Win Black Talons

[garyb]

Anyone have an accurate history of why Winchester Black Talons were dropped as LE carry ammo?

My understanding from a local friend in LE is that the name Black Talon stimulate a public or media outcry which caused Winchester to drop the name and color, changing the designation to 'T' which is the same basic ammo. I am told that this later saw additional versions in the ammo (ie., SXT, etc...) but again, it is said to be the same basic ammo. Now Win has the bonded version of the PDX.

I do not know if these details are complete or factual. I suspect there is more info out there to be learned on this subject. Perhaps that is all there is to it. I am simply curious to know the history of this ammo and why LE dropped Winchester from their carry ammo. Anyone know the entire scoop on these issues?

Thank you.

[Bawanna]

Law Enforcement did not drop the winchester line. We carry it as duty ammunition and always have. SXT translates to Same Exact Thing. I verified this at a Winchester ballistics seminar. The tip is no longer black but otherwise its the Same Exact Thing. Don't share this with your local media.
The media hype led the public outcry and it got labeled as the cop killer bullet. It was originally marketed strictly for LE use. Like so many other things it didn't take long for that to change and it became available to everyone.
No matter, all bullets hurt and most will leave a mark.

[garyb]

Thanks Bawanna. That's funny about the SXT designation. Never would have figured that out. I am curious if it could it be that perhaps it is just a local decision to drop that line of LE carry ammo, as this LE described it to me that they dropped it in this area; and that other areas/states still carry it? Apparently here, they carry Fed Hydrashoks now. My LE buddy did not seem to be concerned about that....but of course, he just retired too.

Otherwise it sounds like the info he relayed to me is relatively consistent with what you are saying and probably not much more to this issue. I was just curious to know. Not to worry...no need to stir up the pot with the media. They find enough crap to smear on their own. I just got in some Win 'T' ammo and am anxious to put it through my PM. Thanks again.

[Chuck54]

maybe officers calling the round black felons had something to do with the renaming

[BuckeyeBlast]

I remember hearing a lawyer in a racially charged police shooting saying "Not only are the police targeting black youths, they even have special bullets to shoot them with.." That was the death of the "Black Talon" name.

My question though is - who cares? Over the last decade there have been advances in ammo where Black Talon / SXT isn't the holy grail it used to be. I'll take Critical Defense over Black Talon's any day. I think it's just more of the 'want what you can't have' thing.

[Bawanna]

I remember hearing a lawyer in a racially charged police shooting saying "Not only are the police targeting black youths, they even have special bullets to shoot them with.." That was the death of the "Black Talon" name.

My question though is - who cares? Over the last decade there have been advances in ammo where Black Talon / SXT isn't the holy grail it used to be. I'll take Critical Defense over Black Talon's any day. I think it's just more of the 'want what you can't have' thing.

Exactomundo! You nailed this one.

[joshh]

i was told pretty much the same thing. most leo's i know as well as the fbi have switched to the win pdx which is also the same but is bonded with a better process to prevent jacket separation. yes, they still have talons!
good report here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

[CharlieW]

Win Black Talons !!

Darn, I thought it was a contest and I had a chance.

[garyb]

Thanks guys. Lots of good ammo out there to choose from...that's for sure. The Win SXT's are available and you can have them at a good price. I was merely curious about the history of the product/name change and my question was answered. Thanks a bunch for the info.

[Rubb]

I still have some 9mm 147's...wonder if they're collectors items now

[jocko]

according to Bawanna,a the black talon today is exactly the same only the name has been changed to SXT (same exact thing). with no black painted tips

[wyntrout]

You can still find some of the original Black Talons at ridiculous prices... upwards of $100 a box!! There are many kinds of better ammo available without the hype and the absurd cost!!

Wynn:)

[aray]

You can still find some of the original Black Talons at ridiculous prices... upwards of $100 a box!! There are many kinds of better ammo available without the hype and the absurd cost!!

Wynn:)

You're kidding! I have probably a half a dozen boxes or so squirreled away in a box somewhere downstairs. I never knew they were a collector's item! Now I know how to pay for my new CM9, eh? :)

Indeed I just shot 20-30 rounds last year at a range just to see how the "old" ammo held up over time. Guess in hindsight those were the most expensive 9mm rounds I ever shot!

[wyntrout]

I think there are buyers out there willing to pay more than a couple of bucks per bullet for collecting AND some looking for the mythical "magic" bullets. I would sell them and get some SXT's or some other newer and maybe more advanced ones.

JMHO

Wynn:D

[garyb]

I would sell them and get some SXT's or some other newer and maybe more advanced ones.

+1. Especially considering the SXT's are the same exact thing as the Black Talons anyway. The new bonded version PDX are the same thing as the SXT, only they are bonded. They expand nice too, but for the price of a chump box of 20 PDX's, you can still buy a box of 50 of the SXT's and there is really not a huge difference between the two rounds. One not bonded (SXT) vs bonded (PDX). OR just as good, I'd probably carry those black talons that you have squirreled away. I wouldn't think there was anything wrong with them, considering they are the same exact thing as the SXT's. Went full circle on that discussion....haha.

[joshh]

i went to a gun show here in Mass a few weeks ago and there was a guy selling them in 9mm as for $5/ea or $100/box. he had a sign that said "collectible, pre-ban, black talons (aka cop killers)"
1st thing i thought of was: if i reloaded i'd popa bunch of sxt's apart & anodize the copper black and put em back together to make some profits!
if i had a box now i'd keep one to throw on shelf and sell the rest to people willing to pay $5 each for em.

[hotpig]

I'm a Winchester Ranger dealer so I guess I will put my .02 worth in. Same eXact Thing just depends upon what Ranger SXT you are talking about. The Ranger in the white 20 round box with a nickle case and black lubalux bullet are repackaged Black Talons.

Ranger SXT in the 50 round box with the black bullet and brass case not the Same eXact Thing. Still a SXT Design but spec changes were done.

In short Ranger SXT in a 20 round box Same eXact Thing. 50 round box not Same eXact Thing.

In 1998 Winchester started fazing the Ranger SXT out of production. This took about two years before the SXT was completely done away with and the T-Series was in full production. Note however last year Winchester did release some RA9SXT without the black bullet. This was a one shot deal and has been sold out for a while at most places.

The Ranger T-Series is still a reverse tapper bullet so it is a SXT. The box art retained SXT on it and that has caused a lot of confusion. The Ranger SXT had part numbers ending in SXT. RA9SXT, RA40SXT RA45SXT etc. Ranger T-Series has part number RA9T, RA40T, RA45T etc.

In 2008 Winchester updated the T-Series or T-Series Enhanced. The part numbers stayed the same RA9T, RA40T, RA45T etc. They dropped the SXT from the box art.

Ranger Bonded look like a SXT except for the 9mm. The 9mm uses the old bullet that looks like a conventional hp not the PDX1 like the other calibers use. The Ranger Bonded came out in 2004 and replaced the Ranger Partition Gold.

[Barth]

according to Bawanna,a the black talon today is exactly the same only the name has been changed to SXT (same exact thing). with no black painted tips

Isn't talking about ammo fun?
Black Talon - Generation 1
SXT - Generation 2
Ranger T-Series - Generation 3

This is like a family tree.
All three are related and different.

[hotpig]

Isn't talking about ammo fun?
Black Talon - Generation 1
SXT - Generation 2
Ranger T-Series - Generation 3
Ranger T-Series Enhanced Generation 4

This is like a family tree.
All three are related and different. Added the 4th generation.

[JFootin]

I thought you were going to tell us how we can WIN some Black Talons! :confused:

[earle8888]

I kind of remember something in [I]the media[I] hysteria about the pedals opening up like razor blades and a danger to surgical staff trying to remove the bullet!

[hotpig]

When I teach EMS classes often I will pass around various expanded hollow points. Someone always pokes themselves with a BT or Ranger bullet.

[paul34]

Wait, how do I win the ammo??

[Vanzpp]

Do they even make the SXT's anymore? I can't find them. Now Winchester is selling their version of a "bonded" HP round.

[Barth]

Do they even make the SXT's anymore? I can't find them. Now Winchester is selling their version of a "bonded" HP round.

RANGER
FMJ-E
Frangible
Full Metal Jacket
JHP
Partition Gold®
T-Series

http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/default.aspx

[HadEmAll]

This is when I first heard bad press, deserved or not, about the Black Talon:

"The first shooting which brought critical media attention to Black Talon was by Gian Luigi Ferri, who used Black Talon and other ammunition to shoot 15 people at a San Francisco law office in 1993; nine of whom died. Dr. Boyd Stevens, the San Francisco Medical Examiner who performed the autopsies, later reported at the 1994 International Wound Ballistics Association's conference in Sacramento that the wound trauma caused by Black Talons was unremarkable and that all victims died due to penetration of a vital structure.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon#cite_note-5) The latter was never reported by the main-stream news media."

Also, it got more bad press when used in this incident:

The ammunition was used by the gunman of the 1993 Long Island Railroad mass murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson_%28convict%29). In 1996 a lawsuit was subsequently filed by one of the victim's family members (McCarthy v. Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc., 916 F.Supp. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996)) claiming that Olin Corp. should be liable for the shooting spree based on the design, manufacture, marketing, and sale of Black Talon ammunition. The claims against Olin were dismissed because it was held that the bullets were not defectively designed.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon#cite_note-10)

The perpetrator was black, by the way.

[hotpig]

RANGER
FMJ-E
Frangible
Full Metal Jacket
JHP
Partition Gold®
T-Series

http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/default.aspx

Partition Gold was replaced by the bonded about seven years ago.

[Barth]

Partition Gold was replaced by the bonded about seven years ago.

Tell Winchester it's their website...

[hotpig]

They are very slow updating the web site. I took years for them to even post info on the T-Series ammo.