View Full Version : Competition for the Kahr PM 9?
oldjarhead
10-28-2010, 08:16 AM
Looks like Sig Sauer is trying to compete with the Kahr PM9. They announced recently a new subcompact 9mm DOA about the same size and weight of the PM9. Looks like a P250 type trigger, with a hammer and not striker fired. Don't know for sure. What do you all think? Here's a link:Products & Services (http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=70&productid=307)
garyb
10-28-2010, 09:26 AM
I think it looks like competition, but I did not see the specs comparing weight and size. It appears to be better fit in the mag base. However, Sig still doesn't make it in my caliber and I'm not sure of the advantage of the hammer over Kahr's mechanics. For me, I'm settled on Kahr and my caliber, so I see no advantage. But for the new buyer of a 9mm in this size product, I would definately take a close look at them both.
frank_drebin
10-28-2010, 10:21 AM
Looks a lot like the Diamondback to me.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc81/jbabbler/pistols/IACPOrlando038.jpg
jocko
10-28-2010, 10:30 AM
frank: that is blasphemy to put the sig in the same class as the diamonback!!I wonder why that build up half moon thing is inside the trigger guard?? and why..
I don't find the gun ugly, I question a hammer though but again that is sig, they don't make a striker gun to my knowledge. At 25% more in weight, kahr again leaves the competition wondering how they can pull it off like that..
jlottmc
10-28-2010, 10:38 AM
I don't know about that little guy. Maybe if it came in 40 or 45 I'd warm to it faster, but as is it may take some time for those looks to grow on me.
Bawanna
10-28-2010, 10:45 AM
frank: that is blasphemy to put the sig in the same class as the diamonback!!I wonder why that build up half moon thing is inside the trigger guard?? and why..
I don't find the gun ugly, I question a hammer though but again that is sig, they don't make a striker gun to my knowledge. At 25% more in weight, kahr again leaves the competition wondering how they can pull it off like that..
I suspect the half moon is to prevent trigger pinch. Why they didn't recontour the trigger guard remains a mystery.
Won't be one those on my Christmas list, just not appealing to me in anyway.
wyntrout
10-28-2010, 10:47 AM
That slide lock lever sure is ugly... looks out of place, or an afterthought. 9mm and .45 versions might be interesting, but I'm not crazy about the hammer... watching it slowly come back while pulling the trigger. At least you can see that the hammer is down.:)
Wynn
frank_drebin
10-28-2010, 11:03 AM
frank: that is blasphemy to put the sig in the same class as the diamonback!!I wonder why that build up half moon thing is inside the trigger guard?? and why..
I don't find the gun ugly, I question a hammer though but again that is sig, they don't make a striker gun to my knowledge. At 25% more in weight, kahr again leaves the competition wondering how they can pull it off like that..
Sig blasphemies their own guns with offerings like the P250 and the P238. Sig today is not the Sig of yesteryear. I wouldn't own a new production Sig.
jocko
10-28-2010, 11:07 AM
probalby the difference of German made vs. american made has alot to do with it...
wyntrout
10-28-2010, 11:08 AM
Like the "Kahr" label, eh?
Wynn:D
O'Dell
10-28-2010, 01:24 PM
As much as I like my SIG's, that is an ugly pistol. It hasn't changed my mind about replacing the stolen CW9 with a PM9.
MikeyKahr
10-28-2010, 03:16 PM
I do have to give it up to Sig for one thing - that flush magazine plate is one area that Kahr could take a lesson from Sig. Just sayin' (Tilos would say). :banplease:
O'Dell
10-28-2010, 03:45 PM
I do have to give it up to Sig for one thing - that flush magazine plate is one area that Kahr could take a lesson from Sig. Just sayin' (Tilos would say). :banplease:
The PM9 has a flush plate on the six rounder.
wyntrout
10-28-2010, 04:02 PM
Right, we still need some for the .45's. We could use a 7-rounder with extended grip for the P380, too, for a reload and the range... more is better... in ammo, anyhow!
Wynn:D
dusty10
10-28-2010, 07:16 PM
I agree with all previous negatives posted but, I do like the mag being recessed. I don't like HOW they did it but, I like the fact that they did it. This Sig is not on my wish list.
MikeyKahr
10-28-2010, 10:13 PM
The PM9 has a flush plate on the six rounder.
Hey O'Dell, there's flush....and then there's flush. My PM9 six-round mags are "flush" but that said, they still stick out a good 1/8-1/4" from the bottom of the grip.:israel: But I guess I shouldn't complain, at least the six-round mags work consistently, unlike the seven-rounders!!
frank_drebin
10-29-2010, 07:48 AM
Hey O'Dell, there's flush....and then there's flush. My PM9 six-round mags are "flush" but that said, they still stick out a good 1/8-1/4" from the bottom of the grip.:israel: But I guess I shouldn't complain, at least the six-round mags work consistently, unlike the seven-rounders!!
When I cut the magwell length for my CW40c I originally had the mag base flush to the grip. That proved to be too close and locking in to place with a full mag was spotty at best. I ended up relieving the cut a little to give maximum reliability. I like it this way better too because I can fit the Pierce pinky extension on the magazine now where as before the thicker plastic lip of the extension wouldn't let the mag lock in.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc81/jbabbler/pistols/CW40-5.jpg
GOOFA
10-30-2010, 02:13 AM
I'll definitely try the Sig out when they become available. I don't have a problem with their looks. If I could only shoot my PM9 at a rapid pace as I do my MK9 I wouldn't bother looking at the Sig, but I can't. This was my best with my PM9 but I took my time. This was offhand @ 21 ft.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4534147000_e54540fe11_d.jpg
As soon as I pick up the pace with my PM9 as I would in a real life scenario my performance declines to an unacceptable level for some reason, this does not hold true with my MK9, CW9, K9 Elite 03 or a few others from different manufacturers that I may find myself carrying from time to time.
It's really a shame that my PM9 has become a safe queen the last 4 months. It's not often that you get a polymer Kahr that operates flawleesly from round one.
jocko
10-30-2010, 06:32 AM
but what ur group does show is that the gun and shooter mated up pretty good for that target results. Super shooting IMO. I can't do it, with a rest. FRAME IT.
Popeye
10-30-2010, 06:39 AM
I don't think I'll be trading my PM9 one on anytime soon. I'm not trashing the pistol but it's not for me. I have to agree though the way the mag finishes off is nice compared to the PM9. The grip angle I'm not liking though and the bump inside the trigger guard looks sort of like an Oops, didn't mean it to look like that. Also in small pistols I'm kind of partial to stricker fired DAO 9mm pistols.
jocko
10-30-2010, 07:05 AM
10-4 on the striker fired. I would even think less parts needed= less weight.
Popeye
10-30-2010, 07:57 AM
Right Jocko The trigger on the PM9 is the smoothest and nicest DAO trigger I've ever felt and I'd guess the trigger on the Sig is not as smooth being it's hammer fired. Like I said,just a guess though.
jocko
10-30-2010, 10:29 AM
no doubt if sig offered this in a 12 ounce version, we might be saying, it is going to be a real competitor to kahr,but at 25% more in weight and a tad bigger, I see it as just another good 380 pocket gun that will appeal to some and not to others. Price will be a big factor to and normally sigs are not low prced guns either. I would be surpised if it is as expensive as the kahr PM9 though.
wyntrout
10-30-2010, 10:34 AM
That hammer opening is another place for dirt and crud to intrude on the gun... and pocket lint for you pocket-carriers. :D
Wynn:)
jocko
10-30-2010, 10:41 AM
never thought of that!!
Popeye
10-30-2010, 12:34 PM
That hammer opening is another place for dirt and crud to intrude on the gun... and pocket lint for you pocket-carriers. :D
Wynn:)
Yup I agree Might not happen allot, but it only needs to happen once in a SHTF moment.:eek: That is the main reason I prefer striker fired pistols that are to be used for CC. As far as I'm concerned Kakr has nailed it with a striker fired, low bore axis, DAO smooth as butter trigger.
russ3068
10-30-2010, 12:37 PM
Trigger guard - clipped off zip tie
wyntrout
10-30-2010, 12:41 PM
And no extra buttons or levers... or eyewash clutter for guys... the look sported by too many guns these days... too busy with non-essential moldings or fake stampings. I like the clean, uncluttered and efficient design of Kahrs.
Wynn:)
Seahawk60
10-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Looks a lot like the Diamondback to me.
Uh, noooooo...
The DB looks a LOT like a Glock...not that SIG... Heck, look at the takedown "lever" and squared trigger guard for starters.
DB380 (http://diamondbackfirearms.com/DB380/)
Seahawk60
10-30-2010, 05:39 PM
no doubt if sig offered this in a 12 ounce version, we might be saying, it is going to be a real competitor to kahr,but at 25% more in weight and a tad bigger, I see it as just another good 380 pocket gun that will appeal to some and not to others. Price will be a big factor to and normally sigs are not low prced guns either. I would be surpised if it is as expensive as the kahr PM9 though.
9x19...not .380...
jocko
10-31-2010, 06:40 AM
ryoung..Seems that it is getting harder & harder to find ANYthing made worth a damn anymore
boy u got that right for sure..
BroncoAZ
10-31-2010, 01:04 PM
ryoung..Seems that it is getting harder & harder to find ANYthing made worth a damn anymore
boy u got that right for sure..
I'm pretty pleased with my PM9 and new P380 :behindsofa:
Seahawk60
10-31-2010, 02:49 PM
My PM9 is awesome, as well. Funny thing is I found some .380 recently, so I took my old POS Kel-Tec P3AT out and it ran 75 flawless rounds after sitting for a year or more. Didn't even clean/lube it. Go figure. Next time out, I'll probably have several FTFs. I've been through it a bunch of times (changing parts, fluff and buff, KTOG tricks, etc) and it's been back to Kel-Tec more than once. That P3AT has been the weirdest gun...very inconsistent...
jocko
10-31-2010, 04:04 PM
That P3AT has been the weirdest gun...very inconsistent...
I owned 3 of them, totally inconsistent, mine never worked very long, 17 times back for all 3 of them. god's truth. U name it, and it happened to my kt's. I have heard they are alot better today, but they have lost a ton of market dominance when they were thee only game in town. My guess they are at the lower end of the 380 food chain today..
BroncoAZ
10-31-2010, 04:21 PM
My KT pistols were very good, except for the P3AT. Over the past 10 years I had 2 P32's, 4 P11's. 2 P3AT's, 3 PF9's, a Sub2000, and a PLR-16. Some may think this is excessive, but I like to standardize and maintain redundancy (I have 4 G23's currently).
The first was a P32 that I carried appendix with their clip for 5 years. The gun ran perfect and never had an issue. I stupidly replaced it with a P3AT soon after they were introduced. The gun is terrible, and still sitting broken in my safe. My second P3AT was better, but not totally reliable. I went back to my trusted P32 and kept it until the Ruger LCP came out. I think the P3AT was never properly redesigned from the P32 to handle the .380 cartridge.
jocko
10-31-2010, 04:51 PM
My KT pistols were very good, except for the P3AT. Over the past 10 years I had 2 P32's, 4 P11's. 2 P3AT's, 3 PF9's, a Sub2000, and a PLR-16. Some may think this is excessive, but I like to standardize and maintain redundancy (I have 4 G23's currently).
The first was a P32 that I carried appendix with their clip for 5 years. The gun ran perfect and never had an issue. I stupidly replaced it with a P3AT soon after they were introduced. The gun is terrible, and still sitting broken in my safe. My second P3AT was better, but not totally reliable. I went back to my trusted P32 and kept it until the Ruger LCP came out. I think the P3AT was never properly redesigned from the P32 to handle the .380 cartridge.
for Ruger basically copied the kt380 and had to recall over 50,000 of them, which kt shouldhave done on their 380 and PF9's to but just never would do it. They had some real drop safety issues with both and still never recalled them but made a change after over 300,000 were already floating around in the publics hands. I lost faith in their product as soon as Ruger dcame oput with the lcp. even though it gave itssue, Ruger did the right thing and totally recalled all of them, No doubt either the Ruger lcp is by far a better working guin today than any kt380 and they look basically the same, but IMO the ruger isjust better made .I do't think kt ever thought they would be challenged in the 32 and 380 guns for they had the lightest and at the time the neatest two guns out there for years, so they basically IMO didn't care about quality or reliability or for that matter safety either. Once the 380 came out by kt the 32 died a quick death. It was just so under powered IMO over the 380, but most 32's did work, it seemed. The one I had sure didn't though. I had to barrel lugs break back to back in my 32, Now damn barrel lugs should not break, let alone the replacement one breakingin less than 50 rounds. they were both so pourus when examine, that no wonder they broke off.
About the only good thing was their lifetime warranty, which means nothing if you have a gun you can't trust either, as soon as I could finaly get my 3 kt's running for 50 rounds without an issue I PEDDLED THEM.
Seahawk60
10-31-2010, 04:51 PM
I stupidly replaced it with a P3AT soon after they were introduced. The gun is terrible, and still sitting broken in my safe.
Send that P3AT back to KT and demand they make it right. I actually have two P3ATs. One was an old 1st generation one that was complete crap. I finally got around to sending it in and told them I was fed up with it and asked if they could replace it with a 2nd gen pistol. My other one that was much better is a 2nd gen. So, I got a brand new 2nd gen P3AT back in exchange with my old serial number stamped on the frame. I think it also had to do with my 1st gen P3AT being a hard chromed one from back when they did the $20 slide exchange. I bet I got a new 2nd gen, also hard chromed, because they didn't have any hard chromed 1st gen parts left.
Of all the bad things I've said, felt, experienced with KT products, I certainly can't complain about their customer service. It HAS to be good with all the practice they get. :eek:
Seahawk60
10-31-2010, 04:54 PM
for Ruger basically copied the kt380 and had to recall over 50,000 of them, which kt shouldhave done on their 380 and PF9's to but just never would do it. They had some real drop safety issues with both and still never recalled them but made a change after over 300,000 were already floating around in the publics hands.
I've been with the P3AT since basically day ONE. I traded a problematic P32 (of course :rolleyes:) for a P3AT as soon as I ran across one in person. I don't recall ever hearing about a drop safety issue with the P3AT.
BroncoAZ
10-31-2010, 05:26 PM
Send that P3AT back to KT and demand they make it right. I actually have two P3ATs. One was an old 1st generation one that was complete crap. I finally got around to sending it in and told them I was fed up with it and asked if they could replace it with a 2nd gen pistol. My other one that was much better is a 2nd gen. So, I got a brand new 2nd gen P3AT back in exchange with my old serial number stamped on the frame. I think it also had to do with my 1st gen P3AT being a hard chromed one from back when they did the $20 slide exchange. I bet I got a new 2nd gen, also hard chromed, because they didn't have any hard chromed 1st gen parts left.
Of all the bad things I've said, felt, experienced with KT products, I certainly can't complain about their customer service. It HAS to be good with all the practice they get. :eek:
My broken P3AT had constant feeding issues and failure to go into battery. The last time I shot it the slide failed to go into battery, when I pulled the trigger the hammer spring broke. I e-mailed them several times asking for a return authorization, but I never got a response. I have not tried calling them. If they did fix or replace the gun I'd just sell it immediately.
Seahawk60
10-31-2010, 05:31 PM
Then spend the $10-15 to send it back and get it fixed into "sellable" condition. No sense in keeping a broken gun around when you don't have to. Or call Kel-Tec and have them you send you the parts (free) to fix it yourself. These are pretty easy pistols to work on... They'll send every part out but the frame, slide and barrel. Believe me, I know. I'm sure I have enough spare parts in my junk box to build a complete P3AT if I had those three other parts. I even have three plastic grip assemblies in two different colors. :eek:
Try calling. I never had a problem getting an RMA and I've sent guns back to Kel-Tec several times. It will probably take 6+ weeks to get it back, though. And, they close for 10 days over Christmas/New Years, so take that into account. 'Tis the season...
edited to add: I keep my two P3ATs around because they do serve the purpose of a "deep hideout gun". Both of them will definitely get through several mags before having any problems with FTFeeds. They will always shoot at least 4 mags reliably and I've tested this at the range extensively back when I actually carried the things when I first got my CC permit years ago. I figure I'm only going to have two or three mags on me with it anyway, so they WILL do the "trick" up close and personal. I start having problems after about 50 rounds. That should NOT be a problem, but...oh well... They'll reliably fire the 20 or so rounds I'm carrying... And, unlike others, I've never actually had one *break* on me when using it, so that's something.
Plus, they're the only "cute" little plastic .380s I have...so I keep 'em around... More as a novelty, I guess, since I never carry them anymore...but I could should the need arise...
wagon
11-11-2010, 08:56 AM
NICE.. no fugly gap between the grip and the mag.... not sure how it shoots tho.
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