Kahr as a duty weapon-LEOs chime in

[CS534]

Just wondering if anyone out ther would ever consider using a Kahr as a primary duty weapon. I think the only drawback would be the capacity, but a 1911 has 7 rds and there are alot of LEOs out there that use them. And don't forget about the HK P7 with a 7-8 rd capacity in most applications. I really enjoy shooting my Kahr Cw-40. I am really accurate with it and it feels great in my hand. I've had a few glocks and allthough they are great guns with hi caps, I never felt totally comfortable with them. Anyways I may be getting a job with a department that allows you to carry any weapon you want. The possibilities are endless. Anyone heard of Kahrs being used as a duty weapon anywhere? Thanks for any input!!

[mr surveyor]

I'm not LEO, so I will get that out front and center. Now, most of the departments I'm familiar with either issue weapons, or require their officers to carry weapons on their "approved list". They will allow personal weapons to be carried as back-ups, I believe whether they are on the "approved list" or not, but the officer must qualify with that weapon, and carry nothing else as a back-up on duty. And, all ammunition carried on the job must be department issue. Around here that pretty much limits officers to 9mm, 40 S&W or .38 spl/.357 mag. There have been a few deputies with the county S.O. that proudly carry their 1911's "Bar-B Que" style, but they are in the upper ranks, or investigators... NOT on the front line. Most front line officers I know consider any handgun with less than a 15 round magazine to be a deficit.... but, unfortunately, it may take some of them 14 of those rounds to put a round into a target the size of a school bus. They just don't have the practice range regimine they really need to maintain proficiency. Another factor is that as LEO, you are much more likely to be involved in a shoot out than us mere mortal citizens. Extra capacity may just save your life.

I'm NOT a glock fanboy, but do know they are very fine, reliable weapons. The Springfield XD line is, in my opinion, a very fine choice, as well as the S&W M&P line. Lots of good "standard" capacity handguns out there to choose from. As for the Kahr.... I think I would take any one of them as a totally dependable back-up - if the department allows. Actually, I would probably want the PM9 tucked away in the vest, and the P380 in an ankle holster - if the department allows.

Just my "non-LEO" opinions:D


surv

[Bawanna]

I'm not LE either, in the building but not an officer. Everything Surv said is true.
I'd go a Kahr for backup or off duty or both but not a duty gun. The 3 he mentioned are great choices.
A full size duty gun on your hip is the way to go without question.

[CS534]

Ya I just wanted tp throw that out there. Here in Ohio we have some small depts that will let you carry whatever you want so long as a it has a hole and a bullet comes out the end! - well to some extent. The 2 prior departments I have worked for both issued guns but there are alot out there that will let you choose. Oh and there are a few 1911 mandatory depts around here too. Just thought I would throw it out there that I like the Kahr so much that I would consider it for duty use!

[mr surveyor]

as much as I like my Kimber 1911 and Kahr CW9, I honestly think I would rather have more rounds in the magazine if I were LEO. With my longitudinally challenged fingers I am relagated to single stacks, so the thicker grips of most double stack handguns just aren't really comfortable to me for the most part. The Springer XDM and Glock 19 are "close enough", but just not altogether there as far as confidence in handling for me. So, given my physical limitations, I would obviously opt for what I could shoot best, which would be a single stack, low capacity handgun. But, my preference would be for the most rounds I could properly hold in one hand. As an average non-LEO citizen, I don't feel under gunned carrying my CW9, Ruger SP101, Kimber, or other lower capacity handguns on a daily basis, but I believe that the odds of me needing more than 4-5 rounds at most are astronomical. I don't have a duty to actually go into harm's way, and don't frequent places that I think would automatically qualify as dangerous situations. Just like you, an aspiring LEO, or any active LEO, I DO want to go home to my wife of 37 (almost 38) years every night, but I don't face the same potential threats. The single stack semi and/or revolver I carry every waking hour is comforting. Twenty years or thirty years ago we didn't have the same type threats on the streets as today, as the gang activity was much lower then. The odds of multiple suspects/"bad guys" was much lower. Today, if I were in law enforcement, I would want the highest capacity handgun I could carry, a back-up or two, a Mossy or 870, and maybe even a rifle within "fighting distance". And, regardless of "department requirements", I would also want to go to the range and burn some ammunition through my duty/carry weapons at least every month or two. Most of the cops I know only shoot once or twice a year (at most) other than the annual required range quals. Staying proficient with every weapon at your disposal should be part of your ingrained survival instinct.

CS534, you have my respect for choosing to go into law enforcement. I hope you get better advice from the real LEO's than I have to offer. Bawanna is close enough to the real thing to know what's up in the business as he works with them every day, and I know we have some other "professionals" here at KahrTalk that can give better insight than me.


surv

[jocko]

another big reason why glocks are in over 60%of all police departments. High capacity mags, simple in design, extremely reliable. dead nut accurate, nothing more durable and for most agencies ---affordable. Good quality armoroers schools, company back up. and they wheel and deal big time to get that business , Many agencies end up with complete new leather or nylon rigs if the go to glocks. Course I woud suspect Smith, Sig, and the others do the same thing to. I love my glock, but my 24/7 is my PM9..But if I was a LEO it would definitely be a high capacity gun, and for me probably a glock. I nver thought they were butt ugly like some have, Certainly not a looker like the 1911 but forme that is agun that has served its time . I would not want it on my side...

[kramm]

I think price has a lot to do with why Police don't carry Kahr. More bang for the buck with a Glock. jmo

[bigmacque]

I bought an HK USP Compact from a LEO, it was his former duty buddy as the new agency he works for issued him a Glock. It wasn't really the number of rounds that he was comfortable with, since the HK is 8+1, it was the handling and accuracy of the thing.

I could see someone comfortable with a P45 or TP45 as a duty weapon, but when you consider a G21 or G23 is going to give you stopping power backed up by 13 rounds in a standard mag, for a cop, I would think having a few more rounds available is probably going to tip the scale in the Glocks favor.

[JustinN]

I was an officer for 3 years, no longer work for a department, and I carried a Glock 21. Mag capacity wasn't as high as the issued Glock 17, but it wasn't single digits either. I personally would want something bigger, and double stack. Having been in training gun fights (not any real ones thankfully), 7 rounds would NOT be enough. You have one mag in your gun, and two on your belt = 21+1 in the chamber - fully loaded your at 22 rounds. You face a bad guy with an XDm 9mm or a FN FiveseveN and he has 20 rounds in his gun - not a good situation.

Another issue with a Kahr as a primary carry weapon vs a larger gun is accuracy. My Kahr is fantastic up close, BUT (and this is a P45 mind you) my follow up shots aren't as fast as my XD 45 and at 30 yards or so I'm not nearly as accurate with Kahr...not even close. That sounds far, but as an officer you could potentially be in a situation where you would have to make a shot at that distance, with innocent bystanders nearby. If you can't make the shot at that distance you have to close ground until you can. I'm only 100% confident in my Kahr shots up to about 15 yards - the distance you would need to close may be completely open ground, while a bad guy with an assault rifle is watching you run towards him - probably not a good situation.

Granted, I'm planning for the worst, but as an LEO you have to in my opinion. If you want to survive the worst, you have to be ready for it.

That being said, no question about a Kahr as a backup gun - that would be an awesome/fantastic choice. I just think you need more bullets and a more accurate (at least to me, I'm more accurate with full size guns).

1911s are nice, I really dig them, but not for carry as an LEO. Not enough rounds (now a days) and a safety is a bad idea in high stress situations. Even though it can become a reactionary movement to flip the safety, in high stress situations you lose fine motor control. If someone jumps out of a car and starts shooting at you, your thumb isn't going to work quite right (or it could get shot off). People will argue this, but until you have been in a gun fight (or at least a realistically simulated one) I wouldn't put my life on one. Look up Molly Bowden as an example of this type of issue (not quite the same) - she was a Columbia MO police officer who had a bad guy start shooting at her. She took cover and was attempting to draw her weapon when the bad guy walked up and shot her. Her holster was a twist draw and her baton or flashlight had slid behind the holster where she couldn't twist the gun far enough to draw it. She just kept twisting, attempting to draw the weapon (using muscle memory) but it wasn't working - in the stressful situation she couldn't try something else, just kept returning to muscle memory...very sad situation but also a good learning example imo.

[johnh]

Well my very good friend, I must respectfully disagree regarding the 1911. There is only one answer to working controls: training. Many special operations units, SWAT teams, and quite a few well respected law enforcement agencies have sworn by the 1911 for decades. They do not have issues with safeties. They train their officers to use them. As for ammo capacity, shot placement is far more important. Again, training. If you look at the high profile shootings where vast numbers of rounds were fired, you find the officers who were shooting missed, and missed, and missed...

As far as safeties go, the 1911 has the ideal design for muscle memory use. It goes down as your thumb goes down around the grip. Simple as that. Once the gun is firing, compare the accuracy of a quality 1911 to any Glock. There is no comparison. You mention 30 yard shots. A good 1911 can put the rounds in an inch at that range. Glocks can do that IF you replace the barrel, tune the trigger, replace the sights.... :D

So my money will always be on the 1911 as my preferred carry. I think the Glock is a great choice for defensive use, and as you know I am warming back up to using one for CCW under certain circumstances. However, it will not replace my 1911s as preferred firearm. The Glock to me is much like the AK is to rifles. It is cheap, it always works, but an M4 can do much more in the hands of a well trained operator. So can a good 1911. ;)

John

[CS534]

As an LEO I am aware of several departments here in Ohio that carry 1911 pistols as the standard duty weapon. While in the academy I had a firearms instructor who carries an HK P7 as his duty gun and swears by it. To him it is the best choice and it is all that he uses. Sure Hi-cap gives you an advantage but it only takes 1 shot to end a threat, if well placed. We can argue caliber and firearms all day long, the bottom line is whatever makes the shooter do his best is a good choice. I would rather have a weapon I feel comfortable with than something that is bulky and uncomfortable. Sure if Kahr had a hi-cap double stack it might be considered, but just so you all know that there are depts out there that have only 22 rds of 45 on patrol.

[JustinN]

... Many special operations units, SWAT teams, and quite a few well respected law enforcement agencies have sworn by the 1911 for decades....

I'm just speaking from experience, for a normal patrol officer, in most departments. With enough training and practice, yes, it can be done, obviously...BUT you then have to compare the amount of training most normal patrol officers outside the academy (with SPD being the exception to the academy rule for local departments - 1000 hours). I would say over half the people in my academy didn't own a gun and a quarter of them had never fired one before the academy....something tells me with their minimum range time required its not gonna happen for them - obviously just my opinion, but with personal experience backing it up.

Same thing with the capacity - certain people do not need the rounds but the "normal" officer...? I got yelled at in my academy for only putting one bullet in the paper target bad guys - the .45 caliber hole through the upper lip, just below the nose every time, but that wasn't good enough...I had to put two in the body and one in the head. If I carried a Kahr 45 may mag would be half empty on the first bad guy, assuming all were on target and he went down...that was my point with round capacity. The training most officers receive will not mesh well with a low capacity gun, especially if you throw in a safety. Now, with a SWAT team, who gets to practice weekly, or an exceptional officer who takes himself to the range multiple times and practices, instead of the 4 times a year, he could do better.....I was giving an opinion on "most normal patrol officers in a stereotypical department".

Maybe the answer isn't too look at the guns, but the training.....

[jocko]

there was a statistic a few years back with the NYPD that said over 70% of rounds shot at a person under 6 feet (not 6 yards now mind u) MISSED THEIR TARGET . Caliber means nadda if u don't hit your target, capacity might help, but I am not sure we can ever train to "shoot to kill" either. Normally if it happens you only have once chance to make good.

In my mind I have no doubt 17 rounds is far better than any single stack magazine. If I am gonna miss with a single stack I probalby will miss with the double stack but I would think maybe the odds might swing alittle my way in 17 rounds. Who know, never been there do that.

I have to argee with Justin on this one part. There are many officers that prior to joining and getting trained, never owned, or shot a firearm. They were just normal people to start out. Hw they train after that is alot up to them. Some take that position seriously, some, well it is a job and most of the time a poor paying job in small towns.

Hell in our little town of 5000 we have 7 officers and they carry damn near anything they want. from 9, 40 to 45, nothing standard. To me not good, some are good officers and mean well, some are there only for the job and money. We lose alot of our officers afther they have been here awhile due to very low pay. It is a job until they can find a better paying job.

Training is a must but as most people lknow these small towns and ever larger towns, the PD khas very little money to spare for range time. Hell our officers carried reloads for over a year until a few good citizens found out about it and funneled their funds and went out and bought them fgood defense ammo. I ams ure the state boys are taken care of but some of the state boys that I ride with do their qualifying thing when necessary and other than that most never shoot again. I do feel they might be better trained than small town cops but multiple shot G17 is what the Indiana and Illinois State boys carry..

[jocko]

nice post...kinda good to hear from the inside alot to..

[CS534]

Well said AZ4783054, it seems that you and I have similar tastes. I know that in my academy we had a few "trainees" that had zero gun experience in the academy- and struggled. I would feel comfortable carrying a Kahr with me on duty, I know how they shoot and I can make that first shot count.

[TheTman]

I'm not a LEO, but If I had to choose between TP-45 or a 1911 to carry, I'd probably choose the Kahr since it's trigger is not as touchy as that of a well tuned 1911. Now 25 years ago, probably would have chose the 1911, but nowadays I feel more comfortable with the Kahr trigger. Age and some medical treatments have left me not nearly as sharp as I used to be. I'd sure hate for a sneeze or muscle spasm or something to cause my 1911 to go off and hurt someone, where it probably wouldn't do much with the Kahr trigger, say if you were covering someone, and had your finger on the trigger ready to shoot if needed.
My fireman buddy told me he heard about some cops saying that certain people are alive or at least not shot because they had a Glock with a lot more play in the trigger rather than a single action piece with a light trigger pull. Kind of sounds like urban legend stuff to me, but who knows, It sound like it could have happened.
I am really liking that Kahr trigger with my health issues, since I know it's only going to go off when I want it too. If a Glock 21 was in the running, I'd definately go with that and it's 13+1 round capacity for my duty weapon. Although hopefully by now they'd have me off the streets and behind a desk where it wouldn't matter so much and I'd choose the lightest one. I'm not criticizing the 1911 at all, it's one of my favorite pistols and a damn fine piece of engineering, I guess I'm just not a "cocked and locked" type of guy anymore for an EDC piece.

[earle8888]

I will vote 1911 all the time,. Take exception to the APPROVED Cocked & Locked carry. My training came a long, long, long time ago. All the discussion about safety's and such, I say "Safety is in the hand of the beholder, period! Nothing, I mean nothing is a suitable replacement for proper and adequate training.

[Dogman]

I used to play a LEO in life before I retired, I don't see a problem with carrying a Kahr as a duty gun. As you said they hold as many rounds as a lot of the guns being carried do. How many decades did LEO's carry six shooters. With all the things officers have to carry on their duty belts anymore .... think PM9! :D Be a lot less weight when your chasing those BG's.

[Longitude Zero]

So far I have 27+ years in LEO service and have served in many units and assignments. Many of our current detectives carry Kahr's as their primary weapon. I would NEVER recommend the Kahr for primary uniformed duty carry. Limited ammunition supply, sighting radius way too short etc.

I have carry cocked and locked 1911 and it is safe with a trained operator. I agree that typical academy training is INSUFFECIENT to make anybody competent with the 1911.

My backup is a Kahr.

[jocko]

Longitude zeor. nice post..

[Longitude Zero]

Thanks.

[jlottmc]

I've seen the security forces at Bell Helicopter carry a P45 while on duty. Other than that, most places you go around here either issue one, or have an approved list of full sized pistols.

[Chuck54]

During my thirty year tinure with one agency I carried several different weapons; at times my choice other times the agencies choice.

They were; Colt Police Positive 38spl, S&W model 10, S&W model 64, S&W model 19, S&W model 29, S&W model 60, HK P7M8, Sig 220.

Shotguns were surplus Savage,Ithiaca 37, Remington 870

Currently they issue Glock

I currently carry a Kahr T9 and I would not mind the T9 as a duty weapon. I like the way the T9 handles better than the P7M8.

In todays environment the high cap weapons may be more necessary.

[cgarcop]

NYPD authorized on duty/ off duty firearms


ON DUTY
S&W 5946
Glock 19
Sigarms P226 DAO

All have 15 round mags

OF DUTY
Glock 26
S&W 3914 DAO
Sigarms P239
S&W 3953 TSW
S&W 640 .38
Ruger SPNY

I believe mag capacity is the only thing stopping NYPD from authorizing on duty kahr carry. All on duty NYPD firearms utilize 15 round mags.
The Kahr K9 was removed from the authorized off duty carry list. A few officers are still authorized to carry it but no additional K9 will be authorized for off duty carry

[jocko]

high capacity mags rule today in all LEO agencies. If they are carrying wheelguns,it is because they can't afford to make the change. Our small ass police dept of 7 officers allows anygun they want to buy on their own. They will issue u a G19 but you do not have to carry it. Most all carry glocks but they are 40's and 45 and 9's..

[mr. bggs]

im wwith johnh on this one. who need high capacity if you cant hit anything with it? the poster already said he does not feel comfortable with double stacks so to me the question is not should i carry a single stack, but which single stack should i carry. most mag pouches for glocks can hold two 1911 mags and thats 4 back ups on average plus the 8 or 9 in your gun thats 41 shots at your disposal versus 46 with a glock that has 2- 15 round mags and one in the gun with 1 in the pipe. if you can hit your target with one shot from a 1911 but need 4 or 5 to hit with a glock then it is a no brainer. go with what works for you. it doesnt do alot to comfort a guy whose life is on the line to know that MOST people use glocks well when he cant hit s&^% with it. my .02cents

[jocko]

I shoot my G19 10X better than any of my kahrs!!!

[mr surveyor]

I shoot my Kimber with only 8 rounds better than I shoot snything else I've ever owner (other than a Ruger MkII), but if I were LEO, I would be at the mercy of department regulations regardless. My abilities with firearms are directly proportional to the fit of the firearm, and single stack handguns (most, anyway) fit my hand. If department regs required carry of a large double stack pistol, I could fire it, but it would certainly be spray and pray.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... there ain't no amount of "professional training" that's gonna make my trigger finger grow any longer!

Administration idiots that make "the rules" are the biggest detriment to any organization, whether leo, military, public or private business.

[Fowl Habit]

Ammo capacity and slide length for accuracy are my two reasons I'd stick with my Sig P229R for duty over any Kahr. I would actually prefer the longer slide of the Sig P226R, but that decision is beyond my pay grade.:D

[jfsjr66]

Kahrs are great off duty weapon because they are so easy to conceal. They would also make a great back up weapon, but I wouldn't carry one as my primary duty weapon. I like a little larger weapon for on duty, I'm issued a Glock 23 for duty, and I carry a PM 40 off duty.