Range Report: A few hiccups

[koishoes]

I just got back from the range today, put about 250 rounds through the K9.
As mentioned in another post, I had a broken slide stop which prevented lock back on empty mags which I called Kahr about that they quickly responded to and sent me a new one no questions asked :) thumbs up to Kahr!

However, within the session I experienced about 6-8 stovepipes and about 4-6 failure to extracts :spider: On top of that the ejection was totally erratic. Sometimes the brass was thrown totally horizontally to the right (and not very far), sometimes at a desired 45 degree angle but either far or really short, and often straight vertically either hitting me in the head or not getting thrown far at all and jamming in the action. I had contacted Kahr early Monday morning about peening and extractor issues before the range test and received a prompt response that morning :D

I just sent them pictures of some of the physical stuff I'm noticing as well as a range report. Regardless of the issues, I have no doubt Kahr will be a big help as they always are :yo: . I'll post updates when available.

[jocko]

hwo about the recoil spring? Is it on witht ehopen end towards the front of the slide. Maybe try a new recoil spring to see if this helps any. I assme it wa snot doing this before the original slide stop broke???

[koishoes]

Before the broken slide stop, I'm not sure (I bought this gun used but with apparently low miles :D aside from the slide stop which was surely broken when I purchased it). The recoil spring IS installed with the closed end to the rear and open end forward. I actually just installed a new Wolff striker and recoil spring, the recoil spring rated at stock/20lbs.

I got an email back from Kahr this morning saying all the peening was normal but asking about what brand ammo I was using when I was having the extraction issues. It's possible that because the recoil spring is new that it's slowing the slide down so much that brass isn't getting thrown properly (it's all based on timing, right? ;)) but after 250 rounds you'd think stuff would loosen up and set.

Who knows.

I was using Federal Champion 115gn FMJs but that's what I normally use. Meh. We'll see what Kahr thinks. If they say everything is normal I might just replace the extractor and front extractor pin myself to see if that changes anything. When they sent me a new slide stop that fixed the previous problem I was having in a jiffy.

Props to Kahr though for their speedy responses to the email :yo:

[jocko]

I would not have put the wolffs strike rin that kahr. It is different than what kahr has in their gun. Wolffs puts a striker springin with about every spring set they sell for any gun, but 99% never use it. Go back to the kahr spring if u still have it. I shoot federal 115 fmj from wal mart and they work perfecrt. It is not the ammo at all. . That peening was, that on the outter tip of the chamber area where it comes to a point on the right side. If so, indeed just take a file and smooth that little burr out and polish it and it will never appear again. Many burr up in that area as that little pointed area gets banged with the brass leaving the gun . Mine did that on my P380 and PM9 but once I smoothed out that little burr it never happened again. That 20# recoil spring is IMO perfect to, it is not the issue.
If it is shootng, feeding and extracting OK but not throwing the brass maybe where u want it, I think as the recoil springs weakens a tad it might help, or also u can go to the next heavier size wolffs recoil spring and see if that changes the direction any. U are right handed shooter aren't u??

[koishoes]

Yep, right handed.

I already threw the stock striker spring and recoil spring back in (in case I have to return the gun to Kahr). However, the Kahr rep is sending me a new recoil spring anyway to throw in and try to see if it helps (I told them I already had a new recoil spring but didn't say it was a Wolff spring).

Wouldn't a heavier recoil spring slow the cycling down and throw the brass slower? I do like the wolff 20# recoil spring though because I like a firmer lockup on a gun.

So Jocko-
Why do you recommend not putting in the Wolff striker spring? I actually do like the stock spring that was in it as it seems it have me a lighter and smoother trigger pull, seeing that the Wolff striker spring seemed heavier.

[Bawanna]

Kahr springs are Wolffe springs so your not switching brands or anything.

As well as speed during the action cycle, timing is critical also, so slowing the slide coming back could be beneficial sometimes, or not. As Jocko is fond of saying you just need to eliminate the variables.

I'm not sure what the difference would be he refers to on the striker spring, should be the same.

[Jim K]

Koishoes,

Here are a few things you can try to see if you can spot the problem yourself:

Remove the recoil spring and reassemble the pistol. Move the slide to see if there is any kind of bind. Maybe that new slide stop needs a little tweaking with a Jewelers file.

Check the ejector. The bottom of the ejector bevel should be level with the top of the frame rail. Side to side wiggleage is normal. Up and down is not.

Do a crude check of the extractor. Slip a cartridge uder the extractor from the bottom side. It should go in easily and the extractor should have enough tension to hold the cartridge against gravity. Try it with different brands of ammo. There should be no brand sensitivity here. Remove the cartridge and use a brass key to check the action of the extractor. It should have some movement to allow for variations in cartridge rim size. A more accurate check can be done with a Weigand extractor tension gauge and a trigger pull guage. (Brownells) 32-40 Oz. works best.
Examine every part of the barrel, frame and slide for cracks and burrs.

You can check you recoil spring if you have a postal scale that goes to 25Lbs.
and a long 1/4 " bolt to keep things tame. The spring should have 20Lbs. fully compressed. BTW Wolf makes springs for Kahr.

Don't buy that garbage about ammo sensitivity. All American ammo is made to SAMMI specs so ALL American production pistols should work with American ammo.

PM sent.

Good luck Jim K

PM me if you have any questions.

Good Luck, Jim K

[GOOFA]

Your problem lies with the Federal Champion ammo. I use quite a bit of it and it's fine with a broken in gun, but breaking in a new gun with it can give you FTE's. I have had this happen with my last two new pistols and last weekend I changed the recoil spring on my CW9 with 1800 trouble free rounds on it and all of a sudden I started getting FTE's. I switched the recoil spring back to the old one with 1800 rounds on it and it ran 100%. So, I put the new recoil spring back in and started using some 124gr FMJ ammo and some Winchester Nato ammo and no problems at all. As soon as I hit 300-400 rounds, I will go back to the Federal Champion loads. It seems like the last 3-4 months the Federal Champion loads are borderline when in comes to breaking in a new pistol. Now I'm not saying this will happen with all new pistols, but it definitely has been the cause of some failures.

[koishoes]

Jim-
As for the up and down play in the ejector not being good, I assume a minimal amount is normal as per the Kahr manual states when reassembling the gun and sliding the slide back onto the frame you may have to push down on the front of the ejector so it doesn't catch when sliding the slide fully to the rear (mine is like this).

The extractor however I am sure is malfunctioning. It is extremely stiff and when I have the slide off the frame and try to slide a cartridge or casing under the extractor, the extractor doesn't hold it in place AT ALL :confused: . In fact, when I hold it up to the light, there is a gap between the rear of the cartridge casing and the breech face and the part of the extractor actually touching the case is the very tip of the claw, and it's not touching the rim where it should.

I have to wait for the new spring to arrive from Kahr just so I can "go through the motions" :rolleyes: but then they said to call back and I can get an RMA number. From what I hear, it sounds like Kahr's turnaround on repairs seems pretty quick.
I just got my Meprolight night sites in the mail today though so I suppose I should wait until I find out what the deal is before I install them in case Kahr replaces the slide. :o

Jim- PM sent.
:behindsofa:

[jocko]

I have nothing against the wolffs striker spring for kahrs but I don't know exactly how it matches up with the kahr striekr spring which works great. Now to add to that. I do use the 5# wolffs strker springinstead of thier factory striker spring. It does wonders and just drops right in. U won't get light strikes on that either.

Jim K, has some real prior knowledge in the extractor area. he has done some mods that certainly helped make his kahr totally reliable. test out some of his suggestions. I cannot give good solid advice in that area what so ever. Not sure that the extractor has to actually hold that brass casing when u slide it up between the extractor and breech face. I would think if there was some play there, that would be OK. to me better than trying to force the brass between the extractor and breech face. try kahrs new recoil spring but IMO I doubt if that will solve the issue to. I would think if this is a new kahr that if it has to go back that kahr should pick up the tab both ways. Maybe insist on it even. I just heard from a poster today who had to send his kahr back for hte 3rd time and it is a new gun and was told it was on his dime and it cost him $60 to send it back. To me that is totally unexcussable. This would nothappen with ruger or smith at all. If they make it andit doesn't work, they should incur the costs, certainly not you the "beta" buyer.. Just don't take no for an answer.. or go higher up if needed.

[koishoes]

Well said, Jocko. However, I did purchase this gun used...but it was manufactured july last year as per kahr customer service, and there was minimal wear when I purchased. As far as I'm concerned, a 5 year warranty is a 5 year warranty, period. When they give me the RMA runthrough, I plan on them picking up the tab both ways not just return. Although I don't want to be a **** with customer service, it's not their fault, but plain an simple if a messes up, they should fix it. I love kahr firearms, they're wonderfully and precicely designed weapons, however mistakes do happen. It is not, however, my responsibility to fix those mistakes. :)

[Jim K]

Koishoes,

Sorry You didn't get my PM. It must have been that bone protruding from my head again.

Extractor tension that is too tight will cause failure to feed / failure to return to battery problems. Extractor tension that is too loose will cause extraction problems. The mechanics of this thing are not difficult but I receive a bit of "controversy" over the fix.

The extractor should have enough tension to grip the cartridge. The extractor should have some spring action to allow for movement while maintaining grip on the cartridge.

Take the thing apart being careful not to let things go "boing" and lose parts. There is a tool that you can make from a coat hanger to help out. Directions for making that tool are somewhere else. Check the Tech section. Here is a link to Kahr parts:

KAHR ARMS ONLINE SHOP (http://www.kahrshop.com/index2.asp?cate=parts&model=K9)

You'll see that the parts are VERY reasonably priced. See items 24, 25, 26 & 27.

Get 'em. Try 'em. Inspect your slide and extractor to see if there is a mechanical problem keeping your extractor from closing on the cartridge rim. See if some one clipped the spring. Replace parts as necessary. If there is a defect with the slide then I'm afraid there is nothing I can suggest.

When you finish all that and find the extractor tension too tight you can shorten the back extractor pin 027K9S about the length of a spring wire. (cost $1.10) DON"TCUT THE DADGANED SPRING!

When you get your Kahr working I think you'll really like it.

Good luck and let us know how you made out.

Kindest Regards, Jim K

[koishoes]

UPDATE:

I ended up getting an RMA from Kahr as expected and sent it off the Monday before Thanksgiving. I had a he11 of a time sending it back, UPS gave me this bulls##t that I "couldn't send the gun back because I didn't have an FFL." I explained I am simply the owner returning the firearm to the manufacturer for warranty repairs and the guy behind the counter said "how do I know this Kahr company is the manufacturer? If you said Remington or Ruger or something those are companies I've heard of but I can't let you just send this someplace I don't know." I almost reached across the counter and said, "LISTEN F##KER IT'S NOT MY PROBLEM YOU DON'T KNOW GUN COMPANIES." I explained I had a federally protected right to return the gun to the manufacturer but he wouldn't budge. I called Kahr on the spot and told the rep UPS wouldn't let me ship without Kahr's FFL, and the rep explained they didn't need Kahr's FFL for a warranty repair return. After going around in circles I left and called UPS and filed a complaint (which they were very understanding about, acknowledging that I was right) while I was on my way to FedEx :D
ANYWAY...I managed to ship it and got the gun back in about a week. Sure as hell (and just as I figured) they replaced the extractor AND the slide. I wrote in my note that I sent the gun with that I suspected either the extractor or the slide were machined out of spec or BOTH, as it turned out to be. The new set up is golden, just as it should be. Feeds, extracts, and ejects just as any other gun. Extractor is a little strong but in a good rock solid Kahr sort of way, and it returns flush with the slide after an empty chamber.
When manually working the slide though, this new slide seems to almost catch sometimes, but I imagine that is because it is a brand new slide with my old barrel and things need to re-seat and kind of "break in" a little again (I only put 5 rounds through it when it came back to do a rough check before I actually go to the range and run a 200 round test).
I took the whole thing apart to re-lube the gun with my own lubricant and reassembled so I can take it to the range tomorrow. I'm expecting everything to be crisp, clean, and like a dream.

[koishoes]

Range Report: :33:

Just got back from the range. 200 rounds of FMJ and 25 rounds of personal defense (Speer Gold Dot 124 +P [my personal favorite], Federal HydraShok reduced recoil 134, and Hornady TAP 124). Every single round fed, fired, extracted, and ejected flawlessly. Barrel lockup seems tighter with the new slide and I seem to be more accurate as well. :D

[Jim K]

Xcellent! Should never have the problem to start with. 1st 200 rounds w/o failure. Perfect.

Regards to everyone, Jim