MK9 still having extraction issues at 600 rounds.

[DasFriek]

I know most of you will say send it into Kahr, But id like to fix this myself if possible if possible. Out of 150 rounds i had ircc 5 jams.
Before when i used stock recoil spring setup it was stovepipes.
Now with the Wolff steel recoil setup and extra power springs its leaving the expended case flat on top of the newly half chambered round most times.
Both springs usually send the last round in the mag into my forehead, One even went down my shirt today.
Most rounds don't go far no matter which spring is used and they mainly go rearward over my head.

Will Kahr pay for shipping to them for adjustments?

If not i most likely ill be doing it myself, So if anyone has any info on extractor adjustment and ejector adjustments and alignments and angles it would be appreciated.
I know most will say its crazy to work on a gun that has a warranty, But i say its crazy to pay $50 to ship a gun for adjustments that may take 100 rounds of ammo threw it to get it correct when most may only test it with 10 rounds and then ship it back.
But ill decide more after i hear from you guys and do a close inspection later.

[jocko]

Das Friek

PM sent. I think it is time for the gun to go back...

[kramm]

Jocko is right, with 600 rounds and still having issues .

[MikeyKahr]

...it's time for a return trip to the mothership.

[robmcd]

Have your FFL Dealer ship it back to Kahr. Dealers do not have to ship by overnight, so it will cost you far less.

[Moby Clarke]

Have your FFL Dealer ship it back to Kahr. Dealers do not have to ship by overnight, so it will cost you far less.

I thought Kahr paid for shippping both ways, no?

[DasFriek]

I was too mentally beat tonight to go over the gun, But i will in the morning and give Kahr a call. My main concern is paying the shipping as money really is an issue at this time of the month as i only get paid once a month.

Ive checked with local shops and iirc $45 was my best deal, But i never called the place i bought this one from as its a new local shop i just started dealing with.

jocko- Ill send you a pm back also.

Im generally against shipping guns back to a maker unless its a cracked frame or slide and worse.
As ive said alot recently im alot better at working with steel than wood, And if miner adjustments is all it needs and im pretty sure thats all it is im most likely better off doing that.
But only if i can find some info and help here and on the net.

I dont know much about the fine details of how the Kahrs work as no 2 guns work exactly alike. But here is my initial ideas.

Extractor may be overly tight as spring weights have no affect on how far the brass is thrown from what i can tell. That tells me the tension is too high. No feeding issue are going on so the extractor shape is fine.

The ejector is the main issue imo. And i have very little experience tuning them.
If its perfectly aligned then the shape on the tip is off as thats why the brass is going over my head and not angled off to the side.
I also cant tell about height, But its almost like the brass is getting pushed up over the ejector by the next round in the mag making the empty case stovepipe or now lay down on top of the new half chambered round.
What proves that is the last round hitting me in the forehead each time as the empty case is not being pushed up by a new round in the mag but rather by the follower which isnt as tall as a live round. Ive not had a failure on the last round.

Most of that is just observations and no perfect analysis as thats hard to do without physical evidence of scratch marks and wear which is easy to read.
I hate having my guns away, One reason i never send them back. It took 8 weeks to get my 1911 back after a refinish and i about felt like a kid waiting on Christmas. But i will say this gun is my bug and range gun so not having it for a few weeks wont bother my CCW plans but still i wont be enjoying having it gone.


(Edit for update)
Since i couldn't sleep tonight from sleeping all evening i decided to look up some info here on the forums and also do an inspection of the gun.
Ive found two things which could be issues.
1. The ejector shouldn't move much from what ive read, Left and right is kinda ok. But its not supposed to move up and down and mine does both and its worse up and down.
2. The extractor is not overly tight when loading a round as the round is centered over the firing pin hole.
But on extraction the round is pulled out alot lower and the top of the rounds rim just barely covers the firing pin hole.
In that position upon extraction there is very little tension and not much of the extractor is holding the rim.
Ive not fully tested this multiple times to prove this could be an issue or not.

[DasFriek]

Im sorry if you keep seeing these walls of text, But i like to document things and try and get help by being as descriptive as possible so people can help when they aren't looking at the parts in front of them like i am.

After speaking with jocko im rather discouraged about sending the gun back into Kahr. First off i don't like being pushy about making them pay the shipping and im not in the best shape to pay for it right now anyhow.
Secondly, Just how are they gonna diagnose a gun that seems to only have one failure every 100 rounds, But it tends to start at 100 and get worse as i approach 200.
They aren't gonna let a gunsmith shoot my gun for an hour just to see if it will jam.

Speaking with jocko also tells me and i agree most wont touch a gun with 1 failure in 100 rounds. Now if this was my main carry gun id be upset and pushing Kahr hard to have it looked at and fixed. But this is just my bug and its usually good to go for the first 100 rounds.
jocko also mentioned shooter induced failures being the culprit and i don't have anyone to help me there, But even yesterday i made it a point to lock my wrists and not have any limp wristing as at times i pay more attention to trigger pull and don't worry about limp wristing.

Now ive said that i have some news on further diagnosing the gun myself.
I stayed up until 6am looking at how the gun interacts with all its parts as it moves threw its motions.
1. The ejector despite moving a bit more than id call acceptable isnt the issue.
It happens before the round touches this part.

I took the recoil spring out of the gun so i could manually manipulate the gun by hand and watch it how it works. I found 2 issues and both could be working together to make the issue happen.

2. The empty case as it is extracted rides low on the extractor as its rim just barely covers the firing pin hole. Riding this low the extractor has very little to almost no tension on the case. It may need replacing or some profiling and some tension taken off the extractor to let the case move further higher into the extractor. As it stands now i can even shake an empty round loose where its being held out now.
Why it gets pulled out of the chamber so low on the breech face is a mystery to me. The extractor on my gun is rather darn stiff, So much so even with a screw driver it takes quite a bit of force to move it. And with a live round is being held just before its inserted into the chamber when the round is centered over the firing pin that round is so locked in tight it has to be the hardest tension ive ever seen on a gun in that position.

3. This is where the bad action happens. The loose and low riding case is dragged over the next round in the mag and catches on the next rounds case edge and pulls it loose prematurely before the case ever reaches the ejector.

I will be doing more testing today with empty brass and see what can be done to stop whats going on.
I don't feel its the mags fault the top round is at an angle that will snag the empty case as internally when everything is in place the mag seems to hold the round like it should.

So as it stand ill be focused on the extractor and its tension and cleaning it up a bit if i find any odd burrs where there shouldn't be any.

Ill still talk to Kahr, But i don't expect much when dealing with such a low amount of jams per rounds shot.

[jocko]

I thought Kahr paid for shippping both ways, no?

all the time.

[jocko]

A poster by the name of Jim K on this fourm worked on his extractor and did some mods that worked for him. You might touch bases with him. The ejector can move upward and sideways on your gun also.

[DasFriek]

Ill do some searches for his info and contact him if i cant find it.
Im rather sure the ejector isn't the issue, That last round always pegging me in the forehead tends to make me believe the magazines follower is what the case hits and sends it straight back at me.
Thats another reason i feel the empty cases are being ejected by the next rounds case lip catching the very low and weakly held case.
It doesn't do that every time as the next round has to be in the perfect position for it to happen, But as i said the last round ALWAYS hitting me in the head means the case is low and being held weakly and never touches the ejector sending the round off at an angle like the cases are supposed to.

I tested it with both mags and different ammo with the same result.
I didn't take the extractor out yet, But i could see some uneven wear. Ill also be looking at the extractor tension. With mine being so high i think thats why it may have worn unevenly and isn't allowing the case to slide up the breech face more upon the extraction cycle.

I got a big dinner to work on tonight but ill be inside the gun with the extractor out and be testing with empty cases.

[DasFriek]

I could have saved myself alot of time doing diagnosis testing had i just took the slide down, But without the testing i would have known to look at the extractor in particular.
I had a hard time getting pics as you all know shiny stuff is hard to photograph.
But the extractor is worn, Jagged and beaten, And thin at the bottom where it needs meat to help retain the empty case.

Ill call or email Kahr both, Which ever gets me threw faster on Monday and see if i can get a replacement sent to me. Ill email the pics as usually thats enough for most companies.
If they wont do that ill just buy the extractor.
$15 +$10 shipping is cheaper then shipping in the gun.

I also cleaned up the old extractor with a small file and then sandpaper to finish it. Since so much material was thin and missing and i removed more to add meat to where i needed it i cut into the extractors depth adjustment area to allow the new metal to set closer to the firing pin hole.
Its kind of hard to explain, But if you been there you know what im talking about. I didnt take no finished pics of the extractor as i was just glad to be done for now and finished cleaning the gun.

Im pretty sure the extractor tension being set too high from the factory caused this to beat the extractor into an early death as my first 150 rounds were flawless. But now the spring is worn in the tension is about right so once i get the new extractor ill just need to replace it.

BTW jocko i found that thread and it was very insightful to the not so good QC testing of the tension on the extractor from the factory. Ive had one do this on a new 1911 i bought and it killed that extractor at 500 rounds also.
But it didn't have enough tension, So it goes both ways. And until you learn the gun if found it best to wait for issues to happen than to look for them ahead of time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/Pictures/DSC00480.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/Pictures/DSC00483.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/Pictures/DSC00484.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/Pictures/DSC00490.jpg

[DasFriek]

Do you guys feel im wrong in asking Kahr to just send me the part and try and save time and money? I know most wouldn't feel comfortable doing this themselves, But its work i enjoy and actually decent at.

Do the pics show enough damage and wear to justify it also?
Im just hoping i can get threw to the warranty dept as ive found the phone system to be over loaded the last time i called about my out of stock grips, But Email was replied too in 8 minutes which is very fast.
Should i just buy the parts myself and most likley get them faster as with shipping it shouldnt be over $25 total?
I guess im just asking what you guys would do at this point.

[jocko]

can't loose anything by asking them. last resort is to send the gun back,u seem gun savvy , so I would say go for it...

[DasFriek]

I just got off the phone with their warranty dept which was a painless 5 second wait on hold. I spoke with a guy named Jay and he advised i send the gun in for repair.
But i told him the issue would be hard to replicate and that i was more than qualified to make the repair myself and save Kahr and myself alot of time and money to just send me the parts.
He still seemed persistent i send the gun in, Which i understand many yahoo's can make a simple issue into a major mess. So i told him id send pics in of the extractor and he could decide if he would send me the parts or not.

If not ill just order them as im not shipping the gun in for something so simple.
I did request they send both pins and spring with the extractor so i can start over with all new parts and make sure its at the right tension this time.

Ive done this with CZ before and they were happy to just send me the part rather than go the sending in for repair route.

Ill post back what happens next.

Hopefully i don't sound like a know it all, Im not and had to do a bit of digging for as much info as possible to know what i was doing and what was the right tension on the extractor and how to adjust it. Its once i have the knowledge im not afraid to do it.

[DasFriek]

They are insisting i send the gun in after they showed the pics to their gunsmith.
But i told them there is nothing to see as i have cleaned the extractors edges and adjusted its depth to have it fully functioing until i can get a replacement and all they will find is that even after 600 rounds the extractor tension is now what it should be after being overly tight from the factory.

They want to send a prepaid FedeX label but i told them they could go ahead and do that if they insist on me sending the gun in, But i would be deciding if ill do that or just order the parts off the site and do it myself.

I also apologized for being hard headed as i dont like people touching my guns.

[jocko]

Just go ahead and order the parts, ur savvy enough to do it yourself, not like that cost is going to break you. If all else fails then send it back with the original part in it,unmolested by you. Jay was the right person to talk to and most of the kahr people are at the shot show in vegas to. I agree with you, if it is hard to duplicate, u can't expect kahrt to fire 500 rounds to get one time thing, so u best attack this yourself and then keep us posted to... I think when Jim K did his mod work in his kahr, he shortened the extractor pins, never the springs...

[jocko]

They are insisting i send the gun in after they showed the pics to their gunsmith.
But i told them there is nothing to see as i have cleaned the extractors edges and adjusted its depth to have it fully functioing until i can get a replacement and all they will find is that even after 600 rounds the extractor tension is now what it should be after being overly tight from the factory.

They want to send a prepaid FedeX label but i told them they could go ahead and do that if they insist on me sending the gun in, But i would be deciding if ill do that or just order the parts off the site and do it myself.

I also apologized for being hard headed as i dont like people touching my guns.

go ahead and get the prepaid fed x label and have it there jus tin case your work doesn't solve the issue. Don't pass up a good thing from kahr.

[DasFriek]

Oh i know, Thats why i told them to go ahead and send the label if they wont shop the parts. JimK was they reason i made sure to request they send new pins and spring so i could adjust the pins for tension.

The main problem with sending the gun in and it being a waste of everyones time is i already re-profiled the extractor and adjusted its depth to compensate for the messed up steel i had to remove in cleaning up the bad metal.
I told Jay all they would see is what the extractor tension is now after 600 rounds which is about right now, But that shows it was was too high from the factory as tension drops from use.
Buying all the parts and shipping is $35 so im not sending my gun out for 6-8 weeks when it works perfectly fine now since my work but it does need new replacement parts as i dont feel comfy with once worn out parts in a ccw gun even if i did repair them great. New parts is always the best route, My life is worth more than $35 some days.

[DasFriek]

Dear Mr. XXXXX,
I am sorry you are having an issue with your
firearm. I have obtained an RMA number so that you may send it in for
service. Your RMA number is: XXXXXX. Please send the firearm, your magazines,
and a brief note detailing your issues to us at your convenience. I will be
emailing you a prepaid label within the hour. If you have any other
questions please feel free to email or call us at any time.
sincerely,
XXX

Seems they don't want to send me the parts and want the gun, But im gonna take a nap and think it over. But im rather sure ill just be ordering the parts and putting them in myself.
Kahr is doing the right thing and even willing to pay all shipping so im not holding this against them, Im the one hard headed who wants to do his own work and not have my gun gone for maybe 1-2 months.


My reply:


Hi XXX,
I will be thinking this over as to sending the gun in, As i said i much prefer to do my own work.
Kahr is doing a great job tho and doing well in offering to pay shipping and fix the gun so i dont hold this against you.
But can you do me one favor.
The parts i listed a few emails back can you check to see if they all are in stock in case i decide to just buy them myself?
Thanks,
Don

[jocko]

It won't be gone more than one week, never read of any kahrs taking even a month. If they don't want to give you the parts, then buy um, they are willing to pay 5X the cost of those parts to have the gun back so that they can review it.

If u much prefer to do you own work, then u best pay the price and get the parts and attack the issue. Not to say u don't have a handle on this issue either but sometimes we can fix something that maybe doesn't need fixed but in doing so accomplshs ur goal to. It might be more than the extractor causing your issue to. Slide could be out of spec, extractor channel could be all screwed up. The worst you can do is ruin one extractor and pin and be out a few bucks....

[DasFriek]

I went ahead and ordered the parts, Mainly due to the fact i felt i couldn't send in a gun that even tho the extractor wore out i had cleaned it up and adjusted it and couldn't prove besides the hard to see pictures that it was not caused by me.

That would explain all the brass shavings i started seeing at round 150 when the once in a while stovepipes would happen.

(Edit) Id just like to say that i was on hold for 5 seconds waiting on the repair dept and then when we went to emails responses were almost immediate.
Even tho i couldn't get Kahr to ship me the parts and let me do the work myself, They did do the best thing most people could hope for is to offer prepaid shipping and i didn't even ask for it.
They may think im odd they still treated me nice and checked if the needed parts were in stock for my MK9.

Bawanna lives for wood, I live for steel and days like this.
And trust me ive destroyed many perfectly good parts in the learning process which ill always be in when it comes to guns.
Heck, It took me 3 hours of diagnosing before i nailed it down to the extractor and then verified it when i took the slide apart.

Kahr advised me several times to not open the slide and touch ANYTHING, lol little late for that folks.
Hopefully this will end good as i plan on useing the worn spring for the extractor since its broken in and the tension it produces after 600 rounds feels perfect from my research. But i ordered a new spring and the 2 pins just in case anyhow.

If i still have issues after this, Then i will contact kahr and tell them i replaced the extractor and im still having issues and not mess with the one in the gun at the time. That way they can see exactly whats NOT working. As it stands after the file work i just did the gun should run perfect, But i only want new parts in a ccw gun and not one i had to repair.

And thanks jocko for all the help and advice and encouragement, Im hard headed and obsessive at times so thanks for putting up with that.
Don

[DasFriek]

Hopefully a short and sweet post.
I got my new parts in from Kahr that i paid for since i didn't want to send the gun in, Kudos too Kahr for wanting to pay shipping both ways and fix the gun.

I did figure one thing out that should give me early warning of issues happening.
Right before i stopped and took the old extractor out it was beat and worn of course, But it also had alot less brass shavings in the slide.
Ive had alot of brass shavings in my slide after every range day since day one, It looked like Goldshlager Schnapps had been pored over the slide.

I order and used a new extractor,spring and the two pins, But i also fit the extractor. It may need more fine tuning later but ill be inspecting it over the next 500 rounds.
Fitting consisted of me just adjusting the depth the extractor fits down in the slide and cleaned up the rounds corners that had sharp edges.
That helps get more meat of the extractor on the round.
Tension didn't need adjusting imo.
And the last step i didn't adjust and its where i think the old one was not right.
That is adjusting it so the claw is opened up more and moved towards the chamber, I think thats why i was getting the shaving previously as the claw was too close to the breach face and ripping the brass rims to pieces while being overly tight.

Hand cycling is perfect and even good enough to slowly hand chamber rounds which is a good sign.

If this don't work i may be the first person to custom fit a 1911 extractor into a kahr! lol
Anyhow next range day is set for Tuesday next week so ill definetly have a range report.

[DasFriek]

I took the newly reworked and fluffed MK9 to the range for testing of the new extractor and tension system.
In the first 20 rounds i had two extraction jams that the spent case didn't get out of the way fast enough and the slide was held open with the spent case while a half chambered round was below. I looked at the first 50 rounds as break in rounds anyhow.

During those initial 20 rounds i also inspected the striker channel and the bottom of the slide for brass shavings which i now know was a bad sign that the extractor isn't right as that happened all the way up to the time the old extractor was beat up and peened.
I found 2 slivers in those 20 rounds.

The next 200 round went perfectly with no jams and no brass shavings that i could see while the slide was back and in the striker channel.
I tried 5 different ammo's and one being +p with great success.
Then i shot one handed and even purposely limp wristed it and it was still flawless.

Ill be doing an inspection tonight for any shavings and any bad looking spots on the extractor.
While Kahr did everything they could have to help satisfy me, Im glad i spent the $40 in parts and shipping and done it myself.
I learned alot and had my gun the whole time. Plus now i know how the extractor works and how to adjust it in tension, Depth and claw gap.
To learn all that was worth $40 imo.