PM9 with "redneck home cut" factory spring.. [Archive]

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 01:53 PM

Does this mean that all is right in your world and we can quit hearing about the fact that you are scarred to do a little of the most elementary work on a gun? :D

Thanks, smart ass. At least, that's how I take your comment. I wasn't "scared" to cut the spring. I said it was STUPID for Kahr to expect someone to do it at home when they should have send the correct spring ALREADY MODIFIED in the first place. Heck, they didn't even include a single thing saying it needed to be cut. It just simply would not work when trying to lock the slide back. I had to contact them to figure out what was going on and get the flippant comment about, "Oh, that's what our gunsmiths do here". Fine...then DO it there...and have a crap ton of springs already cut and waiting in a bin for shipment... If Kahr keeps effing this up with two versions of the PM9 out there now, their reputation, which AIN'T the greatest in a lot of places, will only suffer.

Unless you've experienced this SPECIFIC PM9 situation, have you EVER had to cut an OEM direct factory replacement spring down on ANY gun you've ever owned to make it work as it should? I'll answer for you... NO...you haven't. :2rolleyes:

jocko

11-13-2010, 02:18 PM

ur right seahawk. I think this is going to be an issue down the road with PM9 owners, as it is evident kahr doesn't have a handle on this yet and one should not expect to have to cut his springs either. Actually because one is longer to most would for me tell me that kahr has made a spring change and it should work, which we know will not. Now what kahr should do is at least put in a printed message explaining to the buyer that this spring might be one or 2 coils longer than ur original coils due to a slide change and that one might have to reduce the length. Not the best solution IMO. I have recommened to kahr that they have a cut off serial number which they would know what that is also and any recoil spring order over this serial number will get the longer spring,, but this being said, it must be printed in the manual where one will see if first hand.
When i order a part from any gun company, I do not expect to have to modify it to make it work.
Same thing here for now ordering recoil springs from wolffs for the new slide PM9. they as of now do not offer a spring for it. We cannot also expect a new buyer of a kahr that gets the new longer slide to even know that indeed there is now two different length PM9 slides and therefore two different length recoil springs. No doubt 90% of all kahr owners don't even visit these gun forums...

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 02:24 PM

ur right seahawk. I think this is going to be an issue down the road with PM9 owners, as it is evident kahr doesn't have a handle on this yet and one should not expect to have to cut his springs either.

Yes, this WILL be an issue if Kahr doesn't get straight. They should be in DEFAULT "old spring" mode right now with the VAST majority of the PM9 springs being ordered/replaced will be for older guns for quite some time to come. How many years has the PM9 been available? How long has the "new" PM9 been available? As far as I could tell, maybe 6 months...if that long...

Now what kahr should do is at least put in a printed message explaining to the buyer that this spring might be oneor 2 coils longer than ur original coils due to a slide change and that one might have to reduce the length. Exactly... And, this would have saved them sending me two additional spring/recoil guide rod assemblies and me thinking their customer service was out-to-lunch because they kept sending me the "wrong" spring. Apparently, Kahr thought the same thing because they sent two more before giving me the "just cut it down" garbage... I even stated the year of manufacture and serial number range of my PM9 in every email. A PM9 in the VAxxxx range is definitely OLD. And, I was dealing with the SAME customer service rep all along. :crazy:

Oh well, now I have three brand new spares. And before *someone* starts biiitching again... NO, Kahr did not ask me to send the other two back and I'll keep them for my troubles, thank ya very much... :cool:

jocko

11-13-2010, 02:38 PM

no one is bitching either. Kahr will get it right--sooner or later..I do sense a slight "chip on the ol shoulder" and for me it is not needed on this forum, Most all are here to help and to add to this forum including yourself. Lighten up alittle and enjoy this forum and the great group we have here.

O'Dell

11-13-2010, 02:41 PM

Thanks, smart ass. At least, that's how I take your comment. I wasn't "scared" to cut the spring. I said it was STUPID for Kahr to expect someone to do it at home when they should have send the correct spring ALREADY MODIFIED in the first place. Heck, they didn't even include a single thing saying it needed to be cut. It just simply would not work when trying to lock the slide back. I had to contact them to figure out what was going on and get the flippant comment about, "Oh, that's what our gunsmiths do here". Fine...then DO it there...and have a crap ton of springs already cut and waiting in a bin for shipment... If Kahr keeps effing this up with two versions of the PM9 out there now, their reputation, which AIN'T the greatest in a lot of places, will only suffer.

Unless you've experienced this SPECIFIC PM9 situation, have you EVER had to cut an OEM direct factory replacement spring down on ANY gun you've ever owned to make it work as it should? I'll answer for you... NO...you haven't. :2rolleyes:

I have to agree as a near future purchaser of a 'new' PM9. My experience with Kahr CS has always been exemplary, but I have had no contact in the 'post Ian' days. They definitely need to get a handle on it.

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 02:43 PM

no one is bitching either.

Oh yes, there was "bitching" about how I didn't send the other springs/guide rods back once I got one that was FINALLY, ahem, "correct".

I then promptly shut them down by stating that Kahr never asked them back and others even commented on how that's very often "ops normal" for companies when it comes to small/inexpensive parts. In other words, don't inconvenience the customer and demand he send them back on his own time/dime. Go read the other thread again. :2rolleyes:

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 02:49 PM

I have to agree as a near future purchaser of a 'new' PM9. My experience with Kahr CS has always been exemplary, but I have had no contact in the 'post Ian' days. They definitely need to get a handle on it.

I will say that Kahr (Jay, in particular) was very prompt in answering my emails and sending out the parts...just not properly functioning "factory QA'd" parts. Apparently, he was a bit "misguided". At any rate, after sending me three "wrong" spring assemblies, he finally got up the gumption to, I don't know... Actually go TALK to the gunsmiths and see WTF was going on. That's when he told me they told him they just cut them down "in house". But, they couldn't seem to manage to do that three times over, in my case, for some strange reason...

Anyhoo, I received very fast and "good" service from Kahr, even if it was incorrect at the get-go and then some. But, they did, finally, fix it in the end and I do appreciate it. :D

jlottmc

11-13-2010, 04:19 PM

Thanks, smart ass. At least, that's how I take your comment. I wasn't "scared" to cut the spring. I said it was STUPID for Kahr to expect someone to do it at home when they should have send the correct spring ALREADY MODIFIED in the first place. Heck, they didn't even include a single thing saying it needed to be cut. It just simply would not work when trying to lock the slide back. I had to contact them to figure out what was going on and get the flippant comment about, "Oh, that's what our gunsmiths do here". Fine...then DO it there...and have a crap ton of springs already cut and waiting in a bin for shipment... If Kahr keeps effing this up with two versions of the PM9 out there now, their reputation, which AIN'T the greatest in a lot of places, will only suffer.

Unless you've experienced this SPECIFIC PM9 situation, have you EVER had to cut an OEM direct factory replacement spring down on ANY gun you've ever owned to make it work as it should? I'll answer for you... NO...you haven't. :2rolleyes:

Wanna bet? Then again I got my secondary MOS as an armorer, and I've done my own smithing for as long as I can remember. I've had to shorten many a spring like that, and it's not just the PM9. Hell I've had to do that long before Kahr came about. The other side is that I have just once used a makers customer service, and that was just because I didn't have the tools to recrown a barrel or the time to do it. But hey, that's how it goes.

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 04:21 PM

I've had to shorten many a spring like that, and it's not just the PM9.

What firearm(s) have you had to do this with when using a DIRECT FACTORY REPLACEMENT spring? Be honest...

And, I'm not talking about esoteric military firearms, machine guns, etc that the public cannot readily purchase. :2rolleyes:

jlottmc

11-13-2010, 04:30 PM

Let's see there have been a pile of believe it or not 1911's that I have built. I've had several Beretta's need work even with OEM parts. There have been a couple of Luger's that I've built. Come to think of it many guns do that. It's never been that big a deal, just fix it and move on. I have also had to shorten main springs on a few revolvers as well. None are prohibited for sale to civilians as well. Then there have been rifles (yes even the bolt actions) and yes military weapons. Some times you just have to make it work, and make sure it stays working. By your logic, I should never have had to polish a feed ramp, or bearing surfaces, or adjust a trigger. I mean after all the factory should have sent it ready to shoot some hollow points that you could come in from the rain with. Most guns require a certain degree of fitting to make them right, and that's part of the bonding process. But then again, I look at things a little different.

Bawanna

11-13-2010, 04:37 PM

Don't make me come down there you two! I'm tired, I'm hungry and I'm thinking about Vegas gun shows. I don't have time for this.

One face north, the other face south and start walking.

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 04:38 PM

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 04:39 PM

Don't make me come down there you two! I'm tired, I'm hungry and I'm thinking about Vegas gun shows. I don't have time for this.

Then go away, avert your eyes, change the "channel", etc. ;)

Bawanna

11-13-2010, 04:41 PM

Then go away, avert your eyes, change the "channel", etc. ;)

Consider that done. Gbye

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 04:43 PM

Consider that done. Gbye

Hey man...you were the one who came in playing "moderator" trying to be all "cute"...with nothing of substance to add... Jus' sayin'...

wagon

11-13-2010, 04:58 PM

I would certain hope that Kahr would be able to identify old/new version based on serial # hence they can accurately provide the correct replacement parts.

Seems like something just never change in Kahr .. but gotta give them credit that at least they are consistent: version control is outta control.

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 05:44 PM

I would certain hope that Kahr would be able to identify old/new version based on serial # hence they can accurately provide the correct replacement parts.

You'd think it would be easy enough, especially when the customer provides the serial number up front, as I did, so they don't have to ask for it. But, I guess it wasn't "easy" in my case...several times... :2rolleyes:

MikeyKahr

11-13-2010, 06:24 PM

Hey Seahawk60. I'm not sure I get what you found disturbing about Kahr CS, could you explain it one more time? :faint2:

wyntrout

11-13-2010, 06:52 PM

Maybe we can get R. Lee to talk to him... bring a hanky with him. :19::hurt:

Maybe it's something to do with his Navy Rotorhead background. Everything has to be just right for one of those unnatural things to get off the ground.:boink:

Dang! I would be happy to have a longer spring than needed. I can always shorten one, but it's hard to make one longer. :D All you need is a reliable coil count... one that you're sure of... good photos are nice... and a pair of wire cutters... then maybe stone the cut end a bit.:2rolleyes:

Why all the fuss for so long?:behindsofa: Wynn:D

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 09:00 PM

Hey Seahawk60. I'm not sure I get what you found disturbing about Kahr CS, could you explain it one more time? :faint2:

Would you be okay if you ordered something in a restaurant and they got it wrong three times in a row? And, did NOT explain why until you basically had to go back and talk to the chef yourself? Same kind of thing...

tdperry23

11-13-2010, 09:40 PM

at least kahr is now admitting they have a problem now after i ordered my spring i talked ian 3 times trying to get the right spring. i was sent 2 springs and told the last time that i called by a gunsmith at kahr i might want to try shortening the spring. well i took his advice and shortened the spring until i could lock the slide back but by the time that happened i was at 10 coils and now the slide velocity is rather high. so lesson learned i just put the second spring in and do not lock the slide open and at some point i will send my early version pm9 in and let kahr fix and or update it to the latest and greatest but for now it is working as is.

OldLincoln

11-13-2010, 09:52 PM

Maybe they would get the message if you cut 4 loops off and told them opps, you're not a gunsmith so send you more springs.

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Jocko is right tho, they will eventually get it right.

MikeyKahr

11-13-2010, 10:15 PM

Would you be okay if you ordered something in a restaurant and they got it wrong three times in a row? And, did NOT explain why until you basically had to go back and talk to the chef yourself? Same kind of thing...

I would initially be perturbed a bit, but realize it was simply an inconvenience. Then it would probably take on a level of comic relief after the third time, most likely, and I would laugh it off as just one of those days. I definitely would not waste my time and go back to the chef and talk to him. However, I would quietly and without much fanfare let the manager and/or owner know what happened on my way out. I would also thankfully accept the gracious offer of a free meal or voucher or reimbursement that they would offer to make up for their mistakes. Then, I'd go on my way. Move on. Let go. Release and be free of it and not dwell over and over about it, realizing life is too short!!

Things that I would not do - I wouldn't station myself at the entrance of the restaurant day after day describing in fine detail what happened to my meal that other day and warn that the same can happen to other's meals. I wouldn't go to each and every booth letting each customer know what happened and ask them all if they thought I got bad service. I wouldn't ask all of them how ridiculous it all was. Again, life is too short. But I guess that's just me.

Seahawk60

11-13-2010, 10:20 PM

Then, I'd go on my way.

Yeah, I'm sure if you got parts over and over again for your every day carry pistol you RELY on, and those parts made it NOT function as it should, you'd just fuggin' "go on your way" and forget about it, right? :2rolleyes:

jocko

11-14-2010, 05:50 AM

Yeah, I'm sure if you got parts over and over again for your every day carry pistol you RELY on, and those parts made it NOT function as it should, you'd just fuggin' "go on your way" and forget about it, right? :2rolleyes:

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

jocko

11-14-2010, 06:01 AM

Kahr will I am sure get this mix up taken care of but in the mean time, they should:

When a recoil spring assembly and extra recoil springs are ordered, and the part number is used in the catalog, they should send the old style set up, for lets face it, there are probably 200,000 of those PM9 out there with the standard slide (non beveled) Where as I would bet we don't have 5000 of the yet new style slide PM9's out there. go with the percentages until this thing is solved correctly.

Then they need to reprint their new owners manual and also update their obselete webb site that in the manual and on the webb site it will show the new vs old style PM9 slides and the correct spring order numbers for each one.

They seem to be able to show a photo of the old style slides with the different dovetail cuts in them no reason why they can't address this.

their manual is outdated especially for the new PM9 version. I do think they will address this stuff to but in the mean time, no doubt one is going to get the wrong springs unless he is reading this forum and knows how to call kahr and tell them exactly what springs he needs. THERE SHOULD BE NO ONWER CHOPPING
HIS SPRINGS TO MAKE THEM WORK.

Now I am probably just as bad on this particular thread as I have over done it also but I have tried to add some constructive adjectives to my post, but for me we have beat this horse totally to death and some of the later posts are starting to show their teeth, and that is not the purpose of this forum. Count to 10, go in and take a good dump, pull up a good six pack today and watch the Colts win at Indy.

Seahawk60

11-14-2010, 08:27 AM

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/AlbertD/CostanzaPopcorn.gif

jocko

11-14-2010, 09:23 AM

cool. Loved that guy when he was on seinfeld...

wyntrout

11-14-2010, 10:04 AM

Dang... I'm feeling ignored and unloved.... <sniff>

Wynn:behindsofa:

Bawanna

11-14-2010, 11:36 AM

Dang... I'm feeling ignored and unloved.... <sniff>

Wynn:behindsofa:

Why my good friend do you feel ignored and unloved. I love you. Dang, just smashed my fingers coming out of the closet. But not in any unnatural mano mano sort of way ya know. TD2K did accept my proposal so this kind of talk could really have a negative impact on our relationship.
Is it the lack of flamethrowing rebuttals to your insightful jabs?

Ya know what? I'm packing up and heading to the range. It's time, I gota few bullets and I need it for mental stability or as close to stability as is attainable in my condition.

I'll beee bach.

jlottmc

11-14-2010, 11:46 AM

Sorry, jlottmc... Guns you built are not commercial off-the-shelf products. Of COURSE you're going to have to "massage" parts. That doesn't count... And, you are taking this way off course. I'm not talking about doing a "fluff and buff" polish type job. I've had to do some smoothing myself before, as well.

I'm talking about simply replacing a RECOIL SPRING in a commercially and readily available pistol. Capice? Anyone ELSE ever have a problem of a factory "drop in" recoil spring not working? :rolleyes:

They all started as factory off the shelf guns that were not perfect off the shelf. For what ever reason you want to believe many guns are not perfect off the shelf. It's not that big a deal to have to do some minor fitting, or polishing or work to make them right. I've even had grips and stocks that needed work to make them right. It's part of the bonding process. I dare say that anything that is mass produced will need something to make it right. Factories are great at churning out a bunch of their product, just not so great with quality control. Deal with it and move on.

wyntrout

11-14-2010, 12:14 PM

I was just trying to rattle Seahawk60's cage a bit... rotorcraft being unnatural for flight and all.

Just got off the phone with Cabela's... tried to order online to use that $30 off $150 or more to order some Buffalo Bore .380 ACP +P 95-grain FMJ-Flat point ammo for "Winter" use... not that I think it's needed in Florida, but headed up Illinois way where it's colder for Thanksgiving.

That $30 offer ends the 16th and their online system was just overhauled and not working at 100%, yet. The phone works and the lady sounded sweet and friendly.

Wynn:D

jocko

11-14-2010, 12:18 PM

They all started as factory off the shelf guns that were not perfect off the shelf. For what ever reason you want to believe many guns are not perfect off the shelf. It's not that big a deal to have to do some minor fitting, or polishing or work to make them right. I've even had grips and stocks that needed work to make them right. It's part of the bonding process. I dare say that anything that is mass produced will need something to make it right. Factories are great at churning out a bunch of their product, just not so great with quality control. Deal with it and move on.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

kramm

11-14-2010, 01:28 PM

Seahawk60

11-14-2010, 01:40 PM

Just got off the phone with Cabela's... tried to order online to use that $30 off $150 or more to order some Buffalo Bore .380 ACP +P 95-grain FMJ-Flat point ammo for "Winter" use... not that I think it's needed in Florida, but headed up Illinois way where it's colder for Thanksgiving.

Hope you're not thinking about carrying (unless HR 218 applies) in Ill-annoy... :eek:

wyntrout

11-14-2010, 01:46 PM

I'll have to think about it, for sure... "Big Boy" rules apply. :)

Gotta run get some groceries. Glad you're still here.... maybe chilled out a bit.:boink:
Wynn:yo: :hippie:

jocko

11-14-2010, 02:18 PM

I can understand getting upset when you order parts and their not right. Kahr seem s to have dropped the ball on this issue. That being said, myself ,i wouldn't have minded snipping off the spring to make it work. But I like tinkering anyway. Kahr should have at least sent something advising the spring may have to be trimmed. jmho:2rolleyes:

not just order a recoil spring from kahr and let them just grab into the spring barrel and send what ever they want and then I have to figure out what the hell to do. Wouldn't the proper thing to do is to have a part number for recoil springs and also the entire captive recoil rod assembly for the two different PM9 slides.

What is a fella gonna do if he orders a complete recoil assembly for his PM9 and gets sent the one with the longer slide. U can't shorten the recoil assembly. As much as I know kahr will get this right, lets not alibi for them .:crazy: If one goes to the kahr webb site and hits on the pM9 parts lists, It merely shows recoil springs and recoil assembly for PM9 no indication to which slide it will fit nor any indication in print for a owner to even know there is a difference...

Seahawk60

11-14-2010, 03:32 PM

What is a fella gonna do if he orders a complete recoil assembly for his PM9 and gets sent the one with the longer slide. U can't shorten the recoil assembly.

Good point and definitely true. I wasn't going to bring that up since some people were already having a hard time comprehending why being sent three factory OEM replacement springs that wouldn't function properly was just somehow not acceptable, now matter HOW simple the "fix". :D

With one of those spring assemblies, Kahr did send me an inner recoil spring/guide rod assembly that was too long. Instead of correctly being flush with the front of the slide, it stuck out by exactly the same amount as the thickness of the retaining "nut" that's screwed on to the end of the guide rod and captures the inner recoil spring and plunger. The other two guide rod assemblies were fine.