MK9 wood grips installation- Screws.

[DasFriek]

I had read many issues about screw length when installing wood grips on this gun. But i wasn't sure if it had to do with older models or what.
But my grips needed longer screws.

I felt i had two options and i chose option one, But depending on what you guys say i may go to a back up plan.

Option one: Deepen the screw holes depth so the screws would reach, But i found by doing so i really shaved the wood under the top screws really thin.
As long as the wood is hard and strong it shouldn't be an issue, But i don't know how much stress the gun will put on that spot with recoil during firing.

Option two: I could have used 1911 screws like i had read about here and trimmed them if they went to far into the magwell. But i only had blued screws and the heads would require me to enlargen the screw holes head diameter. And then order new screws in stainless steel.

Option Three: This is my next move if you guys think the wood will split or the screws break threw the thin wood i left after i dremeled the holes enough the original screws would reach.
That is to take the grips off and put masking tape on the underside of the screw hole and half way fill the screw holes with JB Weld and then drill it out so it goes back to the original dimensions as they came stock. And buy new Stainless 1911 grip screws.

Besides that i do have an issue where i have a slight gap in the rear where the slabs meet at the bottom, Or i should say they don't meet. Its no large gap but for a perfectionist its kinda bothersome to me.
Part of the reason may be due to the fact i cant put alot of tension on the grip screws without fear of snapping something.
So do you wood guru's suggest going in and removing small touches of wood with light sandpaper to make it fit tighter?

Should i just shoot the gun and wait for something to happen and then fix it? Or do a preemptive strike and use option 3 and do the sanding to make them fit tighter also?

Yes, I know i have alot of spare time on my hands! lol

[Bawanna]

I don't think you have that much time on your hands. Many of the factory grips I've seen pictures of and even some for sale here didn't fit for beans to me with big ugly gaps along the back and an real eyesore on the bottom at the mag well.

The important thing is not to make them fit by cranking down the grip screws. This will almost always crack or damage the grips, remember they are wood, the screw is metal, metal with large driver versus wood, wood loses every time.

It may take more than light sanding to make those grips fit, there are several layers that meet the metal and changing one level means changing the next level until everything meets and the gap is closed and even but not to the point where the wood is keeping the grips off the frame if you follow. You gotta take enough but you can't take too much.

All the screws do is hold the grip in place, they shouldn't have to be super tight so a thin layer of wood under the screw head is fine as long as the grip fits. You might try a longer screw and put a rubber oring under the head to take up some of the length. The oring will compress, hold the screw and squeeze out to hold the grip better than the head alone.

Any of your options will work but first I'd try to make them fit right and be pleasing to the eye. Life is too short to be packing ill fitting and unsightly grips around.

Just my penny's worth.

[TD2K]

are you talking about "off the shelf" grips? Not the grips Bawanna makes, hopefully. :bitenails:

[DasFriek]

Nah, They were ordered from Kahr's website. Bawanna would have never sent these out knowing the perfectionist ive read about him and talking to him.
I was just gonna send him a PM and just ask him about this privately, But i feel sometimes its good that discussions happen publicly so some answers are left for others to find later.
We had already spoke about this prior to me getting the grips threw shipping as i knew these weren't gonna be a drop in item.

Id like to say one thing tho, Im a perfectionist and will redo a job 3-4 times and fine tune it each time. And i like parts that aren't "drop-in" so they can be over-sized and then fitted perfectly. An undersized part just leaves you with something thats worthless as you can usually never add material.
I learned this from hand fitting parts in my 1911's.

"SO KAHR DOES THE RIGHT THING AND SEND THESE OUT WITH THEM BEING OVER SIZED AND NEED HAND FITTING AND NOT A DROP-IN PART."

I wanted to state that as it may sound like im complaining but in reality im learning as im not the best with wood working, I do better with hand fitting metal parts.

Bawanna- I went threw ebay last night and found some nice stainless screws for a 1911 made by Fusion, I have a set of their slim bushings and screws and they are the strongest ive ever seen. Many 1911 screw heads will snap off real easy and that happened with Wilson and EGW screws which i never would have expected. But when using Locktite on these type of screws is enough to snap them and it usually happens when im taking them off.
Then ill hit up Home Depot and get some rubber bushings as i really like that idea, Ill still put some JB Weld down the holes to reinforce the wood. I know its a little over built that way but better safe than sorry. The top screw actually isn't supported under the screw hole so it wouldn't take much for it to pull the screw threw the thin wood.
I think ill add a cut to fit washer under it as im afraid to fill the gap with JB Weld as it may crumble over time and vibration on the frame and cause a failure.

I ran into the layer issues when i tried putting the grips on, The bottom screw hole would go flush as a layer above it needed sanded away for clearance of the bar the screw is tapped in.
So ill break out the 200 grit paper and sand lightly until i get a perfect fit.

Honestly i could leave it as it is as the gap isn't horrendous, And cant even be felt when holding it with my palm over the gap.

Thanks for the help as i have a new game plan to make it perfect and kill a few hours with my gun which i always like.

[Bawanna]

I'm waiting for some answers even prior to this deal but it sounds like you have a newer style frame and older style grips.
I made some for someone, Kahrseye? MikeyKahr? but it was an elite I think. He said they fit perfectly but he had to use 2 different length screws because the frame was recessed.
I get more and more confused everyday.

[DasFriek]

He was right, The top screws hole is recessed on the bar that goes across the frame. Most likely its used to keep the magazine held in place.
This is why i was most concerned as the top screw holes in the grips i had to deepen them the most so they reach, But also there is no direct support under them as the hole is recessed as i said. So the screw and wood is unsupported with no steel in contact with it.
It seems they would have built another shelf since they use so many of those on the inside area so there isnt a gap between the wood and steel frame.

Thats the main reason of my concern as the bottom screws are not too much issue as i didn't have to deepen the holes as much and the wood lay against the steel frame so there is little chance the wood would break or split.

Id say Kahr really should address this with proper screws fit to work with these grips.
I just ordered a set of 1911 stainless hex screws from Fusion which are the strongest 1911 screws ive found. But i wont be messing with the gun fit wise until i get the screws here and ill buy the O-rings ahead of time.
I still may have to shorten a few of them as the 1911 screws are easily 2x as long as the Kahr screws.
I would take it apart and snap some pics so you could see what im talking about, But since i have them locktite'd in I don't want to chance snapping a head off as im not sure as to the strength of the screws Kahr uses as ive broken quite a few 1911 screws heads right off when they are locktited in good.

BTW i didn't mention this, But the grips look great and feel even better even tho they do add a few mm's to the width but nothing that interferes with concealing the gun. I also ordered the 9mm polymer mag base for the 6 round not-so-flush mags and no it locks my second finger in tight when gripping the gun. Definitely a good mod also comfort and looks wise.
I showed the gun to my mom and i think she would like me to trade her my MK9 for her Walther PPS9 i sold her last year. That is NOT gonna happen.
But i wouldnt mind having the PPS back, But im not letting go of the MK for anything at this point.

[Bawanna]

I think I know what your talking about. Kahr I believe also tells us they don't make wood grips for the new model. What we need to do is make the wood on the back of the grip fit down into that recess so it's backed against the metal, then we could deepen the screw so all the screws are the same length and the top ones are just deeper in the wood.
Will no doubt make them even more of a pain to make than they already are. Lots of different places that have to match up but once you get it right they fit and stay on really nice. Just a challenge I guess.

I thought this was just an Elite thing but it must be the 98 version versus the 2003 version?

My research continues...............................

[DasFriek]

The screws need to be longer no matter what.
Even the bottom ones i had to deepen them quite far also, Almost the same amount. But with the wood on the steel its no issue.
That shelf on the top screw would be a good addition even with longer screws as i could see someone tightening the screw down enough to split the wood.

IMO the best route would be adding that shelf and just leave a small recess in the wood so the screws go flush with the grip like a 1911 is and use full length 1911 screws.

The grips now have the screw holes sunk rather deep into the grips making 1911 screws too long, But if they just made them deep enough to let the screw head sink flush the full sized 1911 screw shouldn't even need adjusted length wise.

I cant answer differences between MK model revisions other than mine is a newer model plain MK9.
Im gonna still pick up those O-rings but i think im gonna try filling the screw holes with JB-weld and leave just enough room to sink the heads flush.
Be aware tho most 1911 screw heads are larger than the Kahrs and the hole may need opened up in diameter a bit to allow the screw to sink in.

[MikeyKahr]

I made some for someone, Kahrseye? MikeyKahr?

Not me, although I must say I'd be honored to have some grips handmade by you, my friend. An MK9 or a K9 are on my short list once funds are replenished. But if memory serves me correct, I think it was Kahrseye.

[Bawanna]

Not me, although I must say I'd be honored to have some grips handmade by you, my friend. An MK9 or a K9 are on my short list once funds are replenished. But if memory serves me correct, I think it was Kahrseye.

I think your right. I'll put you on the list soon as you know which one you get. I'd be equally honored to make ya some.

[DasFriek]

I would have asked you also Bawanna, But being so new here i dont like to impose on people who dont know me yet.
But in time hopefully we can get there, I love paying for high quality craftsmanship.

I hope i get the new 1911 SS screws by the end of the week as the guy who lists on Ebay is part of Fusion the gun maker so they are quick, Plus very high quality parts.
When i do ill get pics and document everything.

I did carry it today with the wood grips in my back pocket with my 270lb behind sitting on it and far as i know its still in one piece.
I could start on it now and use blued screws and just swap them out when the new ones arrive, Ill just see how much time i have.

[Bawanna]

Don't anyone hesitate to impose on me. Never hurts to ask. Worst I can do is say no if I got too many to make and then I usually won't say no, I'll just say it's gonna be awhile.
Don't take a whole lot to get me booked up, kind of time consuming as you well know.

If anyone decides to make their own grip and get em all done but want checkering I can do that too.

I'll sure never be rich doing this wood stuff but I like doing it and I like helping people out that like this kind of stuff so its all very good for me.

[jocko]

Das Friek. did u know that efery set of grips that Bawanna makes for special people they also get a strainer with the grips. Now what you have to do is put the grips in the strainer and pour water over them and what settles in the cup is Bawann'as B.S that was left on the grips. NOW YOU REALLY HAVE A SET OF VIRGIN GRIPS.

His work is fabolus, his B.S. is not so good, u need to separate the two and therefore the strainer comes into play. Please don't ask me how I now all of this either.

[Bawanna]

And to think I was gonna put him in charge of Marketing.

[DasFriek]

I don't see how he has any time to work on wood as hes always on here spreading all that B.S. you say he has.
I did look into checkering tools and it looked rather confusing so i most likely need to read a few guides to see what tools id need, But at this point i don't think id use them much.
So maybe in time once the newness of the grips wears off a bit ill get with you and see how busy you are.

[Bawanna]

Funny, my wife got me a set of checkering tools for birthday or something long long ago. I had them for years, looked at them, I could not for the life of me figure out how they worked or what I was suppose to do with them. Just didn't comprehend how they work like little saws or files.
Until I did some reading and figured out the layout and stuff it was all foreign. It was one of the a ha moments where the light came on. It was dim but there definitely was a light.

My wife got me a little mini laptop now so when I'm in my man cave I can take a peak now and then and see whats happening here. I do get more done when I just log out and work but then I always wonder what I'm missing and worry about you guys plottin on me so maybe it's a wash?

[DasFriek]

No, they are plotting for sure.....

[kahrseye]

Not me, although I must say I'd be honored to have some grips handmade by you, my friend. An MK9 or a K9 are on my short list once funds are replenished. But if memory serves me correct, I think it was Kahrseye.

I haven't received any grips......yet. But I'm sure they're on their way. Right Bawanna?:crazy:

[Bawanna]

I haven't received any grips......yet. But I'm sure they're on their way. Right Bawanna?:crazy:

Ummmm, yeah! Just a couple more days.

Dang I wonder who I'm forgetting here, seems like he lived in Portland or around Portland OR.

Seems like he was kahr something or something kahr. Nice guy. I'm gonna have to start keeping records or something, I'm beginning to get confused easily.

Now I'm ticked I can't remember the guys handle. Pun fully intended and struck against the top of my head causing due and justified pain on myself.


Gosh!

[kahrseye]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really feel bad about that pain in your head. So when can I expect those grips? Remember MK9 Elite 03.

[Bawanna]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really feel bad about that pain in your head. So when can I expect those grips? Remember MK9 Elite 03.

Oh this is a real nightmare revisited. His was a MK9 Elite 03 also. Had to use two different screw lengths on account of my MK was different.
I'm trying to fandangle some frames from kahr so I got the right one to build em right on.
I'll build ya some soon as I can lay hands on a MK9 Elite, I truely will. Would you like frys with that?
I'm gonna start me a notebook right now this minute to start writing stuff down since the mind seems to be slippin.

I just sent some Commander grips down to Old? crap, ??? Old Lincoln so he should be hanging them on tomorrow probably.

[kahrseye]

Bawanna, I'm just kidding. I would not expect you to do that for me. Don't give it a seconds worth of worry.

[Bawanna]

Bawanna, I'm just kidding. I would not expect you to do that for me. Don't give it a seconds worth of worry.

Its too late now buddy. I put you on the list and I wrote it in ink so your not even penciled in, your inked.
I see much sawdust in my future and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Bawanna]

Wow I just watched biggest loser. Made em do a 5k right off the get go on the tread mill. Got nothing on me I just typed a 5k. I'm an addict.

[TD2K]

I used to watch that show, but it made me hungry.

[kahrseye]

Its too late now buddy. I put you on the list and I wrote it in ink so your not even penciled in, your inked.
I see much sawdust in my future and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Ah, there you go making me feel special. :bump2: I'm not sure what to do when a guy makes me feel special :eek:, but I'll figure something out.

[Bawanna]

Ah, there you go making me feel special. :bump2: I'm not sure what to do when a guy makes me feel special :eek:, but I'll figure something out.

Special is good and requires no effort on your part, lessen of course it's Deitrich that says your special, this might raise a few flags and some precautionary steps might be in order.
Like to meet face to face someday, I look for him whenever I drive by our prison but so far I haven't seen him outside the fence. Might be wearing camo grease?

[DasFriek]

My new Fusion Stainless hex 1911 grips screws came in off Ebay, I cant say enough good things about Fusions grip screws as they are the strongest ive ever seen.
Ive had many snap the heads off while being removed after applying blue locktite.
Here is what i bought.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=250749886247&si=5DgmR2TbflUzUyKRRlMQH1LSc7s%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT

(Edit) I dont know what meds i missed or took 3x more of but had i not dremeled out my screw holes to make the original ones fit, The 1911 screws would have been a perfect fit with just a little grinding of them down needed.

I did get some pics for Bawanna if they may help in your grip making with that recess.

[DasFriek]

This is the finished gun with the screws in.
I think it makes an already sweet looking gun even more refined.
My main advice is use Fusion 1911 screws as ive really cranked on them and haven't snapped a single one, Ill use them on all my 1911 when possible.
And if you want to be really safe adding the o-ring under the top screw on the backside of the grip really helps support all that pressure while it sits over top of that large recess.
BTW grind your screws slowly, Don't use a cut off wheel. You can guess as to why i say this.
Ive worked hours to get that small gap in the rear of the grips at the bottom to meet up and close, But it still fights me so im gonna let it win as it don't bother me as much as me screwing the grips up sanding and grinding too much. Ive come to the conclusion that if i sand on the upper portion it would close the gap as when i tighten the upper screws thats when the gap begins and gets worse as i tighten them.
But im done with it and can live with it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00460.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00461.jpg

Here you can see the flushness after i fixed my screw holes after i shouldnt have dremeled them out trying to make the stock screws work.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00459.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00458.jpg

Here you can see the recess in the frame Bawanna, When i had my grip holes deep and the wood so thin this is what made me scared the grip would split.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00436.jpg

Here is the solution is the #60 O-ring under the grip on the screw and it supports the wood much better, Id advise this even under normal usage if you are like me and over tighten everything.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00454.jpg

[Bawanna]

Good pictures! That #60 O ring just might do the trick to fill that gap. For the life of me I can't understand why that top screw hole is recessed. If it's to guide the magazine they could have still left it flat on the outside. Perhaps a weight saving or something.
With that O ring in place you still couldn't use the factory screws correct? They would be too short. They are apparently set deep so all the screws could be the same length.
I have TD2K's on the drawing board but found that my loaner MK9 is an earlier frame style and hers is like yours with that recess.

That gap on the backstrap can drive you nuts. I see the inside edge of the back strap has already has some material removed, sometimes that flat on the back has to be angled some so the gap closes. Too many bearing surfaces to make it easy, thats for sure. Your getting close.

I have to get some O rings, don't have a single one left. For sure gonna get some 60's and some the same size but thinner diameter wise for under the screw heads.

[jocko]

I would think PURPLE locktite or thread locker would be your best to use. It is locktites weakest thread locker and specified for small screws such as grip screw and even smalle.r Most gun stores sell the purple lockers. Not the easiest tofind in auto stores for it is considered maybe to week,but ideal for scope screws etc or anygun screw. It holds but does n't strip heads out or small tools out either..

weakner to stronger = purple, blue, red and green..

if u use green or red, don't count on getting them out..

[kahrseye]

This is the finished gun with the screws in.
I think it makes an already sweet looking gun even more refined.
My main advice is use Fusion 1911 screws as ive really cranked on them and haven't snapped a single one, Ill use them on all my 1911 when possible.
And if you want to be really safe adding the o-ring under the top screw on the backside of the grip really helps support all that pressure while it sits over top of that large recess.
BTW grind your screws slowly, Don't use a cut off wheel. You can guess as to why i say this.
Ive worked hours to get that small gap in the rear of the grips at the bottom to meet up and close, But it still fights me so im gonna let it win as it don't bother me as much as me screwing the grips up sanding and grinding too much. Ive come to the conclusion that if i sand on the upper portion it would close the gap as when i tighten the upper screws thats when the gap begins and gets worse as i tighten them.
But im done with it and can live with it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00460.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00461.jpg

Here you can see the flushness after i fixed my screw holes after i shouldnt have dremeled them out trying to make the stock screws work.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00459.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00458.jpg

Here you can see the recess in the frame Bawanna, When i had my grip holes deep and the wood so thin this is what made me scared the grip would split.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00436.jpg

Here is the solution is the #60 O-ring under the grip on the screw and it supports the wood much better, Id advise this even under normal usage if you are like me and over tighten everything.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00454.jpg
Those grips look nice DasFriek. :israel: What kind of wood is that?

[DasFriek]

Kahr says this about the wood "Exotic Hardwood PAU FERRO" as i just ordered from them, I actually ordered the checkered ones but they were on back order i found out when my order hadn't shipped in 3 day's. I Emailed Kahr and then they told me they only had smooth in stock.
Id agree on the purple Locktite and ill be looking for some. I really have more issues of weak screws than locktite that works to well, But to fix that the purple stuff may be needed. Ill say i torqued the Fusion screws down as i have them on 2 guns and they seem as strong as any high quality machine screw ive ever seen.
Ive snapped Wilson and EGW screws just trying to get them out with the blue stuff applied to them.

Bawanna- Yes the #60 fits that gap rather well and slightly makes you put some pressure in tightening the screw before the grip will go flush, But not so much it would snap a head off.

I didn't look to close at the stock plastic grips i took off, But its possible they may use that recess to keep those in place. But thats just a guess and ill look later for sure.
If your making grips id just ask make them as if the recess doesn't exist and send her 2 of the o-rings to put on the back of the top screws.
I did remove material from both slabs on the back strap, And they will line up perfectly.
But once enough screw tension is applied to the point the grips wont move or squeak while squeezing them the gap will get larger again.
Its the top screws that are pulling the gap open, And quite frankly im done messing with it. But i will attempt to loosen the top screws some and even try removing the o-ring and see how it does. Its very noticeable in the pics, But to the average person holding them they wouldn't even notice it.
The o-rings aren't necessary items imo unless you grind the screw holes down like i did to make the stock screws work as the wood will be so thin under the screw it could easily pull right threw the grip.
When i put the stock screws in the grips when they arrived the screw would only reach flush with the inside of the panel and even the bottom screw that doesn't have that recess wasn't even long enough to reach the frame.

Kahr really needs to start supplying screws with grips as they cant expect the average Joe to know to buy 1911 screws and then grind them down to fit. If i guessed i ground off 2mm off the length, But as you know measure twice as im just guessing as i didn't measure mine.
BTW if you gonna add thinner O-rings under the screw heads you may have to work with the hole depth and width as ive found no 1911 screws are alike.
The Fusion screws i used are thicker depth on the head, But the diameter around is smaller and fit perfectly in the Kahrs holes. But other 1911 screws ive tried had heads with too much diameter and can make you open the hole up wider.
So i really suggest the Fusion screws even tho they are expensive.