Safeties on pocket guns

[CS534]

Early on yet but it looks like 2011 is the year of the pocket 9. Seems like everyone is out to make the PM competitor models, even Kimber? Wow. Well hey I'm in the market for a good pocket 9 for a backup and with some of the new guns coming out with safeties I'm deterred. It can, has been, and will always be argued about the fact that guns don't need to have them, except to sell in certain areas. I personally don't like them and neither do many others. The new LC9 (PF9 look alike) was probably gonna be on my list until I saw it had a safety. In reading some comments it seems that there are alot of others that feel that way.

Here is an idea I had. I'm not sure if this is or has been a feature before, but what if the manufacturer incorporated a safety removal system or block off which would allow the owner to decide if they wanted the safety or not. Not sure if it would be legal in certain states but for the rest of us who don't want them it would be perfect.

[mr surveyor]

having followed the information trail leaking out about the Kimber Solo, like it or not, I think the safety IS necessary. If it is in fact a fully kocked (trying to beat the silly grammer nanny) Single Action Striker Fired handgun it would be similar to carrying a Colt Mustang or Sig P238 with the hammer back over a live round... you WOULD want the external safety. Same as carrying any 1911in the kocked and locked condition, although the 1911 has the added safety of the grip safety. As far as the Ruger needing the external safety, I think it's a market ploy to hit a market in "unfriendly states", as well as to cow down to demands by the ignorant. The DA pistols offered by Kahr, Sig, KelTec and others are totally safe, without external safety devices, by design. I would not carry my 1911 without the hammer back, and the safety on, and from what I read, the Solo would be the same... only striker fired rather than hammer fired. I would NOT buy a Kahr, Sig, Ruger or other that had a totally unnecessary safety lever installed.

And, I don't pocket carry anyway... at least not in a pants pocket. I consider that to be unsafe as a defensive carry method for me.


surv

[CS534]

I wasnt talking to single actions or 1911 style pistols, more to dao or striker fired

[mr surveyor]

well.... you did mention the new Kimber offering. That was exactly what I was referring to. I believe it IS a SA pistol, although striker fired, and NOT a DAO as you seem to suggest.

Otherwise, I was in total agreement with you concerning the addition of an external safety on a safe action DA pistol.


surv:cool:

[CS534]

I'll be honest, I know nothing much about the solo. Just assumed it was a dao

[mr surveyor]

no problem from me:)

just from initial appearances, I also "assumed" it to be another attempt to clone something like the Kahr, and add the Kali compliant external safety crap to hit a niche market as others seem to be doing.

As for your original argument that external safety mechanisms are totally unnecessary on safe action DAO pistols, I still agree with you 100%.


surv

[garyb]

Mr surveyor, You helped me by answering a question I posted in another thread. Now I see why certain guns would require use of their external safety. I was eroneously thinking you could simply leave the safety in the fire mode and ignore it, hence eliminating the issue of having the safety in safe mode. This is not a wise thing to do with some guns that would be unsafe to carry in the fire mode. I understand now... Thanks.

[ripley16]

I cut my pocket gun teeth carrying a Seecamp, so a long, somewhat heavy pull is all the safety I'm looking for. However, so long as a manual safety has a positive OFF setting, I may consider it. If the safety were too easily manipulated, I would pass on the gun.

I doubt any gun manufaturer would ever produce a user modifiable product. Too much liability. Offering two different trigger groups or a model with or without a safety is how gun makers solve the problem today and probably will in the future.

CS534, it sounds like the new Sig P290 is your next micro 9.

[CS534]

I have the LCP and really like the da pull, the Sig 290 looks like a winner. A clear competitor to the PM series.

[joshh]

just turn off the safety if you dont want it on! i live in MA, had to buy the compliant pm9 and initially thought i would never carry with the safety on, but that has NOT been the case at all. i practice flipping it off while drawing and dont feel it slows me at all. until i bought the pm9 my carry was a .40 glock22 and i always carried round chambered without an issue. i have always been taught a proper holster (and common sense) is the best safety but there are a lot out there that like the idea of a trigger safety. my friend would never carry with a chambered round until he tried my pm9 then he went & bought his own because of that feature.

[garyb]

Joshh, I would have never expected that I would purchase a gun without a safety and carry it with one in the pipe. But now that I have my PM40, I feel it is a very safe gun....good, safe trigger system. I agree that key safety elements are a proper holster and common sense. However, there are guns out there that are not as safe with one in the pipe and hence they have an external safety which should probably be used in that case. Turning the safety off on certain types of guns (ie., single action striker - like carrying with the hammer back) might not be a wise choice. Mr surveyor makes a good point in this thread.

[earle8888]

Guys-- on a different thread earlier, discussions occurred re: safety's. As I stated then and now-- The only safe gun is an unloaded weapon, period!! That said, the new double action only with a non-centrifical striker is as safe as it gets. The older 1911, Hi-Power, etc. with centrifical firing pin and hammer are, IMHO and training, never are safe with one in the chamber. That means NO COCKED and LOCKED, contrary to some organizations.
Regarding thumbing of an external safety during draw, is similar to but not exact like raking the slide. This once-upon-a-time was called "SAS" draw. Utilized by the British SAS with their then Hi-Power carry weapon.

[jocko]

I just think we make to much to do with the manual safety stuff. Kahrs don't have them, that is nice, had they had one on my PM9 when I bought it, I would have still bought it.

It's a choice and there are alot of guns out there to make that choice also. No doubt if everyone kept their finger up their nose instead in the trigger guard, we would not need safetys. Common sense plays a major part of any safety device and if you think all gun owners have good common sense---well IMO u have another think coming..

if u talk to the cocked and locked boys, they will tell u it is as safe as any gun, course I do think those guys are keeping their trigger finger in their noses to. I think also this thumb on the safety stuff when drawing is much much over played, kinda like scenario type stuff. If u know your gun, it will not happen and again we are not fat drawing anyone. I never heard of any inside waist band carry as being a fast draw area. certainly pocket carry is not, certainly ankle carry is not. and certainly there are some outside waist band rigs that will allow this type of "fast" draw Marshall dillon stuff, if that floats your boat.
Nice to be prepared to but I never got paranoia over this type of stuff either. the fact that I carry 24/7 in an position that one would say is not a fast draw area if far far better than the gun sitting at home. I have always felt that concealment is the best defense to a good offense...

[garyb]

Sounds like we are all pretty much on the same page. Good to think about safety and the Kahrs have it built in as best as possible, while the rest is up to us.

[busteddrum]

Hey, I am new here (intro in another thread). I have settled on either a PM9 or a PM45. Some of the opinions I've read are against SA pistols "kocked and locked" with the manual safety set and being used as a pocket pistol. Other than having to release the safety prior to firing, what are the personal safety issues? Worried about AD by accidental safety release? Would a proper pocket holster prevent those problems?. Thanks for any info.

[Bawanna]

Hey, I am new here (intro in another thread). I have settled on either a PM9 or a PM45. Some of the opinions I've read are against SA pistols "kocked and locked" with the manual safety set and being used as a pocket pistol. Other than having to release the safety prior to firing, what are the personal safety issues? Worried about AD by accidental safety release? Would a proper pocket holster prevent those problems?. Thanks for any info.

I think you pretty much called it. Too easy for bad things to happen. Repocket your gun and neglect to put the safety on. Easy to do following an adrenaline filled incident. Not margin for error in the trigger if the safety is off.
I do carry a 1911 in a belt rig so I'm ok with the hammer back safety on mode but I'd not relish carrying anything in my pocket like that.
Like the Colt Mustang or the Baby Browning or the Colt vest pocket, the last two are striker fired and the safety is a little different than a 1911 but I have to think is safety on up or down. I never pocket carry anything but if I did it wouldn't be one of those.

[noslolo]

It took a while but after a couple years of carrying I switched from a single action in condition 2 to a condition 1. I was comfortable with that, but my wife never was. I bought a Kahr CW40 and now she is ok with it??? I would never carry a single action in condition 0. it would have to have a safety.

[O'Dell]

This subject seems to go on forever on every gun forum, and I doubt that many people are going to change their minds. Personally, if a gun is offered with a manual safety, I take it, be that gun a SA, DA, DA/SA, or any combination thereof. It probably comes from the fact that I started buying pistols in the sixties when most guns had safeties and probably weren't safe without them. 1911's and HP's come to mind, and those were my first pistols. If a modern pistol can be considered safe w/o a safety like my Kahr, SIG's, or LCP, I will use it. If I don't consider [notice I said I] it safe like a Glock or my M&P, [mine has a safety] and I still want the gun, I just won't put a round in the chamber. It's a personal choice and pretty simple really.

[jocko]

O'dell


well said!!

[deadhead1971]

I think the trend is heading towards sub-compact 9s. 380 ammo has been hard to find for a long time. Yea, you can order it on-line but the shops around here don't have any or very little. Last year because of the ammo shortage, I heard folks were ditching their 380s in favor of 9s.

[jocko]

ur dead on deadhead. The market has all kinds of 380's. It was time for the single stack sub 9's to make their debut. Next will be 40's and 45''s just a normal transistion.

competition just makes better products appear.

[earle8888]

CORRECTION--
I am on the record stating cocked&locked on 1911 not safe. That was based on extensive training. I guess part of that training was DON"T CHALLENGE THE TRAINER.
I have been reviewing my position and am now willing to change!!!!
Cocked and locked can be safe to carry.