Barrel integrity question

[rholmes69]

I was cleaning and relubing today after shooting a bit this weekend and wanted to finally address an issue that has been bugging me.

I have a pm9 that falls in the recall range (VAxxxx) and don't know if it was sent in. The barrel has some pitting on the exterior and it just doesn't seem "right" to me. Am I being overly paranoid? I attached a few pics, thanks for any feeback.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l256/rholmes69/Kahr/100_3802.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l256/rholmes69/Kahr/100_3804.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l256/rholmes69/Kahr/100_3805.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l256/rholmes69/Kahr/100_3809.jpg

[jlottmc]

That looks like some bad casting type stuff. How deep is it? I have had a couple of guns that were rough cast like that, never had a problem with them, and they shot just fine too. Being that it is on the muzzle end, I would worry if it were overly deep, but then again.

[rholmes69]

I thought that the barrels were milled from a solid piece of metal, are you saying that the original cast of the metal stock itself is where the defect is?

[Jim K]

Looks like corrosion pitting to me. The barrel is made of steel and is nickel plated. Steel is more chemically active than nickel. Any microscopic point of water or perspiration in the nickel plate leaves the steel open to galvanic attack. Nickel is not a good corrosion preventative for steel because in the case of galvanic corrosion the steel will protect the nickel like an anode on a boat protects the prop and motor. Do you carry your pistol in your sweaty pocket? The pitting on the muzzle is the give-away. Maybe Kahr will replace the barrel on the idea that the plating integrity is not good.

Good luck, Jim K

[Bawanna]

A barrel sure isn't cast in the true sense of the word. Ain't gonna happen. Seeing as the barrel is produced from a solid piece of metal I don't see how even the original casting being bad could show up like that on the barrel. It was that way when you got it? Or has developed or worsened over time.

Send that picture to Kahr, I'm thinking they will replace that just cause. Course they ain't gonna cause I said so, I feel kind of bad they never ask me anything. But I'd replace it if it was my call.

I doubt that it will detract from the barrel integrity but it isn't right either.

[jlottmc]

I'm sure all of you are also aware of a process called investment casting (Ruger made the process famous) Some bbl makers have used that process. It shouldn't hurt the gun unless it is deep. A call to Kahr would be in order if it bugs you that much.

[jocko]

I thought that the barrels were milled from a solid piece of metal, are you saying that the original cast of the metal stock itself is where the defect is?

kahrs polygonal rifled barrels are made for them by Lothar, one of the premier barrel makers in the world. They come to kahr in 3 ft lengths rifle and then kahr does the length cutting and the maching process to the finished barrel, then it is sent out to a vendor for the nickel plating which is done completley to the barrel, inside and out. Theya re not cast barrels, actually I have never heard of cast barrels but that doesn't mean jack squat in my case.
You won't get much better barrels than lothar barrels, although, I am sure in the maching process kahr might have some slip through that should not slip through. We do know at one time they had a plating issue with some of their barrels but I think today that is also in the past do.

[jocko]

I'm sure all of you are also aware of a process called investment casting (Ruger made the process famous) Some bbl makers have used that process. It shouldn't hurt the gun unless it is deep. A call to Kahr would be in order if it bugs you that much.

heard of it in the making of the frames etc, but I have never read of it being made for barrels. Very similar to a MIM part. I wouldn't want one...

[Bawanna]

heard of it in the making of the frames etc, but I have never read of it being made for barrels. Very similar to a MIM part. I wouldn't want one...

Agreed, frames, all kinds of parts are investment cast, but not barrels.

[jocko]

bawanna, this is the second time you have agreed with me, don't let that sh-t happen again!!!!

it is not good for the forum..

[garyb]

I am in agreement with JimK regarding the nickle plating. The reason I believe this to be true is because I had recently asked Kahr about recommended solvents and oils. They cautioned me about Hoppes solvent being very corrosive and advised me to be sure to carefully wipe all the solvent off so that it did not affect the nickle plating on the barrel. However, they refused to recommend a solvent. I'd say it was more of a plating issue than a carry issue, but could be both I suppose. Perhaps you could get it replated? I am sincerely sorry to see that happen to your barrel. I'd imagine you are like me because you take pride in your guns you care for them. It is disturbing to see crap like this arise. Best of luck with it. Maybe it's time to tell the Mrs you need a new barrel????...ha ha.

[rholmes69]

Is there any distinguishing mark or difference in the barrel if it is has been replaced due to the hollow point feed issue recall back in 2004? I am wondering if it would be easier to chase down customer service and have them replace the barrel on accord of that requirement rather than the cosmetic pitting? I assume I can call Kahr and find out if the barrel was replaced under the recall, correct?

[jocko]

Military has alltheir Beretta M9 nickle plated. less corrosion in a nickel plated barrel-if done correctly

As far as the barrel recall, if u have one in the serialnumber range of the kahrs that was recalled back in 04, indeed call kahr. U can look uip that recall serial number sequence on the glock talk site under the karh forum and then under barrel recall. they give the sequence of the serial numbers being recalled. My understanding on the HP recall issue that kahr merely highly polished fhe feed ramps an nothing more. today they do a super job of polishing the feed ramps. It was never about the cosmetic pitting back then. Also to my knowledge they did not mark the barrels in any particular way to show one way or the other.

If you have a pitting issue, I would try to get it replaced under that part of the warranty part.

A properly plated nicklet barrel will last longer. I have read pros and cons of Hoppes# 9. I stilluse it in my PM9 bbl and it has ovber 30,000 rounds through it. Now mind u I don't stick a cork iin one end and then fill the barrel with #9. I swab it, brush it reswab it and then wipe clean and the a light oil cloth down the barrel..

One really doesnt hear of anyone ruing barrels by over cleaning. My guess is that if that happens the barrel might have not be right in the first place and it just took some time for this to all surface.

certainly don't be afraid of a nickel plated barrel. It is not done because it is chaper to do.

One can google up nickel plated barrels etc and find all kinds of things about the pro'
s and the cons' ..

I googled this report up.

Copper is only used in Electro plate Nickel, used to provide a conductor
for the nickel to adhere to. Electro-Less Nickel does not use copper as a
base. The part about hoppes potentially undermining the coper base is
correct but there would have to be some area where the copper was
exposed, and then you would literally have to SOAK the parts in it for
a matter of hours. With not expose areas even electro nickel would be
would stand up to repeat endless cleaning. Fortunately, the modern
way of doing it is Electroless, which does not have the same weakness.
My Uncle owns a very sucessful plating business in central florida, that
does defense work. He is also a gun enthusiast, and has tested his
nickel jobs extensively with prolonged Hoppes baths (several Weeks)
and had no failure. He plated one of my rifles, and I can tell you
that in all the years I have owned it, and cleaned it I use hoppes
exclusively, with no problem. My father also owns an older S&W
topbreak, with elctro plating, that has been cleaned with hoppes
for the last 25-30 years with no problem. Unless you have an Electro-plated
gun with an already damaged finish, you truly don't have any thing to
worry about.

[robmcd]

Bar stock, which is also know as billet, is a form of purified material. It is indeed a casting, made by literally freezing moulten liquid metal, forming the desired shape (and also aligning the grain). However, don't compare it to the MIM process which is used to create small firearm parts with complex shapes. Lothar Walther Precision Tools (GA, USA) uses their own spec LW50 stainless steel as an alternative to conventional 416R stainless, supposedly to eliminate durability problems. Both LW50 and 416R do have a certain carbon content, but have inherent corrosion resistance (hence the name stainLESS).

Smith & Wesson has massive drop forges to rough shape billet before machining. Ruger uses investment casting instead, and they are pretty robust. Neither, to my knowledge uses such a process for barrels - they use billet.

By the way, Lothar Walther makes an excellent 1911 match grade barrel ready for fitting, with either conventional button or polygonal rifling.

I agree that you should contact Kahr customer service. My bet is they will review the data and do the right thing.

[jocko]

i would think tha tmost people view a cast product not as a barrel. which indeed at one time in the process has to be a cast product also. But as u stated there is a vast difference between a cast MIM part and a barrel, which at one time was a process that required some kind of casting rocess. Steel, stainless or what ever was never discovered as a billet.