Opinion on property damage

[Indigo]

So in my middle class suburban neighborhood last night some "teenagers being teenagers" decided to spraypaint peoples cars and garage doors causing thousands of dollars in property damage. I wasn't one but my neighbors 40,000 dollar car got it in black spraypaint. So this isn't a threat to my life but say I witnessed this on my own property tonight and confronted a 17 year old kid and while pulling a gun on him would be stupid I instead were to full nelson him and dislocate a shoulder while subduing him for police to come.....at what point do I put myself at risk for a lawsuit and I'm on the hook for this moron as opposed to just defending my property? Anybody know any real advice on this? I realize it's not a life and death question but I'm hopping mad and ready to inflict a little southern justice on some idiots. Thanks.

[Jim K]

Wow, Good question. I have no answer to this but I suggest that a camera could be your best friend in this situation. Most cell phones have 'em. Of course, if you are attacked that is something else. I know you have a right to protect your own property but I wonder if it's worth the legal bills.

Make sure there are no witnesses.

Jim K

[koishoes]

In all honesty if some kids were doing that they probably won't be back the following night. If they were to, it's pretty ballsy, but when it comes to kids I think just coming outside would scare them away. You can get in a ton of trouble these days for just touching someone when it comes to kids.

[Indigo]

I agree with you koi that it's unlikely they return immediately. It's a gated type of community where more than likely it's a kid that already lives on my street which increases the likelihood that it does happen again at some point in the near future. It would be completely random if I did run across them as I am comatose at 10 at night but in the off chance it did I'm more of an act first think second kind of person. Would hate to screw myself for the next 7 to 10 years because of some obscure law that protected the criminal.

[rholmes69]

What city in NC? Hope it isn't around me...

Remember with our insane laws and if you live in Cary, you would probably do 20 to life...

[koishoes]

Well said indi, you never know with some of the fine print stuff, especially if the offender is under 18. Say the kid is smashing in the windows on your car, you come out there and beat down on him, call the cops, then end up getting sued by the parents and getting something else because he was 17.

[Bawanna]

We've actually had a multitude of just this sort of thing the last couple years here. We'd catch a bunch responsible and another bunch takes over. The Graffiti, tagging, gang wannabes. Cars are a little more rare except windows smashed, but buildings, fences, public property, especially public restrooms (usually mens). I've dreamed of rolling in on these punks in the act.

On numerous occasions when confronted by a normal person they flee. They do this crap on consecutive nights but usually in different areas of town.

Pictures would be awesome although difficult,usually dark etc, and fast. Displaying your gun without some sort of a clear and present danger to yourself would be a very bad no no. I would confront, I would have my gun but they wouldn't see it. Defense of property at least up here is a very gray area especially stuff outside your home.

Definitely call the police for sure and it may help link your event to other events in your area and maybe help them track the scumbags down. They will also note and report that you did the right thing in calling.

As much as they probably sorely deserve to be shot, don't even consider it for as you suspected you'll be in far more trouble than them.

[wyntrout]

I think that you can shoot them in Texas... tested several times in the past... unless they're "undocumented aliens", in which case the Feds will be after you for violating their "rights".
Wynn:D

[Indigo]

Wilmington area Mr. Holmes. When I say gated I don't mean Tiger Woods gated I just mean you have to hit a code in a box to get in not pass a security check. I work 40 a week like anybody else and as minor as this infraction was in the scheme of things the idea that somebody would destroy what I or my neighbors work hard for infuriated me to the point where I feel if I let my dog out in the middle of the night and ran into one on my lawn I would probably not consider the consequences and end up doing something I regret later. Just curious how others felt. Thanks for the opinions.

[Longitude Zero]

Call 911...take video...I would go outside and let them see me but would take no direct actions. I live in a gated community and if it is the punks in the community it can be hell and years to get them and their families out of your hair.

On the open streets retaliation is very rare, in gated communities it happens far more often than most people know.

[Indigo]

Dead on there Mr. Zero. It's like you have to choose between some out of control pre-columbine teenage kid inflicting pain on your car or your dog. If you protect your car your dog gets set on fire. Man people are nuts.

[Bawanna]

Dead on there Mr. Zero. It's like you have to choose between some out of control pre-columbine teenage kid inflicting pain on your car or your dog. If you protect your car your dog gets set on fire. Man people are nuts.

You didn't mention dog before. They mess with my dog, I'm wasting em! Your absolutely totally right on, people are nuts. The gene pool definitely needs a ride in the maytag with lots and lots of intensified Tide, large load, heavy cycle.

[wyntrout]

Google "Texas homeowner shoots vandal"... lots of hits on this. Texas "Castle Law" extends to your stuff, too. Vandals, burglars, repo men... all have been killed with homeowners exonerated or not charged. "Don't mess with Texans."

Wynn:D

[Indigo]

You didn't mention dog before. They mess with my dog, I'm wasting em! Your absolutely totally right on, people are nuts. The gene pool definitely needs a ride in the maytag with lots and lots of intensified Tide, large load, heavy cycle.


I have 3 of them Bawanna. I would protect them like my own children since their only defense is to lick someone to death.

Wyn, I googled your phrase and got 332,000 hits. I like the sound of Texas justice.

[sonofodin]

When I was stationed in Texas it was talked about alot. I pretty much dont care anymore. I mind my business and dont start no trouble. Come around and start some and see what happens :D

[O'Dell]

I, too, live in a gated community, but so far, this hasn't happened here. There was my break in, but I was targeted in that case. If I saw it happening, I suppose I would try to stop it, but would draw the line at lethal force. I really don't want to spend a lot of time and money defending myself in our lopsided legal system.

[sonofodin]

Agreed Dell. Its a shame that you cant try to do the right thing and stick up for others. It just becomes a long, drawn out legal battle with your neck on the line. It kinda forces people to be selfish and ignore others in need or peril.

[rholmes69]

With the recent change in politcal legislation in NC's state house, you could be in good shape soon. Our liberal house in the past just shelved the castle doctrine law that was approved by most of the state reps. It was held up in committee by a person no longer there. Me thinks we will be on a fast track to having that passed quite quickly. Doesn't answer the question, but at least puts the law on your side if you draw on your property.

[dusty10]

Google "Texas homeowner shoots vandal"... lots of hits on this. Texas "Castle Law" extends to your stuff, too. Vandals, burglars, repo men... all have been killed with homeowners exonerated or not charged. "Don't mess with Texans."

Wynn:D

God Bless Texas.

Consider installing a motion sensitive light/security camera in locations strategic to the perimeter of your house. (ie. driveway, front door, backside of house if large windows there).

In Texas, while you most likely would not be tried in criminal court, you will be spending money in civil court when momma sues you for killing her "good boy who wouldn't hurt a fly and only acts out because he's had a rough childhood."

[Rio Lobo]

Indigo:

Before acting, it would be wise for you to seek the advice of your attorney and also your congressman. Hopefully, NC will enact laws similar to the Castle Doctrine law we have in Texas: For example:

Excerpted from article by MICHAEL E. YOUNG / The Dallas Morning News

Chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code describes deadly force as justified to prevent arson, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night, or to prevent a suspect from fleeing if the property owner "reasonably believes the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury."
"You hear someone stealing something off your front porch. You come out there with a gun, and they're running off. It's nighttime. The law in Texas allows you to shoot them," said former Dallas County prosecutor Toby Shook.


Juries' Leniency

Texas grand juries have traditionally given people carte blanche to take whatever steps they need to keep their property, Mr. Edmonds said. "In the Pasadena case, as egregious as the facts may be," he said, "the law may still excuse that person's conduct."
He pointed to a case near Waco in the 1990s when the owner of a car saw a group of teenagers stealing his hubcaps late one night.
"He shot at them from his apartment and killed one of them" Mr. Edmonds said. "The grand jury no-billed it."

[jlottmc]

God I love this state, glad I came back. I have however done time in NC, (stationed at Cherry Point, Camp Lejeune, and the ole lady is from Caswell County, even have a CHL from that state.) That being said, there you may NOT display a weapon to defend property, you may shoot to stop one of the big 5 (murder, rape, arson, robbery not burglary, etc.) you may NOT use deadly force to reclaim property, and may shoot if they are in the threshold of the building, once inside they must be committing one of the big ones before you may shoot. You folks up that way have some strange laws on the books. As was said (I almost made a big mistake once firing a shot at a thief once), show up, tell them to stop, have the weapon on you, but don't give any indication that it's there, be a good witness, and make the call. If you are in genuine fear for your life, you may stop the threat, but until then your pretty limited in what you can do. Like I said, I love this state.

[dusty10]

+1 on loving Texas but there are some things I'd like to see tweeked in our gun laws like why the heck we can't carry into a church, federal or state building, banks? Open carry would be nice but I wouldn't personally do that. I prefer the element of surprise. The civil trial in a righteous shooting should go away. If the grand jury does not recommend charges be files against you which means you committed no crime in defending life or property, the bad guys family should not be able to sue you in civil court for damages to the memory of their little angel. :puke:

[slowpoke]

I think that you can shoot them in Texas... tested several times in the past... unless they're "undocumented aliens", in which case the Feds will be after you for violating their "rights".
Wynn:D
You can use deadly force to protect you property it Texas but it will be the most expensive shot you ever took.

[Indigo]

I appreciate everyones opinions on this matter. I certainly wouldn't feel guilty shooting someone who broke in my house but this particular matter I feel helpless because if you did catch a kid spray painting and causing 5 grand or more for a new paint job on your car laws protect them more than you unless they try to injure you. Thank you all happy shooting.

Luckily the local law enforcement is now camped out at the end of my street during broad daylight on a school day. That is so obviously going to fix everything!

[jlottmc]

+1 on loving Texas but there are some things I'd like to see tweeked in our gun laws like why the heck we can't carry into a church, federal or state building, banks? Open carry would be nice but I wouldn't personally do that. I prefer the element of surprise. The civil trial in a righteous shooting should go away. If the grand jury does not recommend charges be files against you which means you committed no crime in defending life or property, the bad guys family should not be able to sue you in civil court for damages to the memory of their little angel. :puke:

Banks never have been off limits, nor unposted state buildings (DPS and capital building for example). Areas that are off limits are courts, offices of the courts, correctional facilities, federal buildings (not a state thing but a federal thing), secured area of airports, race tracks, churches are ok if they don't post the sign (it must be verbatim as well) same with hospitals and nursing homes. Also with the Castle Doctrine that we have, there is not likely to be a civil suit if the Grand Jury no bills. Check DPS' website for the most current information. Open carry prohibitions go way back to a deal in Harris County, back in the 1830's.

[jlottmc]

You can use deadly force to protect you property it Texas but it will be the most expensive shot you ever took.

You may use deadly force hear to protect property, but it must be considered reasonable and prudent by an ordinary man. With the Castle Doctrine law that we have, it is highly unlikely that a civil suit goes anywhere if the Grand Jury no bills you, or the DA doesn't file charges.

[O'Dell]

You can use deadly force to protect you property it Texas but it will be the most expensive shot you ever took.

Agreed! There will always be some shyster civil lawyer out there to file suit against you for anything. Mostly, you'll find their ads on the back of telephone books, bus graphics, or on TV. They never really want to go to court because they know the case is frivolous and will be thrown out [unless they can find a very liberal judge], but they're hoping for a settlement. That why, although I do have a JD, I'm for a loser pays system, including both the plaintiff and his lawyer.

BTW, since I started carrying, I've obtained a three million dollar umbrella liability policy.