If paper targets broke in my house...

[Indigo]

They would be in deep trouble if I pull out my P45's, not so much with my K9's. As a matter of fact I stink with those in comparison. I have regular sights on those but three dot night sights on my 45's. I woke up early Sunday for a spirited romp outdoors while most people are in bed or church and put 200 through K9 and 150 through P45. I could barely hit 12" target at 45 feet with K9 (all on target but around the edge) but with 45 very little goes outside an 8" circle. So if I go up to 25 feet K9 accuracy right on. Anybody have any suggestions on the discrepancy? I would think it would be the other way around. All suggestions welcome both good and bad. Real bad guys last time I checked didn't come from tree pulp.

[jocko]

strange, but I can't believe it is the reason either but your k( has a 1/2" trigger travel where as ur P45 has the 3/8" trigger pull and maybe in ur case that difference is effecting your accuracy. Qite the opposite with my K9 vs my PM9. I am much better witht he K9..
Some people just shoot certain guns better also.

[Indigo]

You could be on to something there I knew about the trigger pull difference but had chalked it up to just different sights. I'm sending them for the three dot night sights I should have them switch up the trigger too. Thanks for the tip. I have a P9 that's pretty accurate with shorter trigger and it never dawned on me.

[jocko]

nopt sure I would spend that extramoney to do that, the K9 NYPDF trigger is one super trigger or it would not be in there. My bet is that you just need to work on the K9 more. They are shoorters and 95% of all K9 out there have the NYPD trigger in them. I have said before that I can't tellthe difference between the two even. certainly not a chaper made system either but More than likely willcost you over a $100+ to make that change over. I think I would go with the sight change thing first.

I shoot the eyes out my targets at 7 yards withmy G19 glock after I put on a set of Dawson adjustable fiber optic sights where as Idon't shoot either of my kahrs (K9 kand pM9) a 5th as good at that distance. Some guns fit abnd shoot better than others.
I think you even answered what I have stated beofee. I bet you didn't actually know the difference or could feel the difference in the two trigger systems on your kahrs...

[Indigo]

nopt sure I would spend that extramoney to do that, the K9 NYPDF trigger is one super trigger or it would not be in there. My bet is that you just need to work on the K9 more. They are shoorters and 95% of all K9 out there have the NYPD trigger in them. I have said before that I can't tellthe difference between the two even. certainly not a chaper made system either but More than likely willcost you over a $100+ to make that change over. I think I would go with the sight change thing first.

I shoot the eyes out my targets at 7 yards withmy G19 glock after I put on a set of Dawson adjustable fiber optic sights where as Idon't shoot either of my kahrs (K9 kand pM9) a 5th as good at that distance. Some guns fit abnd shoot better than others.
I think you even answered what I have stated beofee. I bet you didn't actually know the difference or could feel the difference in the two trigger systems on your kahrs...

Jocko I'd like to pick your brain if I may. I had assumed NYPD trigger was really more of some kind of "assurance" that NYPD don't have any misfires in order to make people feel safer because of lawsuits against police for excessive force. In reality, I can squeeze K9 trigger slightly then put my finger behind trigger and push it back back forward. This doesn't happen in my P pistols. However, when you fire and trigger resets your finger pressure on trigger prevents it from moving all the way forward instead it resets at the slightly back point. So my question now becomes is that little bit of play the NY eighth inch or is there actually an extra distance in addition to that where you have to exert effort? Because if that little bit of loose play IS the extra eighth inch then it only applies to first shot and not the next seven. So then does that extra eighth inch really apply on every trigger pull or is it just something designed to make people in NYC feel warm and fuzzy?

[jocko]

I can't answer that question. I have to go by what kahr states if the difference in the two trigger systems and I don't know how they measure it either but I am going to assume they know what they are doing. The elite is 3/8" travel where as the NYPD is 1/2" travel. The internals are the same just the dimensions of how the trigger hole is drillled is different in order to give more or less travel. It is not a cheap system by any means. One of the reasons NYPD wanted that kahr that way was when they went to the Glocks many years ago they required glock to adapt the nypd trigger into their glocks as they knew their officers were at that time going from the wheel gun with long double action pull to a now semi auto which was new to the NYPD and they wanted that feel and some travel to be like the revolvers. Course we know that the NYPD like special ops people think they hav eto have a different gun that what the general public can buy..

As far as trigger reset on your kahr K9 and P45, I would think there should be no difference. The resets would be the same I would think.

another thing to consider is if you get some different sights put on your kahr, all you need to do is send in the slide which u can send regular mail fopr around $5, but if u change the trigger system then the lower portion which also has the serial number on it cannot go regular mail and expect to pay to and from between 60 and 70$ just in postage.

Now if your gonna keep the gun and love it and feel that it will maker u a better shooter, then that is a decision u have to make but I can assure u, you will not see a dime in return on that gun if you try to trade or sell it. It won't add any return value to you. something to just consider.

If the NYPD trigger was such a bad trigger, they would not have done it and again I can tell you that most new kahr buyers who have not been on these forums know no difference between the elite and nypd triggers..as u know there is no staging of a kahr trigger system. It is smooth until it goes bang, not that u can't pull it part ways back to sorta stage it but unlike my G19 which is tuned. I have a certain spot where I feel it kinda stage itself. Not so with a kahr.I shouldn't train to shoot that way anyways either.

I'm not here to try to say not to do it. It is ur money,ur call, u certainly are not going to lower the performance of the gun either and who knows in your case it might just be the answer to your group differences.

U gotta remember your shootin two different guns and two different calibers when you made that comparision of ur groups..

[Warhammer]

For the record, the "NYPD trigger" was NOT designed for or by the NYPD.

All Kahrs originally came with a standard 1/2" length of pull (LOP) trigger at a pull weight of about 8 lbs. They all use a 6 lb Wolff striker spring (remember that for later).

In 1998, Kahr offered it first Elite model, the "Elite 98", which has a trigger with the same pull weight as the standard trigger, but a 1/8" shorter LOP. This came to be known as the "Elite trigger." Also in 1998, the NYPD approved the K9 for it's officers to carry as and off-duty weapon.

In 2001, Kahr rolled out it's first polymer model. They decided to use the "Elite trigger" as the standard trigger for Kahr's entire poly line.

In 2003, the T line was introduced, which also used the "Elite trigger" rather than the standard trigger. Kahr also offered it's second and last Elite model, the "Elite 2003", that year.

Finally, Kahr decided to eliminate the old standard trigger completely, in favor of the shorter "Elite trigger." However, NYPD did not approve of this change. So, in order to keep that market open, Kahr renamed the old standard trigger the "NYPD trigger" and offered it on select models with an "n" designation on the end of the model number. The current standard tirgger is what used to be called the "Elite trigger."

Both triggers still have the same pull weight of about 8 lbs (Kahr says "between 7.5 and 9 lbs"), using the same 6 lbs striker spring made by Wolff. So, if you really want to improve the standard (or NYPD) trigger on your Kahr without wasting a lot of money, just install a Wolff 5 lbs striker spring. You'll be amazed at the improvement and you'll only have to spend $3.49 and 5 minutes of installation time to get it.

[jocko]

warhammer is certainly right about the wolffs 5# striker spring. I have had them in my PM9 and K9 since I bought them. A very inexpensive quick change mod that will help. and NO u won't get light strikes from it either. My 5# striker breaks at around 5.5#. Warhammer ur probably right in the 1/2" thing to. It might have indeed been their first trigger system but it is called the NYPD trigger today due to that is the only way that gun is approved for off duty officers and still today 90% of K9 have the NYPD system in them..

thanks for correcting my error..

[Warhammer]

My 1996 K40 has the old (NYPD) trigger, too. I was thinking about converting it to the Elite trigger when I learned about the Wolff 5# striker spring. I figured it was worth a try since it costs less than $4. After installing it, I liked the results so much that I saw no point in spending the time and money to get the Elite trigger. Just like jocko said, I've had no problems with light strikes in the 5 or so years since I switched to the 5# spring.

[Indigo]

Thank you for your suggestions. When I was blabbering about my assumption as to why NYPD trigger was longer I certainly wasn't purporting any of it to be fact it is what it is...my assumption only. I was suggesting that there is an outward public relations reason and then likely a behind the scenes contributing reason as well. But I don't really know anything I just like to shoot holes in stuff and that particular trigger does seem to be the logical culprit since my paper bad guys don't stand a chance with my polymers. Have a good day all and again thank you for the history lessons. Now I can pass off all your knowledge elsewhere as my own so people think I'm smart.

[jocko]

I did some research inside of kahr on the NYPD trigger and this is the answer I got from someone very high up with Kahr when I asked if the K9 was originally made with the longer 1/2" trigger. For the record.

His reply:Nope! The NYPD Trigger was designed specifically for NYPD. They wanted a longer trigger pull for safety reasons.

[Bawanna]

I did some research inside of kahr on the NYPD trigger and this is the answer I got from someone very high up with Kahr when I asked if the K9 was originally made with the longer 1/2" trigger. For the record.

His reply:Nope! The NYPD Trigger was designed specifically for NYPD. They wanted a longer trigger pull for safety reasons.

There was a thread long ago around here that pretty much said what you just said also. As I recall the aforementioned safety issues were never confirmed and were attributed with some bureaucratic snafu's within the NYPD hiearchy. They messed up (big surprise) and wanted to bail themselves out by blaming Kahr. Didn't pan out for them.

Nice to have a man high up on the inside. Thanks Jocko.

[jocko]

Kahr neverput the NYPD trigger in the K40, so if one has it in there it had to be something was sent back for that modification. To my knowledge only the K9 ever had the NYPD trigger.

[Indigo]

Thanks Jocko now I look like I halfway have a brain. (The other half is just wadded up newspaper) I will be doing the wolf spring thing thanks to you and the other person for the suggestion.

[jocko]

Thank you for your suggestions. When I was blabbering about my assumption as to why NYPD trigger was longer I certainly wasn't purporting any of it to be fact it is what it is...my assumption only. I was suggesting that there is an outward public relations reason and then likely a behind the scenes contributing reason as well. But I don't really know anything I just like to shoot holes in stuff and that particular trigger does seem to be the logical culprit since my paper bad guys don't stand a chance with my polymers. Have a good day all and again thank you for the history lessons. Now I can pass off all your knowledge elsewhere as my own so people think I'm smart.

that different trigger might just help you, but I think I would spend the $4 and do what warhammer suggested. changing the trigger poundage might just do the same thing as changing a 1/8" difference, which most cannot tell one way or the other. Most K9 shooters that report excellent groups with their K9 are shooting the NYPD trigger system. Most probably don't even know the difference. Guarantee u one thing those clowns in a gander mt, certainlty don't know the difference between the nypd trigger and the elite. I think most people and that includes alot on this forum to think when kahr says "elite" trigger that that is some wonder trigger. Had kahr said we also offer the non NYPD trigger also yadda yadda, people would more than likely feel wha tthey have is just as good..:der:

[koishoes]

Aaah, so the K40 ships with a 3/8in trigger? THAT would explain why I thought my K9 longer when I was handling a K40. :D

[Foggy]

Although my reply is many months after the original post I'm still gonna give you my .02 worth for any new readers to this matter. I have an original K9 (1995) and even though I had always liked the gun I was never really in love with it. Three reasons: I couldn't stand the trigger, its finish was horrible and the slide was terribly stiff. After many years of it being an also ran in my collection I finally decided to do something about it. I did a little research and here is what I found. Kahr changed to a 20 lb. recoil spring so I ordered one up from Wolff along with the 5 lb. striker spring. Nice improvement to racking the slide but the trigger still wasn't there yet. Sent the gun to Robar and had them put in an elite trigger and do a trigger job, refinished the gun with Rogard on the frame, everything else in NP3. They also bullnosed the front of the slide, dehorned, polished the chamber & feed ramp, throated the barrel, rounded the trigger face a bit, beveled the mag opening. Now the difference is WOW. Night and day. This gun went from ok to about as good as a Kahr can get. Everyone that has seen it and shot it just absolutely drools over it. Me included. Money well spent. When we started the project I told them do the trigger work 1st & if it didn't turn out really sweet to cancel the rest of the mods. I can assure you the trigger is the most awesome part of everything they did. So does that 1/8" less pull make a difference? To me, along with a good smithing, YES. I cannot say enough about the professionalism of the people @ Robar Guns. Robbie Barrkman and his crew are really top notch in the industry. I could not be happier ...