Frame Maintenance

[03dime03]

Great information on Kahr slide maintenance. Does anyone clean the inside moving parts of the polymer frame. Spray it with cleaner, lube, etc. Also would it be foolish to consider taking the rear site off, because I carry in my front bluejeans pocket most of the time.

Thank ya'll for any advice

[jlottmc]

I spray it, wipe down what I can get to, then if I feel real froggy, I'll brush the parts and pick/q-tip the parts. I do not disassemble the lower end. Come to think of it, I've cleaned the magazines, and have never taken the slide down either. I have zero problems with my P45.

[jocko]

great information on kahr slide maintenance. Does anyone clean the inside moving parts of the polymer frame. Spray it with cleaner, lube, etc. Also would it be foolish to consider taking the rear site off, because i carry in my front bluejeans pocket most of the time.

Thank ya'll for any advice

indeed foolish!!

[03dime03]

Thanks again,

I am listening to all the good advice.

I am very happy with my PM9 and have had no problems with it. The only time I do I have a problem is when I accidentally hit the mag release when shooting.

[tomwalshco]

I took mine off. Mainly for faster front sight acquisition. No big deal. Left to right with a punch. 3-4 taps. If you hate it, you can put it back on. I'm glad I removed mine. No loss of accuracy, promise.



http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac215/tomwalshco/PM9rear.jpghttp://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac215/tomwalshco/PM9sightoff01.jpg

[kramm]

I do pretty much the same as JlottMC, although I have taken the slide down and cleaned it (no big deal there). I've also cleaned the inside of the mags.
I'd say if you pocket carry and the rear sight is hanging up when you draw it's a issue. As mentioned you can take it off and see how it works for you. It can always be put back.
These are not intended to be target pistols, rather S.D. They are accurate and do a fine job at target shooting. But not what they were designed for.

[DasFriek]

I own an MK9 with wood grips so i must be more careful of what i get inside mine.
The harshest cleaner i use is Breakfree CLP on a cloth swab and i use wooden skewers to push it into all the cracks and crevices.
As long as you don't let crud build up for years in your frame you shouldn't need anything stronger than CLP.
I do clean my mags on the top half by compressing the follower and sliding a skewer threw the holes in the side to hold the follow down, Then use the CLP swab in there also. Followed by wiping that dry as wet mags aren't good.
About every 6th range trip ill take them down by hand and completely clean them as a dirty mag can cause feed issues.

[joshh]

i use synthetic safe gun scrubber. i remove & spray the slide asm, barrel & springs every time i shoot it and then lube with eezox. usually just oil up a q-tip to clean the moving & metal parts on the grip & trigger asm.

[pappy42]

I'm an amorer, certified by the factory, for two major players in the law enforcement community.

Neither reccomend spraying an assembled frame with anything.

[jocko]

pappy 42 : Why??/

[mudfish]

It's not the correct way to clean/lube an assembled frame. Technically, also from a liability standpoint. Most of us do it without any problems but the factory can't "recommend" you do it that way. You can degrease parts that can't be re-lubed without disassembling, you can push grime into places it shouldn't go, you can leave build up on parts.

Just like hand loads void most firearm warranties...

[tomwalshco]

As long as opinions are flying, I'm going to throw in mine and disagree with the above. A good "flush" clean with a CLP type product will help to keep the weapon cleaner and running better. And lube the hard to get at places. Wipe down afterwards.

Not unlike what you would do to your carburetor linkage or your whole car with a pressure wand for that matter.

An oil change for your engine is a similar philosophy. Is it perfectly clean when done? no. But regularly done is certainly more beneficial that tearing the engine apart every 20K.

I've had pretty good luck over 25 years with scores of handguns and rifles. Just me, do what you see fit.

[Bawanna]

Exactly correct tomwalshco. The main thing is to replace the lube where it is flushed out at contact points when you use something with no lubrication like brake cleaner.

I have 4 amorer certificates and while it would be nice to detail strip a gun every time and do the part by part inspection and cleaning the guns they provide at these classes are evidence of what happens when you do this. At Colt school some of the rifles if you held them on their side the pins just fell out. Working on their guns and then working on a new never been apart dept gun were too completely different animals.
While they should be looked over periodically I'd not tear them all down very often.

We have a solvent tank, for officers to clean their guns (I seldom use it unless I get something really nasty) and I found many that were just cleaning in the tank and reassembling. The solvent is good stuff but has no lube capacities at all. I emphasized to them as the firearms instructors should have that the lube needs to be replaced every cleaning.
Not all officers are gun guys and I see some pretty silly stuff now and then.

[jocko]

I have to go with Tomwalashco. Handguns don't come with areas in them that are pre lubed and never to be touched again. just look at the Kahr itself. there is nothing to the lower section. every part of a glock will come out of the lower section. I have no doubt if you clean guns today with some of these good cleaning solvents, they take away all oil,s and lubes with the rest of the grime. That is what we clean a gun for to get the grime out. U can't IMO clean a gun and just get the grime out only and think your leavintg the lube and other stuff in there Ok. It just doesn't work that way. No doubt if you clean you must relube/reoil, but I just ain't buying this not cleaning the lower section. Now I am an advocate, expecially with kahrs that they do not need detailed stripping in the lower section. It can all be cleaned from above and lubed from above. Hell if solvents bother a person to much, just get some hot soapy water with dawn in it and flush clean the lower section and stick a blow dryer on it and you proabalby just as good. It ain't gonna rust, all kahrs parts I do believe are stainless anyway and u should be OK. and of course relube and fire away.

I don't know but to me common sense says a fully cleaned gun is a healthy gun. I can attest that I have zero crude anywhere in my lower section of my kahrs or glock and I just spray clean it and relube and then shoot it like I stole it.. I have often stated even that if one uses that little clean out hole in the kahr and glock slides, there is no need to detail strip it either. These gun companies don't put some miracle lube in their guns to be never touched again. They as many well know come sometimes devoid of any lube at all.

I think if you ask most gun makers if u need to detail strip ur gun for cleaning, they will tell you NO. Reason being that some people can't get things back together the way it should be, certainly not becuase those parts are prelubed and never need attended to. Oils today are so much better than 30 years ago, They can find spots that one could never get to before without total break down of the parts.

I can remember in basic training (early 60's Ft. Leanorwood) before we were allowed to go home for the weekend, we had to be able to detail strip our M1, every friggin part. Many never went back together correctly to, course IMO that was years back when spray cleaners were only dreams and burshing parts with solvents was the rule of the day. What I wouldnot have given back then for a BORE SNAKE

[Jeff00042]

First off, I'll admit I'm compulsive about cleaning. After range sessions, I remove the slide, disassemble the magazines and throw the frame and other parts in an ultrasonic tank with MPro7 cleaner. After thoroughly drying all parts, I lube with Eezox and TW25b grease on the rails. This has worked well for me for years. Do you see any problems with this procedure or immersing the frame?

[Bawanna]

Not at all. It's worked for you for years so it must work.

I like the M Pro 7 / Hoppes Elite (exact same thing). I use it alot. It acts like water and isn't slippery like Hoppes which isn't always a good thing but it cleans well. It's one of the ones with no lube though, so long as you relube all is good.
I like Du LIte for squirting areas that need lube that are hard to get to or I don't want to dissasemble. To each his own on the oils, theres a million choices.

I use the TW25 on the rails.

[jocko]

never heard of Du Lite. that sounds like Go Lite, something I had to drink before my colonospy. any similarity??. Does Du Lite give one the runs if it gets on ones hands????

[Bawanna]

Exact same stuff, thats how I found it. Since I had to drink a whole gallon of the stuff I discovered adding a little Vodka (even though I'm not a vodka guy) seemed to help. (for a while) ugly after that.

Actually Dulite is what many of the manufactures spray on their guns before they package them. Not knowing how long the gun will be on a shelf. It doesn't build up, last for a year, doesn't run, it's great stuff.

According to the can Winchester, Colt, Ruger and Thompson Center all use it.

I've certainly absorbed enough of it thru my pores, probably why I am what I am if we ever finger that out.

Places that do reblueing use it alot. Dip the parts right in it after blueing to kill the rust process.

It was always hard to find but finally after a long time Brownells now carries it so its way easy now.

[Jeff00042]

Bawanna: Thanks for your reply. Don't think I'll try MPro7 before my next colonoscopy.

[Bawanna]

Bawanna: Thanks for your reply. Don't think I'll try MPro7 before my next colonoscopy.

The MPro7 is good stuff. So is the Dulite, you can't get a lead in from Jocko like that and not run with it. Ya know.

I had hoped to go my whole life without one of them colonscope dealy heimers but alas the doc made me last year. Told me to do it again in 10 years, told him no more in this life time, 10 years out to be long enough.

For those of you forced to do this you should know the procedure itself is nothing, they give you the I don't care shot and you wake up none the wiser if perhaps only a little violated.
It's the night before preparation that is a nightmare. I think the docs just prescribe this to humiliate us when we aren't respectful enough to em.

[Kingcreek]

I just use a blast of compressed air from time to time since lint and dust are the main contaminants. I will wipe the frame top and mag well with a old toothbrush or damp cloth for any carbon fouling. I don't want to spay stuff in if I can't wipe any excess out. I'm fairly new to kahrs (less than 1 year) but I've maintained a fully functioning glock since 1994.

[aray]

I use the M-Pro 7 cleaning solution too. It's non-toxic and it has no odors, so my wife lets me clean in the family room. Works very well as a solvent for gun gunk. Only drawback is that it comes in pump bottles, not in a power spray bottle like the brake cleaner. So I supplement it for that little clean-out hole with a can of compressed air for that is readily available from Wal-Mart.

[tomwalshco]

I forgot to add, as I get done with an area, I'll give it a pretty good blast of air to move the lubricant around, evaporate any solvent and blow out leftover stuff. Not a can of air, but a nozzle and hose connected to a small 80 psi compressor I've got for air tools.

A couple of times a year (when I do a complete breakdown) I'll do a good hot soapy water wash, too. I really believe nothing beats good old hot water and Dawn in a bath now and then. Blow it out and give it the hair dryer treatment to heat it all up and help in the evaporation of water. Then I'll do the petro-based cleaning to get the oily stuff back in - soapy water will get rid of some of the stuff that solvent won't. Learned that from having AKs

[racuda]

never heard of Du Lite. that sounds like Go Lite, something I had to drink before my colonospy.



I can attest that I have zero crude anywhere in my lower section

Is that because of the Go Lite? :)

[Knuckler]

Also would it be foolish to consider taking the rear site off, because I carry in my front bluejeans pocket most of the time.


Taking off a rear sight is a horrible idea, particularly on a small gun. It will absolutely effect your accuracy, particularly at longer (Over 10 foot) distances. (Whoever "promised" it wouldn't probably isn't that accurate, anyway...)

I used to have to qualify with a 2 inch J frame....out to 25 yards. That gun doesn't have much in the way of sights, but what it does have became very important the further away the target got. Close up, hitting the target was fairly easy. 25 yards took alot of concentration, and required the use of sights. (I scored a 99.2% with that gun....I dropped one round into the pelvis area...would've been a fight stopper, but not so good for my score.)

From a liability standpoint, if you remove the rear sight, then accidentally hit someone while trying to defend ourself, you will have a real problem. Good luck with that lawsuit.....if the prosecutor doesn't come after you first.

Leave the sight on. If you have an issue with it snagging your pocket, try a J frame, and carry your Kahr in a belt holster.

[Popeye]

I scrub the slide, frame,recoil spring, and barrel with Break free and a tooth brush and a assortment of round brushes. Inside the barrel with a nylon round brush. Then blow it all out with compressed air. I put a few drops of oil in a small cup and use a 1/4 " artist brush to lube all the parts. I pretty much do all my pistols the same way. I do not believe in over lubeing a pistol it attracts to much dirt/pocket lint.

[cgo99]

Taking off a rear sight is a horrible idea, particularly on a small gun. It will absolutely effect your accuracy, particularly at longer (Over 10 foot) distances. (Whoever "promised" it wouldn't probably isn't that accurate, anyway...)

I used to have to qualify with a 2 inch J frame....out to 25 yards. That gun doesn't have much in the way of sights, but what it does have became very important the further away the target got. Close up, hitting the target was fairly easy. 25 yards took alot of concentration, and required the use of sights. (I scored a 99.2% with that gun....I dropped one round into the pelvis area...would've been a fight stopper, but not so good for my score.)

From a liability standpoint, if you remove the rear sight, then accidentally hit someone while trying to defend ourself, you will have a real problem. Good luck with that lawsuit.....if the prosecutor doesn't come after you first.

Leave the sight on. If you have an issue with it snagging your pocket, try a J frame, and carry your Kahr in a belt holster.
That's a good point Knuckler, not that I would ever remove my rear sight ( I need all the help I can get hitting the target) but I never thought of that.
If one has to use a gun in a bad situation things can get ugly after the fact, why complicate things even more.

[pappy42]

pappy 42 : Why??/

If you're using a solvent; lubrication can be removed from a critical location. If you're spraying a lube product; there is always the danger of using too much, attracting dust, lint, or even grit.

My personal oppinion is that the manufacturers don't want us goofy gun owners spraying, God knows what, in hidden recesses and getting them (the manufacturer) joined in a liability law suit.

Having received a few letters from plaintiff's attorneys to list all of my assets; I now pay closer attention to such things as liability.

It's your gun, your money, and your choice. YMMV

[jocko]

If cleaning a gun can cause liability issues. one should not carry then. I just have a hard time buying that scenario. I certainly HAVE NEVER read of one instance where anyone got sued because they had a clean gun and well lubed gun. Just to me makes no sense. But everyone has their own way and style of how a gun should look.

[Knuckler]

With the amount I shoot, I simply cannot NOT clean my guns. That was one of the more ridiculous statements that I have seen on the internet (Think about THAT for a second...)

A defensive carry pistol should be kept as stock as possible. Disabling safeties, having ridiculously light trigger pulls, removing sights, etc is a really bad idea. Not every prosecutor is totally OK with self defense shootings (It varies county to county in my area....), and God forbid if you miss, or the weapon ADs during....if you modified your gun, the least of your problems will be the civil suit.

[pappy42]

If cleaning a gun can cause liability issues. one should not carry then. I just have a hard time buying that scenario. I certainly HAVE NEVER read of one instance where anyone got sued because they had a clean gun and well lubed gun. Just to me makes no sense. But everyone has their own way and style of how a gun should look.

Jocko, my answer to your question wasn't intended to cause controversy.

Your comment concerning not having knowledge of someone being sued for having a "clean gun and well lubed gun"; while likely accurate, is short sited. If you think that I'm full of beans; ask 100 folks for thier definition of "clean gun and well lubed gun"

My comments concerned two manufacturers who do not reccomend spraying assembled slides and frames. If an owner ignores that advice and causes a problem, then the owner will find it lonely at trial time.

I don't know what Kahr armorers are taught, or if they exist outside of the factory. That's why I didn't comment concerning Kahr's policy; because I don't know.

One thing that I do know for a fact; is that in a plaintiff trial, "expert" witnesses can be hired to support either side of an arguement.

Again, your gun, your money, and your choice. Above is my oppinion. YMMV

[jocko]

no controversy, just my opinion and I totally disagree. and I think most here also do, especially from the liability stand point. Now if a gun maker doesn't think it is needed to spray clean a weapon that is their opinion also,( I would think they would state that in their owners manual) and I have owned Smiths, Glocks, Ruger, Kel tec, Kahrs and I never have read anything about this..... but for me I just ain't buying the liability thing Would you be able to site me a couple or even one case of this gun "overly cleaned and lubedf" being a liability factor in a civil or criminal suit. I would be the frist to eat my words if proven wrong..

I run this bjy my daughter who is a attorney in the state of florida,(orange city) and her question back to me was WHY WOULD IT!! Course we know anyone can sue and if you wanna pay enogh you can get the opinion you want stated from "authorities". I don't dispute that but for me to many scenarios, Court cases would shoot my comments right in the ass, if I am wrong, not scenarios and I am not trying to flame you as it is evident you feel sure of what your saying, but to me from a total legal stand point it is a very weak case to site..

[Bawanna]

I think the only time there could be a liability issue would of course be during a catastrophic failure of some kind. Either the gun didn't shoot when you wanted it to or did when you didn't want it to.

Of course the experts would try to place a blame leading either way.

Like all things a manufacture isn't going to endorse much of anything. All of them void warranty if you use reloads but generally still fix things sometimes for free.

They dont recommend what type of ammo for liability reasons.

The factory of course would love for everyone to take their gun to an authorized service center everytime it needs cleaning. This of course ain't gonna happen.

In the libilous culture we live in when something bad happens with a gun everything about the day will be under the microscope. Right down to your brand of skivvey shorts or lack there of. (did'nt want to leave Dietrich out).

Bottom line in my very humble opinion is guns need cleaning, most are not qualified to detail strip and clean individual parts especially in Kahrs. So the spray cleaners do the job and the spray lubes do the job. I don't hear of too many failures by cleaning in this method. In fact I'd go so far as to say there might be more issues if the gun was detail stripped and not put back together properly. It happens, I've seen it happen.

A trial involving a shooting is gonna be ugly, cleaning a gun in any method I doubt will make it any uglier.

Just my feeble thoughts, not meant to instigate or antagonize anyone in this discussion.

Happy thoughts.

[earle8888]

Bawana In the libilous culture--- Is this something that grows??:) Is it a bad word?

[earle8888]

Bawana is litigious a good word to use?

[Bawanna]

Bawana is litigious a good word to use?

Probably a heck of alot better than what I used. You guys are so much more wicked smart than me, I'm suprised ya let me hang with ya.

[jocko]

cause we like you!!

[MikeyKahr]

cause we like you!!

Cause we like his grips!! And his gun collection!! :hungry: I would even think about going so far to start calling Bawanna dad and all, but I know that would make me look extremely self-serving and mooching and all - no good, right? Plus I'd have to start calling O'Dell grandpa and I think wyntrout grandpa too, and that'd just get all confusing and all. :blah:

[earle8888]

I would consider "Dad" BUT I'm a little old I think. To young for Korea, but young enough for Bay-of-Pigs