Reloading Lead in my Kahr

[100percent]

I just noticed that there is a reloading section. Had this posted under ammunition.

I loaded some hand loads for my 40's (PM40 and glock) yesterday.
I used some Conical Flat Point 180 grain lead bullets and some Winchester 231 powder. I was impressed with how light I could go and still have a round that cycled in both guns. My Kahr shot to point of aim at 40 feet and I could group them in the black of a NRA 25 yard hand gun target. My glock shot a bit lower and less accurate. My glock barrel stayed clean but my Kahr leaded up a bit. I am going to try using a slower powder on my next batch.

It is really nice to be able to one hand my Kahr

[Bawanna]

My bad! I should have noted that and moved your original post. Didn't make the connection, been a busy busy day.

[100percent]

My foray into reloading lead 180 grain precast bullets for my PM40 has been a bit stymied. I was not able to prevent rather anoying leading.

My glock shot all of my loads reliably without leading. I loaded them using Winchester 231 from minimum to maximum loads. I will next try them with Unique.


For now I have gone back to plated and jacketed bullets (180 FMJ and 200 Berry plated)

[earle8888]

My experience-- Tetra the barrel very very well!!!! That is clean ALL lead and Gilded metal out of the barrel. I use the lead removal cloth by Birchwood casidy. Then with a Tetra coated patch over a brass brush, stroke in and out rapidly, until the barrel warms up noticeably. Then do it again and again, about 3 to 4 times, clean and then do the same only just a couple times after shooting. Have done this with 19 Glock and PM40 and P 45. Has worked for me!

[100percent]

earl
I have not heard of tetra lube. Will check it out thanks.

[Tilos]

Leading, one of the most discussed topics in loading.
I have found it has to do with the throat transtion length(forcing cone in a revolver), barrel twist, and barrel finish.
The bullet's going to skid before picking up the twist of the rifling and short barreled guns usually have a fast twist rate, adding to the leading problem.
There's more than one company making and selling a lot of barrels for Glocks for this reason.

With Precision Delta selling jacketed bullets at or near cast bullet prices, I don't even try to improve a gun that leads, just switch to jacketed.

just sayin'
Tilos

[earle8888]

Tilos--- some people shot lead for reasons or their than cost!
Have used Lyman #2 alloy bullets hunting in Montana. Experience dictates that at velocities less that 1200FPS muzzle they out perform jacketed. That's a thought to ponder!

[100percent]

I loaded a box of 1000 180g precision delta bullets and have shot about half of them. They shoot fine but still are more than triple the cost of lead. At this point my kahr is the only 40 that doesnt digest them.

I agree that leading is a wierd thing. My 357 leads not at the breach but more toward the muzzle. The lead that is deposited just falls out with very little cleaning. Most autos that I have which lead leave their smudge at the breach where the rifling is engaged and the lead is much harder to remove. I have found that the "speed" of the powder tends make the leading change. w231 tends to make the lead occur where the rifling is first engaged. With the slower powders such as 2400 the leading occurs further down the barrel. Unique is a bit slower than w231 but may not be enough slower. I am going to move down my list.

I would not argue with Earle that Lead bullets are a very effective bullet and can reduce the wear on the gun. My main reason however is to have a less expensive way of maintaining a higher level of practice.

Thanks for responding.

[Bawanna]

The big factor in barrel leading is velocity. Get up around 1000 FPS and you get leading. My problem when I loaded lead was I kept wanting to push the envelope back in the days when I enjoyed recoil and big bangs. Slow em down and leading becomes less of an issue.
Of course the makeup of the lead is a big factor also. The harder they are the faster you can shoot em without leading.
Most of the ranges around me have now banned lead bullets so I'm a Precision Delta man now although I have yet to load any yet. Trying to whittle out a few grips before I bond with the reloading press again.
I look at it often as it's right at my elbow but just looking for now.

[100percent]

Hi bawanna
Luckily, I don't have to worry about ranges, just shoot off the porch or in the woods. I am hoping to maintain my shooting costs under 8-9 cents a round.

I would agree that slower generally is a good way to prevent leading. I am sure that my rounds are down under 800 fps. I have not checked this load but I had some 175g swc lead bullets that were loaded similarly and they were 750fps. I shot a racoon with one last year leaving it drt.

I think you are going to like your precision delta bullets. My Kahr shoots tight groups with them. Mine are 180gr. Make sure you size them to fit your Kahr. The chambers are pretty tight, well at least mine is.

Not sure if any handloaders have posted success with their Kahrs. Kind of hoping to see.



The big factor in barrel leading is velocity. Get up around 1000 FPS and you get leading. My problem when I loaded lead was I kept wanting to push the envelope back in the days when I enjoyed recoil and big bangs. Slow em down and leading becomes less of an issue.
Of course the makeup of the lead is a big factor also. The harder they are the faster you can shoot em without leading.
Most of the ranges around me have now banned lead bullets so I'm a Precision Delta man now although I have yet to load any yet. Trying to whittle out a few grips before I bond with the reloading press again.
I look at it often as it's right at my elbow but just looking for now.

[Bawanna]

For sure some effort required on the length of my reloads. I had issues with my Rainier plated bullets but I was just loading to book length which I found was too long for my Kahr as well as a few of my other 45's as well. I got that issue taken care of by not trusting the book and testing in the actual barrel to make sure they go in and drop out.

[100percent]

I would agree that my kahr PM40 doesn't like to eject loaded rounds. The cut in the slide appears to be a bit short. I load mine to minimum length to help this.

[Tilos]

earle8888:
Understood, I've competed in IHMSA for a number of years and shoot nothing but lead, and I'm sure you didn't hunt in Montana with a Kahr.
So we're talking different applications here.
I just said, for me, if a defense gun is problematic shooting lead I just don't put a lot of effort into resolving it.
Now if I was competing with it and putting a lot of lead:rolleyes: down range, I might lap the barrel, throat, etc.

So, one gun shoots lead no problem and one does not.
Do we know the twist rates of the 2 guns in question?
I don't, but for someone having a problem it is posibbly something to research.
I'm just offering some direction to isolate the element that is creating the leading.
I'm not poopooing the shooting of lead at all, sorry you took it that way.

just sayin'
Tilos

[Bawanna]

He said poo poo:eek:

Oh according to the Martha Stewart book of etiquite thats OK on account of it's natural.

Now just hold the hosses here a minute, there's other natural things that are not mentionable, except in Arkansas I think. I shall ponder this.

[500KV]

I load quite a bit of lead in my handgun calibers and, over the years, have had problems with leading at times.
A couple of things I've picked up to limit leading is the combination of properly sized bullets, you dont want the bullet to go skidding down the bore like a bobslead, and Lee Liquid Alox lube.
Put a small amount in a gallon size zip lock bag, give it a couple of shots of alcohol or mineral spirits to thin it down a little and roll them around.
I then dump the bullets out on wax paper or aluminum foil to dry (overnight).

I don't cast anymore so I use this on the lubed cast bullets I buy bulk.
I have also had better results using the slower powders, like Unique, with lead bullets.

A few strands of Choreboy copper pad wraped around a bore brush also helps when cleaning a leaded barrel.
BTW: A little of the LA goes a long way so don't be too generous with it.:music:

[100percent]

Hi Tilos
Not sure of the twist rate. My glock and kahr have similar rifling and are the same caliber. My guess is that the twist is either identical or nearly so. My glock is a number of years (10) old and has been shot a lot. Probably the throat is smoother in the glock. Maybe after I shoot another 500 fmj rounds my Kahr will do what my glock does.

I'll keep you posted after more trials.

Thanks for the input.

I am not interested in shooting buck a round ammo. I bought a box of some fancy hollow points and loaded them up and in a few seconds half of them were gone. Had a bad feeling about using them after that.


earle8888:
Understood, I've competed in IHMSA for a number of years and shoot nothing but lead, and I'm sure you didn't hunt in Montana with a Kahr.
So we're talking different applications here.
I just said, for me, if a defense gun is problematic shooting lead I just don't put a lot of effort into resolving it.
Now if I was competing with it and putting a lot of lead:rolleyes: down range, I might lap the barrel, throat, etc.

So, one gun shoots lead no problem and one does not.
Do we know the twist rates of the 2 guns in question?
I don't, but for someone having a problem it is posibbly something to research.
I'm just offering some direction to isolate the element that is creating the leading.
I'm not poopooing the shooting of lead at all, sorry you took it that way.

just sayin'
Tilos

[Tilos]

I too shoot lead thru a glock23 that I hardly shot until I bought a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel and now it's my range gun of choice.
I lapped and polished that barrel, but it leads a little and tells you when it needs cleaning as the accuracy goes away.

When shooting steel challenge with lead, I have to consider wind direction for target engagement order, because waiting for lube smoke to clear doesn't help your stage times much:o.

Maybe you can fire lap the Kahr barrel.

just sayin'
Tilos

[100percent]

I looked at the barrel of my PM40 and noticed that there is a ridge on about half of the barrel throat with concentric rings. My glock is amazingly smooth in the same area. So much for the barrel quality of the 800 dollar Kahr. More of a fantasy than any reality. My Kahr does shoot FMJ rounds better than my Glock does.

I am giving up on the lead rounds on my Kahr until it chokes down another 500-1000 fmj rounds. My wife has a HighPoint 40 that gobbles up lead and my glock does good with PB as well. I have plenty of ammo to load right now.

Give me another few months before I try lead again in my Kahr.

[Tilos]

100percent:
WoW, Most people never look at a barrel that closely.
Yes, it's common for the pilot of the reamer to score the rifling some, just ahead of the chamber, during the process of reaming.

Polishing will improve it some, but it'll still be there.

Chips will clog a reamer and cause grooves, rings, etc.
Something called "pecking" will minimize this, but it takes more time, which costs more money.
Pecking is backing the reamer out several times during the operation to flush out the chips.

Way more info than needed, I'll shut up now.

just sayin'
Tilos

[100percent]

Hi Tilos,
My work involves using binocular microscopes in the 5-25x range. I am used to looking for problems with some magnification.

With my naked eyes I could see a groove half way around where the manufacturer throated the barrel. With magnification the throat has defects. There is also some chatter marks in the rifling, not unusual.

My gun shoots good so I have no complaint and don't think my Kahr needs replacement parts. I plan on fire lapping it with fmj rounds. I hope that I will be able to shoot 30,000 rounds (like jocko) and will like the barrel for the last 29,000 rounds, if my gun lasts that long. I have been shooting about 50-100 a week through it so I have shot it a few hundred rounds.
Take care.

[earle8888]

Question??? 'Fire Lapping' or just 'Shooting in' a pistol-- does this really lap or hone??Or does it just burnish other metals to make it smoooooother?

[100percent]

Earle
I don't plan on using anything but normal bullets, no special abrasive bullets. Just lapping it by firing it.

[earle8888]

Sorry I should have been more specific--I was referring to 'Guilde' metal jacketing. Maybe lead!!

[Tilos]

500KV:
Liquid alox is good stuff and a bottle comes with Lee's sizing dies.

I have a wimpy single stage press dedicated to sizing and can re-size a box of 500 bullets in about 20 minutes.
I push all of the cast bullets I buy thru a Lee sizing die and have found it helps with accuracy and leading.

I don't cast but acquired a LOT of 38 as cast bullets.
By a lot I mean 10-5 lbs. coffee cans and 25-1 lbs. cans full!!

I got a lubing/sizing press with the bullets but sold it as it was too much like work and liquid alox works better.
I just roll them in a cool whip container with liquid alox, push them thru the sizing die, lube them again, and call that done.
And, when you size them it pushed the Alox into the lube grooves:eek:
I wipe each bullet base when loading.
They shoot a lttle messy but hey, free bullets.

I re-size all the 9mm lead bullets I buy for the same reason, less leading, better accuracy.
I have several sizing dies .355 thru .358 to size to each gun.

Way too much info right there.
Tilos

[100percent]

tilos
Nice stash of 38 bullets. I have some lee alox and will try lubing my bullets with them.

[Tilos]

100:
Yes, but they are all 148gr wadcutters:(.
I load them to .357 data, in a 38 case and crimp 'em long in a lube groove to match .357 case capacity.

They stick out of a 38 cylinder, so no chance of anyone ever shooting them out of a 38 'cause the cylinder won't close or turn:eek:.
GP100 and Blackhawk only ammo.
Shoots dirty, smokey, but Alox smells nice enough.

A subject for another thread someday maybe...wheel guns.
Wrong place though.

Tilos

[94zcar]

Ok guys, lots of interesting comments on shooting lead bullets. I recently bought a couple of boxes of 500 lead bullets from Magnus and Midway. Some .380 and some 9mm. Magnus says their lead bullets are 18 brinell. Is that hard enough that I can load them to midrange pressure and shoot them out of a pistol with regular lands and grooves rifling and not worry about leading? I'm using some HP-38. The .380 are 92 grain and the 9mm is 124 grain.

[Tilos]

94zcar:
Because you asked about lead bullets, go here, lots to read for us techno types.

MBC makes and sells THE best cast bullets on line and will cast any Brinell, then size them to whatever you want.

Good prices and fast delivery...life is good.

http://www.missouribullet.com/index.php

You will be shocked at the prices after buying Magnus from Midway.
just sayin'
Tilos

[94zcar]

Thanks Tilos, lots of good info. Very interesting how the gases blowing by the bullets cause the leading. I like that formula they have to calculate the correct hardness. 18 brinell should work just fine for me. Good prices also!

One reason I bought from Magnus is they take Paypal, so I don't get in trouble with the wife after spending lots of $$$ on bullets. I make a little xtra money selling stuff sometimes on Ebay.

[Tilos]

Good to know it helped you.
I returned stuff bought on a c card once and when buying a car they ran a credit check.
The guy comes back and says, "now that's a 1st, they owe YOU money".
I have friends that we buy each other's stuff for the reason you mentioned.

Back on subject, if you get leading towards the crown end of the barrel, the lube is not doing it's job.
After shooting lead the barrel crown should have lube smooge in a flower pedal pattern matching the rifling.
That tells you the lube lasted the entire trip down the barrel.
MBC uses good lube.
Tilos

[94zcar]

Ok Thanks Tilos http://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif...I'll be looking for that lube on the end of the barrel, If I have time in the next couple of days i'm going to shoot some of the hard cast I loaded up. I just bought a chrony so I'm gonna test a few different loads and some factory ammo.:)

[100percent]

zcar; Keep an eye out for leading. Mine smeared it pretty heavy at the breach. I was using 180 grain FN conical lead bullets. I tried them down to below minimum loads to near max with win 231, Unique and win WSF loads.

At this point my gun would shoot them accurately but each did lead the breach of my PM40.

I am planning on using my lead bullets for use in my other 4 40sw firearms none of them are Kahrs.

The only other issue you might have with a Kahr is to test fit all of your rounds. My Kahr has a tighter chamber and throat than my other 40s. I have had to take many of my hand loaded 40sw rounds and resize them for my Kahr.

[Tilos]

Somewhere back we briefly touch on fire lapping a barrel, so here's a couple of links to threads about it.
I've done it, and it works.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73436

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/89978-FIRELAPPING-UPDATE-01-31-10-Savage-10FP-Results-Post-18?highlight=firelapping

just sayin'
Tilos

[100percent]

Thanks for the links. Might be a slow process making sure that each pre shot brass will actually fit in the Kahr. One fellow did mention that shooting 200 rounds of jacketed ammo then cleaning the gun with polish might work

[100percent]

tilos I got a chance to make treat some lead bullets with valve grinding compound impressed on them using the technique in the links.

I loaded my Kahr with them and shot 5 rounds. Having to manually recharge for each round, I ended up running 10 rounds through it between cleanings. The throat looks a lot smoother. I am going to stick to metal jackets in this gun. Probably the rifling won't support lead anyhow. thanks

I also worked on my 44 using the same technique. With good results. It was too cold to do any kind of targeting. Just go out shoot and come back to clean and then reload.

[Tilos]

100:
Good to hear of your success in fire lapping and those links got you going.

I'm still jealous about your back yard range.
Shoot, WALK back inside, warm up, clean your gun, reload, have a coffee, that hurts, rub it in:(.
How about too cold when you're 10 miles from home, go back inside, right, to my car:(

I only have an itty bitty gun with me, but I still might just go to the indoor range today, pay th fees, and burns some powder.
You have inspired me to shoot, as my loading stuff is somewhere else.

Tilos