Got the dreaded "redneck fix" response from Kahr...

[Seahawk60]

They told me to "cut a coil" off the recoil spring to make it work with an older PM9 so the slide can be locked back by hand normally. Pretty unprofessional sounding to me. I gave 'em hell for it and they emailed me back that it's what the gunsmiths do anyway. My questions is... Why in the heck don't they just DO THAT at the factory and send it out "as is", so it's "official--supposed to be that way" since the customer would never even know? So, now they're sending me yet another free recoil spring/guide rod assembly for my 2004 PM9, which is SUPPOSED to be factory cut this time. Strange as I made it a point to say I had an older 2004 manufacture pistol in every email I sent about the last assembly.

Sorry, but telling the customer to cut the spring down is just pretty damned cheesy in my book as a "shade tree" mechanic type fix... :rolleyes:

edited to add: Yes, I did ask this question of Jay and "service@kahr.com"...still awaiting an answer...if I get one...

[dusty10]

I resemble that insult. :D Having worked outside for almost 40 years, my neck is deep red and kinda leathery too. I understand you being put off by the service dept. but no need to insult us rednecks. :) Peace, Dusty

[Seahawk60]

Whatever... I just meant that it was a rather "low rent" solution they proposed. They should cut/grind/smooth the springs at the factory before sending them out, ESPECIALLY when the customer made damned sure to point out in every email the year of manufacture and how it was an older model. :rolleyes:

[yqtszhj]

I'm telling you, service in general is not what it was before, or I'm getting pickier as I get older. I ordered 2 recoil springs from Kahr last week (2 since shipping is 6 dollars for one or 2.) What do I get via Fedex today? One recoil spring. I check the credit card and they only charged me for one so there was no issue there. But I ordered TWO! I still love my CW9 though so no problem there.

But it's not just them. I work for a worldwide communications company, and our customer service is CRAP too! I spend my whole day fixing other departments messes to provide the customers service. I guess it's the way things go these days.

[Seahawk60]

I'm telling you, service in general is not what it was before, or I'm getting pickier as I get older. I ordered 2 recoil springs from Kahr last week (2 since shipping is 6 dollars for one or 2.) What do I get via Fedex today? One recoil spring. I check the credit card and they only charged me for one so there was no issue there. But I ordered TWO! I still love my CW9 though so no problem there.

Well, there kind of was an issue, right? You wanted two...and they didn't fill your order properly. And, you ordered two to save on shipping. Is Kahr going to send you a second one with free shipping?

[wyntrout]

Dang, Seahawk60. Chill a bit. Cutting one coil off is not a big deal. I'd hate to think about paying retail shipping to send a gun(or a part) back and forth for something so minor. Kahr pays half as much, but good grief... being asked to cut one coil off yourself is an outrage? In military old speak: "Waah!" :9:

I would gladly do easily user-performed simple and more complicated fixes to keep from having to send off one of my favorite toys... and I have.

The first time I took my PM45 to the range it had the "gap", or more properly, the lack of one, or the fix which was the the beveling of the "stripper". It would not chamber a round from the locked open position as advised by Kahr. I saw on Kahrtalk where at least one guy had beveled his CW to fix the problem, but I wanted to be sure that was what they would do... and it was. Now I have no problem doing that myself or advising anyone else to do the bevel... OR the "notch". These are internal fixes and don't have to look perfect, anyhow. It's educational figuring out or seeing how these pistols work.

Springs that are too long... and I mean have too many coils, everything else being equal, are easily shortened. We see guys on here all of the time who get new springs and want to shorten them to the same size lengthwise, as their old "set" or compressed ones. I don't remember when (10 to 12 years old) I figured that springs under pressure or compression got a bit shorter and stayed that way, but it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. The spring makers certainly know what they're doing and design them so that they do the job as intended after taking a "set'. I give people directions to Wolff Springs Frequently Asked Questions all of the time. Rambling.... :blah:

Uh... what the heck... er, where was I going with this? Anyhoo, go with the flow a bit... lighten up... minor mistakes happen and some are easily fixed. :hippie:
OR, do you want a tissue from Gunny R. Lee Ermey?? :boink:

Wynn:yo:

PS: When you order something, so you do it online and check the quantity and total cost, shipping, etc., compute?? I leave nothing like that to chance... no verbal orders. And I print out an invoice and them I get an email as well, to crosscheck. :)

[Bawanna]

Hope you fellas don't mind if I slip on my flak jacket and fireproof suit. I agree "Chill" is the key word here. After that I really want no part of this one.

[wyntrout]

Hey! I'm up to about 15 edits so far. :D

We need a "Waah!" smiley.:banplease::behindsofa::001_tt2:

Add that one to the request for one with an AMERICAN flag... like the ISRAELI flag-waver: :israel: :)

[Seahawk60]

Dang, Seahawk60. Chill a bit. Cutting one coil off is not a big deal.

It is when a bunch of your sh^t is still in storage (recent move) on the other side of the country. I'm NOT using a pair of wire cutters to do it, either. :rolleyes:

As for the rest of that diatribe... Blah, blah, blah... :D


PS: When you order something, so you do it online and check the quantity and total cost, shipping, etc., compute?? I leave nothing like that to chance... no verbal orders. And I print out an invoice and them I get an email as well, to crosscheck. :)Is this in response to me? I wasn't the one with the incorrect order. Besides, all that is fine and dandy, but they still sent an incomplete order to that guy. Who knows...there's a very good chance he, in fact, did order on-line.

[wyntrout]

You can use a pair of scissors in a pinch... maybe... might leave a nick in the blade.

I use our scissors for all kinds of stuff... maybe that's why we have so many dinged ones.

Hey... in the Navy... when you guys were sitting in a briefing room and some crewdog-type guy gets a gripe off his chest... did most of you ridicule the complainer and go "Waah!"... maybe wiping a tear from your eyes... ya know, supporting your buds?? We sure did in the Air Force during mission planning and the daily morning briefings on alert... great fun!

Wynn:D

[Seahawk60]

You can use a pair of scissors in a pinch... maybe... might leave a nick in the blade.

You're NOT going to cut a hardened steel spring with "scissors". :rolleyes:

[wyntrout]

Dang... now you've challenged me. I have to find a spring that I don't mind trimming.
Danged PM45 recoil spring is tough... can't get a 90° cut with the coils. That's a pretty stout spring. I might have scratched it. It was a coil and a half longer than the one I left in the gun... too freaking strong as it is! I definitely don't need an extra long spring for it.

Well, enough fun... inbound warning call from wifey... 10 minutes to make it look like I did something besides nap and sit here at the computer!

Wynn:D

First picture shows the finish scratched and a few nicks. The second a picture of everything involved. The big ding in the scissors is not from this... I tired to cut as close to the scissors' pin as possible... most mechanical advantage and all. :D

[yqtszhj]

Well, there kind of was an issue, right? You wanted two...and they didn't fill your order properly. And, you ordered two to save on shipping. Is Kahr going to send you a second one with free shipping?

Let me see what I can do for some smiley's to cheer things up.
I may give them a call Monday. Got home too late to call today. Complaining aside, at least I only got charged for what I was shipped.:)
They will probably ship me another one for free.:) I didn't pay for something I didn't ask for or get like happens at my place of employment.:)

And the best part......... It's Friday, I still have my Kahr, I have 200 rounds of ammo and as jocko would say tomorrow I'm going to go shoot it like I stole it.

:target::59:

Life is still good. :cool: I've had a lot worse things happen.

[wyntrout]

You have a good attitude. They should ship it free. I just ordered a bunch of stuff from a site Greg just posted a link to, and shipping was fixed at $9.99 for 1 to 1,000 items. I looked and looked and ordered some stuff I didn't need and still only got $62 worth, including shipping. Got some more magazines... non-Kahr to play with.
Wynn:D

[OldLincoln]

Hey guys, I thought you carried those high priced knives for just this purpose! Whip that puppy out and saw the coil off.

I'm a graduate of the Tim Taylor school of screwing up everything I touch, so I'm with Hawk on this one. I suppose I could cut off a coil, but probably need to stretch it out to my neighbor's house to get a good spot to cut it. Bout the time I'd have it half way, the other end would come loose and slash my face putting me in the hospital, all because Kahr didn't think it was important to actually supply the correct size spring for my particular gun. Nope they can try this one again.

[wyntrout]

Dang, maybe I could make a video on how to use wire cutters to snip a coil off a spring.... I'm pretty sure that I've done that at the "dinner table"/hobby table here. It's not brain surgery... just gotta watch out for those tiny bits you snip off... they go shooting off and could get in your eye.:eek: I just hate when I get a tiny... very tiny piece of fine copper wire stuck in my hand or something like that.

Wifey's gone to bed and I can play some more.

Still surfing/shopping for stuff. Hmmm... Magic Jack... gotta get one of those. I got a gadget that lets me hook my cell phone up to my cordless phone set by bluetooth. I'm thinking of getting rid of my landline and AT&T... except for my Pay-as-You-Go cell phones... $100 each per year... and of course, my DSL... need that. Need to turn the TV off... all paid programming now.:D

Wynn:D

[bigmacque]

I'm with Wynn on this one ..... if we were sitting around the bar with a few cold ones in us, the responses might have been a bit more colorful. Jest fer the fun of it!

[Crusty]

I think some of you are missing part of the point. Not only did Kahr ship a spring that would knowingly function incorrectly in the designated firearm. They aren't considerate enough to include documentation on needed modifications.
How would any of you like to take that firearm into a nasty firefight and realize a malfunction was caused by a new factory OEM part. We do need to hold manufacturers accountable for full documentation/disclosure if nothing else.
I have a feeling that Seahawk60 would have been a bit more comfortable with the situation if Kahr had included the important info of needing to modify the spring along with straight forward instructions.
Keep in mind that most products these days have disclaimers against any modifications by the consumer. If that's the case for a toaster, what should us non-gunsmiths think when it comes to a highly prized and relied on handgun.

Sorry about the rant, but shoddy customer service/support is only out there because consumers continue to legitimize it.

[Jim K]

Here is some words stolen from someone who knows:

Cutting the spring will reduce the preload when installed. The spring rate will increase, and may cause the spring to work with a narrower range of ammo variation.

Short answer is yes, you can get a lighter spring by cutting a heavier one, but it will take some trials to get it right, and is apt to be finicky.

Buy the right spring from the get go. You will be way ahead.

This post has been edited by wide45: 04 September 2009 - 03:50 PM

( From Brianenos.com )

-----------------------------------------------------
If you cut a recoil spring anyway, cut the open end.
-----------------------------------------------------

Here is a link to clear up mysteries and BS about springs:

Lee Spring - Lee Spring – A Guide for Engineers (http://www.leespring.com/engguide4.asp?mypdfstr=C6)

ignore the math.

------------------------------------------------------

I'm wondering why Kahr does not check springs before they go into their firearms. It's not a big deal. For the price you pay for these things you expect more than a mere assemblage of parts.

Boing! Jimk

[Seahawk60]

I think some of you are missing part of the point. Not only did Kahr ship a spring that would knowingly function incorrectly in the designated firearm. They aren't considerate enough to include documentation on needed modifications.

BINGO. Well said. However, the spring did function okay when actually firing. It's just that there was NO way to lock the slide back manually, either by manipulating the slide lock by thumb or jacking the slide back as hard as I could with an empty mag inserted. Since the spring was too long, it was becoming virtually coil bound (all coils compressed to the point of touching) at full recoil. When firing, there was *just enough* slide energy to barely get the slide lock to catch after the last round, but by hand? Fuggetaboutit.


How would any of you like to take that firearm into a nasty firefight and realize a malfunction was caused by a new factory OEM part.Well, that's a different story. Carrying an UNverified firearm is not smart and I always range check it before carrying it after changing anything. Even grip panels (if applicable) and sights. Finding out a gun doesn't work because it wasn't tested, either new or after a modification, is one's OWN fault in that circumstance.


I have a feeling that Seahawk60 would have been a bit more comfortable with the situation if Kahr had included the important info of needing to modify the spring along with straight forward instructions.It wasn't really about feeling "comfortable", but rather the stupidity of being told to perform a cheesy, hobbyist type fix when they could have EASILY made the modification before shipping it out and avoided any insinuation of an unprofessional recommendation. I'm not the only person who felt this was a "cop out" and I was quite surprised when someone else wrote about it.

I did receive my new "modified old version" spring and guide rod assembly. Instead of a single coil, as Kahr recommended, they cut off 2.5 coils and the spring is much shorter than the "new" version they'd previously sent. Aside from making the spring shorter so it fits, this DOES definitely affect the pre-load and strength of the spring. I can take pictures if anyone cares.

[Seahawk60]

I'm wondering why Kahr does not check springs before they go into their firearms. It's not a big deal. For the price you pay for these things you expect more than a mere assemblage of parts.


Yes. And, Kahr has FAR more "old style" PM9s out there than the new "longer slide" versions. From what I understand, this is a pretty recent change...as in lsix months, maybe less, old. They NEED to go ahead and just modify a bunch of these springs and keep a bin of them for repairs/replacements on "old" PM9s. After all, it's not like these aren't consumable parts. :rolleyes:

[O'Dell]

Too bad they can't do like Ruger did for me last week. I bought a used KP345 3 or 4 weeks ago, and although it functioned 100%, the recoil spring felt weak to me. It was a 2004 build and I had no idea how many rounds had gone through it. I called Ruger CS and explained that I thought I need a new spring. The rep said it would probably be a good idea to replace it. He said the spring was $3.00 with $3.50 shipping, but would I mind if he just dropped one in an envelope and mailed it no charge. I got it in two days.

[Seahawk60]

Too bad they can't do like Ruger did for me last week.

Kahr did "do like Ruger" for me...free springs/guide rods and only a couple of days to receive in themail. They just sent me an incorrect spring assembly when I addressed the fact that I had an older 2004 PM9 over and over again in my emails when I KNEW there were two designs currently. My beef was telling me to just "cut the spring", which was definitely not a professional answer. So, they sent me one cut down, albeit cut down much farther than they told me to cut, so I'll have to see if it actually works reliably.

If I want Ruger service, I just drive over to the plant next to the airport in Prescott, Az. :cool: