'05 production P9 is jamming

[az4783054]

Hi, new to this forum (on SIGforum under same user name), but not unfamiliar with KAHR pistols. I've owned several over the years.

I've owned a previous early production P9, an MK9 (both flawless) and two PM9 pistols (both troublesome but probably more my fault). I currently have a late production K9, a PM9 (both flawless) and a P9. I have a problem with the latter.

I've did use search here for previous threads about similar problems. I read a range of possible solutions, but not many followups to suggest the final solution that cured the issue(s).

The pistol: I have a recently acquired P9 (Jan '05 production) that was giving me fits today at the range. I bought this used last week so I'm aware the warranty is no longer in effect. I brought it home and thoroughly inspected/cleaned/lubed it with SLIDE GLIDE (lite).

The background: I used six different KAHR magazines and the same thing happened with each. The springs are installed in the correct orientation.

The recoil spring is installed in the correct orientation.

I chambered only from the magazines using the slide stop. Each first round chambered fine.

The extractor and ejector were both clean and showing no signs of burrs or chips.

The feed ramp has no burrs and is still highly polished.

The history: The previous owner said he'd shot only 50 rounds through the pistol. I did discover that two of the three magazines that were included in the purchase had the magazine springs in backwards. Initially I thought maybe that may have caused him to experience feeding problems and that's why he got rid of a perfectly fine KAHR pistol at such a low round count. No such luck.

The ammo used: I shot 325 rounds in one session this date. I wanted to complete the 400 round “break in” as quickly as possible. I shot 100 rounds of WINCHESTER “White Box” fmj, 100 rounds of BLAZER “Brass”, 50 rounds of SPEER “Gold Dot” 124gr jhp, 50 rounds of MAGTECH fmj and 25 rounds of WINCHESTER “PDX1” jhp. A good variety of quality factory ammo...and I experienced the same issue right up to the last round fired. I don't think this is an issue that will suddenly disappear with more rounds fired for the “break in”.

The symptoms: The issue is that frequently on the subsequent rounds chambered from the magazines, usually the second or third rounds, I experienced the slide not going back into battery. This happened approx. 20 times out of the 325 rounds. I tried loading only six rounds in the magazines, but the problem persisted.

Upon inspection, I found the ejected empty casing was lodged between the breech face and back of the barrel hood, laying horizontally. Or I had a classic vertical smoke stack of the ejected round.

I also experienced several instances where the first round in the magazine chambered, then the second round was partially stripped from the magazine and jammed behind the chambered round. When the pistol did chamber and eject correctly, the accuracy was just as I expected from a KAHR.

I brought the pistol home for a thorough inspection again and didn't see anything obviously wrong.

I doubt that I'm “limp wristing” this pistol because my daily carry is my PM9 and it's never failed to function during any time. I also frequently shoot a SEECAMP or NAA Guardian, so I am familiar with pocket pistol functioning and need for a firm grip.

Anyone have any suggestions? I'd rather not have to send the pistol into KAHR if I can avoid it, especially if it's something I can remedy myself. Thanks in advance.

[ripley16]

I experienced the slide not going back into battery. This happened approx. 20 times out of the 325 rounds.

Perhaps all that is needed is a new recoil spring. Being a used gun, you have no way to know exactly how used the current spring is. At least a recoil spring is cheap.

[Bawanna]

Perhaps all that is needed is a new recoil spring. Being a used gun, you have no way to know exactly how used the current spring is. At least a recoil spring is cheap.

That was my first thought as well, I just wanted someone else to say it first.
az#######, you did a bang up job of presenting your issue and you did a great job of breaking things down that you've tried, including what you thought could be or might not be an issue.
Ripley is right in that you really don't have a positive history and occasionally even a new gun benefits from a new recoil spring. If we figure something else out, it's still nice to have a spare around anyhow.
Worth a try if you ask me.

[Jim K]

Getta new spring. Kahr parts are inexpensive and sent out quickly. Beats shipping it back.

[jocko]

Indeed AZ****** u documented it well, you do know guns, it is evident from your post. That being said, I willgo witht eh group to install a new recoil spring. Do I think that will solve ur issue, probably not but it is a first thing to try. I am betting the prefiou owner had issues and that is also why maybe the mag springs were in wrong to. He was experimenting. Check your magazine follower to see that they are not possably cracked and also check the sides of the follower to see if there is any bad wear or goughes on them from the magazine release button. If that mag rlease button is rubbing against that follower through the hole in that magazine, it can cause feed issues. I doubt if that is ur issue to. Again eliminate the possables. U have done alot of that already.

PM sent.

[az4783054]

Thanks for the replies. I figured the springs would probably be suspect based on what I've researched here in previous threads. I sent a message to KAHR as well. I'm not opposed to returning the pistol to KAHR for service, just hate waiting. I want some MEPROLIGHT night sights installed anyway so it might not be a bad option.

The magazine followers appear to be fine, no cracks/broken legs visible. I checked them when I found the springs in backwards. Three of the magazines I used were from my K9 and they function perfect in that pistol.

I'll try the recoil spring first and update with results so others can benefit from my experience.

I received the PM and thanks for your advice. However, I am retired LE. It might prove embarrassing to have some old friends from federal LE knocking at my door. ;)

[jocko]

I received the PM and thanks for your advice. However, I am retired LE. It might prove embarrassing to have some old friends from federal LE knocking at my door.


what I told you is not illegal, just UPS POLICY. ship at what ever expense u feel comfortable with. If the gun gets running right, u can just send the slide in to get the mepro sights installed by regular postal mail for about $5. again perfectly legal.

[az4783054]

I received the PM and thanks for your advice. However, I am retired LE. It might prove embarrassing to have some old friends from federal LE knocking at my door.


what I told you is not illegal, just UPS POLICY. ship at what ever expense u feel comfortable with. If the gun gets running right, u can just send the slide in to get the mepro sights installed by regular postal mail for about $5. again perfectly legal.

Shipping the slide alone USPS would certainly simplify matters if the recoil spring works.

I tried installing night sights on my previous P9 and broke off the base of the front TRIJICON sight. What a mistake. Thanks.

[jocko]

one certainly needs a sight pusher if he is going to EVEN ATTEMPT to install sights on a kahr. some seem to be almost like welded in place. never seen any gun ever that was as tight as kahrs sights are. U proved that yourself..

[az4783054]

one certainly needs a sight pusher if he is going to EVEN ATTEMPT to install sights on a kahr. some seem to be almost like welded in place. never seen any gun ever that was as tight as kahrs sights are. U proved that yourself..

That's for sure. I've changed out sights on quite a few guns w/o damage over the years using the tried and true brass punch and hammer manner.

From what I've read here, the rear KAHR sight is usually the hardest to remove, but I found it easier than the front (older version P9 w/o dimple). Maybe because of the larger surface area for the punch?

But that oem contrast front sight wouldn't budge forever. It finally gave in. I broke the TRIJICON front sight trying to re-install w/o sufficient material being removed from the base.

I wonder if the newer slide (w/ dimple) with the narrower dovetail made this easier or harder?

[az4783054]

Now if I can just get KAHR to answer the phone or return e-mails...:rolleyes:

QUOTE:

I posted this today on this thread...
http://kahrtalk.com/p-cw-series-pistols/4482-kahr-cs-bleeech.html#post43187

"I don't usually complain about customer service because I don't experience poor service often. And it always bugs me when I read petty complaints from impatient people.

But I've never had such bad luck with reaching KAHR customer service as today. Maybe they're short handed and/or very busy today because they've always answered promptly in the past.

I ordered new springs for my P9 on Nov 22nd and still have not received them (MA to AZ). The order should have been shipped prior to the Thanksgiving holiday rush. So I called to find out if they were even shipped, when they were shipped, how they were shipped, to what address they were shipped and hopefully get a tracking number.

Five times I waited for several minutes (15 minutes?) listening to the "muzak" and repetitive "we are still busy please hold someone will be with you shortly" messages every few seconds. The speaker phone must have been invented for such frustration. Five times a male recorded voice finally came on and said to e-mail or leave a voice mail for best manner of contact, then I get cut off and removed from que. Then the customer must dial all over again including all of "press 1-2-3" etc.

I'm still waiting for a return reply from last week to technical service about a problem I'm having with the P9 that I hope the springs will remedy...
'05 production P9 is jamming (http://kahrtalk.com/p-cw-series-pistols/4588-05-production-p9-jamming.html)

I've sent an e-mail requesting the information but so far gotten only an automated response that they'll be in touch. Anyone know Mr. Moon's cell number?

KAHR, are you listening? There's got to be a better way." :phone::(

**UPDATE 11/30/10** I still couldn't get through to customer service (after five frustrating attempts by phone) before KAHR closed for the day and I have not received a reply back from a 2nd e-mail. But I just received the parts ordered late this afternoon via FEDEX ground. I think USPS even on its worst day probably could have done better in the delivery time frame of Nov 22nd to Nov 30th (and probably cheaper as well) even with the holiday. Asking about manner of shipping should be kept in mind.

The bad news is the stainless guide rod was almost 1/4" longer than the oem. The package says "NYPD K9/late P9" but I could not install it into my (late version/dimpled slide) P9 because of the extended length/angle. Even if I could have installed the extra length rod, it would have protruded out the front of the slide by a like amount.

I wasn't about to wait another two weeks to return it and wait for KAHR/FEDEX ground again, so I machined it down to the oem steel rod length. I told the sales rep several times the rod was for a late version (dimpled slide) P9. Somewhere that critical information got lost between the rep and the shipping department. Or maybe KAHR expects customers to DIY modify springs and guide rods now (referring to the recent new tapered slide PM9 recoil spring thread by another member).

The recoil spring appears to be three coils (approx. 1 1/2") longer than the oem spring. I'll contribute that to it being new and the oem spring being used/compressed so its hard to compare apples to apples. I installed it and it dry functions fine, so a range test will tell me for certain. Six new magazine springs were also installed. If these parts correct the problem, this will all seem trivial in a couple of days, but I'll keep it in mind if/when I have to deal with KAHR customer service in the future. And again, this is not like my past experience with KAHR customer service...

[1911fanatic]

Not that familiar with Kahr guns, but with 1911's if you get stovepipes it has to be either the extractor is too loose or the breach face is too wide. Just something to look into.:001_huh::nerd::nerd:

[az4783054]

Not that familiar with Kahr guns, but with 1911's if you get stovepipes it has to be either the extractor is too loose or the breach face is too wide. Just something to look into.:001_huh::nerd::nerd:

Extractor is tight with no chips or deformations as I mentioned above.

As far as the head space between barrel hood and breech face, it didn't appear to be an issue but I'll re-check that. If the recoil spring was weak, could that space be increased/peened?

[jocko]

az. I was under the impression the dimple on the bottom of the slide indeed mean later version but it also was the indicator of the different dovetail sight cut. That is what the dimple was there for. I never knew and still wonder where the difference is in the recoil rod length. that is a new one.

I will check on it to see, if maybe you got a complete different recoil rod, maybe for the T9 although the package is marked. humm.

there is a size difference in the two kahrs.

The P9 is 5.8" in length with a 3.6" bbl

The K9 is 6.0" in length with a 3.5" bbl.

I have no friggin idea how kahr can label that package the way you received it and expect it to work. Not sure they know whattghe hell is going on there anymore. I think I would call kahr and run your findings by them and ask them if they can explain. I bet there is no explanation. Not sure I would put in the 3 coil extra recoil springs in that gun. It will be tight racking and IMO probably will not let the gun lock up on the last round. 3 extra coils is a bundle..

[jocko]

did anyone notice kahr has updated their webb sight. Now go figure this sh-t out. They stillshow the old style PM9 in allof their photos when we know it is no longer even made and that the PM9 today have the beveled front slide on them and are even longer that the one that is pictured.

So much for an updated webb. Wow, just blows my mind. It to me is very hard to defend stupidity..

[Bawanna]

I'm not trying to defend Kahr, or maybe I am. But websites and building guns are two completely different arenas. Building or changing a web sight would be harder for me than washing windows on tall buildings. I'd much rather try to build a gun.

I suspect the same issues apply to owners manuals which should be updated far more often than they are and thats not a specific Kahr problem either, lots of makers are behind on manuals too.

Sounds like the media department needs to step it up.

[az4783054]

az. I was under the impression the dimple on the bottom of the slide indeed mean later version but it also was the indicator of the different dovetail sight cut. That is what the dimple was there for. I never knew and still wonder where the difference is in the recoil rod length. that is a new one.

I will check on it to see, if maybe you got a complete different recoil rod, maybe for the T9 although the package is marked. humm.

there is a size difference in the two kahrs.

The P9 is 5.8" in length with a 3.6" bbl

The K9 is 6.0" in length with a 3.5" bbl.

I have no friggin idea how kahr can label that package the way you received it and expect it to work. Not sure they know whattghe hell is going on there anymore. I think I would call kahr and run your findings by them and ask them if they can explain. I bet there is no explanation. Not sure I would put in the 3 coil extra recoil springs in that gun. It will be tight racking and IMO probably will not let the gun lock up on the last round. 3 extra coils is a bundle..

I wish I could get through to KAHR, but they won't answer their dang phones. Maybe the rep I talked to was a new hire or just lacking technical experience. Or a shortage of reps to answer phones. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt as this has not been normal from my past experience.

The recoil rod installed fine once I removed the excess. Calipers confirmed all other dimensions were the same. Maybe the package was mislabeled, I dunno. My understanding is the dimple is supposed to identify the later version slides with the narrower width rear sight. That's what I told the rep I was working on. Maybe "next time" I'll give them the serial number so they can confirm the parts.

I function tested the P9 after springs/recoil rod installation with everything seeming normal. Manual racking didn't seem to require more effort, the slide locked back on an empty magazine and released normally from the slide stop.

I compared the stainless rod to the oem rod from my K9 and it's longer than that as well. The oem steel rods from my P9 and K9 are the same length and dimensions. The packages for the stainless guide rods for both have slightly different labeling however. But no way would the stainless rod they sent work in my K9 w/o also being shortened. Neither pistol have the new tapered slide.

I think the extra length of the recoil spring was due to be new and never compressed. I compared new/old springs, coil to coil and side by side. The old spring was definitely compressed with less space between coils. I didn't count each coil old/new though. I've come to doubt the "50 round" count from the original owner based on the springs.

The new magazine springs were also physically longer than the old ones but installed w/o extra effort. Compression effort into the magazine tube was the same, just more spring to compress and trap with the base locking plate. So again I think the difference in length had more to do with never compressed springs. I doubt the springs can become that compressed from not being used but 50 rds since its '05 production.

I'll update once I get to the range with it this weekend. I hope the springs cure the problems. I'd hate to think of trying again to get a hold of KAHR to obtain an RMA #...

[jocko]

az. I talked to someone inside of kahr that knows what the hell is going on and he told me that you definitely got sent te wrong guide rod and recoil spring and to call kahr cs and talk to them about it. He had no explanation as to the labeling of the package..

[az4783054]

Thank you for that effort. I will continue trying to contact them, but still not being successful. It may be more critical once I get to the range and see what happens.

Since I've already altered the stainless guide rod they sent me, I don't expect there's much they could do now. That would make it my fault for being impatient as much as theirs...

[Roadblock]

I didn't read the whole thread but I had a PM9 I bought used from my local gun shop that had some issues when I picked it up.

I called up KAHR, told them my PM9 developed issues they had it send it in, they replaced some things, tweaked some things and sent it back.

The subject of it being new, used etc never came up. It was an older version PM9 too.

I've also had to send guns back to HK and GLOCK, both of which were used, I was not the first owner, the subject never came up.

*Roadblock* shrugs... Don't ask, don't tell policy?

[az4783054]

I didn't read the whole thread but I had a PM9 I bought used from my local gun shop that had some issues when I picked it up.

I called up KAHR, told them my PM9 developed issues they had it send it in, they replaced some things, tweaked some things and sent it back.

The subject of it being new, used etc never came up. It was an older version PM9 too.

I've also had to send guns back to HK and GLOCK, both of which were used, I was not the first owner, the subject never came up.

*Roadblock* shrugs... Don't ask, don't tell policy?

I agree. With most of my pistols the topic of new/used has never come up. The customer service reps take care of the customer immediately. I've only needed a slide stop on a previous KAHR PM9 and they sent it out promptly w/o cost. None of my other KAHR pistols have needed anything.

The issue in my case is that I can't get through to KAHR customer service. I tried calling five times at various times (approx. 15 minute "muzak" wait each time) the other day only to be dropped from que. So far, they haven't answered my e-mail message(s) or voice mail either.

If the P9 shoots as my other KAHR pistols do tomorrow, I'll write it off as a one time bad experience.

[gb6491]

Thank you for that effort. I will continue trying to contact them, but still not being successful. It may be more critical once I get to the range and see what happens.

Since I've already altered the stainless guide rod they sent me, I don't expect there's much they could do now. That would make it my fault for being impatient as much as theirs...
I don't know what number you are trying, but 508-795-3919 worked perfectly for me about a half hour ago: connected quickly with technical services and have a replacement part on the way. Hopefully that number will work just as well for you.
Regards,
Greg

A quick side note here:
When I replaced the slide stop spring in my CW45, I had read on "Kahr Talk" that Kahr CS recommends tightening the spring screw until it was just snug (http://kahrtalk.com/30975-post18.html). I did this when installing the new spring. Upon reassembling and testing the pistol, I found the stop was very hard to remove. I also noted the slide didn't return to battery as easily as it had prior to the change. I checked the slide stop spring and found that with the screw snug, the spring seems to operate as two distinct springs, where before, the whole spring seemed to move easily as one. I loosened the screw until the spring would move freely as it had done before; this resulted in the stop being as easily removed at it previously had been (the slide again went easily into battery). Next, I tightened the spring back snug, then loosened it a slight amount (1/4-1/2 turn). This resulted in the stop being slightly less difficult to remove compared to when the screw is snug and the slide going into battery without hesitation. I played with how snug the screw was until I found a median that I liked; leaving it snug enough that I need to use something to start the stop out of the frame (though I can do it by hand if need be). My CW45 functions perfectly with the spring adjusted this way. You might want to give it a try.


BTW: I also found a more detailed post about tightening the slide stop spring:

“I also called tech support to get the proper way of setting the screw and they said:
The spring looks somewhat like a G and that the screw should be tight enough that the top and left part of it do NOT move. If I understood him correctly, the bottom perhaps from 6 o'clock and going counter clockwise should move and that the rest should be clamped down.” (http://kahrtalk.com/31231-post20.html)
This seems to mirror what I discovered when doing my own spring.

I'm thinking it might not hurt to check this out on your pistol.

Regards,
Greg

[az4783054]

The number I was calling each time was 508-795-3919, then had to listen to several "for ..., press 1-2-3" options.

Maybe they weren't answering "# whatever" that day... :rolleyes:

[gb6491]

The number I was calling each time was 508-795-3919, then had to listen to several "for ..., press 1-2-3" options.

Maybe they weren't answering "# whatever" that day... :rolleyes:
I went with door #1 from the first "for ..., press 1-2-3" options" I heard.
Good Luck!

[az4783054]

I don't remember now which number I pressed. After the first three failed attempts, I did try pressing "0" thinking I'd get a real live person to connect me.

Nope, KAHR customer service doesn't swing that way. As I said, success at the range will hopefully make this just a bad memory... :(

[jocko]

roadblock is right. they don't ask if u bought it used. If you volunteer it, then that is your problem. They will fix it if u send it in. Now if the gun is new defective, my only comment is that they should pay to have it returned, certainly not your fault you bought a factory bad gun.
If you bought it used and they ask you to send it in and they do not offer to pay to send it it, , IMO then the cost should be yours to bear also.

What some poeple do not understnad also and I have been told this by some inside kahr people is that many kahrs are sent back in and THERE IS NOTHING WrONG WITH THEM. Some people do not give the gun the manual stated 200 round break in. bingo, some buy it new take it home, right out of the box, load up a magazine and go out and shoot it, It jams, or ftf or what ever and then bingo, it is a worthless POS gun and back it goes. This gets very expensive on kahrs end paying both ways for a gun that is OK.

Now I am not alibing for kahr but their manual states give it 200 rounds to get mated up etc. I had a Para carry 9 that gave issues and when I called factory about it, they said call them back after you get 500 rounds through it, as most issues just go away by then. A new owner can do alot to make his purchase work as it should if he would only go with the manual and if your a reader of this forum, then also if yo go to the kahr lube chart and the PROPPER PREPPING OF YOUR NEW KAHR.

[az4783054]

To the range I went today with hopeful anticipation that my P9 would behave itself now it has eight new magazine springs, new recoil spring and new (modified) stainless guide rod. Everything was clean and lubed from my last session.

I shot 100 rds of WINCHESTER "White Box", 50 rds of MAGTECH fmj, and a mixture of 42 rds jhp in SPEER "Gold Dot", MAGTECH "Guardian Gold", WINCHESTER PDX1, HORNADY "Critical Defense" and FEDERAL "Hydra Shok". I wasn't looking for accuracy, just that it functioned w/o problems. Accuracy was quite good though with all but MAGTECH ammo. I had all eight magazines loaded in advance and shot them quickly so the pistol got pretty toasty.

I shot the MAGTECH before I shot the WINCHESTER. I will never shoot MAGTECH fmj or jhp again. In the P9 the fmj caused multiple instances of partial feeding up the ramp with the slide not going into battery. The slide stop was used each time.

Comparing the MAGTECH fmj and the WINCHESTER fmj, there was an obvious difference in OAL. The MAGTECH rounds were slightly longer. Either the OAL or bullet profile apparently isn't compatible with this P9. The MAGTECH jhp faired a little better, but I would not use it again.

Good news is that the "White Box" fmj fed/ejected well with only one minor hiccup, and all of the other jhp ammo fed/ejected 100%. Between last week and this session a total of 325 and 192 rds have been fired.

The springs appear to have solved the double feed and stove pipe issues of last week. At this point I won't send the pistol into KAHR to address the feeding issue since it seems limited to only one manufacturer of ammo. It's probably not worth the cost and hassles.

The feed ramp appears free of burrs/defects and it was already polished. I used some 1000 grit black oxide to smooth it out anyway, finishing with my favorite metal polish.

I'll try another 200 rds before I decide whether to send the pistol back to KAHR...

[ripley16]

Magtech has caused me fits to in both Kahrs and some HKs. If a HK can't handle it, then the ammo is pure crap IMHO. Glad to hear the gun functioned better. Ammo does make a difference. I've yet to have a problem in any of my Kahrs with quality and/or hot ammo. It is only with weaker ammo, such as the Walmart Ferderal crap and Magtech that I've experienced problems.

I've come to really like the Winchester PDX1 +P bonded.