The PM9 needs a firm handler, no coaxing, you gotta really strangle the sucker with both hands.

I always shoot better on my mags 2-4 then the others. My hands get tired and I have to focus a lot on grip or I find the gun taking my hands up and to the right on recoil. A firm grip and it is manageable.

[wyntrout]

The PM9 was my first DAO gun(this past January) and I kind of gave up on it. I know I was doing things wrong. After I got the PM45, I took to it right away and loved it. The same with the P380 about a month later. I finally went back to the PM9 and I could shoot it better, too.
If I take my time and do everything correctly, the POI will be the POA, but I get in a hurry and start doing bad things, so the bullets get sprinkled about, but most go COM. This "technique" only gets me MAYBE 50% on the pie plate at 15 yards. I just can't slow down and try to "aim" each shot. I don't figure I'll have that luxury in a gunfight and I do a lot of pointing with the sights lined up. As the barrel approaches the aiming point on recovery from recoil, I start squeezing the trigger to fire as it crosses the aiming point... no tiny groups for me and 15 yards has become long-range as I've aged and my eyesight is not as good.
<<That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it>>

Wynn:)

[jocko]

I've almost got it, but I still need some help:

How do you shoot one of these PM9's straight?

I mean, obviously, the bullet goes where the gun is aimed, but I'm still having issues getting this thing under control. I've put 376 rounds through it, including 12 JHP's that I loaded after I thought I was doing better, but I cannot get a group at 7 yards. I'm literally all over the place -- about the only thing I'm consistent on is at least I hit the paper.

I know the shortened site radius is new to me, as is the smallish grip -- I've loaded the 7rnd mag a few times, but I'm specifically trying to gain proficiency with the 6rnd mag -- and the only other thing I can attribute my lack of grouping to is the DA. I have a Springfield Armory .45, the GI.45 Micro Compact, and a HK .45, a USP C, and can place shots anywhere I want with those two weapons. I also have a S&W Sigma 9mm that sometimes gives me trouble -- the common denominator obviously between the S&W and my new l'il buddy is the DA.

Snap caps and more practice will be on the agenda, but I'm open to any and all suggestions. I really like this gun, and really want to carry it, but really need to be better with it before I can do that.

Anybody else have any trouble getting used to the PM9?

I don't want to bust your bubble but I have over 30,000 rounds out of my PM9, the best little pocket rocket I have ever had. That being said, I shoot it horribly, just horribly, compared to my G19 and even my P380 I can out shoot my PM9. It is not the short sight radius, it is for me two things. A very looooong but oh so smooth trigger and the fact that I am just a piss poor shot with a gun that requires some diligence. They ain't 1911 sytle single actions. try shooting a J frame double action and then single action and examine the groups. There is a reason for everything..

If you practice more and shoot close 7 yards and under, you will get good but based on my results, don't expect one hole accuracy, for me at 7 yards a 4" group is OK, For that is about the best I can do. I practice the way I carry, so I don't use a rest or sandbag or extended grip to give a different hand feel. I am happy with my results, hell I better be, that is alot of rounds to be no better. I do't shoot my K9 much beter but it is better. I do shoot my P380 better at 7 yards than my PM9, so figure that fooking sh-it out and let me know.

I have always said kahrs are not the easiest guns to shoot dead nuts accurate but again I know to it is not the gun. Some of you guys on this forum have proven that but I do think the vast majoriity are in my boat to. Some maybe won't admit it, some maybe still working on getting better, for me after 30,000 rounds, I can now see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Personally I think you doing great, accept the PM9 or for that matter most all kahrs for what they were designed for. Close up and personal defense guns with a great safety system and outstanding reliability..

If I want to hit beer cans at 25 yards, my kahrs would be my last choice..

How many times have we heard of another shooter saying " I used to have such and such but peddled it as it just didn't shoot well for me?"

[dusty10]

I am by no means as experienced a shooter as the previous posters but no one mentioned possibly adding the pierce grip extension to your PM9 mags. This should get you pinky back on the grip. Might help. Don't know how it will impact concealability though. Just a thought.

[kahrseye]

I took a friend of mine to the range about two weeks ago. Against my advice he purchased a Sig P238 (.380). His loss.....I digress. Anyway he's shooting this gun and he's all over the place. So I taught him a technique I learned a long time ago. It's called the Push Pull Technique. If you're right handed, you take your normal 2 handed shooting stance and push with your right hand and at the same time with equal pressure you pull back your right hand with your left. It automatically stablizes the gun. It's easy to master and will definitely help your shooting. You can practice the technique before you go to the range. If this is too elementary I apologize but it has helped me become alot better shot.

[Bawanna]

I took a friend of mine to the range about two weeks ago. Against my advice he purchased a Sig P238 (.380). His loss.....I digress. Anyway he's shooting this gun and he's all over the place. So I taught him a technique I learned a long time ago. It's called the Push Pull Technique. If you're right handed, you take your normal 2 handed shooting stance and push with your right hand and at the same time with equal pressure you pull back your right hand with your left. It automatically stablizes the gun. It's easy to master and will definitely help your shooting. You can practice the technique before you go to the range. If this is too elementary I apologize but it has helped me become alot better shot.

I use your method we shall henceforth call the "Kahrseye Isometric
Stance" all the time and it's usually the first thing I explain when I find an unsuspecting new shooter to help. It steadys you right down when you got the shakes, too much coffee or not enough to eat prior to range time.
It works elementary or not.

[yqtszhj]

It's called the Push Pull Technique. If you're right handed, you take your normal 2 handed shooting stance and push with your right hand and at the same time with equal pressure you pull back your right hand with your left. It automatically stablizes the gun.

This technique works well. I use this when I 2 hand shoot and I can even shoot a LCP pretty decent that way. With my CW9 it's even better at 25 yards.

[Jeremiah/Az]

I practice by dry firing at home. Make sure your gun is EMPTY of course. Pick out a light switch or something fairly small. Align yor sights on it & squeeze the trigger slowly & try to never let the sights come off the object 'til you hear the click of the firing pin. You will get better with practice.

[bigmacque]

Nice thread ... I really appreciate the input, all of it.

I will get better with it, just because I'm too damn stubborn not to. The push-pull is something that I've heard of, and somewhat tried, but not really practiced -- I'm adding that to the agenda.

Thanks again, everyone, this turned into a nice thread.

[olympicmotorcars]

I am just a passable shot with my PM 40 also. I do not shoot it nearly as well as my Glock 27, although I havent had it as long either. I recently changed ranges , my old range just went out to 7 yards, my new one is 10 yards and really amplifies my mistakes. I think sight picture with me is very critical, and I am still threatening to send my slide in to Karh and get a set of meprolights put on it. I am not going to embarrass myself by disclosing my group sizes but I am sure most of you out shoot me pretty handily. Having said that, we have to always remember why we bought these ultra concealable weapons in the first place, we never have an excuse to be unarmed again. I believe I can adequately protect myself and my family with it if called to do so. I continue to be thrilled with my PM and would not trade it for 10 Glocks.

[jlottmc]

Push/pull works. One other thing you can do is when dry firing, pick the small object and snap in on it, then put a dime on the top of the pistol. That dime should not move until the striker releases and the click is heard. I know it sounds silly, but it will help show how much movement is in your trigger pull. Start slowly, then get faster.

[earle8888]

You might want to try a CT laser site.

[OldLincoln]

Isometric tension is key for two handed shooting. I learned push left and right more than in and out. But now I'm finding when I strangle the sucker with both hands I'm tensed over all axes. Also that's a good iso exercise to do watching TV or whatever.

[sierrajb]

Here's a non-original thought: Did Kahr make the PM9 (and others like it) for the purpose of shooting range targets, or for the purpose of concealed carry SD? How much should we expect from the original design of the pocket pistols(mouseguns)?

[wyntrout]

He had all of that in mind with the design. It's not a "target gun" but some guys shoot 2" groups at 25 yards... without a rest... with a Kahr. He designed a campact, easily concealed 9mm DAO pistol with several novel ideas or design features. He had 6 patents and reached 7 with the polymers. The low axis of the barrel was achieved by the offset feed ramp which gave enough space for the trigger he designed. The low barrel axis gives lower apparent recoil and helps control the small pistol. Space is at a premium inside these pistols... some more than others... the PM45 is really cramped, while the PM9 has a bit more space. Everything has to work just right and there are all kinds of things that can cause feed failures when something is off a bit.

These guns are accurate, but you have to learn how to shoot them. A lot of times, my first shot on a magazine is dead center... 7 yards and sometimes 15 yards... the limit at the indoor range I belong to. After that I'm in a hurry, I guess, and sprinkle them around... mostly to the left of a vertical line through the center of the target, being right-handed. I've posted some of my sprinkles... and some of my better groups. BUT, I say over and over, small tight groups are BS in self defense. You can't take all the time you need to get properly situated, lined up, control your breathing, and squeeze slowly... WHILE SOMEONE'S SHOOTING AT YOU! Or about to. I'm satisfied if I can keep them on a paper plate at 7 yards... most rounds within 3 to 4 inches of the center... and ON the danged plate at 15 yards. The first time I did that with two mags full at 15 yards with my PM45, I knew I was getting somewhere... finally... then I sprinkled the next couple of mags all over the 17" square piece of cardboard.:)

My eyes aren't what they used to be, at 65. I get sight alignment and then I pretty much point and shoot. As the gun comes back on target, I'm pulling the trigger so that it fires as the front sight reaches and passes the target. In a gunfight, I'll be moving and probably trying to reach cover while firing... otherwise, I'm like the danged target at the range... stationary and full of holes!:eek:

Wynn:)

[Joe L]

I can put 6 rounds in an 8" circle at 25 yards with my CM9 and PM40 on a calm day with little caffeine. Finally. But I couldn't at first. Steady, smooth trigger pull, no anticipation of the break, and some grip tape to fatten up the grip and give me a little better strong hand fit are what did it. Plus a lot of rounds down range. And some practice with a Laser Ammo device, which is the best investment for people with multiple platforms there is.

[jocko]

I can do that to at 25 yards. course in my case it took me 100 rounds to put 6 rounds in an 8" circle.

Does that count??????

Joe L, that is damn good, no damn great shootin!!

[wayneo1]

When I purchase my Kahr it was for carry. Just wanted a gun that was able to be put into action quickly and thats what I got in spades. When shooting I find wrapping my finger around the trigger and letting it roll while squeezing does it for me. I know its not right but it works for me. Plus not anticipating the break. My biggest surprise with the Kahr was how accurate it can be out 15 yards. when I shoot that far its for pure grins and it always amazes me when that little gun put the bullet on the 10 ring. I usually figure its too far to expect much. I dont know how far you could go with it because of our range only goes to 15 yards. One last thing, I found that for some reason after shooting the kahr I shoot 1911 much better. I think its mastering the long squeeze that does it.

[JBarbaresi]

well i see that this is an ancient thread that somehow got revived today, i'm sure the OP has either mastered shooting his PM9 or given up on the notion by now. that being said, since this is now a fresh thread i thought i'd add my 2 cents.

my disclaimer: i've only had my cm9 for exactly 1 week as of today, but have 700 rounds through it at this point. being used to the glock trigger, it took me about 300-400 rounds to really figure out the trigger on the kahr and comfortably shoot it with any level of accuracy. the lack of a defined striker release and the long reset were the hardest things for me to adjust to. i am by no means an expert shooter, but i have found myself able to keep my groupings under 2" at 7 yards, and easily hitting 4" plates at 15-20 yards.

with that being said, as glad as i am that i am able to shoot the cm9 to that level of accuracy, it means nothing to me other than having the comfort of knowing what my little pocket carry gun is capable of. i will never use it in a competition, and beyond plinking for fun out in my backyard i will likely never have to use it at those distances for its intended purpose of self defense. the fantasy of being able to deliver a head shot at 25 yards in 1.2 seconds is not realistic. most of my training from here on out with the cm9 will be at close range, 3-7 yards, presenting from concealment and quickly delivering accurately [enough] placed shots center mass on a silhouette.

if shooting tight groups is absolutely essential for you, or just a personal goal like in my case, in addition to some of the other excellent suggestions already mentioned here are some of the TTPs i have adopted to shoot the cm9 better:

1) make sure you practice primarily in the configuration you intend to carry; i.e. using a pinky extension just for the sake of more accuracy at the range is a no-go in my opinion, unless you plan on carrying it like that as well.

2) with a proper grip on your gun, curl your strong hand pinky finger back into your palm tightly as if you were making a fist. this will tighten your overall grip, and your pinky will also act like a "platform" under the magazine baseplate which will in turn help stabilize the gun.

3) lots of dry fire practice to learn the trigger pull. it is free and you can do it anywhere, no excuse not to. however, the key is to make sure you are practicing perfect technique, every time you pull the trigger. start off by pressing the trigger very slowly until you get a good feel for the striker release point. make sure you are pressing the trigger and not squeezing it. if you don't know the difference, focus on isolating just your trigger finger movement in a straight back linear direction during dry fire practice, eventually you will figure out what it should feel like. after enough repetitions muscle memory will take over and you won't have to think about it so hard.

4) make sure you are using the appropriate amount of finger on the trigger. too much or too little will cause you to throw your shots. typically we tend to use too much, and in the case of the cm9/pm9 trigger which is unusually wide to begin with, you may feel like you need the pad of your finger to cover the entire trigger. this is not necessarily the case, start by only using enough of the tip of your finger to cover half the trigger, and adjust from there until your groups improve. you may also notice it is easier to press the trigger correctly when you use less of your finger.

5) in order to compensate for the small sight radius on the gun, make sure your arms are as fully extended as possible while still maintaining comfort and shootability. extending the rear sight an additional 6 inches from your eyes makes a whole lot more of a difference than you might think. again, shooting in a fully extended stance is for accuracy at the range only, it is by no means the most tactical stance to take in a defensive posture.

4) try adding a grip enhancer onto the handle. with only 2 fingers on the grip to begin with, every bit of traction will help in controlling the recoil and trigger pull. depending on your preference many people like the hogue rubber grips, the qwik grip rubber grips, talon grips (sand paper or rubber version available), decal grips, or if you're cheap like me go buy a $5 universal bicycle inner tube from walmart and you can make yourself 50 rubber grips for all your guns.

also, if you notice your groups are consistently hitting in one area of the target, use the below chart to help identify the problem and make adjustments. just remember, practice is the key to anything. a monkey can accurately shoot a match grade 1911 with 5" barrel and competition sights. shooting a true subcompact pocket pistol is a different matter altogether. hope this helps out at least a bit, i apologize that it ended up being more like 5 cents.

for right handed shooters
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt176/jbarbaresi/Guns/righthandshooterchart.jpg

[JFootin]

Nice post, JB. Regarding #3 - doing lots of dry fire practice, there is a laser tool that can really increase the effectiveness of the practice. It is available here:
http://www.laserlyte.com/Laser_Training_System/LT-PRO/LT-PRO.html

When I first got my CM9, I thought it would be a waste because the slide is so hard to rack. (Duh. :nerd:) But then I found that you only have to rack it about 1/2" to set the trigger, so I am planning to get one of the LT-PROs.

P.S. I wore my gun in my tuckable PJHolster IWB with J-hook (http://pjholster.com/?page_id=30) for hours and I actually had to reach and touch my gun to reaffirm that it was still there! You talk about a comfortable, forget its there holster! And just $40 shipped. :D

I saw where you were going to send yours back to get it changed to a closed Kydex belt loop. But you said you had some sticky tape there to hold to the belt. I found that my jeans tend to fold or sag under the weight of the gun, and the J-hook ends up 1/2" below the bottom of the belt. I had considered asking Paul for a closed belt loop or a metal clip, but I like the easy on and off with the J-hook (less noticeable, too). So, I am considering putting a 1" square of Velcro hook on the J-hook and a strip maybe 2-3" wide of Velcro loop on the belt, so I can snug the belt all the way down in the J-hook and it will stay there, not allowing the gun and holster to sink. Whaddayathink? :cool:

[JBarbaresi]

Nice post, JB. Regarding #3 - doing lots of dry fire practice, there is a laser tool that can really increase the effectiveness of the practice. It is available here:
http://www.laserlyte.com/Laser_Training_System/LT-PRO/LT-PRO.html

When I first got my CM9, I thought it would be a waste because the slide is so hard to rack. (Duh. :nerd:) But then I found that you only have to rack it about 1/2" to set the trigger, so I am planning to get one of the LT-PROs.

P.S. I wore my gun in my tuckable PJHolster IWB with J-hook (http://pjholster.com/?page_id=30) for hours and I actually had to reach and touch my gun to reaffirm that it was still there! You talk about a comfortable, forget its there holster! And just $40 shipped. :D

I saw where you were going to send yours back to get it changed to a closed Kydex belt loop. But you said you had some sticky tape there to hold to the belt. I found that my jeans tend to fold or sag under the weight of the gun, and the J-hook ends up 1/2" below the bottom of the belt. I had considered asking Paul for a closed belt loop or a metal clip, but I like the easy on and off with the J-hook (less noticeable, too). So, I am considering putting a 1" square of Velcro hook on the J-hook and a strip maybe 2-3" wide of Velcro loop on the belt, so I can snug the belt all the way down in the J-hook and it will stay there, not allowing the gun and holster to sink. Whaddayathink? :cool:

i read about the laserlyte today for the first time in another thread, probably a post by you. my issue with the j-hook was exactly as you described, i originally ordered it because it is less noticeable. but even with as small and light as the cm9 is, i found that with the j-hook most of the gun weight is supported by the pants instead of the belt. the velcro idea might work, it can't hurt anyways. if it doesn't work i would see what paul recommends since he's so easy to work with.

i sent mine back to him on monday and it still hasn't been delivered, hopefully tomorrow. i also ordered a pocket holster that he is going to send along with the IWB after he alters the attachment. a soon as i get them back i am going to do a review in the gear section with pictures of them all and the mag pouches i got for my glock mags. if you decide to try the velcro let me know how it works out.