Frustrating gun store experience.

[frank_drebin]

One of the local gun shops is having a "Year end used gun clearance" right now. I normally don't shop there due to their prices but I stopped in today to see what they had. I was surprised to see several Kahrs on the shelf. The odd thing is that every one had an issue. They had a CW45 for $399. It looked like new but the trigger wouldn't reset. I pulled the trigger and the striker worked, left the trigger pulled and racked the slide. When I released the trigger it never reset. If I let the trigger out and racked the slide it worked fine. It did this 100% of the time. They also had a few other CWs in 9 and 40. Without exception, they all had a bent slide stop spring. Every one of them. I showed the sales guy and he acted completely aloof about it. I can only imagine that anyone who buys one of these will end up on the web bitching that their slide locks open after each shot or that the takedown lever falls out. The last one i looked at was a PM40 but the slide wouldn't lock back on an empty mag. Once again, I showed the sales guy and he said "The smaller Kahrs don't have that feature". I looked and sure enough the follower was broken. I'm sure they thought I was being a know-it-all. I won't be going back there. To bad too, those low-priced $620 WASR-10s that they had on sale were looking real attractive.... :rolleyes:

[sonofodin]

Maybe you should post some descreet fliers around the shop when nobody is looking. Why let people get sucked in to such highway robbery? The local gun store here is noted for inflated prices, ignoring regular customers for LEO's, and other such treachorys. One of the sales attendants insulted me on mid tour leave in full uniform while looking at a weapon I was not familiar with. Another time they called my number (oh thats right, take a number and wait forever) and completely ignored me while everyone starred at them IOT help a couple of gangsters. From now on I only go there when they have ammo, reloading equip. or accesories on sale or a genuinely good price on a firearm. I make my firearm purchases from the indoor gun range owned by regular joes who are respectful, knowledgeable and make me feel welcome every time I come. When I came home from the army they even gave me free tokens to bring the misses in and shoot.

No, Vances shooter supplies in Ohio can kiss my arse.

[DasFriek]

sonofodin- I have to admit alot of what you say is true about Vances, But i do see things a bit differently. Ive been shopping there almost 2 years and have bought a handful of guns from them. And another handful from their sister store Vance Outdoors in Hebron which is completely different experience.
Ive never seen inflated prices, As a matter of fact they most times will beat Buds online.
In order to do that it takes volume sales, And thats where the issues you say start.

Ive not run into the LEO preference so i cant comment on that.
I haven't been outright insulted, But i have gotten salesman who would rather be talking to a McDonalds Quarter Pounder W/cheese than me.
I too think the number system is horrible, I can name 3 DMV branches i can get threw faster than being waited on first at Vances. But they have like 10 salesman behind the counter stumbling over themselves so i dont see what the can do except open another store close by.
The Gangsters are fun to watch during your inevitable wait, Luckily most just buy a Hi Point and move to the end of the counter where they are located.
I also wont take a gun in for trade or sale there, You will be lucky to get 33% of its value offered to you.
Ive actually taken numbers and during the confusion of flipping the switch and someone else being skipped my number was never called and i just left.

With hardly any competition they do high volume sales, What Buds sells over the net is about what Vances sells over the counter.
Most issues are due to this fact.

But i have some positive things to say about them and they will remain the place i go when i need to buy a gun or accessory.
Prices are on par with Buds and many times beats them. If your gun isnt on sale ask for a better price, It works ive done it.
During the ammo problem last year they remained in keeping ammo in stock at prices lower than WalMart and didn't gouge when they could have.
Ive been lucky enough to know one saleman enough that when i go in and know im gonna buy that day i ask him to wait on me next and i dont even take a number. Im not a cop, The guy knows im not gonna waste his time and make a quick sale.

Ive went in a few times and had them adjust my sights on my guns for free.
And if you keep your eyes open you can get some steals on used guns as they get lots of police trades and want to move them more than make a ton of money.

Now with that said try The Hebron store as its a completely different experience except on Friday and Saturday when they are more busy. But the Sales people tend to be more relaxed and willing to take their time.

I don't think i disagreed with you on much here, I just see it differently.
I could say more bad things about the other local stores than Vances so their is no perfect store to buy from in the Columbus area.

[Bawanna]

One of the things that I've learned over the years buying stuff personally and for the dept is to always deal with 1 person. Not the shop as a whole. I visit them if they are local or email if needed. One of the very first things I let them know is that I totally accept the fact that nobody knows everything about everything. You get guys coming into a shop that spent half their life studying some foreign wazzo 13mm special wizz darn it and think your dumb cause you never heard of it. Ive been there.
So it's perfectly ok and the correct response to my question is I don't know but I'll try to find out.
I tell them there are no second chances, if they lie to me and mess me up, our relationship is over, if they are the boss I move to another dealer. If they are a line worker, I let their boss know and I try another line dealer utilizing the same criteria.
This is especially true and actually what started me on all this dealing with like reloading and stuff where a false answer or misinformation could actually hurt you. Same thing like will this caliber work in this other caliber. Stuff like that.
Its been a few years but the last salesman I wrote off at the same shop that I deal with alot now and they deal LE. I was looking for some sort of small backup type gun for a couple of the officers. The salesman without being asked made the statement "And don't even think about night sights".
I took this to mean they weren't available from the factory and would have to be added. I later found out that he'd shared his personal opinion in that small backup guns don't need nightsights and not waste the money.
Good bye Mr. Salesman, bring on the next.......
By dealing with 1 person you don't get jerked around by the whole store and if an arse whuppin is deserved you know exactly where to direct your efforts.

[sonofodin]

Friek, I do agree that they get killer trades there. Bought a S&W Mod 10 for even 3 and a few years back a 6906 w/3 mags for 350. I once watched this dude dressed in all gang colors walk in, haul a walther 22 out of his crotch area , unload said hangun completely and ask how much do dey take fo dis. Shocking? Not in that neighborhood.

[DasFriek]

Yes, I make sure my car doors are locked as i drive threw that part of town and my weapon is close at hand and readily available.
I snagged a 95% CZ VZ 45 .25 made in 1947 and it was beautiful to say the least for $200, I could kick myself for selling it but i just couldn't bring myself to carry it.
Grabbed a Mossberg 500SPX with top rail and AR style sights and AR collapsible stock unfired for $300

I know you have issues with them on many fronts, I do too.
But in order to get low prices on everything there is only one way it can be done, High volume sales likes Buds has. And since they sell everything at the store and just opened up their website thats alot of people in a not so large store.

I have a wide variety of issues with most gun stores in the Columbus area from bad selection, Way high prices, Grumpy owners and $12 a 1/2 hour of range time is ridicules.
IMO you just have to take the good with the bad to get what you want.

I sent Vances an email about ordering me a Kahr MK9 and i posted it in the other thread and the owner of the store Todd Vance was the one who personally emailed me back.
And im nobody special either.
BTW the quote they gave me was $10 cheaper than Buds price.

Im not sure who ill be buying it from since Vances takes 3-4 weeks to get the gun in stock on special order, But most likely ill buy threw Buds and GunEnvy in Grove City does $20 transfers. So with the tax Vances would have to charge it will be about even no matter who i buy from.
I may go and put a deposit down at the first of the month and have them order it and have it ready at the first of the year when ill have all my cash.

[sonofodin]

Sometimes you just have to talk to the right clerk. Alot of the times when I go in there its also the people Hoss. You get the "Wowser a gun!" crowd, the thugs/gangster that walk around being obnoxious and obtrusive to your personal space saying crap like "yo look at dat gun homie it be big dawg", the "i wanna handle it for 30 minutes but not buy it" guy, the "what gun is best for my wife" guy/gal...etc. IF they would just read the darn paper it would be so much easier. I read the paper/web so I KNOW what I want when I go in and dont fiddle around forever. If im not sure I want to buy something right away, I'll say I'll think about it bud and let someone else get helped. Last time some gangster kid came very close to runnin my old lady over. Bad for your health to do that.

[Chief Joseph]

I've had nothing but frustrating experiences at pretty much ALL my local gun stores as well as a couple of vendors at the gun show. Now that I'm not in the market for another gun, I avoid them all like the plague. It would behoove some of these gun stores to send their employees and the owners THEMSELVES to some customer service classes, most notably to treat their customers like CUSTOMERS.

[Ninjatarian]

All of the prices in my area are extremely inflated, I have about 7 gun shops to choose from but the prices are all the same- high. a PPS goes anywhere from 700-850 new, kahr pms are 750-900, m&p around 600 and glocks 550-600. Ammo is still inflated with 7.62x39 sitting around 6-8 bucks for 20 wolf brand. About 5 of the shops have horendous customer service, they barely acknowledge you half the time and dont even want to make smal talk if you ask a question, typical grumpy old men who think THEY are the ones who know everything. I had one shop owner tell me the PX4 compact doesnt even exist.... another shop scratched my Khar and re-assembled it wrong when I had them look at it for possible trade. I have two shops I am willing to go to, high prices but at least they give a dam about the customer to some degree.

[DasFriek]

sonofodin- If i go back to Vances soon ill get the sales guys name i use.
I am just like you, I dont like to waste a salesmans time unless i know im gonna walk out with a gun, Then i may look at several options. But mostly i just ask to see a gun or two and im done in less than a minute.
But when i do buy i generally know what im gonna buy before i walk in as a gun purchase is usually something ive researched many hours before hand.
I just walk up to this guy and say " Id like for you to wait on me when you get done and wait on a few more customers to make it fair to everyone" But he usually takes me next after the guy hes done with.
Hes young but knows his guns and not pushy but seems to know what i like also. I guess we have similar tastes in guns. If it wasn't for this guy it truly would be a pain to buy from other guys there. Especially most of the older ones.

I like the gangsters at the Desert Eagle counter drooling over the gold plated 50AE's.
Then they move to the AR section and waste a bunch of the salesmans time there and then to the FOTAY counter to see all the Glocks and they settle down to the end with the Hi Points. They give Hi Points a bad name imo. lol

Ninjatarian- What you describe is what the rest of the gun stores in Columbus seem like to me. Mostly over priced, Grumpy old owners/salesmen but ill say the knowledge seems to be higher than what you experience.
So for me id rather fight threw the crowd at Vances than buy from a grumpy old man that is over charging me $100 or more for a $550 pistol.
Actually they aren't over charging me, Its more like they are small and cant get volume discounts and pay more for their stock.

I wish there was a Holy Grail of gun stores, I find Buds pretty close as i can shop by web site and not have to wait on a slow salesman.
I may buy my next gun from Buds as Vances will have to special order my MK9 i want and takes 3-4 weeks to get in stock. So id need to put a deposit down so its ready when i have all the cash as there is no way i can wait 3-4 weeks for a gun i just paid for.

Ive also had good luck on rifles at Gander Mountain in Hilliard as i do have a relative who works there and the sales people always give me the best price they can. But when it comes to pistols its always $100+ higher than Vances. They consistantly are the highest paying place when i want to sell a gun. Usually 2x as much as Vances will offer. Granted they may only give you 50% of what you paid but i thing Vances only give 33% of the original price.

[Bawanna]

When I first got hurt the state got me into an on the job training program at a gunshop in sales. My biggest downfall was not being able to hear.
This shop was run like a used car lot, they had me follow this punk kid that was the sales manager around. He said whatever they look at first, sell them. The shop had very minimal inventory and operated under the premise we can order it for them.
This of course never worked for me, I go to a shop to hold stuff to see if I want to buy it. Ordering sight unseen don't work for me.
Anyhow after about a week of this BS I asked the owner to let me work my way. He agreed.
We had numerous people come in everyday, young, old, woman that never owned a gun. I absolutely loved these people and usually we werent' so busy that I couldn't spend alot of time with them. Show them all the options. The other sales people would cringe when I'd tell the customer, don't buy anything today. Think about what we looked at, do some more homework and when your ready come see us. The others would say I blew it.
I told them that person either won't buy a gun at all or if they do they'll buy it from me. With in a month I had so many people asking for me just via word of mouth. My friend said you were nice and helped her, can you help me. I sold alot of guns and stuff for that guy for about 3 months, never made a dime. (on the job training).
One morning he called my wife and told her I didn't need to come in anymore. Talking to some of the other guys, they went thru about 4 guys in2 weeks. The first guy only lasted less than a day.
Gun salesmen should take the time to figure out customer needs and work with them, they are the first line in introducing new shooters and can make a great or very poor first impression.
I had an elderly lady (I was young then) she came in and immediately was looking hard at a 1911. I of course let her hold it but obviously it wasn't for her. I could easily have sold that expensive gun to her but sold her something much more suitable. She brought her husband (used a walker as I recall) the next day and he bought one too.
So I can say I was in sales for about 3 months.

[sonofodin]

Its a damn shame B that they would say "we dont need you anymore" because you actually had REAL customer service skills. I woulda told em FINE, wanna be a bunch of jackA$$'$? Wanna sell people crap they dont want because your a greedy $h!t? I hope your business fails faster than an Iraqi bank account. I hate it when people like that seem to fail at logic and anything else. They are blind and only see $$$ not people. But if you help people out and know what your talkin about they will tell their friends, friends friends, and so forth. Repeat business is better if it makes the place look better IMHO.

[frank_drebin]

A few years ago I was at Georgia Range & Guns in Forest Park GA and saw this first hand Bawanna. Two women came in and asked to see a "good gun for home protection". She said that her husband was deployed and her friend had come with her to look at something to keep by the bed. The saleman told her "What you want is a Kimber" and took her straight to the Kimber case. He hands her the gun and starts talking about it. She's holding it funny and looks lost. He then walks away for a minute. While he was away she racked the slide and every employee in the stor turned, put their gun on their hip and yelled at her. He actually told her that she "almost got herself shot". She left more afraid of guns than she was when she came in. I walked out in the parking lot and told her to go over to FPK Army Navy and look at the Maverick 88 shotguns or a surplus S&W 64.

[sonofodin]

No pleasant comment.

[Bawanna]

A few years ago I was at Georgia Range & Guns in Forest Park GA and saw this first hand Bawanna. Two women came in and asked to see a "good gun for home protection". She said that her husband was deployed and her friend had come with her to look at something to keep by the bed. The saleman told her "What you want is a Kimber" and took her straight to the Kimber case. He hands her the gun and starts talking about it. She's holding it funny and looks lost. He then walks away for a minute. While he was away she racked the slide and every employee in the stor turned, put their gun on their hip and yelled at her. He actually told her that she "almost got herself shot". She left more afraid of guns than she was when she came in. I walked out in the parking lot and told her to go over to FPK Army Navy and look at the Maverick 88 shotguns or a surplus S&W 64.

You probably single handedly saved that young lady from becoming an anti gunner. What kind of gun salesman would recommend a Kimber to a first time buyer. I wouldnt recommend that to anyone new to guns.
I was only there a few months but I sure got a ton of stories.
Theres one shop that I havent' been in for years. Had a ton of young guys for salesman that didn't look old enough to carry a gun, all with cocked and locked 1911's on their hip walking around with their hand on em.
Typical I know everything, you know nothing.
I did score a coop there. Right before the big assault weapon ban they had barrels full of SKS's, 2 or 3 barrels. All looked unissued in prime shape some Chinese stamped and many Russian milled. All covered in cosmoline or grease, just nasty. Your choice 105 bucks.
The had taken one very nice Russian version and cleaned it all up pretty and had it hanging on the peg board behind the counter. I asked it that was one of the same batch from the barrels. He said that it was. I said I'll take that one.
He of course said no deal, couldn't have that one. so I asked for the manager. After a short pow wow he gave in. He wasn't happy and I haven't been back since. Still got the SKS, not sure I've ever shot it, only reason I bought it was the guvment was gonna tell me I couldn't have one. Even has the evil attached bayonet. I'm such a bad person.

[sonofodin]

I dont understand. Whats the reason you couldent have the one behind the counter?

[Bawanna]

I dont understand. Whats the reason you couldent have the one behind the counter?

Someone had probably spent 3 or 4 hours cleaning that nasty greasy specimen up so it could be displayed. They expected everyone to just take a greasy one out of the barrel. No one had asked for the clean pretty one.

[sonofodin]

Ranger that. I'm on target now

[wyntrout]

I've thought many times about those SKSs after 'Nam... late 70's, I guess they shipped over containers full of the things, just stacked like cordwood and most pretty gunky with cosmoline. They went for about $70 to $90 and you could get a clean Rooski-built one for about $100... with the neat bayonet. A couple of those and some sealed tins of reputable post 1950 ammo and you would be set for when TSHTF... shooting-wise. Oh, yeah... and a can opener!:D
Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

I've thought many times about those SKSs after 'Nam... late 70's, I guess they shipped over containers full of the things, just stacked like cordwood and most pretty gunky with cosmoline. They went for about $70 to $90 and you could get a clean Rooski-built one for about $100... with the neat bayonet. A couple of those and some sealed tins of reputable post 1950 ammo and you would be set for when TSHTF... shooting-wise. Oh, yeah... and a can opener!:D
Wynn:)

Yup and the price went up about 4x over as soon as the ban went into effect. Never did come back down to 100 a copy but did come down some.
I also found several guys that bought surplus 7.62x39 for their mini 30's. Found out they are 308 and surplus ammo is 311. It works just not the best. I got alot of surplus ammo that way too. I should shoot that thing someday.

[TD2K]

double post, sorry

[TD2K]

the most I've ever been insulted at a gun store was when I told them I was there to buy a Judge Public Defender and they handed me the PINK one. Then made some snide remark about "do you really think you can handle it?"

I didn't buy from there. :mad:

DO I LOOK LIKE I WANT A PINK GUN?!?!?!??!?!?! and HERE....LET ME SHOW YOU HOW WELL I CAN HANDLE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sonofodin]

Get em tiger.

[jlottmc]

I told my wife that if a gun shop tried that crap with her that we were gone never to return. I'd send her in after that, but I think they knew she was my wife. I've had salesmen tell me that was the easiest sale they ever made, because I came in and said I want that. Some folks will walk in and say I want to buy a 9mm. Umm ok, we have close to 30 good choices for that what are you looking to do with it. The response is I want to buy a 9mm. But then again that's what research is for. Oh yes I'm very loyal to gun stores and salesmen that do me right, if not I'll never be seen again.

[DasFriek]

sonofodin- Guess where i went today and got pretty darned irate while i was there? Vances of course.

Now ill admit i broken the golden rule of not taking a magic ticket that grants you access to the holders of keys of fire-sticks. But this was just a quick question, i saw no harm.
I probably should have asked my goto guy like i did afterwards, But no i asked an old grumpy guy. I looked at him while his customer was filling out his NICS form and was just standing there doing nothing, So i thought i might be safe.

"Excuse me sir, I have a quick questions for you" Then i get a "Cant you see im busy here scowl?" I ask "How much percent down do i need to special order a Kahr MK9?" He speaks and says " Well im busy right now, But when i get a chance ill have to go in the back and ask the higher up's as it all depends".
I was in no way gonna further interrupt his sale as i intended not to anyhow. And say " Thanks thats ok, Ill go get a ticket then and have someone wait on me."

Which i was mad enough then i wouldn't touch a ticket in they had dollar bills taped to them. So im looking around the belts and i see my normal "Goto Guy" helping someone in the holsters right behind me.
I simply ask the same thing and tell him i tried asking one of the old guys and they didn't take to kindly to people like me asking questions like that in here. And not only did he gladly answer me, But also said 3-4 week wait would most likley be 7-8 week wait as they had been having a hard time getting items quickly from Kahr.
Of course i thanked him and bought a flashlight clamp for my shotgun and left.

Now im not gonna say im not ever going back as i knew this was the routine and i knew better. At best ill hurry in and buy my ammo cheaply and if i need a specific gun ill ask my goto guy and get the heck out.

But i do plan on buying that MK9 from Buds now and NOT Vances.
And i don't blame you one bit for never going back.

[sonofodin]

Well I tried to warn you friend that when you least expect it they will pull something. The misses is right here and clearly remembers when they called my number and ignored me after standing there for an hour how disgusted I got and I simply left. I'd tell your friends (as I dont really have any) not to purchase firearms from vances. When I bought my S&W Model 10 I went through all the trade ins for the one in the best shape before i laid $300 down on a used trade in gun and I told the guy I was buying a firearm today FOR SURE while looking at them. The guy barely spoke a word to me about anything. It was one of the older guys. Vances sucks. What really sucks is since ole' Zane has been gone Vances has had the market cornered on shooting stuff. To be completely honest if I can order something online I do just so I dont have to suffer the aggrevation of that place. Graf and Sons have plenty of deals on all the reloading and loaded ammo that I need. I buy my arms from Steve Uska (spelling) at the powder room. Or George or Jordan. Screw vances. I wouldn't save it if it was on fire.

Vances caters to cops, the ultra rich and people that shouldn't even be owning a gun.

[DasFriek]

I think for me they will be a necessary evil, I don't know anyone any other place that will cut me breaks on prices since ive never bought there before.
I live 20 miles south of Columbus in Mt Sterling so its a 1 hour drive to Vances so i have decided to start visiting a local shop close by in Fayette county Bottom Dollar Gun & Archery PRO Shop. They have good prices for being Powder room sized in their gun selection but also friendly and helpfull.

I dont know how far you go back in the Columbus gun market, But i started out as a Davis guns customer and 2 years ago when i got back into guns was upset when i found out they went out of business. Being away 20 from shooting makes you miss alot of happenings. But your right, Vances has the market pretty well cornered and i guess feel they can treat people how they feel like it.

Im praying Buds still has an MK9 available the first of the year when ill have the money saved to buy it. GunEnvy in Grove City does $20 transfers so that should be an easy sale i hope.

[wyntrout]

I bought one of those Mini-30's thinking I could shoot the cheap surplus stuff... wrong. The first shot would be dead center and quickly walk away from center as the barrel warmed. I didn't want to buy US ammo, so I sold the darn thing... was nice ... the stainless... had lots of stuff for it, but sold it at a loss... after paying premium prices for hi-cap stainless magazines.:(
Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

"Im praying Buds still has an MK9 available the first of the year when ill have the money saved to buy it. GunEnvy in Grove City does $20 transfers so that should be an easy sale i hope."

You might look on Buds website. I think they offer an easy squeasy payment or layaway program. At least they used to. I've considered it several times to support my gun whore addiction. I'm so ashamed of myself.
When your time comes, we'll rally the troops and find ya one. Count on that.

[DasFriek]

Thanks man, You guys here been a great help. Maybe too much help making me want that PM45 too.
Ill have to wait until the time comes to get the gun as money is rather tight at the moment.
I been paying bills like crazy so i can have that money more available to spend at the first of the year for the new gun.
If i have trouble ill be sure to ask for help.
I have a GunBroker account even tho ive never used it and feel comfortable using that also. Who knows maybe a member here may be wanting to sell his also as i don't always need new.
Ill keep everyone informed tho.

[jlottmc]

I warned you about the enabler part. Don't worry there are many of us unabashed gun whores here, we'll help you out. :D

[DasFriek]

Well it doesn't hurt than im majorly into ccw weapons at the moment either.
And Kahr for one pretty much has a gun in any size and caliber a CHL holder would ever need. And as much as i hate DAO they have the best stock trigger on the market.
I went today to visit a few other stores to see what they carry and meet the salesmen.
A local small shop i had to pry my self away from as they had a 3.5" RIA 1911 for $425 and had it not been for the fact i have over 600 rounds of .40 stashed away i would have traded my XD SC .40 in on it today.
I love 1911's and going threw withdraw as my full sized is at the refinishers after i just did a full rebuild with all high end parts i hand fit myself. Should have it in the next week or so i think ill survive threw it.

Then sonofodin i went too Buckeye outdoors out in Hebron just to see if i could stand it any better there.I had time to kill and needed to get a box of 9mm fmj for my dad so i like to see what they have in stock.
Its pretty much the same ordeal, Take a number and dont bug a salesman until then. But they had a Kahr P380 litely used at $449.
I could have put it in layaway and paid it off quick enough but if im gonna buy an MK9 the P380 will never be touched. Ill always take a little more size and weight as long as it does the same job which is "Back pocket duty" every time when its a higher caliber like 9mm.

PM45- $799
PM9 manual safety- $799
PM9- $699
CW9- $449
Their prices have really went up on Kahrs and was high enough to begin with.
So ill be working with you guys on getting the MK9 right at the 1st of the year, The 3rd actually.
Buds,GunBroker and possibly the classifieds here are places i have in mind.
It seems Cheaperthandirt.com 27405 - Kahr Arms MK9 Semi Automatic Handgun 9mm 3" Barrel 6 Rounds White Bar Dot Sights Hard Nylon Grips Matte Stainless Steel Finish (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/27405-55.html)
Has them for $659 same as Buds but ive never heard of anyone buying from them. Any tips on them?

I just relized most of this should have just been put into my thread and not muddied the waters here as its half on topic and half off.
If its a problem anyone pls lmk and ill edit and move what doesn't belong here.
I figured id keep it all in one place as it tends to make more sense as a post.