Obilgatory New Pistol Range report

[dusty10]

http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp182/packers1960/PM450002.jpg

Picked up my new Blackened Stainless PM45 last night. After Kahr recommended prep went to range today. I am happy to report 125 rounds with no issues except one operator error of not pushing second mag in far enough to catch. Duh.. But other than that, ran 230gr FMJ Speer Lawman and a handful of Fiocchi 230gr FMJ as well. Recoil was as expected for a light weight poly gun in this caliber and really was about the same as my PM9 if memory serves me right. The trigger was smoother right out of the box than the PM9 though and got better as round count increased. This pic is of my last mag full of the day. These are aimed shots and not as fast as I could pull the trigger so, as you can see, I have some more bonding to do with "Black Beauty". 100 more FMJ rounds and then I'll be trying various self defense rounds before I start carrying this piece. Any recommends on HP's for this gun appreciated. Dusty

[Bawanna]

Heck yes, good report Dusty. Looks like your on the money windage but vertical stringing. Your anticipating or milking the trigger. Time alone and more shots will help that go away. Some snap caps will help with that too.
I like the Speer Gold Dots 230 gr, but theres lots of good options.
I'd see whats mostly available around you and start with that. I can get Gold Dot, little tougher for the Winchester SXT's unless I dip in my armory stash which is out and out theft so that doesn't happen unless its an emergency of course.
Glad your bonding, good pic.

[TD2K]

:P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


(drool)

[10Kahrs]

Congrats! I have the same gun. I have tried various ammo in my PM45 so maybe I can save you some $$. I prefer the 185gr flavor for short barrel 45's but have tried them all. The remington golden sabre 185gr + 230gr and 185gr +P work real well and found them to be the most accurate for me anyway. Next is the infamous speer gold dots 185gr and 230gr. they work fine too. What I would stay away from is HORNADY I cant get through 1 mag of any 45 hornady ammo maybe its just my gun? Just a word of caution whatever ammo you do choose make sure it will eject LIVE rounds of that ammo. I'v had 2 PM45's and neither one would eject a live hornady round. Not being able to eject a live round could be a real problem in a self defence senario in the event of a misfire dud etc

[dusty10]

Thanks for replies and especially for the drool. ;) Looking at this gun, I think I can pocket carry it in the right britches no problem. Makes me think I should not have gotten the PM9...naw, forget I said that. I can ankle carry the 9 and still carry the .45 IWB or in pocket. Just look at the options you get with the Kahr line. Conceal carry nirvana.. :D

[wyntrout]

Federal Hydra Shok 230's or Bonded Remington 230-gr Golden Sabers. I used to carry the former before I couldn't find them and switched from Rem. GS to the Bonded GS when I saw those online. GS are good, but the bonded version (LE/Military) will give better penetration.
All I shoot are standard 230-grain bullets so the ballistics are close.

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/Ammunition/Pistol%20Revolver/GS.aspx

Wynn:)

[OldLincoln]

Makes me think I should not have gotten the PM9... Know how you feel. Now that my PM9 is really polished up and shoots like a dream - really perfect as soon as I find that darn ejector pin and re-assemble it. I got it for pocket carry but always carry in IWB. The PM45 would do that just as well and I'd have both my guns (Colt) the same caliber.

Is it just me or are the more recent PM45's shooting better when new?

[Bawanna]

Congrats! I have the same gun. I have tried various ammo in my PM45 so maybe I can save you some $$. I prefer the 185gr flavor for short barrel 45's but have tried them all. The remington golden sabre 185gr + 230gr and 185gr +P work real well and found them to be the most accurate for me anyway. Next is the infamous speer gold dots 185gr and 230gr. they work fine too. What I would stay away from is HORNADY I cant get through 1 mag of any 45 hornady ammo maybe its just my gun? Just a word of caution whatever ammo you do choose make sure it will eject LIVE rounds of that ammo. I'v had 2 PM45's and neither one would eject a live hornady round. Not being able to eject a live round could be a real problem in a self defence senario in the event of a misfire dud etc

Now I'm anxious to get out to the range. I got 500 free Hornady185 XTP's with my press. I was gonna see how well they do in my PM45. I only chose them cause they were the only 45 option. They'll run in my Para's and Cbob if not the PM45 but I was hoping they would. I don't carry reload for CCW anyhow so it's not the end of the world if they don't work but I'll surely be spending some time figuring out why they don't. Don't make sense unless the cartridge is just too long or something.

[dusty10]

Thanks for recommendations on ammo. Now I'm going to clean her up for next range visit, hopefully Friday. Did I say I really like this gun?

[O'Dell]

I'm shooting GS's in my PM45 and the rest of my 45's. No problems with them, but I would prefer GD's or HST's. I got a buy on 1000 rounds of GS's a few months ago, but haven't been able to find a good sale on GD's or HST's. However, I've got plenty of both in 9mm. Need to get the PM9 so I'll have something that will shoot the 9mm.

[earle8888]

Had some discussions with a couple of guy's that kill people for a living, outside the USA. They stated that all this discussion about Bullet Performance, especially in Jell, is Madison avenue at its best. They, the professionals stated that they use only truncated full metal jacketed ammo, the heavy-est weight bullets.
When shooting center of mass the odds are you will hit bone or organ, when hit bone that is not stronger than the projectile fractures and does enormous damage. Hopefully, exiting with bone! A head shot is best. Also, noted that truncated bullets are less prone to ricochet that other designs. They stated that the performance of hollow-point bullets was woefully non-functional in real world. A hollow-point bullet performance changes drastically after the cavity is filled with a compressible material such as clothing. End of rambling about their dissertations. Hollywood and hollow point are sexier.

[Bawanna]

I suspect the guys you talked to are playing in a different set of cirmcumstances. Stuff like the Geneva Convention probably applies. Things like overpenetration and taking out civilian non combatants is considered collateral damage and won't end you up in court.
They are correct and I agree that all the hype over this bullet being better than that bullet is exactly that hype.
If your gun feeds em reliably and you can hit stuff you aim at, it's gonna ruin a bad guys day, I don't care what bullet you use.
A few of our overzealous instructors really get hung up on this type of stuff. Some bullets test better after shooting thru glass than others, some better thru heavy clothing but not so good after going thru glass.
So many variables that it makes your head spin.
I have one detective who carries 4 mags full of FMJ in case he has to shoot thru glass.
I'm surprised they haven't come up with a different load for different temperatures, snow, ice, fog. Maybe daylight versus dark. Dark has to be thicker than light right.

[jocko]

I suspect the guys you talked to are playing in a different set of cirmcumstances. Stuff like the Geneva Convention probably applies. Things like overpenetration and taking out civilian non combatants is considered collateral damage and won't end you up in court.
They are correct and I agree that all the hype over this bullet being better than that bullet is exactly that hype.
If your gun feeds em reliably and you can hit stuff you aim at, it's gonna ruin a bad guys day, I don't care what bullet you use.
A few of our overzealous instructors really get hung up on this type of stuff. Some bullets test better after shooting thru glass than others, some better thru heavy clothing but not so good after going thru glass.
So many variables that it makes your head spin.
I have one detective who carries 4 mags full of FMJ in case he has to shoot thru glass.
I'm surprised they haven't come up with a different load for different temperatures, snow, ice, fog. Maybe daylight versus dark. Dark has to be thicker than light right.

one for size. Over on the kt forum back when, some talked alot about having in their magazine a fmj followed by a hp and then by a fmj and hp and so on. Some take scenarios to extrems that can't even be discussed even, that sh-t might have looked good on paper but in reality was not very sound. Course those guys ovber there never missed either, so I guess in their case it was OK.:yo:

[earle8888]

Yep life's a compromise.
Yes collateral damage was a word used in discussion. And Prioritizing. Take out point #1, then deal with Point#2, etc,ect.

[MikeyKahr]

However, I've got plenty of both in 9mm. Need to get the PM9 so I'll have something that will shoot the 9mm.

No need to get a PM9, O'Dell, really. I've got a PM9 here that would surely welcome any and all donations of overstock 9mm that you have. Let me know if you need a mailing address or if you'd rather drop the cases off, that's fine too - your choice.

[Bawanna]

No need to get a PM9, O'Dell, really. I've got a PM9 here that would surely welcome any and all donations of overstock 9mm that you have. Let me know if you need a mailing address or if you'd rather drop the cases off, that's fine too - your choice.

Now thats about the kindest and most considerate offer I've seen on here in minutes. O'Dell, offers like this don't come along every day, I'd jump on it. Ya know when opportunity rings the door bell lag or lose and all that.

[dusty10]

I'm shooting GS's in my PM45 and the rest of my 45's. No problems with them, but I would prefer GD's or HST's. I got a buy on 1000 rounds of GS's a few months ago, but haven't been able to find a good sale on GD's or HST's. However, I've got plenty of both in 9mm. Need to get the PM9 so I'll have something that will shoot the 9mm.


LOL, I did that once. I sold all my 9's and then tried to sell my surplus ammo. Couldn't sell the ammo so I bought a CZ to shoot up the 9mm ammo. I'm still working on shooting up that ammo only now it's with a couple of Kahrs. :cool:

[O'Dell]

Now thats about the kindest and most considerate offer I've seen on here in minutes. O'Dell, offers like this don't come along every day, I'd jump on it. Ya know when opportunity rings the door bell lag or lose and all that.

Yeah, I'm all broken up. Let me think about it............................NO, I'm still getting the PM9.

[O'Dell]

LOL, I did that once. I sold all my 9's and then tried to sell my surplus ammo. Couldn't sell the ammo so I bought a CZ to shoot up the 9mm ammo. I'm still working on shooting up that ammo only now it's with a couple of Kahrs. :cool:

In my case, I didn't sell them - I had a Kahr, S&W, and SIG 9mm stolen. The only 9mm guns I have left are an old C9 car gun and a carbine, neither of which do I shoot often.

[Bawanna]

Yeah, I'm all broken up. Let me think about it............................NO, I'm still getting the PM9.

Good for you. This was actually a test of the guns I gotta have central purchasing system. Had you opted to send the ammo you would have been instructed to tune in to 24/7 reruns of Dr Phil until your normal primal gotta have a PM9 instincts returned.
You passed with flying colors.

[joelotto]

I found this article online....good pics and tips.

Dealing with the Double-Action Trigger (http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/articles/handguns/dealing-with-the-double-action-trigger/)

Dealing With the Double-Action Trigger

By Grant Cunningham (http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/about-us/#GrantCunningham)

Posted: February 25, 2010

The double-action handgun, whether revolver or autoloader, is a great threat management tool. The long, heavy trigger means that accidental discharges under stress are less likely to occur than with a light, short action.

What happens, though, when shooting has to be done? The trigger that requires deliberate action to fire also requires more attention to get good hits when shooting is needed. If that’s the case, what’s the best way to handle the double-action trigger in a self-defense situation?

Trigger Control Is Everything

Over the years, I’ve come to realize that it’s not about the sight picture. Everyone knows what a proper sight picture looks like, and it’s an easy thing to teach to even complete novices. What’s harder is to keep those sights—and the bore of the gun—on target as the round is ignited.

“Focus on the front sight” works not because we lack knowledge of the sight picture, but because the subtle visual cues in that view tell us when our trigger finger is steering the gun off of proper alignment. That allows us to re-establish that alignment on a continuous basis until the round ignites.

That’s great for target shooters, but as we start to focus on the threat, those visual cues disappear. We need to be able to shoot without our finger affecting the gun’s alignment, and it’s harder to do with a double action than a single action.

Not impossible, though!

What To Do With That Finger?

In order to manipulate that heavy action, we need optimal finger placement on the trigger, and that is at the first joint, known in anatomy as the distal interphalangeal joint and usually abbreviated as DIP.

By centering that joint on the trigger face, we get maximum leverage with minimum effort. The finger doesn’t tire as quickly, and the finger movement is smoother. Using the DIP allows us to manipulate the trigger with as little imparted motion to the gun as possible.

Start With the Basics

When I talk about double-action trigger manipulation, I like to use the term stroke—as in a golf stroke. I use this term intentionally and in preference to other terms, because it puts the correct picture in the mind (you’ll see why later).

A trigger stroke, like a golf stroke, consists of two parts: the first is the trigger compression, which fires the gun. The second is the trigger return, which resets the trigger for the next shot.

Once upon a time, double-action shooters were taught to stage the trigger—that is, to pull it back partway, stop, readjust the sights, then restart the trigger to fire the gun. We now realize that this is not practical in the midst of a defensive encounter, and that training in a manner that is not consistent with reality results in lowered performance.

Instead, we train so that the compression is of a consistent speed. Don’t stop or even slow down once the compression has started: keep the trigger finger moving until the gun fires.


http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/media/images/double-action-trigger-1.jpg Proper trigger control results in better double-action shooting at any speed or distance. As I mentioned, compression is only one-half of the trigger stroke. The other half is the return, and it is just as important as the compression. In fact, Jerry Miculek, the world-famous revolver shooter, once said that the return is MORE than half of the trigger stroke!

The goal of a good trigger return is to set us up for the next shot as efficiently as possible. The return should be as smooth as the stroke, and at the same speed as the stroke.

Once the trigger starts moving, it doesn’t stop. The compression/release sequence should not have any interruptions or slow spots. It should feel as though it is one continuous motion—just like a golf swing!

Finally, a Use for That Geometry You Learned in High School!

It’s important to understand that the double-action trigger and your finger are somewhat at odds. The trigger rotates on a pivot and travels not in a straight line, but in an arc. Your finger does the same thing: it pivots at the second finger joint and the tip travels in an arc.

Those arcs are at right angles to each other. The trigger’s arc is in a vertical plane, and the finger’s is in a horizontal plane. What this means is that the trigger, relative to the finger, is rotating away from it. The finger, relative to the gun, is rotating toward it.

Why is this significant? Because it sets the stage for the biggest mistake most people make when shooting double action: milking the trigger.

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/media/images/double-action-trigger-2.jpg Grasping or "milking" the trigger brings the fingertip into contact with the frame, possibly throwing shots off target. As the trigger rotates away from the trigger finger, most people feel a loss of control, as if they don’t have a good hold on the gun. The trigger finger is sliding down and sideways on the face of the trigger, and the natural reaction is to curl the tip of the finger inward, as if preventing the trigger from getting away, or keeping the finger from sliding off.

When this happens, the trigger finger steers the gun to one side. For a right-handed shooter, it usually results in the gun being pulled over to the right as the finger’s arc comes inward, toward the palm, as the sear releases. (This is why I don’t use the term “trigger pull.” The last thing we want to do is pull the gun more!)

Most people see this happening because their sight alignment suffers as the trigger finger steers the gun slightly off target. The usual reaction is to curl the finger so much that the tip contacts the frame, pushing the gun in the opposite direction. Consciously or not, the shooter is trying to equalize the two forces to keep the gun squarely on target.

Getting both of those forces just right on the target range, when you can clearly watch your sights, is easy. Doing it in the face of a determined attack, perhaps in sub-optimal light, is another matter.

Training The Trigger Finger

The solution is to stop the trigger finger from steering the gun in the first place. How do we do that? Believe it or not, it’s pretty simple, but it takes a little conscious effort to retrain the brain.

The key is to let the trigger finger slide across the trigger face. Now that sounds simple enough, but it’s tough to do—at first. It gets easier after just a little dry-fire work.


As the trigger moves backward in compression, pay attention to the way the finger wants to slide. It will want to slide down the trigger face. Let it. It will want to slide sideways, across the trigger face. Again, let it do so.

You may feel as though your finger is going to slide right off the trigger, but it won’t! Compress the trigger, letting the finger slide down and across the trigger face. Pay attention to how it feels, and replicate that feeling with each repetition.

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/media/images/double-action-trigger-3.jpg Letting the finger slide over the face of the trigger eliminates both "steering" and frame interference. After you do this consciously a few times, you’ll discover that the tip of your finger is no longer curling in and touching the frame. You should also notice that your sights are staying locked in alignment on the target. This is because the trigger is now coming straight back and not being steered in any direction.

Do the same thing on the release stroke. Let the finger slide over the trigger as it smoothly resets. The return should be at the same speed as the compression. Watch your sights and do just enough repetition so that your sights don’t move during the return.

The result? Your sights shouldn’t move at all during the complete trigger stroke, either in compression or return. That’s when you know you’ve got it!

How much dry fire is necessary? Not a lot—most people pick this up in just a minute or two. Once you’ve gotten to the point that the trigger is moving without disturbing the sight alignment, any further dry fire is of little use. It’s time to go to the range and do it for real!

By letting the trigger finger move as it needs to over the trigger face, you’ll find that your double-action shooting will become faster and more accurate. Most importantly, it will be so whether you’re carefully watching your sights or not!