New PM9...sights off?

[jackblack73]

Hi all, new member. You have a nice forum here. I recently picked up a PM9 and shot it for the first time today. My concern is that it is shooting low. I'm an experienced Glock shooter, so I'm well aware of new shooters blaming low and left shots on the pistol when the problem is actually their trigger control. However, for a couple of reasons I think the problem is the gun and not me. First, I rented a PM9 before purchasing, and from the very first group I could shoot 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups that were dead on. Second, if it was poor trigger control, I think my groups would be much larger. These are the very first two groups out of my new PM9. First pic is 6 rounds, second 5, both from 7 yards.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/1-1.jpg
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/2-1.jpg

I consistently shot low the whole time. I did let another shooter try it. He didn't shoot low, but his groups were more like 5 inches, so I don't know if that told me anything. I benchrested it and shot low also.

Before going to the range, I noticed that the slide sits a little higher on the frame when the trigger is cocked. The gap between the frame and slide is a little wider. Then when the trigger is pulled it all drops down a fraction of an inch and the gap is narrower. Is this normal? Could this be the cause?

What does everyone think? Am I wrong for blaming the gun. I'm a decent shooter and have no problem shooting 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups with all of my guns (Sig, Glock, 1911) where POA is POI. I can even hold 2 inch groups shooting my Sig in DA, without shooting it low.

If the problem is the gun, should I send it in to Kahr? Or do you think they won't help me and I should just buy a new front sight?

The good news is I consider it 100% reliable so far. I fired 100 rounds of FMJ and had no failures to feed or eject. I even had no problems slingshoting the slide. The slide did lock back mid-magazine once, but I'm 100% sure I hit the slide release with my thumb because I shoot thumbs forward. I need to work on my grip since the PM9 is so small. Also, the other guy that shot it fired about 20 rounds. He had one failure of the slide to lock back on an empty mag. But he was benchresting it and said he was limpwristing it.

[jocko]

how about just chagning your sight picture a tad. see more of the front sight. What your groups are, IMO are very easy fixable. This gun is new to you, certainlynot gonna feel and shoot like your glock either. The loooooong trigger of kahrs takes some time. I can assure you we see far far more lows than highs from kahr shooters and I attribute that to the trigger system. I hav over 30,000 + rounds through my PM9 and I never shoot high to this day and most of my groups are low and right (left hand shooter), but on a FBI "Q: type silhouette they are al lin the com zone so that pleases me.
You ask here, so just my opinion, I think you just need to shoot this PM9 about 200+ rounds and you will get the feel for it alot better. Your t wo groups for the first outting again IMO is extremely good, .

Try not to compare your glock to your kahr, both two different guns, trigger systems are diffent, over all feel if alot different, your glock is bigger... no safety's on kahrs, other than the looooong trigger system. Some people never master the kahr trigger either..

[jackblack73]

I hear what you're saying jocko, but remember, I rented a PM9 before shooting my own and had no problems from the get go. So I'm not just comparing it to my Glock or other pistols. I loved the Kahr trigger from my first shot.

If all I cared about was self defense, I would be ok with the sights. But as we all know, most likely 100% of the rounds I fire from it will be on the range (knock on wood) so I'd rather the sights be on.

I will take your advice though and will fire a few hundred more rounds before contacting Kahr. Thanks.

[garyb]

Your shots look to be low AND a little left. It could be the sights, but Jocko knows his stuff and I'm betting on the problem being the trigger finger if you are a right hander. Before you make a judgement, try using more trigger finger. Use the first joint OR slacken the first joint so your trigger finger pulls back square (so you don't pull left or right). You'll find more written about this on the forum with a good video on Utube. Your trigger control is great because your group is good. But your trigger contact point may be the problem with the loonnnggg Kahr trigger. It makes a difference to get the contact point correct OR get it correct on how you pull that long trigger back with a slack first joint. I experienced the same problem as you describe. I quickly worked on my trigger finger contact point until problem was gone. It was me, not the gun or sights. It did not take long to figure out because my group was good. I understand kahrs are sighted in at 10-15 yrds, so it's hard to believe it is that far off at 7. Possible, yes, it could be the sights or some other problem. But on a new gun...I'd "guess" it is unlikely even if it is possible. You are used to a different trigger and you have good control. Guessing it is "how square" you pull the long trigger back, not control. Let us know how you make out. Good luck.

[jackblack73]

Your shots look to be low AND a little left. It could be the sights, but Jocko knows his stuff and I'm betting on the problem being the trigger finger if you are a right hander. Before you make a judgement, try using more trigger finger. Use the first joint OR slacken the first joint so your trigger finger pulls back square (so you don't pull left or right). You'll find more written about this on the forum with a good video on Utube. Your trigger control is great because your group is good. But your trigger contact point may be the problem with the loonnnggg Kahr trigger. It makes a difference to get the contact point correct OR get it correct on how you pull that long trigger back with a slack first joint. I experienced the same problem as you describe. I quickly worked on my trigger finger contact point until problem was gone. It was me, not the gun or sights. It did not take long to figure out because my group was good. I understand kahrs are sighted in at 10-15 yrds, so it's hard to believe it is that far off at 7. Possible, yes, it could be the sights or some other problem. But on a new gun...I'd "guess" it is unlikely even if it is possible. You are used to a different trigger and you have good control. Guessing it is "how square" you pull the long trigger back, not control. Let us know how you make out. Good luck.

Thanks, I've seen those posts and that video. I'll keep shooting some more. But I'm still puzzled why I was able to shoot the first PM9 so well.

Does the slide of your PM40 shift down when you pull the trigger, like I described above? It's very noticeable on mine, though I'm not sure I could get it to show up on an iPhone video.

[jackblack73]

I was able to capture a video of it. Can anyone please tell me if their PM9 does the same thing?

http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/?action=view&current=Kahr.mp4

[garyb]

I have never seen this, but have heard of it on this forum. I do not remember the outcome, but I know what I would do if my PM40 did this...I would return it to kahr. Something appears to be wrong. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of what might be going on will reply to you. I'd contact Kahr and return it. Hopefully it is under warranty.

[jackblack73]

Thank you garyb. I will contact Kahr and send them the video. It's brand new and definitely still under warranty.

[jfsjr66]

I have a PM 40 that does the same thing, Plaese post what you find out from Kahr. Thanks Jim

[ltxi]

Good Lord! Nice groups. Just be thankful, correct, and get on with your life.

[Replay13]

Hello jackblack73,

I would have to agree with you that your trigger control is about as good as it gets. If you was shooting a 12" or bigger group that was way low... then! lol.

Anyways if I'm looking at it right, at 7 yrds, 21 ft, you have about a one inch group or less. And if your aiming where you can see the square then your sight pattern is the bottom of the square. So that makes your group just about one inch or less low?

As for your video, I have a PM9 that is exactly the same way when dry fired. Also I consider my PM9 to shoot very good for that small of a pistol. Actually mine shoots just a little high at 10 yrds, but not enough for me to mess with. Now my .40 XDM shoots about 3 inches high and 1 inch left at 10 yrds.... I wish it was that close! The best part is they both go bang every time when I pull the trigger!

I hope this helps and good luck with your pistol and have fun shooting,
James (Replay13)

[vnmous1]

Hi all. Noob here. Please allow me to toss in a quick thought or two.

You can shoot great, tight groups and still have a trigger finger issue. Most of the time I see students with too much finger in the trigger and pull it over and down. If your low shots were due to anticipation, they wouldn't be this consistent. Make absolutely sure you have only the pad on the trigger and practice mentally pulling it back directly to your nose.

The groups show good skills. The only way your sights are off is if the front is somehow taller than it's supposed to be. Doubtful.


bj

[jocko]

in watching the video of the fellow shooting the Kahr P380 and his groups showed low and left. they were excellent groups IMO and have no idea how far he was either but his groups resembled jackblack73. I just IMO don't think there is anything wrong with the gun.

I feel kahr will tell you or anyone with what I thought was super groups for a guy who just bought the gun, that u need more rounds down range. My feelings is you need to see alittle more of the front sight, the lefts and rights are back site correctable,but again I would suggest leaving them alone or you willbe moving them alot,until you finally get settled down and get good and comfortable with the gun. Kahr sights their guns at 15 yards with 124 grain ammo but I would bet their sightings settings are bench rest type and they are shooting more or less for testing of reliability. To think you gonna get a dead nuts center of the bulleye gun out of the box, might be just dreaming alittle. They will be close but the finishing is up to the shooter.

In the video it looked to me like that gal shooting that PM9 just threw the magazine on the ground when she got done, she didn't impress me very much..
Now I am not a good shot my m PM9 and when I started shooting it back 4+ years ago. I was moving that rear sight so much to correct MY SHOOTING ERRORS, that after awhile all I had to do was look at the rear sight and it seemed to move itself. Until I finally got consistent with my shooting, be it poor shooting form even, as one can master a poor shooting form, I was moving my sights to much-blaming the gun. I haven't touched my rear sight in a coupleof years. Some days I shoot good, most days my shots are low and right but good enough for me to know it is still my shooting form.
I love my kahrs but they are a hard gun to get used to. Personally I thought jackblack73 groupls were excellent. I know I could certainly adjust a tad to bring those shots up and over. If you have 12" pattern groups at 7 yards then one cannot adjust anything for your just spraying but jackblacks 73 groups I felt were excellent and especialy his first outting

I don't aim this comment at jack blakc either, but I do feel that sometimes we expect mre from these tine guns than WE ARE ABLE TO GIVE IT. I do believe the guns willshoot in the same hole, just the person behind it cannot. In all my time on this forum, I have not seen but maybe a very very few one hold groups at 7 yards.

[garyb]

To recap: It seems to me that jackblack's concern is that the slide on his PM9 drops when dry fired. His concern is not his tight group, nor trigger control. It seems that he is concerned that this slide drop may be contributing to / or somehow associated with his low groups. He demonstrated how his slide drops on the video of importance. I do not believe he was concentrating on the other videos...only the one demonstrating the slide drop. He is sending that particular slide drop video to Kahr to inquire if this is normal or if this is the cause of his low (but tight/excellent) group.

I re-examined my PM40 more closely and found that it has a slight slide drop when dry firing. However, the slide on my PM40 does not drop as much as jackblacks. This makes me question if some PM's slides drop more than others???? Replay commented that the slide on his PM9 also drops like jackblack's when dry firing, but his gun shoots a little high at 10 yrds (not low). I plan to insert some snap caps later today to see if the slide also drops with simulated ammo in it. I am wondering if there is a change with and without ammo...and amd simply conducting this comparision with snap caps installed vs dry fire.

The question posed at this time is - Is it normal for the slide on a PM to drop at the muzzle end when dry firing? This can be seen by looking at the space between the slide and the frame. When the trigger is pulled the muzzle end drops slightly. This issue was posted on previous threads, but I do not remember a conclusion. Any thoughts that will resolve these questions?

Thanks.

[garyb]

Jackblack,
I installed AZoom Snap Caps in my PM40 and found there was ZERO deflection of the slide/barrel when the gun is loaded. This means that when the gun is loaded the slide and barrel are not dropping, as you show in your video. I must conclude that it will be a normal condition for the PM series to experience some slide downward deflection when unloaded, but when loaded the deflection is eliminated. It will be interesting to see if this is the response you will receive from Kahr. Therefore, based on my little test, I do not believe your low group is due to the barrel/slide downward deflection.

This further leads me to believe your gun MAY not be the problem. I suggest you try dry fire practice with a CTL and snap caps to see if you could be consistently pulling down with the trigger. The laser shows where you will hit when your trigger releases. You can clearly see it. You also might want to insert a random snap cap in your mag when you are at the range shooting. This surprise non-fire might demonstrate to you that you could be pulling down at trigger squeeze. Just some practice considerations for you. You seem to be an excellent shot and may simply be doing the same thing consistently. Because you are such a good shot, if you know what you are doing, you are apt to be able to correct it.

I have found that because my vision is not as good as it once was, if I use bifocals I can see the front sight much better. Without bifocals, I can still see the sights, but lack the very finely detailed distinction between dead on and almost. Due to your accuracy this does not "seem" to be your problem. However, the sight plane on the PM is so short that using the CTL helps to demonstrate that even when I "think" the sights are dead on, the CTL shows me that I need minor adjustment of the sight to be "truly" dead on...even with bifocals. It is a great training tool for sight alignment and for practicing the trigger staging and squeeze. The CTL will show you if you move during the final stage of the trigger squeeze. A good tool for dry fire practice, which you can not distinguish as perceptibly during live fire practice.

After you have exhausted these steps and should you still find your shots hitting consistently low (in one tight group), perhaps it is the gun's sights. One solution is that you could simply show a little more front sight to quickly and easily compensate for your low group. I personally hate doing that, but at longer distances it is a must anyway. (I've always liked adjustable sights so I know my sights are dead on. But in this case, with fixed sights for carry, your options may be limited.)

Please let us know what you discover. Tx.

[jackblack73]

That's the issue exactly garyb. First I want to find out if the slide movement is normal. If it is, then I know that the problem is something else. If it's not normal, then I won't go changing my shooting style for a defective gun. I'm simply trying to fix the real problem rather than make compensations. I did a search on this site and others have reported the same slide movement, so I suspect Kahr will tell me it's within tolerances. I haven't contacted them yet.

I was reluctant to blame my own shooting because I did shoot another PM9 and was dead on balls accurate. But as I said, I'll put a few hundred more rounds down range with it, checking my stance, grip, etc., before deciding what I need to do.

A couple differences I didn't mention earlier are that the rental gun had the old style slide (I have the new one) and night sights (I don't). If both are sighted in correctly that shouldn't make a difference, but maybe the night sights have a lower front sight or something.

Anyway, I'm just going to shoot it more for now. I'll be reluctant to send it in to Kahr because so far it's been very reliable.

Thanks for all the opinions.

[Tat2dman]

Mine does the same but shoots dead on @ 7 & 10 yards...

[garyb]

Well, at least now we know the slide does NOT deflect downward during trigger pull when it IS loaded. I suspect you will hear that the slide movement is normal when the gun is NOT loaded. It matters more that it is NOT moving down when it IS loaded. So I don't think the slide movement will end up being your problem. I guess it still could be your sights...or just some adjustments as discussed. Good luck.

[jocko]

Here is what I found on my PM9 which has many thousands of rounds through it. If the front of the slide is pushed down, it kinda stays there and when I pull the trigger it will move upward just a tad. It can only move the distance between what the front two rails in the dust cover allows and the front grooves in the slide allows. There just has to be some play with those two or the slide would never work. . I would bet if most would unload the gun and then rack the slide like it is loaded and push down on the front of the slide it will stay pretty much there and then slowly pull the trigger and watch the front of the slide raise a tad as the slide and rails are now stopping it from going any further.

\Not trying to be the devils advocate here either but I know what kahr is going to tell you, "It is normal" The rental gun and the one you have now other than that extension are identical in design, and that extra 1/4" never even comes into play until the "bang" thing happens then the slide retracts on the front slide rails in the dust cover.

Your sights are the same as on all kahrs. They to my knowledge only have one height of sights. Not everyone sees the same sight picutre. If I may speak without condemming you, I would advise trying to shoot POA (point of aim_) The front sight is your friend, remember that. That is what you should see clearly and the back sight and target will fall into place.( your eyes cannot focus clearly on all 3, just can't be done) You will be much faster with POA shooting especally under 10 yards, In a tense scenario, I seriously doubt if your gonna take time to really aim like you would a target handgun on a stationary target. Get good at what this gun was desinged for and that is close up personal defense. You have a short barreled, short sight plain gun with marginal grip compared to like the P9's or the KP 9. You will amaze your self as to how accurate you can get with POA shooting..

That is also why some shoot the extened magazine on the pM series alittle better than the flush grip I. E. more to hang a finger around.

[joshh]

have someone else shoot it and see if they have similar results. a guy @ my club has a sig that was way off & had to be sent back for service. if i remember correctly they told him the barrel wasnt seating properly with the frame and swapped it out. good luck.

[garyb]

I kind of see what jackblack is trying to accomplish because I do the same thing. I am trying to see where the sights are accurate and where I need to make adjustments to compensate. Jocko is absolutely correct in that the PM is a short gun and in a "self defense" situation sight alaignment goes out the window. However, when I'm at the range, I am also practicing "target shooting", using the sights carefully and not just point shooting. Because I use a CTL, my "self defense" point shooting is with a laser dot on the target. I point a dot amazingly fast. I understand what Jocko is eluding to and I may or may not have the where with all to point that dot in an actual "self defense" situation. I may end up point shooting as Jocko is saying. I understand. However, "target shooting" is a different creature. When we target shoot we tend to push our personal limits with the limits of the gun. We work on accuracy with that weapon to see what accuracy can be accomplished at various distances. It is simply a different game than preparation for self defense. As such, we want our sights to be where the bullet is going. When that does not happen, we try to figure out why so we can fix it. After seeing how well jackblack is shooting, I am confident he will sort things out, or if he is anything like me, that gun will be for sale.

I was lucky with my PM40. The sights line up with both the laser and the bullet out to 15+ yards. The self defense distance is well within that. I am still working on the longer distances for "target shooting" purposes and I will make progress over time. However, for "self defense" purposes, I am golden with my sweet shooting PM40. I consider self defense shooting and target shooting two different purposes of shooting with both helping with gun handling. I am getting ready for IDPA, which is a "sport/game/competition" that kind of a combines both "self defense" and "target shooting". It is a great sport to develop one's gun handling skills. But then again, so is dry fire practice, especially with the laser. I'm done rambling for now...haha.

[jackblack73]

I stumbled upon this Guns & Ammo review of the PM9. The author's gun was also shooting low. About 4 inches at 10 yards.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/kahr-pm9193

[deadhead1971]

Typical of a right-handed shooter....

Here is a thread I started way back. First time shooting the Kahr pm9, I was hitting 2 to 3" left. I was jerking the trigger without realizing it. The photos at the beginning of the thread show this. As time went on, you will see the shots get better. I have not adjusted my sights or aim. I have tried to do better with the trigger finger. When I first got the 380 LCP too, I was hitting low and left. But now I can hit dead on.

I don't think the sights are off.

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=444&highlight=accuracy

[deadhead1971]

Last thing. Look at this.

http://www.bobtuley.com/sight_picture.htm

I have found that you need to use a "center hold" with the Kahr--NOT 6 o'clock hold. Use a 6 oclock hold, and your shots WILL be low.

[garyb]

That could explain some things deadhead. I've always used a center hold for everything I shoot. I put the sights dead on what I am shooting at and hate to aim low or high. Good point.

[doctorxring]

.

If you took a video of my PM9 dry fire you would see
the EXACT same thing. I wondered a bit about
it myself. But after firing it today at the range,
she seems to be hitting well -- This is the first
5 rounds out of my new PM9 -- six o'clock hold
on this 3 inch spot --


http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/PM91stGroup.jpg




I was able to capture a video of it. Can anyone please tell me if their PM9 does the same thing?

http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/?action=view&current=Kahr.mp4

[Replay13]

Nice, yours is about a inch high like mine. But I can't complain about the group size from these little pistols!
Welcome and enjoy your PM9

[jocko]

Last thing. Look at this.

http://www.bobtuley.com/sight_picture.htm

I have found that you need to use a "center hold" with the Kahr--NOT 6 o'clock hold. Use a 6 oclock hold, and your shots WILL be low.

agree, those two holds are certainly goingto give different groups. I cover the target with my PM9..

[wyntrout]

Dang! Do you have a time machine? Jumped a year into the future! :D

My Kahrs, the PMs and P380 seem to shoot to point of aim IF I do my part, but in rapid fire the POI shifts down and left a bit as I get sloppy. I point at the middle of the bullseye and keep both eyes open.

I found that I had to use my left eye when firing with my left hand because the recoil was weird... twisting to the right if I tried to use my right eye for aiming. I hope that my life never depends on shooting left-handed! I need to practice more single-handed and left-handed shooting with one or two hands. The first time I tried left two-handed shooting with my PM45, I got slide bite to the right hand on the first shot. :eek:

Wynn:D

[jocko]

wyn: I feel your pain, I am exactly the same way in trying to shoot right handed. I feel like a girl the way I grip and hold and shoot the gun. My right arm I think god just put it there to balance me out, as I am very poor with anythng in my right hand. I do little practiceing right handed.i know I probably shout but at my age things are not going to change and I will just make do..