I wonder

[jocko]

what Ruger is going to put on their webb site at 2 p.m tomorrow as the gun you just gotta have.

My bet is one of two.

#1. kahr will have some serious competition with a single stack ultra light 9mm at a much lower price than kahrs,,,, or or
#2 ruger will join the mass of other gun makes who thinks they just have to introduce ANOTHER foking 1911.

anyone taking bets. watch the ruger webgb site tomorrow after 2 p.m .:behindsofa:

[DasFriek]

For some reason Ruger never makes anything that interests me much anymore, But i have owned more than a few in the past.

My guess would be a polymer Judge style gun, Or even a LCR in .22lr

[cgo99]

I was thinking the same thing Jocko, but I think is going to be either a 1911 or one of those pistol carbine conversions that are starting to pop up this days.
Either way I'm curious; Ruger has some very good stuff.
God knows I was in love with my first gun a Ruger 10/22, hell I just realized that I may still have feelings for it :D.

[cgo99]

what Ruger is going to put on their webb site at 2 p.m tomorrow as the gun you just gotta have.

My bet is one of two.

#1. kahr will have some serious competition with a single stack ultra light 9mm at a much lower price than kahrs,,,, or or
#2 ruger will join the mass of other gun makes who thinks they just have to introduce ANOTHER foking 1911.

anyone taking bets. watch the ruger webgb site tomorrow after 2 p.m .:behindsofa:

Now that i think about it you maybe right and is a 9mm LCP, I guess we'll know soon enough.

[Bawanna]

I've always liked the blackhawks and super blackhawks, like the MkII's. Never cared for the Redhawks or any of the autos. Many love them, just to clunky for me. I have one of the old 44mag Internationals like the 10/22 with the full length stock in 44 mag. Resting comfortably in the box. I run my 10/22 from time to time.
I'd like to have a Bearcat some day just cause they are a cute little gun.
I still have a Mini 14 I rarely play with but still like it.
This being the 100th anniversary of the 1911 they could just be coming out with one but at the same time I'm thinking not. The 1911 market is gonna be flooded with annversary models and if Ruger was gonna make one, I think the cat would have got out of the sack by now.
Guess we'll know soon huh?

[MikeyKahr]

My guesses:

1) a left-handed 10/22
2) a snub-nose 1" barrel LCR in 45...make that 50.

In all seriousness, my money would be on a 1911. I know everyone thinks the market's already full of 1911 choices but Ruger hasn't put one out yet that I know of anyway. With the market as it is I didn't think they would put out an AR either, but they did - so why not go for a 1911 on the anniversary year add a few extra pages to their already voluminous catalog?

P.S. I think the news has been delayed a few days. I think the Ruger announcement was supposed to happen on 1/1?


what Ruger is going to put on their webb site at 2 p.m tomorrow as the gun you just gotta have.

My bet is one of two.

#1. kahr will have some serious competition with a single stack ultra light 9mm at a much lower price than kahrs,,,, or or
#2 ruger will join the mass of other gun makes who thinks they just have to introduce ANOTHER foking 1911.

anyone taking bets. watch the ruger webgb site tomorrow after 2 p.m .:behindsofa:

[wyntrout]

How about an SS Mini-45... .45 ACP. I would buy a quality carbine like that... a great home defense or bush gun.

Wynn:)

[mr surveyor]

Personally, I love the Ruger revolvers, M77 rifles and the .22 cal pistols. In my opinion they went downhill when they tried to compete in the tupperware market.... but I have the same opinion of S&W when it comes to tupperware. Ruger really sent me into a spin when they absolutely plagerized George Kelgren's P3AT to make the Little Copy Pistol. They lost a lot of respect over that, but since they have plenty of advertising money, the gun rags and tv promotional shooting shows have tended to wash the truth away making it appear that the LCP was a complete invention of Ruger.

If they are seriously planning to build a compact tupperware 9mm, then they will have to compete with all those currently building them, as well as the new Sig P290 to be released soon. Unless of course they decided to steal KelTec's PF9 design:32:

My bet, on the safe side, is they are trying to be the first "major" to release a comemerative 1911....if they can find someone in Brazil to cast the frames for them.


surv


(how many "m's" in commmemmerative?)

[dusty10]

didn't they just introduce the sr40? I would say then they will have a compact version of that as they did with the sr9 and sr9c.

[MikeyKahr]

didn't they just introduce the sr40? I would say then they will have a compact version of that as they did with the sr9 and sr9c.

Hey dusty. I could see sr40c being next...but is that really "the next firearm that you absolutely must own"? I don't see it with all the build-up. And I doubt a single-stack 9 being advertised as such, as they already have other single-stack autos. Or could this just be another example of bad PR?

[dusty10]

Hey dusty. I could see sr40c being next...but is that really "the next firearm that you absolutely must own"? I don't see it with all the build-up. And I doubt a single-stack 9 being advertised as such, as they already have a other single-stacks. Or could this just be another example of bad PR?

LOL, they said the same thing about the sr40. I still don't have one and it's not on my short list either. I'd like to see them clone a Marlin 39A lever .22. I might have to get one of those if it was cheaper than the Marlin and built almost as good. :D

[jscottbaird]

Got $20 that says its a 1911... Oooooh just what the market needs!!! :-P

[MikeyKahr]

LOL, they said the same thing about the sr40. I still don't have one and it's not on my short list either. I'd like to see them clone a Marlin 39A lever .22. I might have to get one of those if it was cheaper than the Marlin and built almost as good. :D

A better-built cheaper clone of the Marlin would be nice. Or how about something like a combo .22LR/12 gauge? One that folds into a compact single-stack 9? :rolleyes:

[jeepster09]

How about an SS Mini-45... .45 ACP. I would buy a quality carbine like that... a great home defense or bush gun.

Wynn:)

Now that would be a hitt! I would buy one also.

[dusty10]

A better-built cheaper clone of the Marlin would be nice. Or how about something like a combo .22LR/12 gauge? One that folds into a compact single-stack 9? :rolleyes:

LOL, you an engineer by any chance? I'd like to see that design.

[MikeyKahr]

LOL, you an engineer by any chance? I'd like to see that design.

I am not an engineer. But I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express. :yo: (watching Jocko go :32:)

[dusty10]

This Holiday Inn story is becoming a legend. I wish I knew the particulars. :D

[Tilos]

Nothing they make/made has interested me since I drifted from revolvers and became addicted to range mushrooms.
Not until the SR9 came out and it's on my short list of slab sided, brass chucking, scrap-o-matics.

cgo99:
You never forget your first, um, ...gun.
js
Tilos

[Bawanna]

This Holiday Inn story is becoming a legend. I wish I knew the particulars. :D

Ditto that, everyone chuckles like they all know whats going on. I'm clueless. Makes me feel just a little DUMB.
Almost as bad as some of these initials people use for words sometime. Srsly was a real nightmare to figure out for me.

[TD2K]

Srsly was a real nightmare to figure out for me.

O'RLY?

:o:o:o

[Bawanna]

Yup it was you little lady that put me on the front porch of the asylum, trying to get in, not trying to get out!

You be nice to me, I gotta surprise brewing for you thats gonna make you cry crocodile tears and make you smack yo momma. (you thunk that one up too I think) Not even Dietrich can top this one. I srsly want to tell ya about it but ain't gonna happen, you can bamboo the fingernails, waterboard me, do as you will but my lips are sealed.

I gotta do a little research. bye.

[TD2K]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! I lub me some s'prises!!!!!!!!

[mr surveyor]

hhhmmmm.... 10 to 1 odds this will be a better surprise than what ever Ruger is cookin' up:)

[Dietrich]

hhhmmmm.... 10 to 1 odds this will be a better surprise than what ever Ruger is cookin' up:)
I`ll bet it`s a picture of Bawanna nekkid, in front of a Holiday Inn.[I ain`t got a clue about the Holiday Inn story either.]

[johnh]

Hmmm....perhaps the .308 caliber semi-auto they were supposedly making years ago and gave up? I seem to recall some prototypes were even displayed.

SR45? Might make sales drop on the 345 though. My money is on this one, or a 1911 just because everyone has them.

John

[cgo99]

cgo99:
You never forget your first, um, ...gun.
js
Tilos
You sure don't.

[SpringerFan]

My vote is for a slim frame 9mm, something to compete in the CW9 market. It did not stop me from buying a CW9.:)

[jocko]

DIETRICH:I`ll bet it`s a picture of Bawanna nekkid, in front of a Holiday Inn.[I ain`t got a clue about the Holiday Inn story either.]
__________________


FOR THE FIRST TIME i truly hope u are dead wrong, wouldn't that be a sight for sore eyes????

[cgo99]

DIETRICH:I`ll bet it`s a picture of Bawanna nekkid, in front of a Holiday Inn.[I ain`t got a clue about the Holiday Inn story either.]
__________________


FOR THE FIRST TIME i truly hope u are dead wrong, wouldn't that be a sight for sore eyes????
I can almost hear the Holiday Inn stocks crashing down in the market thanks to that image.

[Bawanna]

I seriously doubt Hallmark will be pounding down the doors wanting to make a greeting card out of it, thats for sure.

Now maybe outside a penitentary fence with the razor wire on top and Dietrich, not me. Now that might be a Hallmark moment.

[gb6491]

Here's something that has being popping up on various forums/blogs:
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=as8kgedab&v=001QYDB14zrJ4_6HSSmGIJGLEeavkpfGsCJzzD1wx66PEvPP IpmyVHr6Ko6k9RULn2twPlsSPHF3MbwHJXkKUwez5bN9MMZcG9 TdnmYfiJTPR3EUEvHQ8iiqQ%3D%3D
Regards,
Greg

[cgo99]

Jocko called it, we have now the new LC9. Time will tell if it really is a must have.

[cgo99]

Catalog Number: LC9 | Model Number: 3200 | Caliber: 9mm Luger
Slide Material: Through-Hardened Alloy Steel Slide Finish: Blued
Barrel Material: Alloy Steel Barrel Finish: Blued
Barrel Length: 3.12" Length: 6.00"
Width: 0.90" Height: 4.50"
Weight: 17.10 oz. Sights: Adjustable 3-Dot
Capacity: 7+1 Grip Frame: Black, High Performance, Glass-Filled Nylon
Twist: 1:10" RH Grooves: 6
MA Approved & Certified: No CA Approved: No
Suggested Retail: $443.00

Not a bad MSRP, should retail for a bit less than that.
Two questions:
1. What's with the gap in the back, does this thing has a hammer?
2. Is that a thumb safety that I see?

[jocko]

I would sa yit definitely has a hammer and probably a hammer let down, I would think it would have to have a safety to be ma. complaint.

Looks very nice, almost same size as PM9, Wish it could have been a stainless slide instead of blue. It also could just be a DAO only gun, so no hammer let down needed.

[Bawanna]

Well it's not CA approved so I'm sure MA won't like it either yet.

It is DAO allegedly but I do see a lever on the back there so not sure what it's function might be. It does look like theres a hammer gonna pop out of that notch in the back, I'm ok with hammers.

I apparently didn't fall into their marketing parameters as I'm not in any rush to go out and check one out. Could be a good thing for someone looking, guess time will tell.

Course I'm just a skin model for the Holiday Inn so what do I know.

[gb6491]

Hmm...
Just about the size of the CW9/P9.
Probably the same trigger as the LCP (like the KT P3AT/PF9).
That LCI looks just as bad (IMO) as the one on the MA compliant PM9 and Ruger's "SR" series pistols.
I like Ruger products, but I'll pass on this one.
Regards,
Geg

[PaiN]

I feel bad for the other sub-compact 9mm's incl. the PM9 and especially the Sig P290....With the PC9's low retail price and Ruger's quality reputation, barring any major fuctional issues, this little LC9 is going to take the market by storm....
Who's going to want a Taurus with this Ruger at about the same price? Who would want to pay hundreds more dollars for the Kahr or Sig.
Hell, I might have to get one :)

[TD2K]

Life. Changing. ;)

[TD2K]

Who's going to want a Taurus with this Ruger at about the same price? Who would want to pay hundreds more dollars for the Kahr or Sig.


*raises hand*

I paid a lot more for my Kahr P380 than had I bought a LCP.

Just sayin

[jocko]

Here is what I can see from the photo: With a mganifying glass. This gun is definitely a DAO, built almost exactly like the LCP 380 kthat Ruger makews, which is a nice gun by the way. Why do I know this is a DAO and not a striker fired gun. Well the back gives it away to. That gap would not be there is there wa sno hammer invlved and more than anything if one will look on the right side just left of the serial numbers in the cut out portion of theframe, you will see a small hole. That is exactly what the lcp380 has also and that is there for one to reset the firing pin block, if they have to take the alloy frame off the gun. It is a total bugger to reset that firing pin block without that little hole in that side. I could explain how to use that little hole but I won't take up alot of space. It has a slide lock lever and it has a flip up safety on the far left back side. The grip is a clone to the lcp 380. The frame willbe definitely an alloy frame similar in all aspect tothe lcp 380, which now is tried and proven. The upper slide internals will follow the same path of the lcp 380 also, having a titanium firing pin. The trigger system willbe long also very similar to kahrs only nothing close in smoothness. The lcp 380 has a long and sloppy trigger in it, but it works Ok. This gun does have nice sights on it and they are dovetailed.

IMO they should have offered this gun in a stainless finish instead of blued. Thatfinish will defnitely show wear and fast and will require maintenance.

The ruger 9 is 6" long, the kahr PM9 is 5.3" long, The ruger 9 weighs 17.1 ounces , the PM9 weight 14 ounces, . lets face it 3 ounces is 3 ounces, callit heavier, or a tad heavier or the kahr PM9 lighter or a tad lighter. .7 of an inch in lenght is a plus for kahr PM9 also but again the ruger 9 willbe pocketable. Price point is excellent, probably no problem finding this gun for uncer $400.

I would have thought that Ruger would have offered this gun in a striker fired system but it is far more expensive to do so and ruger has cut their teeth with hammer fired guns, so I guess it makes sense that they stayed with that system.

You know guys, stop and think about this, small ass 9's are coming out left and right and yet no one has come close to the PM9 in size and weight and design and certanly in quality either.. nadda, zero,. Sometimes I thing we fail to give kahr credit for making such a small as simple made gun and then we question why it is more money. There isjust more gun.
Now if you truly want a anice gun for the bucks this Ruger 9 willfill that bill. It willcut into kahrs sales IMO but it will certainly cut into the sales of the kel tec PF9 for sure, apples and oranges in thost wo guns but the price points are very close. I wouldnot be surprised to see the same cheap ass plastic trigger on the ruger as their lcp 380 also. might be OK to but never the leass cheap po..

So jocko rates this gun as a 7 out of 10.

Course if kahr keeps making their PM9 longer and heavier with this new slide crapola, who knows.

Ruger had a total recall of over 50,000 of the lcp 380 to get things right and safe witht he gun, so I think they have learned alot from that recall and the mods changes to, so my bet this gun internally is almost the same in design, just bigger in design...

[wyntrout]

Ho hum. A semi-auto .308 would have been nice... or the SS Mini-45. :(
Oh, well.... 30-round .17 semi-auto pistol??

Holiday Inn... hmmm... 1985... May or June... Gibralter... the Pru-Rock. I like Super-8 Motels. :)

Wynn :D

[jocko]

I feel bad for the other sub-compact 9mm's incl. the PM9 and especially the Sig P290....With the PC9's low retail price and Ruger's quality reputation, barring any major fuctional issues, this little LC9 is going to take the market by storm....
Who's going to want a Taurus with this Ruger at about the same price? Who would want to pay hundreds more dollars for the Kahr or Sig.
Hell, I might have to get one :)

kinda have to disagree here . lets take the $400 cw9 that can be bought most places in and around that price.

cw9 5.9" in length. Ruger 6" in length
cw9 and ruger 9 both 4.5" HIGHT
CW9 WEIGHTS 15.9 OUNCES, RUGER 17.1
CW9 stainles teel slide, ruger blued steel
cw9 striker fired, ruger hammer fired
cw9 loooooong but the smooth trigger system and no safety's. Ruger loooong but not as smooth trigger system and safety.

now I am not knocking the Ruger here my friend, it will sell becuase it says ruger but lets not kid ourselves the lcp 380 was a total diseaster for ruger first step into the sub compace world, as was also their SR9 which had a total recall also.... What they did was totally copy a pi-s poor safety designed kel tec 380 which Ruger ended up recalling 50K of them.
BOTH guns 7+1. Another reason why I think this gun followed the exact steps of their now reliable lcp 380.

Price points of the ruger 9 and rthe kahr cw9 will be exactly the same, sittingin a gun case side by side, I do think one will be able to SEE the difference to.

I do hope they didn't have to print all that butt ugly wording all over the sldie to be Ma complaint, like the Ma complaint PM9 kahr is.

There is a reason it is a $400 gun and that it is a $400 gun, that will do the job if needed.

I own an lcp and a P380, both at first gave issues. Paid half again as much for my P380 as the lcp,but IMO I got twice the gun to. I hope this is not one of those introductions where we won't see it on dealer shelves for 6 to 12 months. Ruger for certain stands behinds thier guns as good as any company out there to. I do hope this is one introduction that will be trouble free and theat they have learned alot from their remodified lcp 380.

My son shoots my ruger lcp 380 and I can shoot circles around him with my P380 kahr. To me there is no comparision in accruacy of the two. I for the life of me cannot shot the lcp 380 at all worth a dam, I never could the kel tecs either. Why did I but the lcp 380 ruger, well it was a Ruger and I like many will think they just have to have one..I do like the magazine flush fit design over my PM9,just to me looks sleekter..

[recoilguy]

The KT diehards(crybabies) will call it a copy again and work very hard to find every fault possible. Taraus is going to be hurt by this gun because Ruger is a good gun and their CS is stellar!!!!!! Kahr fols will still buy Kahrs.

I like the look and I would very much like to shoot it, especially side by side with my CW9 It is almost identical size to the CW and will be found for a bit less money. If the trigger is comparable to the LCP there will be the problem, if not it will be interesting!

I like the looks and I will shoot one as soon as I can. If Ruger truly did learn from the LCP and can keep this gun off recall........it will be a very big success in my humble opinion.

RCG

[jocko]

recoil guy, have to agree, for after all it is a ruger, so if it ain't good out of the box, u can rest assured Ruger will make it good. I see it cutting into tarurs and kt's big time and oh yes the kt fanboi's will hammer this 9 as a over size clone to the kt pf9

[jocko]

Along with the external thumb safety, the Ruger "features" an internal magazine disconnect . . . always very popular with the self defense guys . . . NOT! :D

I have acquaintances who were staunch Kel-Tec P-3AT and LCP fans who have moved to the Kahr P380, usually after buying a Kahr 9mm and enjoying the trigger. I believe the superior Kahr design, especially the trigger will carry the day.

I would think with a magazine disconnet then it would pass california rules with ease. I never seen that. Many hate the disconnet but as you well know if it is a aprt that goes in the gun, then it is a par that can also come OUT OF THE GUN. I had my Smith M & P disconnet taken out, not sure why either, just read so mucyh discontent over this disconnet thing that I wanted to be ONE OF TE BOYS. I don't think the mag disconnet give sone issue either. ceertanly as a home aloen gun with kids, not a bad thing to have for a feature either.. one in thepipe that cannot fire and then just sove in a laoded magazine and fire away. sure sves hand jacking the slide etc and maybe causing an issue doing that. Pros an cons to everything..

From selling guns for over 40 years, most people liked the idea of an external safety, percentages is what gun companies strive to sell to also..

[BroncoAZ]

Judging from the retail to street price of the LCP, I'm thinking the actual street price of the LC9 will be $359 after they've been out a few months. Looking at this LC9 as direct competition to the CW9 is stretching it, the CW9 will be sitting in the next case over for $439. The Taurus slim 9 and the PF9 will be in the case with this one. It won't be long and they will have a hard chrome version.

For those focusing on the LCP recall, my first LCP was around #5000, and worked great both before and after the recall. My mistake was selling it to buy a hard chromed one later, the HC one wouldn't feed the same Gold Dot rounds that my first one did.

[jocko]

bronco az;For those focusing on the LCP recall, my first LCP was around #5000, and worked great both before and after the recall. My mistake was selling it to buy a hard chromed one later, the HC one wouldn't feed the same Gold Dot rounds that my first one did

wasn't that they didn't work, it was because they failed the drop safety testing . they had to redsgin the firing pin block and they added a titanium firing pin and a stronger fring pin spring. great gun today. Mine unfortunalty had quality issues and ruger replaced the barrel and then did the upgrade all at the same time. I feel there is definitely a price differenc ein the kahr line to the ruger also. Stainless slide for one thing make sit more costly, striker fired make sit more costly..

[Dietrich]

A nice looking handgun to say the least.However,I wouldn`t take a pretty for my PM9 and if I were in the market for a small 9,I would still choose the PM9 over the Ruger.I have learned that if I want something,settling for something else because it`s cheaper doesn`t work for me.Don`t get me wrong,I own a Ruger and I dearly love it but I`m married to my Kahr for concealed carry.

[jocko]

A nice looking handgun to say the least.However,I wouldn`t take a pretty for my PM9 and if I were in the market for a small 9,I would still choose the PM9 over the Ruger.I have learned that if I want something,settling for something else because it`s cheaper doesn`t work for me.Don`t get me wrong,I own a Ruger and I dearly love it but I`m married to my Kahr for concealed carry.

dead right, no doubt that ruger will go bang when needed and probably every time to. There is certainly an over all quality different in the ruger vs the kahrs. Stainless IMO trumps blued steel any day of the week. IMO striker fired trumps hammer fired any day of the week. I would be totally surprised to see the lc9 with as smooth a trigger system as the kahr line, just IMO not gonna happen, but again it is not a target gun but a close up personal gun that will save ones life.

Personaly I like the safety, I can also live witht he magazine disconnect to, no big deal to me at all and like I stated earlier, when parts go in, then parts can come back out. Most all of this safety stuff is geared to be aproved in all 50 states, this is what Ruger is going after. yes more parts in a gun like a safet, slide lock lever, magazine disconnect can give issues over any gun without them. duh??? But safety's have been on guns for years, when John browning made the first 1911 the military said nice gun, now put a safety on it and check back with us. 1911'as today have safety's on them. People do adjust.
Liability also plays a very very very big part in any guns design. those things are not on these guns because Ruger or any gun company wants them there. Probalby lawyers right now looking over this lc9 to see where they might have a case ..
Now that being said, I love my kahrs because they are just so damn simple made, nothing to finger fokk up either. no chance of hitting a safety on my PM9 or K9 or P380. just not there. Trigger system that I would defy ruger to even get close to.

I personaly don't feel Ruger design was to include hammering kahr sales as much as hammering taurus, and kel tec and the kel tec clone made about a block away from the kel tec factory. No doubt it will cut into kahr sales, as the price point is going to be good. I do think the cw series will be right there within 50-75 bucks more but look what you get for that extra money to.

So not to hammer the ruger, I expected it a few years back, just takes time for all to evolve. There will be more 9 subs coming out but they all seem to be 3 to 6 ounces heavier than the kahr PM series and for that matter the cw9 even. I am not sur e ow stainless weighs compared to ruger steel size for size. Humm I wonder if it can be magna ported????

I won't go looking for one but I will surely look at one when ever I see one. I bet for awhile the price will be $400 and above. It will be a hot seller and ruger claims shipping starting in february is a big big score to. get um while their hot..

[mr surveyor]

you can have my share of the ruger tupperware.

and, I believe the reason they couldn't pass the drop test with the original lcp was that they tried to cheap out and left out the KT P3AT hammer block and lightweight firing pin from the design they "borrowed".

I am surprised, just a little bit, that they didn't come out with their own 1911 or 2011 version of JMB's masterpiece. Considering they are one of the very best all steel firearms makers in the US, they would have regained a bit more of my respect back.... but I'd doubt their management team cares much for my input anyway;)


surv

oh, it makes me want a PM9 even more now:)

[O'Dell]

I also don't see this pistol as a competitor to the PM9. The PM is smaller and lighter. It does seem to compete with the CW9 however, and I expect that a hard chrome slide will follow soon. Of the two, since I owned a CW before it was stolen, I would pay the extra bucks for the Kahr. The longer barrel, striker system and trigger would seal the deal. I do like the thumb safety on the Ruger. For the time being though, I will just carry my LCP, and let the bad guy get a couple of feet closer.

However, if I was Taurus, I would be worried. Not only does the pistol seem more appealing, Ruger has excellent CS, and Taurus has :eek:.

[jocko]

you can have my share of the ruger tupperware.

and, I believe the reason they couldn't pass the drop test with the original lcp was that they tried to cheap out and left out the KT P3AT hammer block and lightweight firing pin from the design they "borrowed".

I am surprised, just a little bit, that they didn't come out with their own 1911 or 2011 version of JMB's masterpiece. Considering they are one of the very best all steel firearms makers in the US, they would have regained a bit more of my respect back.... but I'd doubt their management team cares much for my input anyway;)


surv

oh, it makes me want a PM9 even more now:)

probably over 70% of the kts out there today don't have the firing pin block in them. Kt just sneaked that feature in after they incurred drop safety issues INSTEAD of having a recall on the guns that was out there. Unlike the auto industry where NTSB has to authority ti mandate a recall, the Gun industry is exempt for this stuff. It is up to the integrity of the gun company to take care of this. Kt, when guns were sent back for an issue, they then replaced with a drop safe firing pin block. They never changed to a titanium firing pin like Ruger did to even ensure more drop safety. KT should have had a recall or at least advertised that if you have a gun prior to a certain serial number to sent it back and they would upgrade it at no cost. they choose to let the buyer beware and there are hundres of thousands of kts out there that are not drop safe..

Ruger did this with the lcp and then stamped a mark on the back of the allow frame to show it was upgraded. Coruse to me that is why Ruger is what it is to. A very stand up company...I think they were smart in not coming out with ANOTHER 1911, to many now but certainly not alot of sub compact 9 like the lc9. They willgrap market shre real quick IMO. they have the production facilities to pump out like ping pong balls..

[PaiN]

IF the LC9 proves reliable once out in the wild(no reason to believe they won't be) then its only competition will be the CW9. Then it comes down to feel...yea, and don't discount the "coolness, newness factor :cool:" the LC9 will have.
That said....finding a sweet black K9 for $399 takes care of the CCW business for me. No looking back or buying anything else for carry duty.

[dusty10]

When I first saw the email from ruger hawking the LC9 I laughed out loud because they couldn't make it as small and light as the PM9. All dimensions of the new ruger except width make it the same size as a PM45. All things being equal, I'd rather carry the .45. Also, blackened stainless beats blued steel anytime. :D Please don't misunderstand this post. I have several Ruger firearms so this is not meant as a bash against Ruger but rather a statement that they have not eroded my Kahr habit with the production of this new gun. Not in the least.

[jscottbaird]

If someone wants me to compare the CW or PM9, you can send a 12 pack to Laconia, otherwise it isn't happening... I could do way more math and make a ratio of size, vs. felt recoil and muzzle flip vs. muzzle energy and payload per magazine on target vs. retail price and come up with corresponding math to support it... but there isn't enough beer left here to make it interesting to me anymore! LOL... Read it an weep Ruger...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_cakTqAwG044/TSJ1LnKq6NI/AAAAAAAAAJc/saYhREjbqmk/s800/cw45vslc9.jpg

Cheers,
Scott

[recoilguy]

That is an excellent comparison. Very fine work!

RCG

[MikeyKahr]

what Ruger is going to put on their webb site at 2 p.m tomorrow as the gun you just gotta have.

My bet is one of two.

#1. kahr will have some serious competition with a single stack ultra light 9mm at a much lower price than kahrs,,,, or or


Good call on choice #1, jocko. Kudos to you my friend. I'm surprised it wasn't a 1911 but I guess not too surprised, thinking about it. Why not upsize the LCP and try to get a chunk of the 9mm market? Must have seen some of the same analysis that Sig saw to pump out the 290.

[jscottbaird]

That is an excellent comparison. Very fine work!

RCG

Thank you RCG!

Regards,
Scott

[PaiN]

Here's a vid of the LC9 in action and a little talk up on it.

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/first-look-at-the-ruger-lc9-video/7990/

[jscottbaird]

Thanks for the link Pain... please note the first thing out of Michael Band's mouth was noting that it kicks hard... That is exactly the reason I made the comparison image with the CW series gun.... More grip and lower bore axis in the same sized package makes for a superior fighting handgun.... it is my best guess that the muzzle flip and percieved recoil impulse will be about the same with the. 45 Kahr in a P or CW frame... The math supports it...

[jocko]

One could see the recoil of that little gun. ergo wise it is not in the league of the kahr line, still a nice gun, one that probably most will shoot seldom and carry often.

[recoilguy]

It would be very interesting to see how he likes it in pocket carry. It was good to see it shooting. I would not trade my CW or my PM for it but I think I like it.

RCG

[jocko]

I like it to. but being I feel I have the best of the pocket guns, I will continue to like it but probably never own one.

[gb6491]

Thanks for the video link PaiN.
I found it interesting that Mr. Bane was able to chamber a round rather easily using the slingshot method.
Regards,
Greg

[jocko]

did you also notice his cupped hand over the slide and not the two finger stuff that so many try to use. He did it properly..IMO>

[gb6491]

did you also notice his cupped hand over the slide and not the two finger stuff that so many try to use. He did it properly..IMO>
Yes, I noticed that and it was a pretty effortless operation. I can do it in like manner with my CW45, but my CW9 is less tolerant in regards to execution of the technique (requires a much more forceful/speedy manipulation). I'm not wanting to stir up a "that's not how it says to do it in the manual" debate here; just making an observation in regards to the LC9. I do wish my 9 was as tolerant of technique as my 45 is.
Regards,
Greg

[mr surveyor]

Jocko

just to set the record straight.... Kelgren designed the hammerblock safety for the P32, and it was later made an integral part of the original P3AT design. If you are remembering something coming along during the early days of the Second Generation P3AT, it was probably a re-design of the hammerblock to reduce the possibility of short striking the trigger causing the user to have to rack the slide to re-set the trigger. Even then, the hammer block safety would prevent an AD. some users that were accustomed to Glock triggers wouldn't let the trigger completely re-set between rounds and the trigger would go limp until the slide was manually racked.

My opinion is that Ruger just didn't copy the hammer block safety as well as they copied the rest of the P3AT. Kel-Tec had no reason for a "safety recall".


surv

[wyntrout]

I use that grip when I have a misfire or something so that I don't get hit by the slide in case of a hangfire... or delayed discharge. I did that a lot when I was having empty chambers when the bullet dived on the second or third round from a magazine. I would start to use my thumb and finger, which was awkward anyhow, and then try to smoothly pull the slide back half an inch or so to reset the striker with my hand cupping the slide from above. I finally started checking that a round had been stripped from the magazine or was visible as I pulled the slide back. It gets tiring to keep dry firing because there's no round chambered.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

[QUOTE=mr surveyor;47412]Jocko

just to set the record straight.... Kelgren designed the hammerblock safety for the P32, and it was later made an integral part of the original P3AT design. If you are remembering something coming along during the early days of the Second Generation P3AT, it was probably a re-design of the hammerblock to reduce the possibility of short striking the trigger causing the user to have to rack the slide to re-set the trigger. Even then, the hammer block safety would prevent an AD. some users that were accustomed to Glock triggers wouldn't let the trigger completely re-set between rounds and the trigger would go limp until the slide was manually racked.

My opinion is that Ruger just didn't copy the hammer block safety as well as they copied the rest of the P3AT. Kel-Tec had no reason for a "safety recall".

won't argue that point with you as I know you were once a poster on the ktog forum and my sources had told me otherwise back then. but it is a mute point IMO for he did make a change to the hammer block and called it a short striker mod, which was never an issue with kt's people who knew guns. Again, u might be right, but I don't want to argue it with you as I don't want those kt fanboi's tramping over here hammering me and messing up what is the best fourm around. I guess we can all have our opinions and I will stick with mine for what it is worth.

thanks for the comment. I am sure u also know that gun companies are exempt from any government mandatory recalls, unlike the auto copmanies. It is a moral issue only and I guess it is also a liability issue for Remngotn 700 can attest to that..

[recoilguy]

my take is very similar to jockos and i have done some looking into this

This is what i think sums it up

The evolution of firearms is similar in ways obvious to me, to the evolution of life. There are certain effective traits that show up repeatedly in convergent evolution, using the parts and structures available. Occasionally, a new trait is developed, but overall, form and function dictate change and design. Simple really

I have looked at the Kel-tec and LCP drawings, and though they are similar, there are improvements made to the Ruger that give it new traits within the overall structure of the firearm design. There are!!!!!No matter what one may wish to believe. In my opinion, the design is an improvement on the Kel-tec. It is also a better-made firearm; of higher quality. That has been the remark of every reviewer and would be very hard to rationally dispute.

Thus, calling the LCP a "copy" of the Kel-tec is simplistic, and does not take into account the obvious differences in the two firearms, in relation to the general structure of that genre. It amounts to no more then petty name calling and blatant brand bias

Ruger has always striven to produce the highest-quality firearms. It has been successful many times and has had some well publicized and perpetuated problems. The LCP was back-ordered all over the USA. One could find Kel-tec's in abundance in almost any gun shop. That in itself says something to the quality and design of the weapon. I specifically would not want the Kel-tec, after examining one, contrary to popular opinion, looks are not the main consideration. Well, that's evolution for you.

The LCP may have a "KT style hammer block, but exploded drawings will show you that the two have enough differences to be two, distinct "species". It is very easy to say copy and to point to problems, it is very difficult to do it with credibility when it is only followed by name calling and cute acronyms rather then facts.

Personally I am not as impressed with Kel-Tecs as others may or may not be. But I do acknowledge the quality, niche, and popularity of the manufacturers. There is no reason not to purchase either if one is so inclined. There is at the same time no reason to hold it against anyone or to chastises them if they choose any other weapon. It is more important that someone joins the ranks of gun owners and shooters and possibly the NRA then that they join a “club” of a specific brand owner. Gun owners in America need to unite.

I see many people on these forums who are all too willing to cry copy, for reasons unknown. I believe that such tendentious statements limit the value of information on that forum. Many nswbees come to these forums seeking credible advice about firearms. When they read someone ranting against a manufacturer they must come away with doubts that are really not justified. That can only work to the pejorative of the purpose of the forum.


RCG

[Bawanna]

Very well said RCG, very well indeed.

All guns have similarties, you could make comparisons to just about any of them, you can only change so much.
I'm sure theres tons of corporate attorney's dedicating every waking moment to stirring this stuff up, so no need for us to whine or critique.
I prefer to just enjoy what I like, leave in the case that which I don't and move on.

[cgo99]

Nicely done recoilguy, great argument.

[jocko]

recoil guy, glad you said that stuff, IMO Ruger did copy the kt, that is also why they had to recall over 50K of them due to poor design on KT's Part. Ruger basically copied the kt, 90% of the parts for sure.There certainly was a quality difference with Ruger over KT to.

Now that being said the LC9 is certainly no copy for all the reasons I stated, because it has the looks of the lcp which the kt fanbois claim is a copy is just natural that they say the lc9 is a copy. It is so far from a copy that it isn't even funny, but your not gonna change those guys opinions either, as they know full and well that Ruger buried kt with the 380 sales and they will certainly bury the PF9 with the lc9 sales. There is no comparison in the quality of the guns at all. You have had them both, u know, ur not shootin in the wind like some people might be. I can also base my opinions on owning 3 Kt.s and having to send them back 17 times. Some guys swear by kt's most I think swear art them. I always felt that George Kelgren was a genius but kt's quality literally sucked and that is now what people think of them today yet. Now their quality surely has gotten beter, I do not know that but the damage is done, the cow is out of the barn and it is so hard to regain a reputation, once you tainted it.

Certainly the lc9 is not a copy by any means, course it does have a barrel and a trigger like the kt's do.

Am I nuts over the lc9 NO, is it a nice gun. probably so, It has all the safety features that today gun makers probably have to put on even to get by these fokkng state regs. Some I could do without but again 90% of new buyers will care less and I can say from being in business selling guns for 40 years that most all will like the manual safety.

Kahr is one of the few that has no safety other than keeping your finger in your nose and off the trigger. Even glock has what I call a weak ass safety that requires you to also keep your finger in your nose.

If one thinks back 30+ years when the G17 came out it probably then was one of the first semi's that had no real external safety. To me a kahr is not for everyone due to only the trigger being the safety mechanism. People are careless, we all know that, and as much as I hate those butt ugly cocking indicator, what kahrs advertises other than that new MA complaint model with a pop up Loaded chamber indicator. their extractor thing leaves alot to be desired as a real LRI. And it was evident that the state of MA and komifornia was not going to accept the extractor thing as a LRI on the kahrs..

This Ruger copy thing will settle down in awhile, once those flamed get it off their chests. People are going to buy it or they will not. I will not buy it due to not needing another pocket gun, but if I was going to buy my son a farily small compace 9, I would think real serious about the lc9 due to the manual safety. My son is about 1/50th savvy about guns as I am, so for me and for him it wold be a good conscious thing for me to buy for him. He has my g19 whcih I gave him and I before that even had the siderlock (siderlock.com) installed in his G19. IMO a super safety system and where it should be to. Some can handle guns without a safety, in my case I would have never forgiven myself had he harmed himself or someone due to my not wanting to present him with a safe gun. Just my opinion.

[JustinN]

I've never understood the big deal of many of the polymer semi-autos not having a safety. While the trigger is mostly lighter (NY trigger in a glock isn't) double action revolvers don't have safeties and have been around a lot longer and carried a ton before the glock style "safety-less" pistol.

Just my opinion. Gets frustrating as anyone who follows common sense rules knows not to put fingers on the trigger until they want to fire (but many many many people fail at this simple safety idea). If the safety lever is what keeps you from ADing your firearm, maybe for everyone's safety you shouldn't carry one....just saying....

[jocko]

I think it is a mental think more than the actual manual safety. One thing about a revolver, if by chance that cyliner is only partially lock, it willnot fire, not a safety realy but then I guess if one had the cylinder open it woldbe on safety. That is how I keep my model 60 in my drawer. It is fully loaded and the cylinder is alltheway out, takes less than a second to slam it home and good to go. In my case just don't want my wife or son seeing it and wel you know the bugger finge rin the trigger thing. I also feel it is a liability thing with these company's They evidkenlt feel better about one being on there than not. Kahr is about of the very few around that has nadda. I like that but Iknow alittle about guns, most might say, not going to buy that type of gun for my wife etc.

Hell Justin, u gotta kknow that there are alot and I mean alot of people who have zero business owning a firearm. Some who even think they know guns. Anyone who puts on one of the fancy CCW badges and prances aroudn with open carry, certainly IMO has no business with a gun PERIOD.

I would have no issues with a gun safety, it would never be on, but in my sons case I just felt much safer with a decent safety on his/mine G19.. I learned alot about guns over my 50+ years of owning and shooting gun. Youth today want to rush into allthis crapola, for as u know they know more than us. Experience trumps everything you can read in a bood or see on a video. Coruse back 50 years ago we had basicaly neither for gun knowledge, nor did we have the amount of ambulance chasers that we have today either.

I bet many a DA revolvers over the years ahve been squeewzed off by a stupid bugger finger being in the wrong place.

[mr surveyor]

I'm sure that the "fanboy" statements weren't directed specifically at me as I am not a fanboy of any particular manufacturer. I know they all have their lemons occassionally, which is a fact. As for Ruger, I have probably owned more Rugers over the years than any other brand (still have "a few"), but that doesn't make me a fanboy or an expert. I like the steel built Ruger's for their overall durability and quality. Yes, I have owned several Kel-Tec firearms in the last 6-7 years that filled a niche that nothing else at the time could. And, yes, KT's are not made to be range toys, nor are they all 100% reliable out of the box... although with the lifetime warranty they will be made reliable, upgraded to current design or they will be replaced. To be honest, out of the 6 KT's I have owned in the past, only two required returns for repair, and both were early models that were repaired to 100%. Do I still have them all....nope, but neither do I have all the Rugers or any of the S&W's (even though I believe S&W to be one of the premier steel handgun makers in American history. I also have Sig, Beretta, Kimber, Kahr, Marlin and others, all in limited numbers, and all fit a niche in my needs/wants. I am not a "fanboy" of any of them although I do see the value they each lend to me for their intended purpose.

It was my understanding many years ago that the design of the hammer block safety as it exists in the KT handguns and the LCP was in fact a Kelgren design, and the fact that Kelgren didn't file a copyright in the P3AT was his own neglect. The rest is history, and I can take it or leave it. My arguement was only trying to clear up the possibility of mis-information concerning the P3AT not having the safety block, and that (as alluded to) 70% of them did NOT have the safety block, thus making them automatically inferior to the "design" of the LCP.

Just one last ditch effort to set the record straight.


surv:cool:

[JustinN]

Jocko, I agree with all that, and I definitely didn't mean DA revolvers don't get the 'ol AD every now and again....I just find it interesting when people make a big deal of no safety on a Glock (choose a gun to replace Glock) but don't think twice about a revolver...

As far as leaving the cylinder open, leave your mag loose, but in the mag well with the gun locked open...when you pick it up slam in the mag and let the slide go...but I was more talking about for carry purposes, where carrying a kahr is just as safe/not safe (however you want to look at it) as a DA revolver.

[jocko]

surveyor, cetainly was not calling you a fanboi and I think you know that do. I did alude to you being a poster over there when I was on that forum. Really no argument on my part either,, kt has had the "safety block
on there guns for a long time, jsut from info I had it was not totally right either. I never knew of any kt not having a safety block. My point was that this safety block was found not to be totally reliable,hence forth their upgrade mod that they stated was for the trigger rest issue, .Which was never an issue with shooters who know guns, certainly not a safety issue. the ktog forum will go to the matt for kt's. Those that challenge are usually gone in a heartbeat, there for it is normally a very very pro kt forum.

I can say from this kahr forum that we have some kahr fanboi's I myself cheer for kahr but I have acknowledge to many before to that not all kahrs are right and somtimes kahrs CW sucks to. I have numerous times stated that I think one weakness in the poly kahrs is that damn little spring area of a stupid small ass screw treading into polymer.

I thought that was what gun forums are for, an exchange of info, be it pro or con. Now no doubt one has to come on any forum with some common sense or he will be history faster than heh.

so surveryor, no harm no foul from my stand point. We may disagree but that is not a bad thing either...

[joje]

lol ruger engineers did it again. looking forward to see the Ruger LFB since Kel-Tec never seems to ramp up the production and i'm sick of waiting for a 308 bullpup rifle for my laptop bag.

surveyor: nice to see you here.

[mr surveyor]

No problem from my point of view either Jocko. And, to clear up another little tidbit, I'm not a regular at KTOG, and never have been... actually I never felt a real warm welcome there as I was, and still am a long time member at the "other" KT site. Even on that site, I spend 95% of my time on the "non-gun" chatter (or cleaning up the mess left by bots and trolls) or the "other guns" chatter. Like here, it's more of an extended family that ends up finding we have more than guns (particularly the "site specific" guns) in common.

Life is Good:D


surv

[jlottmc]

Well I'm going to wait on this one for a spell, and see if it comes out in 40 as well. The SR-40, and hopefully soon to be added SR-40c are on my short list. Then again, I like the Taurus 740 slim as well. Like I said, I'm going to watch it for a while. BTW, the poly guns aren't sexy, but they do have a purpose and place in my arsenal.