First Post and Discouraged

[gmac]

I'll start by saying Hi to everyone and thanks for all the great info. posted on this board regarding the initial prep procedures and Kahr pistols in general. Just what a new owner needs although in retrospect I think I should have skipped one of the preparation steps.

Now the reason for discouragement. I ordered a new PM9 as a Christmas present to myself a few weeks back (reason for joining this forum) and have been trying to read as much info as I can find about initial prep and general maintenance since this is my first Kahr.

Yesterday, armed with Jocko's instructions and a youtube video from Kahr I decided to do the first prep and cleaning prior to what I hoped was a trip
to the range. Everything was going perfect until I came to the part about checking the slide stop screw. Using only the weight of a 5" long No. 6 Torx screwdriver with only my thumb and forefinger to hold it in place I applied the least amount of pressure I could to the screw expecting to feel resistance at which point I was going to figure it was tight enough.
It spun like a top. Without any additional pressure I made several more turns with no sign of the screw getting tighter. I lightly tapped the spring to see if it would move and it didn't but now I feel like it is unsafe to fire the gun and I'll probably be on the hook for a whole new frame even though I know I didn't strip the screw out.

Anyone know what a frame costs? - Discouraged.

[Bawanna]

I'd just call or email Kahr and tell them what's going on. They may want you to send it back for a checkup. Hopefully if it is indeed stripped they can fix or replace on their dime since you were just trying to do things right.
Even if you have to pickup shipping cost thats way better than a new frame.
Won't know till you try anyhow.
Hopefully they will get you fixed up and we can eliminate this discouragement really quick.

Let us know how it shakes out for ya.

[kpm9]

I'm confused. Does the kahr manual specify the need to check the slide stop spring screw? I would think that it came from the factory torqued to the correct specs?

I've never done this.

[jocko]

darn, damn , crap, and all that other stuff. I and many have stated this many times. LEAVE THAT SLIDE STOP SCREW ALONE. What you did my friend was you stripped out the threads of ther polymer frame by tightening this screw, as now you know there is really no such thing as tightening that little screw. I am not faulting you here, just trying to make a point. You meant well, it just didn't turn out that way..

here is what I would do, I would pass on talking to kahr and try this. Take the screw out with your torx tool leave the spring right there, now spray clean it with some no oily cleaner, non cholorinated brake cleaner will do it, Probably alcohol to will do it also. Now take that screw and put it in the torx tool and put some super glue on the threads and screw it back in and let it alone. It will dry tight, it will not move. It will keep that springhty in place and u will be good to go.

If you sent it back to kahr, they will not replace the frame for you but more than likely will do exactly what I just suggested you to do. It will work. When it drys, please "if it ain't broke don't fix it. I have had my PM9 going on 4 years and over 30,000 rounds through it and trust me,I just don't screw with that little screw. I know it feels loose but it is not. It is hard to explain but that little screw just keeps that little spring from going anywhere. That little spring has to have total flexability or it willnot work. So basicaly this area gives no problems at all--if one leaves it alone..

I don't think I have ever read in their manual to ever mess with that slide stop spring. I and many here feel if there is a weak spot on the polymer kahrs it is in this springhy area. My opinion is that this little screw should screw into a metal insert, Also this little screw as you well know is so damn small and the threads are so fine that there is just no way for anyone to tighten it, for you never know if you went that extra quarter turn and then stripped out the threads. the threads are still in the polmer, so I do feel the super glue will seal tight. Do not use locktite as it will not do much of anything.

If that does not work please PM me and we will chat further.. take your time, don't loose confidence, all will be OK.

[jocko]

I'm confused. Does the kahr manual specify the need to check the slide stop spring screw? I would think that it came from the factory torqued to the correct specs?

I've never done this.

dead right, the kahr manual doesn't mentiont that area, for they don't want anyone messing in that area. There really is no torque specs to it. It really doesn't give any issues unless one messes in that area.

[gb6491]

gmac,
Welcome to the forums.
I sorry to read that you come under such circumstance.
To your problem:
As you were careful with the screw and assuming it wasn't damaged at the factory, let's look at the possibility that the hole is not stripped. I think the safest way to check this is to try backing the screw out of the frame; give it some turns counterclockwise and see if moves out or the washer loosens. If the hole is truly stripped, I doubt trying this would cause any further damage. If the screw turns out, I doubt the frame is stripped. If that's the case, carefully tighten the screw back down to the point that only the un-captured end of the spring moves (not the whole spring).
If the hole is stripped, I advise you take Bawanna's advice and contact Kahr about repair. It's possible they will have to replace the frame, but other possibilities that come to mind are they install a larger diameter screw or a helicoil.
Regards,
Greg

[OldLincoln]

Oh, and the same goes for the other tiny screw on the right side of the frame. Gotta leave it alone also - Jocko said so and he's usually right (except for riding over spilt ice cream, sigh).

[gpo1956]

I own and shoot a TP45 and I really enjoy it. However, I've always been a little leary of the polymer framed Kahrs due to their handling of the slide stop and spring. Honestly, its a Mickey Mouse design. A tiny screw directly into a plastic frame? Lets be honest here guys, its a problem waiting to happen.

[jocko]

probably a couplehundred thousands kahrs out there that have this screw in the side of the frame. It realy is a no issue. I don't think it is a problem waiting to happen. I wish it wa sdifferent but again I have never had one issue with mine. I don't mess with it, it willnot give anissue unless one doesnt' do it right. I know of many forum members who have replaced that little spring even and enver compaoined aobut strippingout that screw, ./ It is certainly not te way i would want to design it, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it...

gb 6496. a frame replacement invllves reregistering the weapon also. as they cannot replce the frame with the same serial number. Kahr will not use helical coils in that gun either. A larger diameter screw is a possability but it has to be able to go through that cupped washer and that hole is made for this size screw. My bet is that it will be super glued or epoxied back in place. Not sure kahr will even tell us how they fix that area even. Probably less known the better from their standpoint..

[kpm9]

I disagree that it a problem waiting to happen. I've got thousands of rounds through only polymer framed Kahr's and have never had a problem in this area.

[jocko]

I disagree that it a problem waiting to happen. I've got thousands of rounds through only polymer framed Kahr's and have never had a problem in this area.

a big amen to that. No one is accusing the fella of stripping the thread. he stated he did, and didn't realize what he had done, expecting it to tighten up like a normal screw might. I have read where shooters even strip a grip screw by over doing it. and that is metal into metal. It can happen, that is for sure, that fact that it is so so rare indicates that it is a non issue- unless it happens to you the owner.

I still would go with my suggestion of the super glue, for if that fails which it should not, then a trip back to kahr for their fix or replacement would be in order.

Many here have fixed the drifting trigger pin thing with a drop of super glue on the pin and then pushing it back into place. My PM9 started that a few years ago and I did just that (with the approval of kahr's tech people) and it has never moved..

The bottom line is that the decision remains with the owner of this gun as to which method he will choose. For me I would not let this little screw thing dictate me buying a new frame for it, not when there are methods out there to fix it,,, If one feels unsecure about some of the suggestions, then give kahr a call and talk to one of the techs and run buy your suggestion to them of the super glue etc and get their feed back. If they say no no it must come back for us to fix it, then I would at least ask them what their fix is to..


GMAC; PM sent... good luck

[500KV]

I'm with jocko on this one.
If it were mine..Not telling you what to do with your gun mind you..but I'd clean the screw, as advised, and use a "small amount" of epoxy (I personally like JB WELD) on the screw threads, screw it in, let it set up and problem solved.
I'd bet you wont have any more trouble with it.
You could always send it back to Kahr but that's probably what they would do.
Just my .02 and worth exactly what you paid for it.
Good luck.

[Wilson2008]

That screw came loose on my PM45 after a couple thousand rounds (don't remember the exact count now. Around 2500.)

When it is loose, the spring doesn't keep the slide lock lever down and it can jump up and lock the slide open mid-magazine. This is how I figured out it was loose.

Mine tightened up gently but firmly using light finger pressure on the torx driver. On the advise of my gunsmith I used some clear fingernail polish on the threads, tightened it and forgot about it. I'm at 3500 rounds now and it hasn't been a problem since.

If you are worried about it, check the tightness of the little curved spring. If it isn't wiggling around when you touch it, don't worry about the screw.

Sample of one, take it FWIW.

- Wilson

[kpm9]

The super glue and nail polish are both good suggestions and will both work.
I've used super glue on roll pins for the front sights of UMP which are common for drifting and have never had problem then removing the pins.
Again polymer.

I'd almost think if you just shot the gun, the screw is not going to back out, due to the slide and the tension put on by the spring. I'd be more worried about it falling out during disassembly. good suggestions to keep it captive though.

Glad I read this post, to know what not to do.

[gb6491]

gb 6496. a frame replacement invllves reregistering the weapon also. as they cannot replce the frame with the same serial number. Kahr will not use helical coils in that gun either. A larger diameter screw is a possability but it has to be able to go through that cupped washer and that hole is made for this size screw. My bet is that it will be super glued or epoxied back in place. Not sure kahr will even tell us how they fix that area even. Probably less known the better from their standpoint..
Jocko,
It's understood that replacing the frame will probably require registration, but it's still a likely repair scenario.
You are probably right about the helcoil as I don't know if they are made that small.
The hole in the washer is already oversize compared to the screw so I think that a larger diameter screw is still a viable repair option. The screw head size is probably more critical in regards to the washer (as the hole in it could be reamed out for a larger diameter screw if needed).
http://i56.tinypic.com/3310x1z.jpg

The problem, I see with super gluing the screw in place is that it might not be possible to get enough pressure on the spring to hold it in place correctly and this can lead to slide lock problems as Wilson mentioned above:

That screw came loose on my PM45 after a couple thousand rounds (don't remember the exact count now. Around 2500.)
When it is loose, the spring doesn't keep the slide lock lever down and it can jump up and lock the slide open mid-magazine. This is how I figured out it was loose....

I experienced the same issue as Wilson did and came to the same solution (though in a roundabout way:().

Personally, I'd like to see a steel insert molded into the frame in that area.

Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

I like the steel insert idea. That would solve alot of issues.

[jocko]

The super glue and nail polish are both good suggestions and will both work.
I've used super glue on roll pins for the front sights of UMP which are common for drifting and have never had problem then removing the pins.
Again polymer.

I'd almost think if you just shot the gun, the screw is not going to back out, due to the slide and the tension put on by the spring. I'd be more worried about it falling out during disassembly. good suggestions to keep it captive though.

Glad I read this post, to know what not to do.

and ruger both have suggested that if you have drifting frame pins to either masch the pin oblong and drive it back in (which most of the time does not work either) or super glue the pin and push it back in (which works every time) If one studies that special cupped washer, you will notice that the center is concaved so that the little screw tightens it against the polymer frame while allowing the little spring to fit around it and yet retains its flexability. This is a must for that little sprighy, It must remain flexible.there is really no external pressure to get that screw loose either, but if one strips it, he must now provide some other type of adhesion other than just the metal screw into polmer threads and this is where super glue, finger nail polish comes in to play. They both harden and fill those stripped threads up and adhear to tghe metal screw. It will work, I have no doubt about that.

If I ever have to take that little screw out, I would as a preventative measure apply some fingernail polish or super glue to the threads when reinserting it. Just to me gives it some additional holding strengh, for peace of mind anyhow. Like I have state, My PM9 is about 4 years old, has over 30,000 rounds through it, cleaned hundreds of times, AND I HAVE NEVER SCREWED WITH THAT LITTLE SCREW. Nadda, zero, never even tested to see if it was loose or what, as we well know that here is no such thing as"tight" either, snug is the proper word but even that is different for every person who is snugging that screw.

I think this is about one of the few incidents that I have read of even of anyone stripping that screw out so we are making IMO to much to do about something that really should not happen IF ONE IS CAREFUL..:third: Probably well over 200,000 polymer kahrs out there to..

For me, my last resort would certainly be sending it back to kahr , AFTER I tried some of the forum members suggestions. Remember not all the brite people work at kahr either. We have some super brite people here that know what they are saying..

[gmac]

Thanks to everyone for what seem to be some good ideas out of this mess.
I never thought I would receive so many good replies.
At least I feel like I have a few options now.
Maybe the PM9 will end up as something other than a paper weight after all.

Thanks again,
gmac

[gpo1956]

Jocko,
I realize you're a Kahr guru, and I actually agree with you on some points. However, on this one, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Finger nail polish and super glue are not two products that should be mentioned in maintaining a CCW. For this not to be a problem or at least a concern, there certainly are a lot of posts concerning this. Also, if a weapon is so delicate that it can't be detail stripped regularly, as needed, then I question its desirablilty as an everyday CCW weapon. Nightstand gun, sure. I'm still a little leary for a dedicated CCW.

[garyb]

gpo1956, Leary due to handling of the slide stop and spring???? Mickey Mouse Design???? A problem waiting to happen??? Would your comment be applied to all other polymer frames...Glocks, Springfields, S&W's, etc...???? Really man, I don't think so. Factory and user mistakes arise man. Polymer frames can last a lifetime and are known to be reliable. It is just one of those things that can happen to anyone and any gun. It's mechanical.... a factory mistake or user error and it can be fixed. I am sure your TP45 is a nice gun but this is no reason to get excited or critical. Like Jocko said, there are a couple hundred thousand "Functioning" polymer frames out there. I've never had a problem with my PM40 either, but anything can happen to metal OR polymer. It's one of those things that can happen and will be repaired.

[jreXD9]

use Gorilla Glue.

[wyntrout]

You have to be joking about that! Gorilla Glue FOAMS and expands before curing and can be messy... not for precision!:eek:

I was told by the guys who know at Kahr to only tighten those screws until I felt resistance... no force or extra turns. I used just the Torx bit to prevent over-torquing.

Gmac, have you fired the gun yet? I would email Kahr with the description of what happened and include pictures. If YOU did not strip the screw on a new gun, maybe it happened at the factory. I think that a certain amount of tension or tightness... not too tight, though, is needed for the spring to perform both of its functions... holding the slide lock pin in place and providing the downward pressure on the slide lock until the magazine is empty and pushes up the slide lock for engagement.

If it's stripped I think you'll need a new frame and that's like a new gun... requiring a new registration. Kahr will include a notice that they have taken possession of the original frame and list the replacement frame's serial number, so that you can show that you're not responsible for the original serial number anymore.

If you can't convince Kahr that the new gun came to you that way, then maybe you could try one of the suggestions or something like filling the screw hole with JB Weld (after making sure all lubricants have been cleaned out) and then tapping that somehow for a new screw and washer.

Wynn

[jocko]

for no tighter than what that little screw went into that polymer frame. super glue, or fingernail polish will do exactly the same thing. Snug is probably the right word as there is no such thing as tightening that little screw into the polymer . It really never feels like it is tight, thats why if it ain't broke don't fix it..

I have no doubt wyn, kahr would fix that gun in house and not require a new frame. to my knowledge I have not heard of them requiring that. What their method is, I cannot say but I would bet is has the word glue in their fix.... this little item is fixable and as good as new IMO

[jocko]

use Gorilla Glue.

wold have to be the worlds worst glue to use in that area.... No doubt once it dried and EXPANDED, it would hold the screw, spring, washer, slide lock from ever moving:D

I trust you were really joking to. That glue acts like a compressed sponged being released..

[kramm]

GMAC,
I've been reading along as to your problem. If it were mine I would contact Kahr and see what they have to say before doing anything else to it. If they say they will fix it or replace it at no cost to you(doubt they will) then send it back. If they say it's on you, then try what Jacko said and try super glue. Just don't use too much glue and clean real good first. jmho

[Jim K]

What kind of plastic are the polymer frames made of?

Has anyone tried this stuff?

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/epxy_plstc_s/overview/Loctite-Epoxy-Plastic-Bonder.htm

I've tried regular epoxy on plastic before with poor results. This stuff has some sort of solvent in it to soften the plastic to help adhesion. Works OK.

I purchased it a wallyworld last time.

Buy it fresh then use it now.

[recoilguy]

I feel bad for the OP there are many folks who want to check everything. Even the stuff they shouldn't. If you are gonna check everything please be very careful.

I would take Trouts advice it seems very sound to me.

RCG

[jocko]

I have used that locktite type epoxy. It is good stuff. If it is any different than regular expoxy, I can't say. It is a damn good bonder. I think if I was going to go with epoxy bebeingit mixes sorta thick and not runnby like crazy glue or super glue, I would take a pin andjust poke that epoxny right in the frame hole and then run some on the metal threads. I wold be my car that that sh-it would hold and u would never ever have an issue.

[wyntrout]

That little spring is very important in the proper operation of the pistol. If it's too tight or too loose, you have problems... trouble and uncertainty aren't good in your CC Weapon of choice. You're betting your life it will work when you need it. Epoxying or any other "permanent" fixes are going to negate the possibility of adjustment or replacement of those vital parts... which is why Kahr will probably replace the frame. They have liability concerns as well.
I had problems with those parts and replaced them with parts Kahr sent me, using their instructions and haven't had a problem. I'm one of those guys that always needs just one more quarter turn... just to make sure... until snap... OH Sh**! I just used my fingers and the Torx bit and haven't had a problem since.
I've gone through a frame replacement as well... when the PM45 was eating magazines. Evidently Kahr was able to reproduce that result enough, and the only thing that stopped the problem was a new frame, necessitating shipping to a dealer and paying for re-registration... another yellow sheet and phone call. I did get a certificate from Kahr stating that they had taken possession of the old frame and serial number and listed the new replacement one. This will be handy when the gubment comes to confiscate your goodies and you'll be able to prove that you don't have that serial number anymore and aren't holding out on them. :D

If you do decide to do something yourself, get a new screw, washer, and spring, and start with all new, undamaged parts. If any one of those things is less than perfect, you can have trouble.

I'm fixin' to strap on Boomer, stop by and pick up my buddy, then head up to Georgia to participate in that $196 million Mega Millions drawing tonight. Half of that in cash would really get my Kahr collection complete... and a few other brands as well, even after the Feds take 40%. :D For me it's about an 80-mile round trip and about $20 worth of gas... $3 a gallon down here now... give or take a penny, or tenth!:(

Wynn:)