Ammo Taylored To Micro Compacts [Archive]

Tilos

01-15-2011, 10:18 AM

I think it's mostly marketing.

This has become common in marketing of any product.
A for instance would be, Tylenol, made as T sinus, T pm, T arthritis, T times release, etc.
So now instead of one bottle of Tylenol in your medicine cab you have 4 5 or 6.
With the FDA actually checking this stuff is formulated differently, it's still a money maker for J&J.

Now ammo such as this, without any FDA or ammo police, could simply be a different box!!
So you need short barrel ammo, regular carry ammo, practice ammo, etc.
Many boxes of "different" ammo for different guns/situations.
Hornady sells more and is happy.

One company makes both slow cookers and microwaves and convinces us we need both...marketing.

How many have a George Foreman grill gathering dust somewhere in the kitchen...did you buy the 2nd generation too?
You know it's better because marketing told us so.

just sayin'
Tilos

ripley16

01-15-2011, 11:37 AM

I think it's mostly marketing.

In the case of the Speer it is different powder. The short barrel ammo is noticably different than their regular Gold Dot. The marketing part comes in by recognising the huge numbers of people buying small guns and developing a more suitable product. I applaud the change.

wyntrout

01-15-2011, 11:42 AM

Speer short barrel... testing for ballistics; 124-gr 9mm uses 3.5" barrel and the .45 ACP 4" barrel. I do use the 9mm +P version in my PM9 and the Double Tap GD +P (125 or 124 grain) in my K9. The DT GD is no longer available... last time I checked.
I wonder if 3" barrels do the SB version justice... penetration, expansion, and ballistics.
They make a .22 magnum SB now.

Wynn :)

Crusty

01-15-2011, 12:15 PM

Tilos, to some extent, I agree with you. But with ammo, any reloader knows there is a lot of tweaking that can be done for ballistics. Mainly bullet weight/shape and powder. And yes, barrel length makes a big difference. But in the end, the advertising can be quite swaying. So often times it all comes down to personal experience/choice. After doing a lot of reading and on-line searching, I liked the Critical defense and Winchester Ranger (LE) for my P380. Both function well except the Rangers don't like to feed as first out of the mag. So, I load one in the pipe with 3 Criticals at the top of the mag and 3 more Rangers in the bottom. Hopefully I never find out if I made the right/wrong choice. But I'm comfortable with it.
For my Para Carry .45, I've been using Winchester PDX just because they came with it when I bought it used. Not as concerned about the .45. Being hit by a freight train, you don't really worry about the color.

jocko

01-15-2011, 12:18 PM

But in the end, the advertising can be quite swaying

truer words have never been spoken..... I just don't think a round is going toknow any difference in a 3.5" bbl vs a 4" bbl!

earle8888

01-15-2011, 02:48 PM

Anybody on line have a Crono and the desire to fire some different ammo, short not so short an record data. Could be interesting! Volocity counts!

jocko

01-15-2011, 04:40 PM

now that is cool , I just signed up and fired my ******** oops I seem to have lost you??

Tilos

01-15-2011, 04:43 PM

Yes, I stepped into some stuff when I 1st came here by challenging all BS about trigger "feel".
You know the usual stuff..this feels longer than that, one at the gun store felt like this, yada, yada.
All I asked was for the people making these claims to measure the pull weight/pull length and wow that hit a nerve.

Simple things like: lay the gun on a piece of paper, and use a pencil to dry fire it. length of pencil line equals length of pull, simple enough.
You would have thought I asked to look at their W-2 or something.
I got things like, "I don't have a pull gage but I KNOW gun A is lighter/shorter than gun B".

As earl8888 said, A chrono test would be the answer on this ammo.
Anything else is just bovine scat.

jocko

01-15-2011, 04:52 PM

tilos ur probalby right, Until we actually know how kahr measures their trigger travel, anything my testing done,, our yours could be different even theough they are exactly the same trigger systems. Just not sure how exact a science this is. I am sure from the internal measurments of the trigger bar, location of the trigger hole ect, that their math people could on paper tell us exactly how they arrived at this 3/8" or 1/2" trigger pull, over any trigger gauge, which at best is close but an 1/8" here or there would be hard to eliminate.

Naturally to some exact triggers due to trigger sprngs, striker springs can also be off. When kahr stares their trigger poundage is around 6-7.5# that in itself tells me that springs are not deadnuts on target. To most people this should really mean nadda, but like u stated, some people post to start an argument...
My J key is much harder to push thanmy N key. I have written to Dell to see what their specs are but so far they have not replied back. Those bustards are playing with my mind, I know they are, so I have forwarded this on to Bawanna, who I know as ourmoderator willget to the bottom of this. I think for sur ethe poundage onmy J key in relation to my N key is way off. Myw ifes keyboard is not like that and it is the same????

Tilos

01-15-2011, 05:39 PM

Oh no, not again:eek:

That pencil test is accurate within a few .001 of and inch...try it.
Measure the line with a dial/digital caliper.
Simple enough for the doubters to measure THIER guns pull length.
It would take mear minutes to do it 10 times, then average the results.
This would END and answer ALL the "is mine an elite trigger?"...measure it and here's how.

Tilos

Tilos

01-15-2011, 06:16 PM

Bawanna

01-15-2011, 06:22 PM

I'm waiting for a response from the CEO of Dell. My J and N keys are different than the ones I tried in the store too. He might not care about mine since it's a HP but never hurts to ask.

Tilos, I'm gonna try the paper/pencil trick. Never thought of that, so I'll add it to the list of things I never thought of.

By the way I loved your suggestion to Old Lincoln on measuring 10 powder charges an going for an average. I constantly fight that .01 grain charge thing all the time.

You got some first class ideas stored in that head of yours.

ripley16

01-15-2011, 06:47 PM

Anybody on line have a Crono and the desire to fire some different ammo, short not so short an record data. Could be interesting! Volocity counts!

Speer claims 1150 fps at the muzzle for the SB Gold Dot. That's pretty fast for a 3.5" barrel, 154 gr. bullet.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23611

The SBGD clocks in at 1039 fps at the 50 yard mark... still humming along. That compares very well to Winchester PDX1 moving along at 1095 fps at 50 yards.

The only reason I don't use the SBGD in my P9 is that I don't shoot it as well as the Hornady TAP or the PDX1. Otherwise Gold Dot is on my short list of best ammo to carry.

Bawanna

01-15-2011, 07:18 PM

I've done some research into this and today read, on another forum, about some further testing Speer had done independently, of it's short barrel ammo.
It seems thru testing, Speer found that heavy winter clothing affects the expansion of it's new short barrel ammo.
Speer will be revising the bullet design and start production of short barrel ammo for use in cold weather.

I'm kidding...I'll shut up now.
Tilos

Tilos, I was absorbing your scientific presentation and since I already had my brain warmed up and had taken a couple advil I was giving it some serious thought when I arrived at this very important question that has plagued me for some time.

Do you pronounce you name tilos like TEA LOS, or tilos like TIE LOS? Always been kind of curious.

Tilos

01-16-2011, 05:55 AM

Mr.B
WoW, now I know I'll never get accused of thread drift.

Tilos is a compilation of 2 words related to a different hobby and not anything ethnic.
It's like "Tea Lowes" but some see it and think a**hole!!!!
just sayin'
Tilos

johnh

01-16-2011, 10:30 AM

I hate to sound contrary, but I started carrying cheaper JHPs that I could afford to shoot in bulk--at least on my guns I want to shoot a lot. Just to have some consistency between practice and what I carry. I tend to think that since anything I shoot will likely get shot at least twice, and probably a at least seven or eight times ;), the performance of each individual shot is not as vital. However, I do carry more expensive ammo in my K9 just because I have some extra TAP and Hydrashocks. If I could afford to shoot piles of high quality defensive ammo, I would probably carry that in everything.

ripley16

01-16-2011, 10:50 AM

Just to have some consistency ...

That's the reason I like to practice with either of two rounds, yet carry the expensive ammo. Both Speer Lawman and NATO ball ammo closely replicate the recoil, "feel" and accuracy that I get out of my carry ammo. I shoot something like a 10:1 ratio of cheaper priced to expensive ammo. The practice ammo is 1/3 to 1/4 cheaper than carry ammo prices and thank goodness, or my range time would be even more limited than it is.

garyb

01-16-2011, 12:32 PM

I know it is disputable how Corbon worded it in their communication to me, but they actually used a Kahr PM40 to design their DPX 140gr ammo. I'd have to say they were designing an ammo for the micro compact in 40cal. I am not shooting the Corbon 40 DPX yet, but do have plans to try it this year. Just throwing my 2 cents in here. I believe this is a good ammo and everyone that use it seem to endorse it. I'd recommend at least looking at their site.

earle8888

01-16-2011, 02:21 PM

johnh--- As I stated awhile back in a post. It is the best to practice with same ammo as you carry.
A while back, I made the decision to have PM40 as my carry--not too big BUT big enough---that said--I committed to practicing with the expensive stuff. Many $1 round, thus app.$50 a month, minimum, shooting other handguns less or with handloads with cheap bullets. Believe that I would be better off wasting money on ammo because I didn't need it for protection, that to have a less than ideal out come and question myself if I had used the expensive stuff the out come would have been different!

100percent

01-19-2011, 07:14 AM

I don't shoot much factory ammo so I haven't used anything special. I have shot 155 180 and 200 grain hand loads from my Kahr PM40 and find they all shoot to point of aim out to at least 40' if I keep the loads to within .1-.2 grains of book max. I have other snub barreled guns that almost demand a particular ammo.

jocko

01-19-2011, 08:20 AM

can't disagree with John H or earle8888 on this ammo thing, but for me I shoot my PM9 probably 5X more than most ever will and to shoot defense stuff 234/7 is not feasable as far as my wallet is concerned. I shoot out my defense magazine alotat the range and start anew, but it has been ages since I have went to the range with a 100 or even 50 rounds of high dollar defense stuff, just to punch paper. At 7 yards, I see really no diffenrece in wwb fmj over my corbon ammo, Maybe magna porting helps that to, I can't say, but cut wise I shoot far more than one who just shoots high dollar ammo, so I kinda think there is a trae off there somewhere.. I also tend to buy defense ammo as I see it on sale to, so nothing says that my corbon 125 hp that is in my PM9 today willbe3 used two months from now, as Ia m found of gold dots, power ball and corbon...For me at 7 yards if every round goes bang and is clsoe to where I am pointing, ol jocko goes home witha smile on his face,

ripley16

01-19-2011, 08:31 AM

...is not feasable as far as my wallet is concerned.
Amen to that. The cost of even practice ammo has caused me to drop my annual ammo usage from a past level of 6-8000 per year, down to a little over 2000 rounds. It just costs to much to shoot 100% carry ammo.

jocko

01-19-2011, 09:28 AM

I hate it when winter hits our area, as I tend to just not go out to the outdoor range and fight the weather just to hear it go bang. I miss. so I guess I willjust stay home and "bang" something else.

ripley16

01-19-2011, 09:37 AM

Ahhhh... the other short barrel.

jocko

01-19-2011, 09:53 AM

Ahhhh... the other short barrel.

at my age I tend to shoot "lighter" loads to.

ripley16

01-19-2011, 09:59 AM

Be happy the hammer falls and the powder burns.;)

joshh

01-19-2011, 10:02 AM

for 9mm: i read from an article and was confirmed by a winchester rep that a 147gr performs best overall in close (less than 25') situations when fired from a short barrel pistol. thats what i carry but i shoot 119gr federals at the range. they shoot almost the same, the recoil is similar and targeting is same at close range.

wyntrout

01-19-2011, 10:59 AM

Hey guys! I was just looking up the Ballistics by the Inch for .45 ACP and noticed that there is a .380 ACP Part Deux that was added August 2010. It includes most of the popular new .380's, Kahr, LCP, Diamondback, P238, etc., AND, SOME of the ammo that you might be considering... worth a look:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto2010.html

Check out the muzzle energy comparison chart... great:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/380auto2010.html

The Buffalo Bore leads the pack... the 90-gr. on top, followed by the 95-gr.

Wynn :yo:

smokey337

01-19-2011, 08:47 PM

My PM40 really seems to like the Federal 165 HSTs. It shoots really well!

Tilos

01-19-2011, 09:54 PM

I save this pic from another forum because it shows the most popular 9mm defense bullets test fired into water jugs(I think) and may be of interest in the dicussion.
I did not do this test and don't know who did.

joshh

01-20-2011, 09:30 AM

those ranger t's on bottom left look brutal. was told the pdx is the same round with new bonding process to make it more effective
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/attachments/winchester/11046d1210977079-winchester-sxz-ammo-black-talons-bullet.jpg

jocko

01-20-2011, 10:14 AM

Be happy the hammer falls and the powder burns.;)

to that:D

garyb

01-20-2011, 07:37 PM

I like those sharp edges on the Winchester Ranger T's. Seems that the tear would cause more tissue damage if you had good penetration and expansion. I wonder how they compare in the 40 to the Corbon DPX in terms of ballistics, expansion and penetration? Are the Win T's commonly available or are they being phased out? The Win T's look like they may be a good contender to be considered. I had decided on the Corbon DPX but need to look into these Wins.

garyb

01-21-2011, 09:23 AM

JoshH, I checked out a Utube video of the PDX bonded round. It appeared that the PDX mushroomed well, but it did not "appear" to have the same sharp pointed edges on the copper side. It could have simply been the video....I am not certain. Just giving feedback on an observation of the video of the PDX mushroomed bullet. I do like how the Win T's sharp pointed edges mushroom out. It does not look like this round is still in production. However it does seem that surplus inventory can still be purchased as a reasonable price in various grain bullets. Thanks for sharing the photo.

ripley16

01-21-2011, 10:10 AM

It does not look like this round is still in production. However it does seem that surplus inventory can still be purchased as a reasonable price in various grain bullets. Thanks for sharing the photo.

As found on the Winchester web site.
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/default.aspx

Bawanna

01-21-2011, 10:53 AM

Far as I know it's still available. It is our duty round. I attended a Winchester workshop a few years back and I can tell you first hand that those mushroom petals are sharper than heck.

jocko

01-21-2011, 11:15 AM

heh Bawanna: I attended a Winchester workshop a few years back

what did you build there, model airplanes, prefab homes maybe, boats, rebuild Harley's?? Sounds interesting. I go to the Home builders show in vegas alot, any chance of seeing the Wincehster workship booth there??

Bawanna

01-21-2011, 11:26 AM

If you build it they will come.

Actually it was pretty cool. Dooley Enterprise, a winchester distributor puts them on. They have a big trailer they bring to your range and they got the ballistic gelatin. They shoot all the winchester bullets usually in 9, 40 and 45 against several other brands.
We put various stuff in front of the gelatin, denim, drywall, plywood etc. Even shot thru several pieces of windshield glass. Eye protection goes without saying.
It was funny because they had a gal, a prison employee shooting the 9 and the 40 and then another prison guy shooting the 45. During a break, lunch and stuff was provided I asked why she wasn't shooting the 45? She said it was just too much. I asked if she'd actually shot it and she said their instructor told her not to bother.
I told her if she could shoot the 40, they were all Glocks as I recall she'd have no issue with the 45. After the break I asked if they would allow her to shoot the 45 just for fun. The smile on her face and the total turn around was worth tons. After that she shot them all.
There were about 40 people from various agencies watching. At the end they give the hosting agency in this case the prison a bullet board with all the bullets actually shot that day all labeled with what they are and what they were shot thru. Kind of cool.

wyntrout

01-21-2011, 11:39 AM

As found on the Winchester web site.
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/default.aspx

Dang! I did a comparison of the .380, the 124-gr and 147-gr 9mm's. the 147-gr seems to accelerate after 25 yards and the energy increases! WOW!

Check that out. :)

I use the RA380T for carry and have BB 90-gr JHP and 95-gr FN +P loads as well.

Wynn

joshh

01-21-2011, 12:13 PM

got to do a vest test with a brand new safariland vest & some kevlar chest plates over the summer and it was amazing to see the performance of it with the different rounds. from what we observed with my pm9, the 147gr pdx was best performer. the pdx "talons" did open in the layers of the vest. we had to cut them out while the other 9mm rounds just mushroomed or broke apart.
if i was leo i would feel very confident in the ability of those safariland vests! we shot 1 vest with 1 round each of 9mm, .40, .357mag & .45, all w/in 25' and no penetration even when it was hit off the chest plate.

wyntrout

01-21-2011, 03:00 PM

I wonder how it would do with .22 magnum on and off the plate. When I returned from 'Nam back in '68, I brought back a horse-collar-like vest for frontal protection. It was less than 1" thick and I doubled it by pulling one side over the other... it opened down the front. My 9mm High Power went through one side and was stopped by the second side. I think that the .22RFM went through both sides. The test was unscientific and the guns were fired while standing over the vest which was on the grassy ground.
The 9mm was FMJ and I think that the .22RFM was as well, but not sure.
The Hawes 5"(?) SA pistol was the same one that I used the .22 LR cylinder to put one cleanly through my thigh... hollow point and it didn't mushroom(I guess) and didn't cause much damage. :eek: That smaller and faster .22 RFM can really penetrate, especially the FMJ-type.
<Sigh> I was emulating my Hero Clint Eastwood... from the "Dollars" series, but my finger was quicker than my draw... or my leg. :D

Wynn:w00t::der:

garyb

01-21-2011, 04:17 PM

Ouch!

NavJAG06

01-21-2011, 06:12 PM

I like the Speer rounds in my PM9.

mudfish

01-21-2011, 09:27 PM

Probably not much performance difference between a 3 inch barrel vs a 4 inch barrel.

This is a 180gr Winchester Ranger SXT fired from a 3.6" barrel from about 10 yards. It entered the back of a fleeing wild bore near the spine, traveled about 14-16" diagnally and was recovered just under the skin on the opposite side armpit. I was not the shooter but I watched it. The pig ran in a semi-circle and died 50 yards away.

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/DiRTYDOG223/photo-8.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/DiRTYDOG223/photo-7.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/DiRTYDOG223/photo-6.jpg

http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad43/DiRTYDOG223/photo-9.jpg

I had previously conucted water jug tests and wet phone book tests, and the results are nearly exactly the same as this bullet recovered from live game.

mudfish

01-21-2011, 09:28 PM

Guess what I carry?!

MikeyKahr

01-21-2011, 10:27 PM

It almost hurts just to look at it and think about the consequences.

garyb

01-22-2011, 08:07 AM

Mudfish, Is the SXT still manufactured by Win or are supplies surplus?
Is the bullet you showed a 40? Just curious.
I really like the looks of that round. TX.

joshh

01-22-2011, 09:05 AM

those pics = ouch...
the ranger t series is still made & is listed under law enforcement products on their site but ive seen the ranger t ammo in 9mm & .40 at shops, shows & cabelas. i am told the pdx is the same round & case just with the new bonding process which is why they are more $$$

mudfish

01-22-2011, 12:14 PM

Oops, yes .40 S&W and yes it's in current production.

garyb

01-24-2011, 08:07 AM

On a Utube video that I saw recently it did not appear that the new PDX version of the SXT gave the same expansion with the flared pointed copper. The PDX had good expansion, but without the snarly pointed protrusions as the T's. I do not know if the video simply did not demonstrate it well or if the PDX was changed enough so that the pointed edges were lost. It would be nice to get confirmation on this. Also, I could not find that the SXT was listed on the Winchester ammo site. They look to be a very nice round. Thanks.

DasFriek

01-24-2011, 11:15 AM

The Winchester T-series can be hard to find since its regulated to LEO sales only, But it can be found at gun shows and online. Same goes for Federal HST.
Ive always been a stickler of matching my ammo to my ccw guns to maximize penetration and expansion.

1. 1911 5" Gov. loaded with Winchester T-series 230gr +P
2. 1911 3.5" Officers loaded with Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P
3. Kahr MK9 loaded with Federal HST 147gr +P and i also have a box of Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P short barrel loads so i have a choice.

But in reality i could have loaded all my guns with Golden Sabers and all do the same performance wise. But if you guys haven't noticed about me is i obsess over even the smallest of issues.
I could write paragraphs on why i chose each round for each gun.

Some you read is marketing, But i never bought my carry ammo due to manufacturers statements, But from as much ballistic and chrono tests i could find.

I say if you have the time to research what loads will give you the best results you want out of your gun, Then all the better go for it. I did.

But you could just buy any top makers SD ammo and not worry about it and i highly doubt any coroner could tell the difference between my matched ammo and yours.
The main thing is to get modern bullets which tend to expand more reliably and larger even at slower speeds.
10-20 years ago it wasn't as easy as it is today picking ammo for a specific gun.
Ive even picked specific ammo's for each of my mom and dads guns.
His- Taurus PT92 loaded with Winchester PDX1 124gr 9mm +P bonded
Hers- Walther PPS 9mm loaded with Hornady Critical defense 115gr

joshh

01-24-2011, 11:28 AM

DasFriek

01-24-2011, 11:47 AM

Garyb- I do believe the SXT has been discontinued and replaced with the PDX1 bonded.
But the T-Series remains and the SXT can still be found online last i looked.

IIRC there has been about 4-5 revisions of the T-series line with 3 generations just of T-series and then off shoot branches like the SXT and PDX1 both of which are bonded. The SXT became the PDX1 when it was marketed to the public iirc.
Reason being its been around a long time since the original Black Talons. Winchester just built upon that line instead of scrapping it like it led the public to believe.

HST Federals are a newish round and hasnt been threw any changes and is well known for great expansion at lower speeds and still have high penetration.

Gold Dots are may have slowly had changes done to them but not much in the way of revisions from what what ive read, The short barrel version being one. But i feel that is more of a marketing tool as the GD bullet expands well at low speeds anyhow.

The Hornady Critical defense is getting mixed reviews in the hands of the public who are testing it using phone books and water jugs covered in old rugs from their kitchens.
The facts is it expands excellently at low speeds and will penetrate just below FBI standards due to its lighter weight, But that helps keep recoil down and great for people who want rapid shots or like kick for the ladies.
People also knock the round for not penetrating windshields and barriers without screwing up the bullet to the point it dont work well once it hits flesh.
But its designed for 3'-5' self defense face to face encounters.

I will say anyone using Hydro-shocks may want to move up to a more upto date load, They do clog and have expansion issues at times. The federal Hi-Shock which replaced it is better, But the HST which is their top of the line ammo at Federal can still be bought buy citizens.

I like to pick my ammo by barrel lenght which tells me which grain bullet to use, Then i look for a brand that carries that load and in a +P if possible as that allows you to use a slightly higher grain. The higher the grain the better since it promotes more penetration.
A shorter barrel will make me step down a size in grains, But in the case of my MK9 i went with 147gr +p but the reason is its loaded nice and hot and expands perfectly even at lower speeds while retaining penetration.
But just in case i change my mind i have the Gold Dot 124gr +P short barrel loads on hand.

Im sure there my be things im wrong on or missed and even confused about what i wrote above as its alot of info to pack into a little brain.

DasFriek

01-24-2011, 11:53 AM

the pdx does do the flaring like the t's but i have seen different results with it depending on what it hits.
http://www.youtube.com/user/andreleger2001#p/search/3/M283nWhLPmk

From what ive seen the PDX1 being a bonded round will have the lead folded right along with the petals so they don't end up looking like sharp "Talons"

The T-series is not a bonded round and such the lead and case don't expand together and the copper jacket talons tend to stand out more and look more deadly.
Luckily this round is not known to separate the jacket from the lead completely as that would be bad, It just does it on the petals.

garyb

01-24-2011, 01:03 PM

Thanks DasFriek. That is what I saw about the new Win PDX round also. I felt it was due to the bonding that did not allow the talons to separate as they do on the SXT. I kind of like the talon separation and wish they were still in production.

What are your thoughts about the Corbon DPX in 40S&W? Thanks.

DasFriek

01-24-2011, 06:42 PM

Please remember tho, Im just an average joe gun hobbiest who researches stuff alot. Im no authority and ive been know to make slight mistakes as i cant remember everything i read.

The non bonded T-series is what you want.
http://www.sgammo.com/
This is what i carry in my 5" 1911, And sometimes my 3.5" 1911 as they have a bit higher than normal fps for a +P .45 round.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-45-auto-p-ranger-t-series-ra45tp-winchester-45
They are still in production and the last digit in the part number should be "T".

Dont tell anyone about this steal: http://www.sgammo.com/product/cci/50-rds-45-acp-auto-speer-lawman-200-grain-fmj-tmj-ammo-53655
I found some a few months back that were the same flat nose 200gr lawman but in the +p version, I keep those for woods carry as they have one heck of a whollop!

The Federal HST is basically the same round also HST= (Hi-Shock Talon) imo.
So either will be a nasty round, Plus since they are "LEO only" they don't come in chump box's of 20.
Its always fun getting shipments of ammo with warnings that the ammo is "LEO only and not for use by the general public".
Read the fine print in blue on these Nato 9mm fmj's:
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-9mm-nato-ranger-winchester-124gr-p-ra9124n-ammo

The Corbon DPX is an excellent round imo. But i have some info you may find interesting.
Some reports recently have been coming in about inconsistent expansion, But most of these guys are shooting phone books also.
They are a 100% copper bullet which takes more space to get the grain weight close to middle weight rounds.
In the .40 class you usually see 155gr and 165gr DPX but never 180gr as the bullet would be too large physically being that copper isn't as heavy as lead.
Expansion is wonderful on the rounds ive seen often times beating many of the other top contenders.
To get picky it would be easy to say they wont penetrate as far due to the lower weight and its ability to expand much more which slows it down.

IMO i love the DPX round, Especially in shorter barrels. Thats where lighter bullets shine is shorter bores and even tho they are lighter the mass is higher so once expanded it will do possibly more damage than a higher grain bullet.
And from what ive seen most will reach 12" of penetration when fully expanded.

Their downfall? Cost, $40 for a box of 20 or 25 is alot.
I think they are best suited to the .380 and 9mm calibers as weight margins are smaller compared to the higher rounds like the .40 and .45

Despite their cost id never tell anyone they wasted money buying that ammo as it is a top performer.

joshh

01-24-2011, 07:59 PM

the pdx's do still expand with talons same as ranger t. the bonding just prevents jacket separation. this is what ive been told as well as what ive observed in person (w/ some homemade tests)
heres a pic i found too
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/Shooting%20stuff/PDX1close2_1200w.jpg

garyb

01-24-2011, 08:05 PM

joshh, Not doubting you, but the utube vids did not show the PDX talons exposed as they are on the ranger T's. Your pic did not come through for me to open. I hope this issue can get clarified somehow. Is ther a site or vid to review to see this. It only makes sense that the bonded bullet would not separate from the talons. ???? I wish I knew this for certain. Tx.

After I sent this, the photo came through. I see some of the talons protruding. Appears that you are correct on this joshh. Interesting. TX.

joshh

01-24-2011, 08:17 PM

at the end of the vid he shows the rounds and you should be able to see the talons. here is another pic (animated from winchester) it should show or follow the image links to their pics on google. if you are concerned then just grab the rangerT's they are a great round and what many dept's use and are 1/2 the price of the pdx's. i have seen the best results with the 147gr in my pm9.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0uhBfA9Pqv4/hqdefault.jpg

NoJustHappyToSeeYou

01-24-2011, 09:25 PM

Massad Ayoob said as recently as last Summer that he hadn't yet seen any data on real world shootings with the PDX round -- still too new. Lab tests are great. Lab tests plus real world results are much better, IMO. There seems to be a lot to be optimistic about from what I've read, though.

DasFriek

01-25-2011, 12:02 AM

From every round ive seen expanded the Ranger T's the lead and copper petals/talons aren't bonded, Allowing the copper Talons to expand much further than the bonded PDX. But the core and jacket wont separate.
From what ive read some seem to believe the jacket and base are bonded in some way as ive never seen one separate.

With the greater expansion most people who know these two rounds will choose the Talons over the PDX, And yes they are half the price.

This is just my preference of bullets in order:
1. Ranger Talons
2. Federal HST's
3. Gold Dots
4. PDX1
5. DPX
6. Hornady CD FTX

100percent

01-25-2011, 11:25 AM

Makes me wonder how people were stopped by gunshot wounds before these magic bullets.

joshh

01-25-2011, 11:54 AM

Makes me wonder how people were stopped by gunshot wounds before these magic bullets.

hahaha... that's a great point.
if it ever hit the fan: reliability is the most important feature and both winchester's rangerT's and win pdx have performed great in my pm9 so i dont think you could go wrong with either one. i havent shot many other 9mm defense rounds as i liked the winchester's performance best when i went through this with my .40

DasFriek

01-25-2011, 12:16 PM

Makes me wonder how people were stopped by gunshot wounds before these magic bullets.

Ive heard stories that in the past of people having 1911's pulled on someone and they had a heart attack on the spot and then soiled their pants.

Dont get me wrong, A fmj will kill just as easily as a hollow point. But HP's have a better chance of stopping them in their tracks while they still keep advancing after being shot with a fmj.
Technology affects everything, Im sure many revolver guys said the same thing when the 1911 came out.

I also stated in my first post iirc that im a stickler for selecting the perfect round for each ccw gun i own, But in reality i could just use Golden Sabers in everything and it most likely make 0% difference.
But besides ccw as a way of life for me i am a gun hobbyist also and that part makes me research and read everything i can to inform myself.
Most times at best im splitting hairs, But you know sometimes someone else may find it informative like i did also.

garyb

01-25-2011, 05:32 PM

Keep the info coming in DasFriek! Some learn from good info.
TX

garyb

01-25-2011, 07:06 PM

DasFriek,
You stated that the Corbon DPX comes in the 155 and 165, restricted due to the copper length. I get your point and your are correct about the length of the bullet due to copper material. However, the DPX only comes in 140gr in the 40 cal. Not a major point...and only mentioned for clarification.

I am also curious why you ranked the Fed HST before the Gold Dot? I had them in in a slightly different order based on ballistics and expansion/penetration. However I feel all four are very very good choices and it may come down to cost too. I agree, we are really spliting hairs with this analysis and I keep going back and forth on the ratings. I guess I am still not informed enough to make a final decision for my PM40. I realize that I am currently carrying the wrong ammo (Fed Hydrashocks 135gr), but will continue to carry it until I make my final choice.

1. Speer Gold Dot 155 OR Corbon DPX 140 (very close 2nd and possibly equivalent to the Gold Dots). I lean toward the Corbon probably due to their marketing information and the communications I've had with them. However, Gold Dot has great ballistics.

2. Win PDX 165 OR Fed HST 155 I like them both equally, probably due to the combination of their quality ballistics and great expansion characteristics.

I still can't locate the Win T's in 155gr or they would be included too. I like them, but can't find ballistics or 155's.

DasFriek

01-26-2011, 09:49 AM

I can be very wrong here, But i swear ive seen 155gr or 165gr .40 cal DPX ammo.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/cor-bon_DPX_pistol.htm
If you read that you can see they use a 155gr in the 10mm load which can be universally swapped into the .40 line also.

But after a bit of searching im not finding anything but 140gr DPX as the only .40 choice.

I picked the HST higher due to it having a larger expansion and maybe even a tad better job at expanding at low speeds. But also you get the "T" in HST which ive always looked at meaning "Talon" like Winchesters Talon series.
If you look at at an expanded HST it has the same looking talons the non bonded Winchester T-series has. And it too being somewhat bonded at the base so core and case separation doesn't happen.
So my reason personally for liking the HST over the GD is:
Larger expansion.
Talons exposed for increased damage.
Better expansion reliability over the GD when going threw clothing.
The HST is highly cut all the way down it outer jacket so it expands as fast as possible once hitting tissue.

Any of my opnions could be argued wrong, Im no expert. And im in no way saying the HST is a much better round, Im just saying it may have slight advantages over the GD.

BTW the 200gr GD +P is what i carry in my 3.5" 1911
The main reason is Talon series and HST and PDX1 for that matter no one makes a 200gr bullet. In a shorter barrel i want less mass to keep FPS high so expansion isn't inhabited. And 200gr is still gonna penetrate deep.

Now about your 135gr Hydro-shoks. I used to carry them in my Ruger P90 20+ years ago and to this day are know to easily clog with clothing and have inconsistent expansion.
Secondly is you want as much mass and highest grain bullet without slowing it down with a short barrel. In a PM40 i think almost everyone agree the 155gr and 165 gr ammo is the best for that gun.
135gr ammo in a .40 is well known not to penetrate deep enough.

To answer your numbered questions.
1. I don't see much difference in those 2 loads, But personally id lean towards the GD's in 155gr. You get a heavier load with the GD and i feel the GD has better expansion reliability depending on what material the target is covered in.
140gr is gonna penetrate less despite what anyone says, Its the laws of physics that cant be argued.
Price- You can get a box of 50 GD's for $20 or so and the DPX $40 for 20.
Id much rather buy an ammo i can test in my gun more thoroughly.

2. I like the HST over the PDX1 as the HST is know to expand larger since its not inhibited due to being fully bonded like the petals on the PDX1 are.
Plus they give much nastier wound channels with those talons.
But the 165gr PDX1 will penetrate deeper and is a very reliable expander so i call this one a close call, But i lean towards the HST.

Here is the info on the Winny Tseries. I know with their .45acp line they are almost 50fps high speeds compared to its competitors.
40 Smith and Wesson 165 gr. Ranger T-Series- RA40TA
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/RA40TA.aspx

I hope i answered everything accurately and best of my knowledge.
Now my list i posted a few posts back where i ranked all the ammo lines, Those only pertain to me as im biased to the .45acp round and whats best for me may not be best for a .40 cal gun with a short barrel.

For the MK40 with what info i know, Id choose my ammo like this:

Winchester T-Series RA40TA Ranger 40 Smith and Wesson 165gr
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhst.aspx

Federal P40HST3 40 S&W 165gr
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhst.aspx

Speer Gold Dot 165gr 50 round box.

PDX1
DPX Corbon
Hornady Critical defense.

I know i seem to be stuck on a few rounds, But ive seen nothing but excellent results from the T-series, HST and Gold Dots, With the PDX1 following the group.

joshh

01-26-2011, 10:47 AM

so why did the FBI switch to the PDX1's? from what i read they showed superiority in maintaining mass and expansion when penetrating clothing as well as light barriers (car doors). As far as the talons go - the pdx's DO have them as well. i like federal ammo and fire more of their bullets than any other brand but the technology in the pdx1's (and the rangerT's) has them beat. Jacket separation with hollow point rounds was a major concern for the feds and Winchester for a reason.

mudfish

01-26-2011, 01:41 PM

Why the lighter 165's instead of the 180's in 40 S&W?

garyb

01-26-2011, 02:59 PM

DasFriek,
Info much appreciated. I totally agree about my Fed Hydrashock 135's and DO plan to change. It just happened to be what I settled on originally, just because. It was to keep the recoil nearer to the target loads I was shooting, but it turned out that I am not recoil sensitive. I realized at the time I purchased them that there were better ammos out there, but it would take me some time to sort things out. I agree with your comments and already realized those points. Well taken.

Thanks for clarifying that you were pointing your selections toward a 45. I didn't catch that in your earlier post. I'm clear now.

As for the DPX, perhaps you were looking at the Corbon JHP rather than the DPX? I've made this same misjudgement previously, so I understand. So many ammo types out there, we can only absorb so much at a time. Eventually the cumulative effect of research helps. OR perhaps Corbon DPX was made in other weights prior to my researching Corbon a few months ago.

Finally, thanks for your advice on the 40 selections. I have not wanted to go as heavy as 180 in the 40 and have wanted to stay at or under 165, preferring 155 and 140. I like all your choices and will check them out further.

Did you have any suppliers of 155-165 Win T's???

Thanks a bunch.

Bawanna

01-26-2011, 03:18 PM

I've gotten them for the dept at www.dooleyenterprises.com. They are in Aneheim CA and I believe they have an outlet in Oregon.

They are a winchester distributor and I'm not positive if they sell just to LE or anyone, worth a check.

You might also try San Diego Police Supply, they have been our state contract ammo supplier and have a lot of inventory and winchester ammo.

I've never tried to buy there personally either so I'm not sure on them either.

I've never looked but several have mentioned AmmotoGo? Can't remember who that was but word was very few backorders and lots of options.

Bawanna

01-26-2011, 03:23 PM

jocko

01-26-2011, 03:49 PM

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213604029

Heres some 165 gr on gunbroker. 500 ought to last ya long time.

In looking I don't think any of the places I mentioned before will work except maybe ammotogo. The others are LE suppliers so they wouldn't sell LE ammo to any one not military or LE.

I got those two Fenix PD35 lites today. They are awesome. One for my son, anyway I loaded the lites with batteries and narturally on high beam, I just ahd to see how brite the fokkers was. so I shined it in my eyes. That was 4 hours ago andI still have headaches and spots. Then after reading the directions, it stated in big letter for even an idiot to read. DO NOT SHINE IN YOUR EYES..

So like many typical kahr owners who buy guns and wipe their as-es with the manual papers, it defnitely PAYS TO READ THE DIRECTIONS. :popcorn:

garyb

01-26-2011, 04:25 PM

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=213604029 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213604029)

Heres some 165 gr on gunbroker. 500 ought to last ya long time.

Thanks a bunch Bawanna. Hope they are still available when I return from our RV trip. Don't want to have them shipped right now while I am away. I'll check this site when I get back home. Thanks again.

Rechecked and bidding ended. Oh well. However, the bulk bids and offers seem to keep popping up. I'll probably buy 1 box to try them out first. Tx again.

Mr. S

01-26-2011, 06:55 PM

BTW the 200gr GD +P is what i carry in my 3.5" 1911
The main reason is Talon series and HST and PDX1 for that matter no one makes a 200gr bullet. In a shorter barrel i want less mass to keep FPS high so expansion isn't inhabited. And 200gr is still gonna penetrate deep.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_200grGDHP.htm

DasFriek

01-26-2011, 07:53 PM

Ill address everyone else in a moment but MR.S brings up a good point.
Im not saying this sarcastically as ive seen tests like that done on every bullet we have been discussing and most faired the same fate.

The main issue is no Bad Guy is gonna be wearing 4 pairs of jeans, Or even 2 for that matter. But there will always be clothing involved in any shooting that you must penetrate.
If that is your major concern you should look at the Hornady Critical Defense which does fair better in 4 denim tests but still not perfect, Or swap out to a Flat nose jacketed bullet.

As has been reported for many years, the Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 200 gr +P JHP is NOT recommended for duty use. This load has demonstrated numerous failures to expand both in lab testing and in actual officer involved shooting incidents; it also has exhibited numerous failures to feed and function in a variety of .45 ACP pistol types.
If the guy feels so strongly in his concerns he should bring up a class action suit against Speer for knowingly endangering lives. My point is one guy shooting stuff in his back yard doesn't tarnish we well known round like the GD imo one bit.

This is one of those times i trust my own judgment over what i read.
As ive said ive seen my share of bad reports on every single ammo we have talked about, Search the net you will find them.

Im not 100% sure why the FBI went with the PDX1 and in reality they didn't, They went with the Bonded Ranger Talons. The difference is the marketing and the 20 round chump box they make you buy. But the PDX1 is the civilian name for the round the FBI uses and they get 50 round box's.
Good info to know if your buying that ammo in bulk.

Why they chose them over the Ranger Talon's i don't know, As they tend not to separate the case and lead at the base. But if shooting threw barriers is an issue a fully bonded jacket would suffer less distortion once it hits the softer tissue.

The reason why i would suggest a 155/165gr ammo over 180gr bullet is when your dealing with small to mid length barrels of 3"-4".
15-25gr's lighter load can help give the bullet a good boost in FPS to help expansion and it should penetrate just as much as the 180gr load with a lower speed. Ive often felt that could be offset if you were to use a 180gr +P load.
Ive actually had many discussions about this in several forums and most people feel this is the best way to deal with shorter barrels.

But with todays better bullets that expand at slower speeds i see no reason why you cant use a normal 180gr load.
I even use Federal HST 147gr +p in my MK9
But i also have a box of Gold Dot 127gr +P short barrel loads also.
This one is almost like splitting hairs as its almost too close to call and just become personal preference.

Ive only purchased my ammo threw these places.
http://www.sgammo.com/
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php
And at gunshows.

But this guy sells threw forums and over the net but i think you have to send photo ID, But ive never heard an issue with him.
http://www.kylesgunshop.com/

And guys please if you see something im making a mistake on or just completely wrong point it out. I don't argue points or facts or theories but i feel we all have the right to an opinion and try and leave it like that.
But if im dead wrong making a mistake pls say something as i make mistakes.

One thing id like to say so you dont end up like me with tons of info thats not needed.
Just pick a high quality ammo in the weight that matches your barrel length and you will do good, Follow what ammo the LEO's are using and that makes it even easier. Always use the heaviest bullet you can unless your barrel is shorter than 4" and drop one notch lower to help specs.
And only use +P if it doesn't affect your getting back on target fast enough for follow up shots.
Splitting hairs and stressing over 15gr of weight and +p or not +p will just stress you and likely NEVER matter if you need to use your weapon.

garyb

01-26-2011, 08:24 PM

DasFriek,
I like your attitude and your approach. Everything you say makes sense to me and I have read nothing that is way off base. If something is off the mark, it is not far off. I especially agree with the 155-165gr round for the short barrel in the manufacturer and model ammo you suggest. Hopefully I can secure a supply of Win T's, but if not, I'll do well with the Fed HST's, or the Gold Dots, or the PDX; or DPX. They are all good. I really feel I understand the current market for the micro. Great dialog. Thanks a bunch.

NoJustHappyToSeeYou

01-26-2011, 09:23 PM

I second Garyb -- great posts.

One correction, though -- I recently bought from kylesgunshop.com and did not have to send a photo ID.

Cheers

Mr. S

01-26-2011, 09:26 PM

DasFriek

01-26-2011, 09:27 PM

Im glad i could help, And whats good is most of it carries over to the other calibers as well.
But it gets crazy when you start looking at some of the hand loaders like Double Tap and Buffalo Bore.
But in all honesty i their loads most useful in the .380 and 10mm market since those have been ignored a long time for self defense loads, Until recently when the major ammo makers ramped up .380 loads for SD.

Ill be honest with you i hate the .40, I just cant handle its flipping recoil. But i love everything else about it so i really wished i didn't have that issue.
But ive had alot of experience with .45acp loads and it gets really fun testing every load i can find, This pertains to the hollow point Self Defense loads only as fmj loads are ALL generally watered down. Which im sure you have seen that alot also with the .40
So buy your SD ammo as much as you can in the 50 round box's so you can compare how it shoots for you in that particular gun.

Ive found a few odd ball loads that just plain amazed me when i didn't think anything of them.
Speer Lawman 200gr +P TMJ flat nose and it hits like a 2 ton brick, I saved some back for woods carry.
Then earlier this past month i found a reputable hand loader at a gun show, Don't try that unless you will to have your gun explode as thats where most kabooms are related too is reloads.
But they were 185gr Nosler +P .45acp and i felt like my gun was pushed straight back into my shoulder like it had a stock on it. And the muzzle blast was enough to light up a whole house in the dark.
Most fun round i think ive shot in my 1911's.

So im kinda saying practice with what you carry but experimenting keeps it fun if you can afford a box or 2 every once in a while.

SGammo.com Always has the best prices ive found online and fast and easy to deal with. But they will get some odd loads in that im talking about.
The Speer Lawman 200gr +P TMJ flat nose i got for $16 a box.
Thats pretty much $4 less than normal prices.

I love talking ammo, So you can stop responding anytime. lol
Ive gotten into so many side hobbies just from wanting my ccw I gained like 4 hobbies at once.

DasFriek

01-26-2011, 09:57 PM

NoJustHappyToSeeYou- Good info as i know i passed up buying there as i didn't want the hassle. Its almost payday and a time to drop some bills on ammo so hopefully i find some good stuff.

The link I posted isn't from a guy shooting in his backyard.
You should read the whole thing if you haven't already.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

And just out of curiosity why do you believe the same round in your 3.5" barrel will perform better than it did in a 4.25 barrel @1008 FPS?
The gold dot is a great bullet but why do you think they make a 230 gr .45acp Gold Dot short barrel load?

Here is similar testing with Federal HST and Corbon DPX in 45acp.
They have no problem with the denim test.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._CorbonDPX.htm

The critical defense is a gimmick at best.Why limit yourself to an ammo designed to perform under limited circumstances?

Now i know where i seen that page from, And your right he's not just a guy shooting at jugs in his back yard.
As to the reliability i feel that is subjective to the gun its in, Of course we all should test what we carry with any ammo.

I still feel 4 layers of denim test is a little odd, Id rather see a side of hog shot personally. But all kinds of problems doing that. But even you have to admit there have been people showing all kinds of denim tests and all were able to make each of the high end bullets fail to expand one way or another?

But let me ask you this. How did Speer make a full line of calibers and weights of GD's and only manage to screw 1 up?
To me id have to ask who's side would i have to err on?
And if all else fails and that guy is completely right than i would just be using a FMJ out of a .45acp which is rather deadly on its own.

Ill admit that page even made me question not buying the 200gr GD's due to it.
But i came around to what i said what obsessing over minor details and i see no major flaws in the 200gr GD's design.

In no way do i think a shorter barrel would perform better than an almost 1" longer barrel ballistics wise. Im citing other issues as to why i don't put a ton of weight into his findings.

Ive seen other tests also where the HST and DPX both failed to expand and erratic at expanding.
If i felt i was in danger due to my ammo choice i have enough Ranger-T 230gr +P left that i could put in my 3.5" Officers. That load is actually 40fps higher than other exact loads so it would make a good choice in the gun also.

Heck i even have 185gr +P Nosler's which i couldn't guarantee their expansion but i could only imagine the damage they could do.

I dont call the Hornady CD a gimmick, If so i would take them immediately out of my moms PPS 9mm.
They are a round made to be used is close quarters and expand 100% of the time no matter what the clothing. The only issues ive heard is they do horrible on barriers, For LEO duty i could see that as an issue.
But they are a very reliable round and soft shooting and great for people who cant take heavy recoil.

They arent a load for me, And most likley not for you. But they are perfect for some people out there and they do the job they are designed to do.
And that is feed and expand reliably and be controllable in close quarters.

garyb

01-27-2011, 08:13 AM

One thing is a little confusing to me. www.cheaperthandirt.com (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com) has the 40SW Win Ranger 155 designated RA40155 @ $19.79/box of 50. However these are not clearly designated "T's".
Yet www.sgammo.com (http://www.sgammo.com) has the 40SW Win Ranger 165 clearly designated SX"T" for $28/box of 50. I am confident these are the real deal.

On another site I found the RA40155 with a HPF designation after it and they were also under $20/box of 50. No indication they were "T's". The HPF has me concerned that I won't get the T's.

Are the Win Ranger 155's with the RA40155 designation the T's. I was under the impression the Ranger was automatically the Tallon bullet and am a little confused about this now. Thanks.

smokey337

01-27-2011, 09:39 AM

Ordered 4 boxes of this the other day for my .45. One of the gun stores I use had the non +P listed for 69.99 a box. I couldn't believe it and asked if it was mis-marked. The salesman said no this is LE Ammo and you can't get it. Thought that was funny! What a ripoff.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/50rd-45-auto-p-ranger-t-series-ra45tp-winchester-45

DasFriek is right about the prices at SG. I've ordered from them before and the sevice is good as well.

DasFriek

01-27-2011, 11:29 AM

Its always best to check product numbers threw Winchester.
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/default.aspx
But on a quick reference you can tell a T-series load as it will end in a T like RA40TA which is 165gr and RA40T is the 180gr load.
So if a T is in the last 2 letters or numbers of the load numbers its usually a T series, But i still check at Winchester myself.

The CTD ammo is their plain jane HP that looks to have been discontinued.
I hate CTD when buying ammo personally, But do buy other stuff.

And yes this is the ammo you want if you want the 165gr T-series.
The SXT part can be confusing, But it has to do with revisions im told.
The T-series ammo has certain loads that have been revised 5 times iirc since the days the Black Talon was released.
The SXT isn't the final revision as most likely Winchester felt they didn't need any upgrading, IIRC the SXT was the 4th revision.
Ammo companies fight hard to stay on top and loads can change alot.

You guys should see some of the prices ive seen for .45acp in the T-series.
$55 and they try and make it sound like they are doing you a favor.

Mr. S

01-27-2011, 05:14 PM

NoJustHappyToSeeYou- Good info as i know i passed up buying there as i didn't want the hassle. Its almost payday and a time to drop some bills on ammo so hopefully i find some good stuff.

Now i know where i seen that page from, And your right he's not just a guy shooting at jugs in his back yard.
As to the reliability i feel that is subjective to the gun its in, Of course we all should test what we carry with any ammo.

I still feel 4 layers of denim test is a little odd, Id rather see a side of hog shot personally. But all kinds of problems doing that. But even you have to admit there have been people showing all kinds of denim tests and all were able to make each of the high end bullets fail to expand one way or another?

But let me ask you this. How did Speer make a full line of calibers and weights of GD's and only manage to screw 1 up?
To me id have to ask who's side would i have to err on?
And if all else fails and that guy is completely right than i would just be using a FMJ out of a .45acp which is rather deadly on its own.

Ill admit that page even made me question not buying the 200gr GD's due to it.
But i came around to what i said what obsessing over minor details and i see no major flaws in the 200gr GD's design.

In no way do i think a shorter barrel would perform better than an almost 1" longer barrel ballistics wise. Im citing other issues as to why i don't put a ton of weight into his findings.

Ive seen other tests also where the HST and DPX both failed to expand and erratic at expanding.
If i felt i was in danger due to my ammo choice i have enough Ranger-T 230gr +P left that i could put in my 3.5" Officers. That load is actually 40fps higher than other exact loads so it would make a good choice in the gun also.

Heck i even have 185gr +P Nosler's which i couldn't guarantee their expansion but i could only imagine the damage they could do.

I dont call the Hornady CD a gimmick, If so i would take them immediately out of my moms PPS 9mm.
They are a round made to be used is close quarters and expand 100% of the time no matter what the clothing. The only issues ive heard is they do horrible on barriers, For LEO duty i could see that as an issue.
But they are a very reliable round and soft shooting and great for people who cant take heavy recoil.

They arent a load for me, And most likley not for you. But they are perfect for some people out there and they do the job they are designed to do.
And that is feed and expand reliably and be controllable in close quarters.

I think the denim test is fine.All the good loads have no problems with them.
You may have seen tests where those loads didn't expand but who did the test and how did they test it.
no problems here:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_CorbonDPX.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_RangerBonded.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/40_CorbonDPX.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/40_155grDT_155gr165grGDHP.htm

Here are some good ones and a few bad ones,the Hornady did well on it's second try and the Gold dot failed on a different lot number

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/38spl_HorndayFTX_SpeerGDHP_CorbonDPX.htm

I will still stay clear of the 200+P Gold Dot if it can't expand reliably at 1000+FPS when the 230 Gr. Gold Dot will at 900 I think there is something wrong with them.
As for the Hornady if you read your description it is proving my point.When you carry a gun you don't know when or how you may have to use it.Gold Dot,Ranger T,HST, DPX all do everything the Hornady does and perform better through barriers so why limit yourself?

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm

DasFriek

01-27-2011, 05:27 PM

I dont understand why you persist to push your point, I believe i got it a few posts back.
The Hornady CD is in my 65 year old mom's PPS 9mm that sits next to her hospital bed she rarely gets out of. What barriers will he encounter the Lazy-Boy?
I want her to get lite recoil and reliable expansion.
Does she need some Bonded Talons to shoot threw the plasma tv?

I also took all my GD 200gr .45 ammo and threw it in the pond in my back yard, It should never endanger my life again.

Anything else you can save me from thats endangering mine and my families life?
My 1911 is a Taurus, They are well know for bad Customer Service so i better melt that down and but a Wilson Combat immediately!

Now that ive got all that out of my system im done with this thread, Anyone can feel free to PM me if they need further help.

garyb

02-03-2011, 07:40 AM

Ordered Win 40cal 165gr SXT's last night from www.sgammo.com (http://www.sgammo.com) Their price per box of 200 was the same as www.gunbroker.com (http://www.gunbroker.com) price per box of 250; so I thought I'd try a smaller quantity out before settling on them. Although I am very confident in the SXT's performance. 200 rounds of carry ammo will go a long way, considering that I am expecting to only need to shoot off one box of 50 to test them. I doubt that I will practice much with the carry ammo after that, because I will be reloading for IDPA. However, in bulk orders the price for these SXT's is very affordable to be shot up, compared to some of the other stuff out there.The SXT price per 50 was cheaper than some of the competitor's carry ammo price per 20. Interesting. Some will say that you get what you pay for, but in this case, I feel the SXT are qualtiy for a good price....providing I am happy with the way they shoot.

I'll feed my Fed Hydrashock's to the backstop on the range.

This was a helpful thread and helped me make a good change, although I struggled between the Win SXT, Fed HST, Gold Dot, Win PDX and Corbon DPX. All very good rounds for the 40 IMO. It is great to have options. Thanks for your valuable input DasFriek, but I only wish it had not ended on a sour note as a result of comments from another poster. We can't take this stuff personally, because on one hand everyone has their own opinion and on the other side someone out there will benefit from the discussion....like me! TX.

DasFriek

02-03-2011, 08:35 AM

Well, Ill answer your post..... We be good!
I agree in buying 1 box for testing and not 4-5 and have to sell it at a loss if it wont feed in your gun. You can always order more. I just placed a $200 order with SGammo which may be small to most its a big order for me. But mine was all target ammo.
The main reason a box of 50 is so much cheaper than 20 is those are marketed towards LEO's and sold to dealers cheaper, The 20 round is aimed at consumers and sold to the retail spots at higher prices.
The problem happens when you go hunting for specific 50 round box's it may be hard to find next time as you never know who may have any in stock for sale to the public.
Ive been known to buy the "chump box" 20 round ones in Gold dots a lot as they never seem to have the loads i want in 50 round box's.

I still struggle as to which load ill carry and have 2 guns i have 2 different ammo's for ccw use. But in the end i just stick which one makes me feel happy inside in the gun and go on.

I wont say much about the last thing as its best to just let dead dogs lay.

garyb

02-03-2011, 09:33 AM

DasFriek, Yea, I see your point regarding the challenge of locating the 50 round SXT's in the quantity I wanted. However, I am glad it worked out this time. I may not be so lucky next time, but If I am happy with them, I'd be willing to up the quantity of the next order. I also see your point on the chump boxes of 20 sold to the public. What a gimmick.

As mentioned, I struggled between the selections available. However, seeing the SXT expansion and finding the 50 round SXT's priced right vs the prices on the 20 rd competitor selections....made my decision easier.

Again...Thanks for your help. Good thread. I learned alot and feel much more comfortable with 40cal ammo selections (although I have not shot them all yet...so still more to learn). Always good to learn and be open/willing to change.
Respectfully.

DasFriek

02-03-2011, 06:32 PM

I think the T-Series is much easier to find that Federal HST's as for some reason Federal is alot tougher on retailers who sell them.
I found some HST 147gr +P 9mm 50 round box for $30 at the last local gun show and ive been very happy with them, Very solid hitter.

Sadly ive even bought the chump box's usually Gold Dots as they tend to not make alot of varieties in 50 round box's, Usually its the most demanded load LEO's use that you see.
I like SGammo mainly as i can get very high quality fmj target ammo at basic ammo prices. Ranger fmj Nato +P loads in 9mm and Speer Lawman 200gr fmj copies of their Gold Dot line. Sprinkle in some Ranger 147gr flat nose 9mm and i look forward to shooting alot more over just using WWB and Federal red box from Walmart.

I do watch how many +P loads i send threw my MK9's barrel as i like a tight gun, But its built like a brick so a box once in a while wont hurt anything.

They also had some Speer Lawman 200gr +P fmj .45acp Flat nose for $16 a box and sadly i only bought two box's, But was smart enough to save one. As you don't see much +P fmj anything usually for the public.
They will be my woods carry load as bears have been prowling my families land in WV and that round is about as good as it gets unless i go to .45 Super.

Mr. S

02-03-2011, 07:21 PM

Thanks for your valuable input DasFriek, but I only wish it had not ended on a sour note as a result of comments from another poster. We can't take this stuff personally, because on one hand everyone has their own opinion and on the other side someone out there will benefit from the discussion....like me! TX.

I thought this was an intelligent discussion thread?
A difference in opinion shouldn't cause a mature adult to bow out of a thread.
I called the Hornady CD defense a gimmick which is what it is.
(Read the link at the bottom of post #90 which has a quote from Steve Johnson at Hornady in the beginning.)

tomwalshco

02-04-2011, 05:58 PM

I think it's mostly marketing.....
Now ammo such as this, without any FDA or ammo police, could simply be a different box!!

just sayin'
Tilos
Right on the button, Tilos.

Colt has been doing it for 50 years.
Glock for 25.
Great guns, but new? improved? revolutionary??
Centennial 1911 offerings. huh? 50th Anniversary Corvettes. right.

CEO walks into quarterly meeting and sez - "We gotta sell more product!"
Marketing guy sez - "How 'bout a blah, blah, blah campaign. Those guys are gullible, they'll buy anything if we make the box look bad and cool...."

Any data numbers can be ginned up to make the New and Improved look super innovative. Bangers in my town seem to be doing a pretty good job of it with old, tired WWB from Wallys.

RONDO

02-04-2011, 06:31 PM

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Trzh7BnYpeDsN677nwjKMoDGvA2eTAAe8gj1CyzRjh0?feat=d irectlink

Mr.S
I realize you don't mean to be offensive, because you say so ... :)
However, statements in your posting, while intended or not, directly attack the close held beliefs of others. You might preface your feelings about Hornady Critical Defense with IMO or IMHO to tone down the rhetoric a bit... just an example.;) You're amongst friends here. We all really dig guns and chatting about them with other like minded folks. Sharing opinions and info with fellow afficianados can be both fun and fruitful.:cool: Cheers!

Bawanna

02-04-2011, 06:55 PM

Apparently alot of friends 2150 views on this thread. Wow!

DasFriek

02-04-2011, 08:02 PM

This message is hidden because Mr. S is on your ignore list.

Bawanna45cal: Apparently alot of friends 2150 views on this thread. Wow!

Alot,minus one.

garyb

02-07-2011, 01:43 PM

Your are 100% correct Bawanna. Good thread and I learned alot from it in many different ways. I've totally changed my carry ammo thanks to DasFriek's input.

I also learned something about forums and the limitation that written communication alone can have, vs sitting down with someone and having a healthy discussion, even disagreement. When we sit down and speak with someone, we can see the other person's expressions, hear what they mean to say and qualify if we have questions. It is a much better form of communicating than email of forums, which often stimulate problems solely on the basis of HOW we are communicating. This is a limited form of communication. I did not irritate DasFriek in this particular thread, because I happened to agree with him. But I realize that I have done so in other threads. And I appologize for doing so, because now I understand why. What I've learned is that I must (and other's should consider this - please understanding that this comment is not directed at anyone specific)...but I need to temper and qualify my written forum communications to be sure I do not offend anyone. Written communication limits what we "mean" to say, I (I'll speak for myself) sometimes I come across harsh to others when I actually don't mean to do so. It is writing style. I may mean to express my opinion which sometimes differ from other's options and interests. When I do not temper my disagreement by applying appropriate language/explanation, it inadvertently arouses conflict without me meaning to do so. I find disagreement healthy to me, because I respect diversity, without considering what the other person is thinking. But enjoying disagrement is not always the case for others and I need to learn this particularly in forums.

Therefore, I've learned that I need to express my opinion, but especially if it is causing a disagreement, I need to be quick to requalify myself in a way that respects the other person's opinion. I do not want to cause an argument, just because I have expressed my opinion inappropriately and this results in offending someone. It is not right of me to do this and I need to be sensitive to others. And if I sense that I have offended someone, I need to be quick to fix it right away, by dropping my ego and considering the other person first. I learned from this in recent forums with my forum friend - Jocko, whom I have the highest respect. He has helped me in more ways than I can say to get off with the right start with my new PM40. He is a very knowledgeable man. But we won't always agree and we NEED to find ways to disagree with respect and humility. I think we can do this. We can both be strong willed and opinionated, and we have butted heads. I am sincerely sorry for that. Fortunately, Jocko and I have hopefully worked things out privately and I know I have learned from it. I AM SORRY Jocko, my good forum buddy and fellow archer. I hope going forward we will deal with eachother in a much more respectful manner. I know I will. And I hope you will accept this apology from me. As Kramer once said on Sienfeld "Don't look at me...I'm hideous"...haha.

I hope others on the forum can learn from my mistakes and I hope everyone can put negative issues behind them by writing it out better in the future. The forum is here to help us, not damage relationships. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks.

xzhync

02-07-2011, 02:10 PM

Mr. S

02-07-2011, 08:12 PM

If the guy feels so strongly in his concerns he should bring up a class action suit against Speer for knowingly endangering lives. My point is one guy shooting stuff in his back yard doesn't tarnish we well known round like the GD imo one bit.

And guys please if you see something im making a mistake on or just completely wrong point it out. I don't argue points or facts or theories but i feel we all have the right to an opinion and try and leave it like that.
But if im dead wrong making a mistake pls say something as i make stakes.

The first quote here is actually very childish(much like post #91) considering the person whose test I quoted has probably forgotten more about ballistics than the poster will ever know.(Google Doctor Gary Roberts if you must)) And later on he realized he was wrong about the "shooting stuff in his backyard" part.

The second quote speaks for itself.
I never flat out told him he was wrong even though he invited someone to do it if he was.So why post that if you are going to get offended that easily when someone questions you on something you post?

So if anyone needs a "Dr. Phil moment" it is surely not me.

copterdrvr

02-07-2011, 08:16 PM

It can't, based on physics. Hydrostatic shock is accomplished by an object moving at high velocity and imparting it's energy in a target. A heavy bullet doesn't impart more energy in it's target BECAUSE it's moving a a lower velocity.

Example:

Corbon 115 grain JHP = 465 footpounds of energy
Remington Golden Saber 147 grain JHP = 320 footpounds of energy

Bottom line for me equals faster follow-up shot, higher energy dump=quicker incapacitation of intended target, more fun to shoot!!!! If you want to shoot a 147 grn bullet, get a 40 SW. Heck, I shoot 135 grain bullets in my 40-low recoil, and bigtime energy (507 ft pounds energy) as compared to 392 ft-pounds for a 180 grain hollowpoint.

Velocity, my friend, is the KEY!!!

joshh

02-08-2011, 10:45 AM

I know I jumped into this discussion far too late and if everyone is tired of it then please just tell me to shut-up. My question, should anyone choose to entertain it, is in regards to the difference in a 147 grain vs. 124 grain. There have been some folks on this thread saying that the 147 grain performs better in the short barrel (3" barrel) that many of our Kahr pistols have. I am confused at that. I had read in the past that the heavier bullet slows down less (as a percentage) than does a lighter bullet, but it seems like the performance stats of a 124 +p are so much higher than a 147 (as far as fps and fpe) that the 147 grain would still have lower performance. In other words, if say the 124 +p looses 10% in a 3" barrel (vs. a 4" barrel) and the 147 grain loses say 5%, but the 124 +p starts out at around 1150 fps and 395 fpe...and the 147 starts out at 1000 fps and 320 fpe (just estimating numbers) wouldn't the 124+p still end up with higher fps and fpe? How could the 147 actually hit harder and expand more?

I am all for using 147 grain. I even bought some from LGAmmo, but I still don't understand how it can actually perform better than 124+p. In a few videos I saw on youtube, it looked like 147 grain tended to penetrate deeper, but didn't expand quite as much on average?

Thanks to anyone willing to answer my (probably) uneducated questions?

When we redesigned the Ranger T Series of ammunition we widened the velocity window under which the round would expand to allow for the slower velocities that shorter than standard barrels produce. What this means is that if you own a standard or sub compact pistol the round should have adequate expansion. In 9mm I would recommend the 147 grain bullet as it loses a lower velocity percentage than the faster lighter bullet in shorter than normal barrels. This is because the bullet has more dwell time in the bore and has a greater opportunity to burn the powder before the bullet exits the bore. Powder that is burned outside the bore does nothing for velocity. The lighter faster bullets generally have more powder to burn and since the lighter faster bullets have less time in the bore they are not efficient burners of powder in the shorter barrels.

We increased the velocity window under which the round would expand by increasing the size of the hollowpoint, tweaking the jacket thickness and the depth of the cuts on the inside of the jacket petal segments.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

I hope this helps.

joshh

02-08-2011, 10:53 AM

i took that response from someone elses post because i no longer have the report from winchester but that pretty much sums it up. the first to recommend the 147gr to me was a leo i know who is very knowledgeable and passionate about firearms which is what got me into the 147gr for my pm9. ive done some backyard ballists tests with it too and have had the best results with the 147gr. give em a try and see what results you get. if anything it'll make for some fun shooting even if you decide its not for you. i dont think anyone could go wrong with most of todays modern rounds.

Goffman

02-10-2011, 09:55 PM

I know I jumped into this discussion far too late and if everyone is tired of it then please just tell me to shut-up. My question, should anyone choose to entertain it, is in regards to the difference in a 147 grain vs. 124 grain. There have been some folks on this thread saying that the 147 grain performs better in the short barrel (3" barrel) that many of our Kahr pistols have. I am confused at that. I had read in the past that the heavier bullet slows down less (as a percentage) than does a lighter bullet, but it seems like the performance stats of a 124 +p are so much higher than a 147 (as far as fps and fpe) that the 147 grain would still have lower performance. In other words, if say the 124 +p looses 10% in a 3" barrel (vs. a 4" barrel) and the 147 grain loses say 5%, but the 124 +p starts out at around 1150 fps and 395 fpe...and the 147 starts out at 1000 fps and 320 fpe (just estimating numbers) wouldn't the 124+p still end up with higher fps and fpe? How could the 147 actually hit harder and expand more?

I am all for using 147 grain. I even bought some from LGAmmo, but I still don't understand how it can actually perform better than 124+p. In a few videos I saw on youtube, it looked like 147 grain tended to penetrate deeper, but didn't expand quite as much on average?

Thanks to anyone willing to answer my (probably) uneducated questions?

You're correct about your assertion here. The problem is in the definition of "performance". Folks tend not to provide a concrete definition of the word "performance" when they make claims that X performs better than Y. For example, is performance referring mainly to velocity, to energy, to momentum, to expansion, etc.?

In short barrels, the 124 has considerably higher velocity than does the 147, and, despite the difference in mass, the excess velocity of the 124 provides a meaningful advantage in energy. This holds true even for the standard pressure 124 versus the 147. The difference in momentum, though, is not great. Hence, the 147 moves at a slower velocity than the 124, tends to expand less, and penetrates slightly more, all else being equal.

It's true that the 147 loses less velocity (see http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/) in short barrels than does the 124, but the 147 is starting at such a disadvantage in terms of velocity that the lower "loss" can't make up for the initial disadvantage. That isn't to suggest that the 147 doesn't "perform well", whatever that means. Whether it performs well or not depends on the definition of "performance". Using more concrete terms, though, the velocity of the 147 is notably lower than the 124 even in short barrels.

DKD

02-11-2011, 10:32 AM

All of what JOSHH said was true and accurate. The only thing that wasn't mentioned is that one also has to take into account not only the powder charge weight but the burn rate of the powder.
One has to be aware that a critical balance of pwoder charge, vs rate of burn has to be balanced to accommodate the shorter barreled hand guns. Most heavier slugs from a given calibre tend to use a slightly slower burn rate powder...hense a longer dwell time of the bullet in the barrel to utilize the powder charge. many of the better manufactrures have been tring to find a compatable faster burn powder that would be consumed in the shorter barrel carry guns to maximize the muzzle velocity of a given bullet. The faster burn rate powder also tends to have the added advantage of a lower muzzle flash, desirable in low light conditions making follow up shots easier without lose of your night vision.
I personally prefer the 124 grainers in my 9mm pistols, to ensure the better chance of bullet obturation due to the higher muzzle velocity. Please keep in mind the design of the bullet plays a key roll on whether the bullet will expand at a given velocity.
whew...! that was a mouth full.