Jocko - Recurve

[garyb]

Jocko,
We were communicating about the old days of traditional archery. I've attached some photos of the bow I designed and built back in the 80's (when I was a boyer). It was designed after the Damon Howatt Hunter and Super D; Browning Take down; and $1000 Bear TD. The riser is of Rosewood with bubinga and maple lams in the core. The face of the riser is multiple lams of white and brown glass finished in a rosewood lam. The limbs are Yew with clear glass. I inlayed a gold plated molded simulation of a flaked broadhead in the riser. The limb tips are lams of white and brown glass with rosewood tip. I hand twisted the flemish string. I even included a T handle allen wrench to take it down, with the same woods that are in the riser on the handle of the allen; and a folding pocket knife with the handle having a lam of rosewood from the riser. I built several for local guys. The prototype was given to the guy who helped me design it, who has since passed away. He was a great traditional archer and very knowlegable. This 60" 53# TD bow shoots "smooth" like a Hunter (little stack is felt), but fast like a Super D. Due to the riser weight, there is not much felt vibration. It has some of the beauty and asthetic features found in the custom limited edition Bear TD. It is retired on my wall, but I still have the forms and could build them again. Not at the same price I offered them in the 80's. I quit building them because the materials are so caustic. An exceptional long bow boyer I once knew - SanMarco (who was a violin maker in a previous profession) developed liver cancer from the epoxy and dust. I quit building bows when I learned of it. After communicating with you, I am confident that you of all people will appreciate this. Brings back the old days, doesn't it?

[mr surveyor]

wow.... very nice recurve, beautiful work. I would love to shoot that one.

surv

[garyb]

Thanks.

I've attached a couple of more pics of the face of this bow with the stacked lams of yew and rosewood. I couldn't leave this side of the bow out. This feature is unique and takes after the old Browning's. Some may remember them - very beautiful creatures to behold. My bow was called "Tox" short for Toxophilite - an old archery term.

Also included is a pic of this bow displayed on one of my walls (over my old FL license plate "RECURVE". The bow on top is the 1st prototype of my Tox. I made it for the guy who helped me design this recurve. He has since passed away (God rest his soul - he was a very good friend of mine) and his wife gave it back to me to display in his memory, because he loved it so much and won many shoots with it. It is made from a cherry tree that I actually felled and had milled. It had several unique features he wanted on it. One being that he did not want the take down feature to be obvious and wanted the allen screw heads that hold down the limbs are covered with wood to hide them. At first glance, you'd never know it was a take down.

Finally, the third pic is to stir Jocko's emotion with a pic of a bear TD over a Damon Howat Hunter. I could include many more, but enough on archery for now.

[yqtszhj]

Nice bow. It reminds me of the one I still have from back in the mid-70's when I was a teen. I haven't shot it in many years but I can't part with it. I couldn't hit much with it either but it was really fun.

[Bawanna]

I hunted many years with a little Martin Bobcat compound. It was a great little bow. I never advanced to a real recurve, neck and shoulders just couldn't handle it. Got to where I had to dial the compound down to shoot. Lots of good memories with it.

A few years ago my son got into archery so I knocked the dust off it but neglected to tighten the limbs up enough, pulled it back and all heck broke loose, parts flew everywhere. I still got it hanging in the garage, never did get it all put back together.

Sure felt all powerful hunting with a rifle after bow hunting, if I could see it I could kill it, with a bow you gotta almost pet em first which was perfectly fine. Saw alot more animals with a bow in hand too, why is that, I think they knew they were safe at a distance.

Did ambush a mountain goat, that was way cool and well earned.

[garyb]

Yea, I know what you mean Bawanna45. Jocko and I were discussing some of that. There is something special and peaceful about archery season, when there are no weekend warrior nimrods stirring up the woods. The whole world of archery reminds me a little about what goes in to shooting a handgun. There are so many details to focus in on, in order to shoot well. About 10 yrs ago, I'd hung up the recurve and longbow too; and for similar reasons (neck and back). Really miss the smell of the cedar arrows now that I use carbon. Plus the cams on the compound just don't seem right somehow, but they sure help shooting accurately. For many years I teased compound shooters that the only thing compounds were good for were to sit on and roll down the hill....to many ladies aids on them. But now I'm eating crow for the nasty things I had said (all in jest). But at least I'm still following a passion and shooting the bow. I hope the handgun brings me as many years of enjoyment as I got from archery (50 yrs of it). If it does, I will call it a fountain of youth, because I will live a long, long time....haha.

I wanted to post these photos on a private message to jocko, but when I could not, I realized they might stir up some memories for alot of guys who enjoy the Bushido (Warriors way) of the shooting sports.

[jocko]

garyb, U make me "sick". Love that Bear Take down. I owned many of the wooden risers, mostly the A riser and a few B. risers. as I told u in a PM, all personaly signed by the master back then. FRED BEAR. He had been to my archeyr shop a couple of times and even was in my home once. As common as an old shoe, he was....

[garyb]

Maybe Mr. Bear was as common as an old shoe in person, but to archery and the shooting sports, he was like a nuclear reactor on mars. He was an archery genius and you were lucky to have known him personally. I kind of figured you'd get a charge out of the wooden bow photos. These are the fond memories that life is made of and we are blessed to have them.
Best Regards

[Bawanna]

Mr. Bear was definitely the John Moses Browning of the bow world and he did some insane things with a bow. My hat will always be off to that man.

[jocko]

maybe mr. Bear was as common as an old shoe in person, but to archery and the shooting sports, he was like a nuclear reactor on mars. He was an archery genius and you were lucky to have known him personally. I kind of figured you'd get a charge out of the wooden bow photos. These are the fond memories that life is made of and we are blessed to have them.
Best regards

priviledged

[jlottmc]

I am still learning the bow. I have an uncle that does the mountain man recreations, and he makes his own bows, and arrows. Eventually, I will make my own recurve bow, but for now, I need to find the time to learn to shoot a bow first.

[dusty10]

Very nice work garyb. I have been thinking of tackling a longbow build when I get time. You are right about bowhunting. There's something pure about it that is different than using a firearm. Are you sure your friend's illness can be specifically traced to the epoxy usage?

[jocko]

I bowhunted for over 35 years, and I misse dalot of deer under 15 yards and at the time was very pissed but today as I think aobut this stuff in my age now, I am truly bless ed to have been so close to such majestic animals and only to see them walk or run away.
The word MISSED has alot less meaning to it now that it did 35 years ago.
I basically gave up bowhunting when bows went mechanical., and when Fred Passed on didn't help alot either.

[garyb]

The question about the bowyer that developed liver ca. I was told that it was liver and the cause was the toxic materials he worked with ...epoxy. I can not say for certain. However if you read the MSDS on the glue, you will see this is a risk. I did not feel it was worth the risk as glue gets all over everything and the dust is impossible to get away from. Also the profit on a custom made bow did not justify the amount of work or health risk. It was fun to do at first, but it is not something you just jump into and build a top notch bow right out of the gate....especially if you are designing your own bow. I had Many many failures before I started getting it right. There are alot of secrets to good custom traditional bowmaking. Secrets that bowyers do not share readily....glues, limb design, materials, tapers of lams, etc... You will spend alot of money and time before you get a really good bow. Once you have it down, then you need to decide if it is worth the time to build them. There are so many good bows on the market, that it is hardly worth taking it on. Unless you are like me and you just have to do it to prove to yourself that you can. i wanted to harvest animals with my own bow design, that I built, with my own arrows that I made and then do the taxidermy on them myself. It took me over 30 years to accomplish the mission. Now I can say that I can build a quality bow and do quality taxidermy. But it is a hobby.

[dusty10]

No desire to make bows for profit or even as a hobby. I am interested because I make wood things for a living. Kinda like when I built my first boat for cruising because I was curious. Or, my first house cuz' I was interested in building. I use West System epoxy almost everyday going on 25 years now in the custom yacht furniture business. No known health issues. I'm more worried about the polyester resins in boats than anything else. Nothing is really very good for you including pumping your own gas and if you live in a big city just breathing. At any rate, you have achieved mastery in your bow making endeavors. Congrats and glad you got out while still healthy.

[Bawanna]

If one thing don't get ya another one will. We do the best we can to prolong our time here but theres a master plan for all of us and we didn't write it.
I remember when I first started learning to checker, working mostly on rifle stocks, which are really scarey, if you mess em up you have to cut em in half to get in the wood stove.
Ironically I started grips when a big time grip maker didn't make what I wanted. I was still a new derelict and not working so I had lots of time.
I started with some iron wood that somebody gave me and that stuff if you get a splinter in your hand it's instantly get it out cause it hurts, it's toxic.
I advance to Coco Bolo and spent hours and hours at the bench filing and sanding and cutting, so much that my hands turned red, the lines sort of festered and itched, blistered and tingly. It apparently got into my blood cause my shirt collars turned red when I sweated, sometimes a bit light headed, didn't give it a thought.
One trip to the wood store the guy working there said anything with red in it is toxic, wear a respirator. I started wearing rubber gloves and a respirator but anyone that works wood knows that after awhile that stuff gets in your way and your putting it on and off all the time.
I still try to use it and I don't get as much time as I used to so it don't seem to mess with me as much.
Even plain old cedar is toxic.
Them glues and resins and stuff gotta be 100 times worse I'd think, the fumes in some of the boat places I've been to about knock you over just walking in the door.

[dusty10]

Didn't mean for my previous post to come off as snarky. If it did, my apologies to all.
Bawanna, you are right about red colored woods being toxic. I will have allergic reactions ( sneezing, watering eyes ) to any of the mahagony family if I'm ripping that stuff all day long. Whether I wear a respirator or not, some gets in around nose. Can't be helped. Try wearing a respirator when the summer temps climb to normal Texas weather. I guarantee you won't be wearing it for longer than 30 minutes no matter what you're doing. Besides, sawdust is good for you. Roughage ya' know.;)
We all accept risks for the sake of earning a living. We try to control the risks as best we can. What else are you going to do?
I still am looking at those pics of garyb's bow making. Phenominal work I must say.

[garyb]

Thanks Dusty. I appreciate the positive comments from a fellow wood worker.

I always wanted complex angles and laminations in my design. Everything must be precise or the limb tiller will be out of wack and in the trash it goes. Getting a smooth drawing bow with minimal perceived stack, yet good speed is the bowyer's challenge. Another tricky part is the deflex to reflex to balance the smoothness, stack and speed. As far as the wood work, that is simply combining the correct contrasting wood types/colors to give it class. That part is kind of interesting, almost funny, in that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. When it comes to wood materials, some guys go crazy over some types of wood -for example the pre-laminated risers -that I feel is pure garbage. The pre-laminated woods they now use in gun stocks will make the bow heavier, but stronger. I feel they use this because it is more difficult to find one good piece of wood to work with and much easier to glue up a bunch of laminations of maple or something else that is hard and then when you shape the gun stock or bow riser, the laminations make it look like swirrels and grain. Some guys like it, I don't. I appreciate a nice piece of exotic, something rare, expensive and hard to find. I also appreciate contrasting colors that blend well. Some guys like solid color glass in the limbs (brown, green or black, even red). I like clear glass so you can see the grain in the wood lams beneath the glass. Like I said, everyone's taste is different. I would sit and talk with the person that wanted a bow to find out what colors appealed to them the most. I'd let them design it to fit their particular taste. They loved THEIR bow.

A piece of advice for a beginning bowyer - Start with a long bow or a take down recurve. Reason being that a longbow is somewhat easier to lay out and glue up. A TD recurve keeps the riser intact even if a limb breaks. You simply redesign the limb and your work and materials are reduced. I believe that was part of the reason why take downs were marketed so heavily by the manufacturers.

Another piece of advice - use "Smooth-On" two part epoxy in a heat box (150-175 deg). Build a good heat box with bulbs for heat and a thermostat to keep the temp consistent. Use high pressure fire/water hose between a two piece form, with air pressure to do your clamping. This gives a nice even pressure. Clean up all parts well with acetone prior to glue up. Very important step. These tips will save you alot of time.

I started with a one piece recurve, clamped with c-clamps with wood on the clamps to spread out the clamp pressure. Tougher project to take on. The uneven clamping gives hot and cold spots - not good in a bow that stores alot of energy. A good fast bow is almost broken and stores all the energy it can when it is drawn to the draw length is is designed for. My first bow (60" one piece recurve) turned out fine, but I had given it such a radical limb design that it worked fine up to 28" draw and it was super fast. At 28" it stored all the energy it could. A guy drew it to 30" and blew it to kingdom come. Limbs, glass and parts flew everywhere in the room. I was shocked after my hard work, time and money put in it. My heart sank when the folks in the room laughed and laughed. No one was hurt. I took a razzing for a long time and it was a major (mental/emotional) set back in my bow building. I had to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch with redesign, build new forms, etc.... For awhile, anyone that was aware of the bow that blew up, did not want one of my bows. I never felt I would recover.

However the guy that worked with me to design it was an excellent target archer and very boisterous and vocal (almost obnoxious in your face kind of fellow). An excellent salesman type. He took the prototype takedown to shoots and won regularly - of course giving credit to the take down bow "HE" designed. The word got out locally and orders started coming in.

Then I moved for another job across country and my bow building slowed to a stop. I filled out the remaining orders and for multiple reasons (toxic materials being one; work pressures another) I stopped building bows. I still have my old forms and heat box. Maybe someday I will build something for my grandsons, if the interest is there. Of course they will want to shoot the latest and fastest modern compound. I can't really blame them.

If you decide to give it a try, don't hesitate to reach out for help with your questions. I finally hooked up with a brother of a good friend of mine, who was a traditional boyer and flint knapper out west. He is still building them, but graduated to self bows...really exotic and fancy almost wierd stuff. Great work. He helped me out alot.

Good luck!

[dusty10]

garyb, now ya did it. all the info has me intrigued even more about building a longbow. You mention air pressure for clamping. Do you mean vaccum bag. I do alot of vaccum bag glue ups from installing complex veneers to forming round shapes that become parts of a bigger piece of furniture. I use HEAVY canvas to spread load of vaccum evenly. I suppose that is similar to your fire/water hose suggestion. Never heard of "smooth on" epoxy but I imagine it is a more refined resin compared to the typical boatbuilding standard of West System. Kind of like surf board resin being more refined than your basic polyester fiberglass resin. When I get my new shop complete, I'm going to take a stab at this, for grins if nothing else. No interst in marketing them as that would take the fun out of it for me.

[Bawanna]

Thats me and grips, I like making em for people but you get too many on the list you start feeling guilty about making them wait and it becomes a job and not a hobby.
Not a great paying job but a job none the less.

[garyb]

I agree...making things to fill orders is no fun...it is WORK. I started bow building for fun, for myself. Now I have the bow I wanted and built it myself. I'm done. However, I may have a grandson that wants one and that would make it special again.

The clamping system starts with a bottom form that is the shape of the limb. It must be perfectly smooth with the proper deflex and reflex. The wedge in the riser side of the limb must be the correct length and have the right taper or feather to where it joins with the core laminations. The laminations can be parallel or tapered. All of the above determine how the bow will shoot, not to forget the angle the limb leaves the riser. Very critical. Anyway, back to the form and clamping system:

The 2 outside layers of glass and interior core lams are stacked with the limb wedge centered between them. If you use tapered lams, the thin end goes toward the limb tip (where the limb is softest). Then the hose is placed over the lams. Finally a top form is placed on the hose and layers of glass and core lams. The top form is affixed at the sides to the bottom form so they can not separate. The high pressure hose has a plug clamped to one end (as a seal) and a plug with an bicycle or tire air valve on the other end. This hose is filled with air (I forget the exact amount of pressure off the top of my head...I seem to remember 90psi but I may be wrong). The hose presses the limb materials together by even pressure between the top form and bottom form. You should have the idea now. What happens is the glue squeezes out of the sides of the limb materials and leaves a nice even application of glue between the lams...it is important for the layers of glue to be even. You do not want ANY hot or cold spots of glue. The importance of clamping evenly should not be under estimated.

I think you should have an idea of this part of the process by now.

[Replay13]

Hi garyb,

That is a really nice bow! I started shooting and hunting with a recurve that I got from Herters. I got all my fletching jigs and feather burner from then also.. well at first I just cut them out and glued them on as good as I could! lol. That was over 40 years ago tho, I got the bug watching my neigbor and his friend shoot.
Well that was really my first real bow, I made a few out of willow when I was even younger... I did get one of my dads chickens with a willow bow! It ran off and went under some wood in the wood pile and I never found it, and he wasn't impressed when he found it that winter! lol.

Now I have a few compounds that I shoot in 3D shoots and I also hunt deer and elk with a bow some of time. I always liked recurves and long bows but I coudn't pass up the advantage of the compounds and trigger releases. Anyways I wanted to say that is a really nice bow!

I think that a lof of us that shoot pistols have probably shot bows and rifles and muzzle loaders also? We just like to shoot!
Replay13

[dusty10]

That's an interesting clamping system. You basically have a male/female mold but use internal clamping pressure within that mold. Hmmm. Thanks for all the pointers garyb. I'll be printing this thread to save for future reference. Dusty

[garyb]

Yea Replay, I also shoot a Mathews single cam compound these days. The recurve and longbow were getting hard on my back and neck. Howard Hill always emphasized the correct way to shoot a bow to avoid problems with the back and neck. However, I never quite grasped his technique. Plus he was such a big stong man that I think he could string up and shoot a telephone pole. Archery is my real passion, but I have taken a new liking to this PM40 too.

Good luck Dusty. If you need any more pointers, I might have one or two left in my basket for ya. Getting the form right is the first project. Please be sure to post your work whenever you get one strung up. Don't forget to make your own strings too. Twisting up a nice flemish string is a traditional way which looks and works great on a good bow. It too is becoming a lost art, as I'm sure Jocko will concur.
Best wishes.

[jocko]

no doubt, no market for recurves or long bows in reality. Everyone wants the simply way , a bow that relaxes 65%, smaller than a quarter and fast than a 45. only a compound can give this. Just never bent my crank for me but I am from the old school I wish I had the talent garyb had on making bows. I told him when we had our Bear dealership back when, we sold a dozen wooded feather fletched and crested prictice arrows with 125 field tips for $6.95 a dozen and with Bear Razorheads for $9.95 a dozen.

Hell one would be hard pressed today to even walk in an archery shop and be able to find wooden arrows. Now more carbon fiber arrows flying around that ever. It blows my mind when I see the prices of broadheads in 3 paks and carbon arrows in 3 pak. No wonder they market them in 3 paks, as it takes a bank loand to buy a dozen, my my how times have changed when things were simple and when a release was back then a premature ejaculation!!!! and when a BROAD HEAD was something you got in the back seat of a car!!

[jlottmc]

That's why I am learning to make one like my uncle does. Solid piece, American Indian/Mountain man style (not a flat bow but could be done). His last one is more like a Cherokee bow in that it is short, shoots very fast, he also left the knots and such in it looks homely compared to the pictures here, but that is a nice bow. We still need to tiller the limbs a bit to get the draw weight manageable, right now its over 90#'s. He's thinking more like 65 would be appropriate. He also makes his own arrows, and broad heads for it. Currently, his fletching is turkey feathers taken from the same wing. He uses a synthetic sinew string, but is working on a natural sinew one (just learned how to make those). That's the kind of bow I'll build when the time to do so opens up.

[mr surveyor]

the mention of Howard Hill above really brought back some memories for me. I bought my first recurve at age 16... a used Wing, 52", 50# thing of beauty, in my youthful eyes. Someone gave me a copy of that year's issue of Archer's Digest for Christmas and Howard Hill was pretty much the main feature and became my archery idol. I still remember Mr. Hill's description of using your back muscles by "pinching your shoulder blades together" in conjunction with the shoulder and arm action to acquire draw and anchor. If I remember, that particular issue of Archer's Digest had a pretty extensive article describing construction of various bows from a historical perspective, including the turkish, chinese and others, and another article about long distance record using a "foot bow". Good memories:)


surv

[garyb]

For self bows, as they are called, I have a one piece wood made of osage orange and backed with rattle snake skin. Nice but expensive. Taking on the challenge of making a really good self bow is the ultimate in bowership. Shooting something with it is yet another difficult task. My self bow is only 47# and believe me, shooting anything much heavier than 50# is not comfortable in a self bow. They stack like crazy. A short Cherokee bow at 90# or even 60# is not practical and would not be shot very well in comparison. Besides, it is truly not necessary to pull that much in a stick bow. A compound of 60# is overboard and at 80% let off is borderline too heavy (especially after sitting in the cold woods all day and trying to draw comfortably with the adrenalin pumping) , but is what I shoot today. Far too many archers and bow hunters are overbowed, especially today. The modern bows and tackle make bow hunting success far greater.

I've read the same writings from Hill and have his first edition books. In fact I have almost everything written about archery in my extensive collection. I enjoy hearing from others who have shared these readings and I could go on and on and on discussing archery and bow hunting reading.

[jlottmc]

We have yet to try more than a few shots at a time with that little rocket. I actually like a heavier pull just because I can, and my uncle likes the speed it sends the arrow with. That little bow incidentally is made from a single piece of bodark (horseapple tree, with a very yellow wood, and like Mesquite are considered nuisance trees around here). We have yet to hunt with that bow, just bag shooting right now. Neither of us have come anywhere near full draw on it though we have sent a few through the bag. I agree that it needs to be tillered a bit more, and he may end up with it in the 50 pound range. When I get to do mine, I'll be curious if I still like a heavy draw weight.

[jocko]

I used to chrono my 70# bear take down back when and with 217 arrows was lucky to get over 175fps, which back in those days was fast for a recurve bow. Heh these new wheel bows double that and then some..

wasn't hardly ahy difference from 65# to 70# back then as one could get by with 2018 in 65# so weight reduction made up for lost speed. My two best selling easton shafts back when was the 2018 and 2117.

Of all the many hundreds of Bear bows I sold back when, I can't remember ever having one limb come apart due to lamination, Now had some break, but more so in the bear take downs than any other bow. Can't remember ever a grizzly or super kodiak ever breaking...Had very little problems with the alaskan either, at first we had a bunch of magnesium handles break in half(the casting has alot of air pockets in them) as most in my area shot that bear alaskan at 70# and above and the handles were defective and couldnot take that poundage. bear recalled all the early alaskans handles, and we just never had any issues after that. Very few broken wheel bow lims.

I did sell some jennings wheel bows and we had some early problems with limbs. that was the most butt ugly bow next to allen that I ever sold but prior to bears alaskan it was the bow to have and hell it only rlexas less than 20% and was heavy. I was Pro bear back then and kept the jennings bows in a back room, u had to ask if you wanted to see it. It had a wooden handle on it that I swear was just a 2 X 4 whittled down. Oh my for the days back then to remember..

[garyb]

Jocko is absolutely correct about the velocity issue. Even 70# draw weight is heavy. That was one of the problems with very heavy draw weight...you needed a stiffer arrow spine which caused it to be heavier and consequently you gained nothing in velocity. Energy yes, but at the sacrifice of accuracy due to the draw weight. Better to be a little under bowed than over bowed as far as accuracy. For most archers, 40-60 # is about the best weight range to be in as a ratio to arrow spine/weight. I shot 50-54# most of the time. I always wished I could shoot 60# well but it was not possible for me. It was also not comfortable to shoot that heavy a weight.

I still have over 1000 premium cedar shafts in 50-55 and 55-60 # (they were always spined in 5 lb groups). Today they are worth a fortune. In fact I am taking 50 of my old broken cedar arrows (that I've saved for this reason over the years) with me this Christmas to give to my 4 yr old grandson. I need to measure his draw length and cut them to fit him. I also made him a custom cherry riser youth take down recurve with a pewter deer head inlaid in the riser. I cut the tree down and had it milled. It has about a 10# draw weight. He is going to be in heaven this Christmas. I wish you could hear him talk about hunting and fishing. The kid is a natural outdoorsboy. It warms my heart so much. When I hear him, it brings back the same feeling I had when I was a little boy and got my first bow and arrow set. Nothing as good as this one I made for him. I was in heaven shooting that bow. I am taking my takedown (the one in the photos) so I can shoot with my grandson. I will be staying 3 weeks near them in our motor home. I am also giving my son-in-law the original prototype bow that I built for my good friend that passed away. His wife returned it to me. I've had it hanging on my wall as a memory but I know my buddy would want this to happen and have his old bow see some life again. I hope the spirit of archery transfers from my buddy to my son-in-law and grandson. I'll do my part. We need to keep the youth involved in the shooting sports and hunting or the antis will eliminate these rights. Everyone needs to do their part to keep youths interested in the outdoors, shooting, hunting, fishing. It is our responsibility.

[jlottmc]

Well said Gary. Well said. I am thankful for my uncle Tim, he was and is more of a father to me than mine ever was. I couldn't agree more about getting the youth outside and keeping them there as well.

[garyb]

The other thing is that my Grandson and other kids need to learn the outdoor ways. Learning the way of the woods, shooting sports, hunting, gun handling, etc... Outdoorsmen that are familiar with the shooting sports and the ways of the woods have a keener, intuitive awareness in the outdoors. He'll learn when something is not right. How to handle himself. ETC... All of this helped me when I needed it most. God willing, I hope he never sees action. If he does, I want him to be prepared too. He will learn respect, safety, etc.... Most of all it needs to be fun for him and he'll instantly become familiar and good at it...and it could save him. Keep them off the streets and out of street gangs. Keep him doing sporting things with his dad and family. To hell with the anti's.

[jlottmc]

Well said again. I remember a time in Bosnia that my time with my aforementioned uncle and his interest in buck skinning paid big for me several times. One time in particular I was the boot LCpl and had a Cpl and Sergeant sharing my HUMVEE, damn thing broke down again, and we were forced to spend a night in the field. Those two were city boys in the extreme. Took a little doing and finessing the situation, but I finally convinced them that we did not need to sleep in that HUMVEE, and that we could have a fire that would not be seen. Long story short, we were quite comfortable and safer off the road and had a great woods hasenpffefer stew as well. They learned a bit that night.

[jocko]

nice to know garyb that you can pass on such a heritage. I wish I had half the talent you are talking about here even. Makes me envious. Nothing like doing it yourself and then being successful at it. I do envey you in a good way though.

If u can pass on any heritage it should be the thrill of the hunt and not actually the kill, unless one has to live off the land, the kill should be secondary. I think back when I was younger and bowhunting for anything that moved or flew. No robin or bird was safe on my block. I killed for the respect I got from my peers, and now I realize that was not the reason I shouldhave been doing that. My respect for game today goes the other way even. I would not kill a deer for love or money, I just now really appreciate them for the beauty they offer. I don't feel bad about people who hunt with gun or bow, just that I won't do it anymore. Beenthere done that sort of stuff for a very long time. today I guess i hve nothing to prove, course back in the learly 60's if you seen a deer in Indiana u were lucky, helltoday I have them in my front yard occassionally, for sure they are 200 yards from my home at all time.

My first bow was a damn willow tree bow with willow arrows. Wouldnt shoot 50 feet but I was hooked after that. My heros was Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson. does anyone reember the sheboygan archeyr company in sheboygan, Wis. That is where I got my first longbow when I was just a kid. had to get up on my bed to bend the damn bow enought to get the string on it, then it was so fooking long and powerful that I could hardly pull it back.

Youth today don'thave a clue what bowhunting was, compared to what bowhunting is today. todays stuff is space age stuff,no resemblance of a bow, certainly no wooden arrows being shot. I used to have a round table with a dozen fletching jugs, left hand fletch and I remember paying a premium for wooden shafts back in the early 50's to get them spined within 5# even. Port Orford cedar. and I seem to remember even having some compressed cedar shafts back then. They wer eheavy, but they were straight and not suseptable to warping. oh damn, I better quit this stuff, or I might sell my PM9 and go out and buy a recurve somewhere. My problem today would be even to find a LEFT handone around.

In my home town our archery club hosted back then the united states largest bowhunters shoot in Clinton, Ind.(Bowhunter nationals) At one time we had Fred bear, tom jennings, Pete Shipley (PSE), Jim doughtery,, Roger rothaar, Vic berger, the president of the Pople and Young club,(Glenn St. Charles the founder of the P & Y was scheduled to come in with Fred Bear but due to health reasons he could not come) all on our grounds at one time. We had TV coverage and the works. never been duplicated again. We had back then over 2000 shooters in a 3 day even.

Oh yes and we even had Ted Nugent come to the shoot. He came in late Friday evening for he knew Fred Was going to be there and he idolozed Fred, Ted tried to be incognito but I would not have know him anyhow as I did not follow his music but my buddy sure picked him out quickly and once word got around, he had to leave because of lack of security and he missed seeing Fred. I ran into Ted at the NRA convention in lousivlle a few eyars back and reminded him of that and damn if he didn't have total recall of that event.

Oh my, i gotta get a drink over this sh-t..

[mr surveyor]

memories.... Life Is Good:)

[garyb]

I recognize every one of those names Jocko. And the Uncle Ted is quite a character. He has a real passion for the outdoors and I love his message. My wife does not care for him, but I understand the reason he presents as if he has such an extreme position. He is just making sure that everyone understands and quits pushing us hunters. And you are right about compressed cedar - they are heavy. Never bought any because of that, but they were sure durable compared to the premium port orford cedar. The cedar shafts I have in storage are all premium port orfords. I bet you can remember the wonderful smell of those things. That smell would bring back memories too. All great stuff. Get that old bow dusted off!!!!!

[garyb]

jlottmc, You might have saved those city boys asses that night. Glad you never found out. There were some problems with having a ton of woods savy and hunter's awareness. The boys count on you. It is alot of pressure, but better that, than having a point man that can't even wipe himself. Kids today need to benefit from the outdoors experience, killing or not. Just being out there learning, becoming familiar, knowing what it is like to get lost without worry and being part of the shooting sports...it is all good.

[jlottmc]

Garyb, I couldn't agree more with that. That alone is why my daughter will have woods sense, I don't care if she takes any game for some time. I want her to have the awareness, and independence that comes with time spent in the woods. And for the record, it does not have to be a forest, it can be a desert too, it is the time outside in nature that develops those senses. As I finish my degree, and then get on with a department, I will have the time and money to be able to get both her and I out there. I will raise her right, like I said, I don't care if when we go fishing we get skunked, it is the time in the field that is important. Eventually, though she will have to clean and eat an animal just to have that experience as well. She will have a well rounded education as well. Kind of liberating to pass on what we have learned not just in the bush, but in all areas to our children. Again, one day I hope to be some one's Uncle Tim, as I can think of no greater honor or responsibility than that.

[jocko]

garyb, are there still any makers of port orford cedar shafts even today?/

I never was a fan of Teg Nugent, he is to radical for me even with his pro NRA gun stance. I sometimes thing he hurts us more than he helps. His mouth overriedes his a-s alot. I heard him talk in louisville at the NRA convention a few years back and he did zero for me and for my friends who were with me also. I am sure some of the higher up NRA exec, just roll their eyes sometimes.. But oh my, just ask him who his idol is and I will cover any bet it will be FRED BEAR... so for me that doesn't make him a really bad guy either..

[garyb]

We'll need to look into your port orford cedar question Jocko. I would guess someone out there still turns them out, but I'll bet it has been almost 40 yrs since I bought shafts. I bought so much quantity that I didn't ever want to buy again. I'll let you know if I hear of a place that makes them still. Let's check that question out.

Yea, I know what you mean about Nugent. That's why my wife is turned off by him. His antics don't bother me. My take is that he is actually a decent guy, family man and outdoorsman. He does alot to support the shooting sports. I agree he is radical and it requires viewers to look past his crazy ways. He is actually on the right side...and he does speak highly of Mr Bear.....soooo.

[garyb]

Looks like Rose City Archery in Oregon is still turning cedar shafts. I don't know anything about them. In fact, I never really checked where my cedar shafts were from. I have them in the original box, but they were probably purchased from a dealer back then. I did not check other manufacturers in my google, but I am guessing there are other places still turning them out. Interesting huh?

[jocko]

yup there out there, just googled up one supplier. $37.35 per dozen, plain $242.00 per 100 plain.

wow,

considering back in my days we sold a dozen bear feather fletches and crested arrows with 125 grain field points for $6.95 retail.

oh my gary b, I just hit on amazone.com and they have a dozen port orford crested shafts wiht 4" feather fletch and crimp on chessy a-s points for (are u sitting down) discounted down toe $73.95 a dozen,

[garyb]

It's sick isn't it Jocko? I remember paying $40 / 100 for premium cedar. When I bought them by the 1000 it was much, much cheaper. If you look in Cabellas you will see 1 doz finished cedar at near $80. Almost the same price as carbon and more expensive than Aluminum. What the heck is going on in this crazy world. I think Obamaism struck cedar down or the Al Quida has their grubby paws in our cedar supplies. If it's medical, government, boating, guns and ammo, or cedar arrows, you can expect to pay 3-10 times more than it's worth. It is a crazy world. Don't look any further or we'll ALL get depressed.