Police call, concealed carry issue

[CS534]

I'm not sure what made me remember this but I figure I will share with everyone...About 2 years ago while I was finishing my FTO program with a police department I received a call involving a man with a gun outside of an apartment complex..it was early in the day. Myself and another Officer arrived on scene and initially we didn't see anyone. After knocking on a few doors we were told that a man had been outside near his truck with no shirt on and a gun on his side. After knocking on another door we met the suspect. As he stepped outside to talk with us I noticed that he had a gun on his belt at about 5 o'clock. Immediately we had him turn around and removed it (he did not initially indicate that he had a gun). While he was turning around he stated that he was a concealed carry permit holder and he had a "badge". On his belt near his gun was a generic badge which had "concealed carry permit holder" on it.
Eventually the man provided ID and it was determined that he did in fact have a CCW, however we informed him that a generic badge by no means provides any proof in the state of Ohio. I also informed the man that it would be in his best interest to keep his gun concealed in the future.

I should note that prior to becoming a Police Officer I held, and still hold, a CCW permit in Ohio. I was well aware of the CCW laws perhaps even more than some of the other Officers in the department. The man may not have broken the law, and his gun was returned to him, but common sense should have told him not to go outside with his gun visible in the middle of the morning, in a crowded apartment complex. Even off-duty police are required to keep their guns concelaed. And the whole badge thing, could have got him in trouble too. Hope you enjoyed this little story!

[jimbar]

I was told by all my friends when I got my CCW permit that in any instance I happen to be in involving LEO's, I should let it be known I am carrying, and have a permit.
Just common sense, it seems. If I were an officer, I would be really upset to find that someone standing next to me was armed, and hadn't told me.

[DasFriek]

Being Open carry is legal in Ohio he did nothing wrong until he met you guys and didn't inform you he was carrying his weapon.
The badge is the dumbest thing you could wear or possess as imo its someone trying to impersonate a LEO.
Lastly even tho OC is legal in Ohio it doesn't mean you can be careless or dumb about it.
I too live in Ohio and about the most OC ive done was run out to my car and grab something i forgot and didn't put a jacket on over my weapon. I live in a small town so its very doubtful anyone saw or cared.
But in higher population areas i highly suggest going concealed as people in Ohio just aren't used to seeing OC and they will freak out.

It sounds like you and your partner were pretty well versed in the law of OC which not everyone is and didn't hassle the guy even when you could have. I know i would have been upset if i was a LEO and was talking to someone and didn't find out he was carrying until i discovered it myself when he turned to expose it.

[CS534]

Dasfriek..Open carry is legal of course, but like I told the man, keep it concealed or else someone will call on you every time..these days that is the inevitable

[Bawanna]

Precisely correct and the more they try to exercise their right the more calls they will get.
Sure it's legal but don't plan on getting anyplace fast cause you'll know every officer by name.
So much easier to just be descreet.

[mr surveyor]

the badge thing is one of the biggest jokes on the gun boards. I can't believe that someone actually wore one, and found themselves in that position. Sounds to me like the guy was intentionally trying to plant false ideas into his neighbor's heads by displaying his firearm and his "badge" on his belt.


surv

[Moby Clarke]

Sorry, but I must disagree. If OC is legal, then he and everyone else has every right to do so and it is up to the police, and their dispatch, to prove a crime has been committed. The simple fact of carrying a gun is not grounds to believe a crime has been committed.

That officers react poorly at the sight of a gun is a training issue, not a citizen's issue to quell said officers concerns.

We went through this same thing in MN when our permit to carry law was changed. Now, I open carry most everywhere when not wearing a coat. I was challenged once or twice, and now it is not a problem. The Twin Cities metro area officers learned, some took more "training" than others, but now, OC is dealt with at the dispatch level, as it should be.

[DasFriek]

CS534- Im not disagreeing with you, Im actually glad to see LEO's that knows the OC laws.
You could have hassled the guy over the stupid badge, But even worse not informing you he had a firearm on his person while in your proximity.

I always go concealed, I don't need the hassle OC has that goes along with it.
Just because something is legal doesn't mean it isn't stupid. I only say its stupid when your in a high population area and one known for illegal activities and stick out like a sore thumb walking around with a gun exposed on your hip in downtown Columbus, Ohio.

Imo he could have been possibly charged for not disclosing his weapon while in the proximity of the Police. He knew they couldn't see it also.
I also feel this guy was most likely just asking for trouble.

But it goes both ways also, You ca have LEO's who don't know the OC laws well and some that do and will hassle you and possibly trump up anything to arrest you if they can.
What im saying is it goes both ways.

But my main point is im glad the OP knows the laws about OC and isnt a jerk about it even when he could have had reason to be.

I don't like legal discussions, But i felt id like to say im glad there are LEO's like the OP in my state.

[deuce]

In Columbus,Oh, all it would take is that neighbor who called to say that she felt threatened and Mr. ccw holder would have gotten to see the inside of the Franklin Co. jailhouse. Although he had not intentionally broken any laws (with the exception of not letting the officer know he was carrying) he could have been held for menacing or a number of other things. The charges may not have stuck but he would most definately gone downtown. I say it's easier for everyone if the gun is just kept concealed in highly populated areas......IMO

[jocko]

same thing with these yahoos going into Starbucks because they allow OC, how dumb is that and then they get on national TV and that really pumps them up. These are the kind of people that will cause us to loose these rights

Common sense goes a very long way IMO. I drink coffee occassionaly with some State boys that I ride harleys with and I have never told them I carry, nor do I intend to. If I was being arrested for something, then that is a different scenario IMO I just choose to not muddy upt he waters with people in my presence.

There are indeed some people because they have a clean record are legal to own and OC a gun but that does not mean they should be..

[garyb]

The problem is not the police, the witness, nor the person carrying. We have crazy State laws in this country. We need good, clear, common sense, national carry laws, which support our amendment.

[jocko]

probalby right but we won't see a national carry law, States don't want the feds messing in their business and I partially agree with that to, All 50 states can have a ccw permit but as u know they don't have to honor another states either. I can legally leave my home of Indiana and ride my Harley down to florida and carry legally, but I cerrtainly woldnot want to do that with the gun riding on my side in the open for all to see. I am sure I would eventualy get to florida but I would bet I would be alittle late getting there BUT yet I can't legally ride into my adjoining state of Illinois with my gun on my body ANYWHERE.

[CS534]

Sure, the guy didn't break any laws by having his gun visible..but everyone needs to remember that when the police receive a call, whether its a man with a gun, or a barking dog, they must investigate. They are public servants who must please the citizens of the community. Some Officers react differently to gun calls or contact with CCW holders. I never had any issues with CCW holders as I was, and am, a permit holder myself. Usually when you're on a traffic stop with a CCW holder, the Officer already knows about the ccw license after running the registration plate. Several times I had permit holders forget to tell me they had a license, again I am pretty laid back when dealing with CCW holders. But then again, some other Officers aren't so laid back. The best thing you can do is keep that gun concealed and inform any law enforcement when necessary. Even off-duty Police are required to keep their weapons concealed.

[jocko]

not so in Indiana. They can run all the stuff they want and they have no clue if u have a permit. BMV is not given this info by the Indiana state police..

[Dietrich]

"badges? We don` need no steenkin`badges.":d

[CS534]

jocko..I did not know that. All the more reason that CCW holders ID themselves to Police

[jocko]

It is that way in Indiana, so no way an out of state copy would know an Indiana person is carry legally, as his BMV check would not show that. One has to make his own judgement on what to do next.

[DasFriek]

It is BURNED into my brain that if i get pulled over that my hands go on my steering wheel and after i hit the button that rolls my window down and the first words out of my mouth are that i am carrying my weapon on my person.

I guess i take my license rather serous as i don't want to do anything that may jeopardize it.
In the end its really common sense, Most people know when OC is acceptable or when it could create issues. If im speaking to LE for more than a "HI, How are you?" im gonna mention my license and my weapon.
Not out of being scared or fear of retribution but out of courtesy.

I know many people really push OC and the laws to its limits as they feel its their constitutional rights, Just go read some of the OC forums. Ive read them but found the people behind most of it a bit more interested in pushing the laws, LEO's and the public to see OC as they want it to be as a normal everyday practice.
IMO They hurt their cause more than they help it.
The biggest thing they could do is inform the public of the laws rather then pushing them upon them by OCing at the worst times and places.

[jocko]

DAS fRIEK;IMO They hurt their cause more than they help


IMO u could not be more correct..

[BobR]

probalby right but we won't see a national carry law, States don't want the feds messing in their business and I partially agree with that to, All 50 states can have a ccw permit but as u know they don't have to honor another states either. I can legally leave my home of Indiana and ride my Harley down to florida and carry legally, but I cerrtainly woldnot want to do that with the gun riding on my side in the open for all to see. I am sure I would eventualy get to florida but I would bet I would be alittle late getting there BUT yet I can't legally ride into my adjoining state of Illinois with my gun on my body ANYWHERE.

Hi Jocko,

The Federal Government, in a strict Constitutional interpretation, could not constitutionally administer some sort of national carry permit - the 2nd ammendment strictly forbids the sort of neccessary regulation, forbidding the power to the Federal Government.

That said, equally strictly speaking Constiutionally, since the passage of the 14th Amendment, the Feds not only have the power - but have the moral duty and responsibility to *require* states honor the carry permits of other states, under the Equal Protection Clause.

Illinois, and most other States, even very "gun friendly" states, have laws regarding carriage of arms that, since Heller, and the Chicago case, are out of step with not only the US Constitution, but the Constitution of their own states. Massachusetts is a classic example of the latter case, with a more clearly worded bill of rights regarding carriage of arms, and a truckload of laws utterly against its own Constitution, passed not only on a State level, but by local jurisdictions.

ETA, just tto head the concept off at the pass, States (and the Federal Government) have *powers*, not rights - only individual citizens have rights.

[BobR]

Dasfriek..Open carry is legal of course, but like I told the man, keep it concealed or else someone will call on you every time..these days that is the inevitable

Just to clarify my own position, I will only open carry when hunting, as concealed carry gives a huge tactical advantage to a trained citizen in dire peril, after all, any dufus might try to disarm you if you open carry, and injure an innocent, themselves, or yourself in a struggle for a legally carried weapon. I bet most open-carriers don't think a heck of a lot about retention holster, or weapon rentention tactics, nevermind train for that possibility as many departments do.

That out of the way, does a right really exist if we are afraid to excersise it? Maybe open carry advocates are on to something, like those fellows in Virginnia who orgainise open-carry public get-togethers, to educate the public and excersise their right.

If we don't educate the public, and excersise our rights to the fullest extent, are we not playing into the hands of gun-banners who have tried for 40 and more years to stigmitize legitimate gun owners and ownership, and responsible gun use?

[jocko]

I also feel that common sense should sometimes trump a "right". It is IMO that if we try to shove this down people's throats and business throats we might just loose this right..


Why do not these virginia guys do this open carry crapola in a post officer, or federal building??? or A school??? they pick on a business to make their point, which they know at best they will be asked to leave where in the other 3 mentioned, THEY WILL GO TO JAIL.. I call these type of guys ATTNETION GETTERS and nothing more. I personally don't want them representing me.

[BobR]

There is a difference between education, and exposure, and "shoving things down peoples throats" - the latter is what the gun-grabbers try to do.

Also, I wouldn't put a natural Right in "quotes" - we can never "lose" a natural right, it can merely be supressed. Patriotic men and women have laid down their lives by the thousand to guarentee our rights, with their blood, and secure our liberty for future generations. Should we not step up to the plate, and do our part to insure it passes on to generations after ours?

Even as dedicated men and women of the Armed Forces, and Law Enforcement, make daily sacrifices to ensure the survival of our country, is it not also our bounden duty to do all we can as individuals, to support and defend those rights?

[jocko]

we just "disagree" u also didn't asnswer my question , why don't they really make a stand and go in mass into a post officer, or federal builiding or school playgrounds. Why isn't that our natural right to.????.... No they pick their weak spots to go after. Common sense will serve to protect our rights also..

and personally I do feel that going into a Starbucks in mass is shoving it down people's throats. I have no doubt if they do it enough and none gun carry people complain enough to Starbucks Inc. that that policy will change.... Why people choose to carry open carry to me is confusing. to the BG it is an open book saying heh look I have a gun but we don't know who the bad guy is but he now knows who the good guy carrying the gun is= advantage BG..

One will be challenged by LEO and alot. I would think we would choose not to go throgh this hassle to prove it is "oUR RIGHT".. I can see that for some I am dead wrong, but thats OK to for it is our "right" to disagree also.

[Bawanna]

We have been here before on more than one occasion and in a couple cases it got downright ugly!

Lets think happy thoughts and keep open minds. Stay in your lane, no jousting, and give a wave to any biker you meet even if he's not on a Harley.

Play nice, we're all in the same sand box.

[jocko]

u mean bawanna, u really mean I have to wave to a honder rider??. Do I use all 5 fingers or can I just show him he is still #1. I need your advice here, as I don't want to get 3 points assessed to me for crossing the NEUTRAL ZONE"..

BOB r AND i ARE COOL, we just disagree in a gentlemen way, unless he rides a honder then I guess the gloves might fall off!!

alittle advice here to all. I went to see the FOKERS yesterday with my wife. Absolutley the worlds worst movie I have set through in years If you seen the film clips on TV advertisng it and you laughed, then trust me you seen every laugh in that entire movie. Now had I been open carrying, I might have taken the law or "my right" into my own hands and spared any future viewers the pain and aguish I just went through..

[DasFriek]

I think when the OC rights activists organize large gatherings to promote OC is the best way to make the public aware of OC and the laws.
Generally gatherings like that are organized and not just one person trying to push his rights to the limits, And i feel the public can and do get the point better when they see professionals and ladies all OCing together to help enlighten the public.

But as with all people and groups you will have people push the limits in the wrong way and this making the "Cause" take a step backwards instead of forwards.

At time i do feel sorry for the LEO's who have to deal with alot of this when they themselves feel concealed and OC for the general public is a good thing, And then they have to deal with an aggressive OC person who pushes his limits on the subject it just makes that LEO less supportive of the cause.

Anyhow, If a local group did an organized OC gathering with a good cause and a goal in mind id love to go, But you wont catch me even in my small town OCing as concealed has way to many advantages.
But if i was in the woods and not around many people OC would be the way to go and most people wouldn't think much of it either.

[Jeremiah/Az]

I have read all of these posts & see all points. Here in Az. there is & always has been OC laws. There are also CC permits. I have mine & carry both ways. You can CC here without a permit also. There is no duty to inform an officer that you are armed or have a permit. I see OC everyday & no one thinks anything about it. I suppose it depends on where you live. I understand the surprise element of CC, but how many times would a BG not mess with someone they see who is armed? Criminals want easy targets & don't want to get shot. Good discussion!

[mr surveyor]

as to the original post, I'm mainly concerned about the idiotic "badge" flashing on the belt with the weapon only inches away. Legal OC is one thing, but sporting the bling beside the weapon that can't be identified at any reasonable distance as costume jewelry is asking for trouble. I bet there's more to the story, including a case of attitude...or attitudes involved.

[Bawanna]

Here in Washington that would be clear cut impersonating an officer.

Not looked upon kindly by real officers round these parts.

[CS534]

Bawanna- I agree that it is almost impersonating. I can see someone getting charged for that, but we didn't. Of course the only true ID here in Ohio is the actual license. I have never had to ask for one though because in Ohio whenever you run a persons info you get an immediate alert. As for the whole badge thing, I think the guy was a "cop wannabe" I remember him telling me that he was once trying to become an Officer.

[Bawanna]

I suspect your exactly correct. We have a few around here that drive retired cop cars and just intimidate people. They are cop wannabes too.
Your guy was very lucky that he had you a cop with a little common sense and an open mind, many would have caused him nothing but grief.
In our office many would have done just what you did, others would have seized the gun which we office puikes would no doubt have to return in due time but it still balls up the already balled up system.
Had one officer bring in a shotgun because the serial number wasn't visible under a side saddle. Said the guy didn't have the tools needed to removed the sidesaddle to see the serial number so he seized it.
Since we had it, I removed and ran the number, then called an gave it back.
Just too many little rules about guns for officers to know them all.

[BobR]

u mean bawanna, u really mean I have to wave to a honder rider??. Do I use all 5 fingers or can I just show him he is still #1. I need your advice here, as I don't want to get 3 points assessed to me for crossing the NEUTRAL ZONE"..

BOB r AND i ARE COOL, we just disagree in a gentlemen way, unless he rides a honder then I guess the gloves might fall off!!

alittle advice here to all. I went to see the FOKERS yesterday with my wife. Absolutley the worlds worst movie I have set through in years If you seen the film clips on TV advertisng it and you laughed, then trust me you seen every laugh in that entire movie. Now had I been open carrying, I might have taken the law or "my right" into my own hands and spared any future viewers the pain and aguish I just went through..

We are cool! Like I said, I will not personally OC unless I am hunting, or trail riding, for that matter.

No worries on the Iron horse front either, I wouldn't be caught dead riding a Honda. I love Harley Davidsons, although I could never afford what I would want, as I would want an old 1940's Flat Head, done up as a WWII couriers or MP bike.

Only other motorcycle I'd consider riding or owning is an Indian.

That said, the only horse I ride is flesh and blood, and in two eras of reenactment. He takes a fence better than a Harley...

[DasFriek]

You old guys are just jealous you cant hang off the side of a Honda Rocket and get your knee down at 60mph is a 90 degree turn.
I did that upto 2-3 years ago and had to stop as my body couldn't take it anymore. I just turned 39 for the second time this year.
Id come home so sore in my legs from hanging off the bike i couldn't walk right for 3 days, My back was a whole other worse story besides that.

I cant even see me on a HD tho, I just never liked cruisers.
Put me on a Ducati or Triumph cafe racer and id be all over that for at least 50 miles when my bones fall off the bike in agony.

[mr surveyor]

I can balance on a stationary tricycle...does that count?

[ltxi]

I'm a retired professional Colorado resident who travels a lot but only frequently carries in CO, FL, PA, and VA (a non-resident PA permit covers VA for me). So these comments are all in that context.

--Those lovely, enameled, pro quality CCW badges are just plain stupid. Anyone who even buys, let alone displays one should be viewed as a wannabe with ego issues and treated appropriately.
-- Open carry just for the sake of open carry is simple minded, provocative, ego driven behavior. Just plain dumb. It politically damages all of us who take our rights seriously. I openly carry a sidearm only when necessary or maybe very convenient...in the field hunting, on the range, or when on my way back/forth.
-- I would never disclose the fact that that I'm armed to a LEO during casual contact...unless specifically asked or required by law. Why escalate a speeding ticket stop if not necessary?

[wyntrout]

A big Ditto, Itxi. Unless you think you're an item of interest for search or legally required, why escalate, indeed?! Unrequired disclosure of being armed can only complicate things... escalate is a good word.

After 21 years or so without a ticket, I got stopped for speeding (77 in a 70 zone) in Kentucky when returning from Thanksgiving with my kids in Illinois a few years ago. CCW never came up but the cop asked me three times, at least, if I was sure I wasn't law enforcement because I have a Florida Sheriffs Association Youth Ranch license plate. I'm an honorary member of the FSA but I don't have decals and I don't carry the card... which says on the back something about not trying to use it to get out of a ticket. I very politely and respectfully answered truthfully that I wasn't and that I just supported that worthy cause for helping wayward youths. The ticket cost $172!! Prior to that incident, I had been stopped once locally and just given a warning. I fully expected a ticket there for sure, but I had no record and was somewhat elderly at 60 or so. :)

I remember when I first saw those CCW permit "badges"... it can only interest a cop wannabe and it's silly.

JMHO

Wynn:yo:

[jocko]

Bob R:Only other motorcycle I'd consider riding or owning is an Indian


O wouldhope your talking about maybe the original Indian. The Indian today is on its 3 maker in california and sells for over 30K basic and certainly the only thing Indian is still the name.

they are not going to make it as the excelsior a few years back tried to do it and took stockholders for millions. I don't wish Indian any bad luck but when you make a bike that has a base starting price of 30K, u eliminated 90%of the buyers and with no "real" dealer network, where u gonna go for service??? I know Polaris riders who have to ride ver 200 miles to get any service. They are struggling with the victory brand, with less than 6000 units sold a year, it would make it very hard to keep ones doors open with they didn't have the ATV, snowmobiles doing all the real sales, and victory is 11 years old, Just this year they celebrated their 50,000 motorcycle sale over 10 YEARS. U do the math.

Being an Italian myself and a Valentino Rossi fan for the past years when he road for yamaha, I would sure love to see him shine on the Ducati this year. I have watched all 3 of the Indy Moto GP races and he is awesome to see on a bike. Stoner and Hayden couldn't run with the yamaha's or honda with Ducati, so Rossi will have a long way to go IMO. I think Stoner left ducati for 2011 and is riding for Honda.. Money talkes, people walk. With 7 world championships, I sometime wonder what the drive behind him is. course was paid 35 million to race for yamaha, so not sure ducati could have come up with that kind of money to lure him over to them, as they are not in the same league as yamaha, or honda from the dollar standpoing. Not to many years back ducati was on the sales block..

one outta come to Indy in august to see the Moto GP boys run. super track, u can sit anywhere u want 70,000 which is a big big crowd at most GP races, hardly fills one set of bleachers at Indy..

[jocko]

I can balance on a stationary tricycle...does that count?

kinda. harley now makes a stationary trike for you now. :D

[BobR]

HI Jocko,

No, the only Indian I would consider is an original, not the ill-fated modern ressurection of the brand. I thought they had gone out of business already.