"One in the pipe?"

[RONDO]

I've been reading various threads on various forums and I just don't get it! :eek: Why would you not always carry with a loaded chamber? :confused: If the reason is safety, ... the whole reason for CCW is safety! That way you're armed if a bad situation arises. Without "one in the pipe", you're not really armed, ... you're actually armed in a second or two. :( ...in the time it takes you to chamber a round, the BG will now perceive that you intend to shoot him, and He will be in charge of what happens next! :( .... unless that genius has an empty chamber as well !!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Indigo]

I've been reading various threads on various forums and I just don't get it! :eek: Why would you not always carry with a loaded chamber? :confused: If the reason is safety, ... the whole reason for CCW is safety! That way you're armed if a bad situation arises. Without "one in the pipe", you're not really armed, ... you're actually armed in a second or two. :( ...in the time it takes you to chamber a round, the BG will now perceive that you intend to shoot him, and He will be in charge of what happens next! :( .... unless that genius has an empty chamber as well !!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I think people subscribe to the idea of "oh no what if it goes off"..... But that's pretty much the point of a gun in the first place. If you're afraid of it don't have it in the first place.

[CS534]

Hollywood, the media, anti gun activists are mostly to blame. The portrayal of guns discharging on there own and other oddities occuring are pure fiction and uninformed or undereducated gun owners believe this stuff. Its pretty comical when someon asks if I keep a round in the chamber, or if they should... "hold on Mr. Robber while I rack my slide"

[Dietrich]

In my opinion,not having a round in the chamber is a recipe for failure if you intend to defend yourself.Maybe it`s a holdover from the old days when you kept your revolver on an empty chamber to prevent accidental discharges but that doesn`t apply to modern firearms.It`s the finger accidently on the trigger you have to watch out for.

[earle8888]

Dietrich -- The SAS trained and had the policy of carrying their Hi-Powers with empty chambers! They learned what became known as the SAS draw! They proved in many tests that a PROPERLY trained person (with 2 hands) would put a fired round in the proper location on target in similar time as a person carrying a Walter, HSc and similar with one in the chamber and utilizing double action trigger.
Contrary to [I]modern[I] conventional wisdom The only 'time a gun is safe is when the chamber is empty. During certain occasions "such as a gun fight" a safe gun is not most important thing!

[Popeye]

I choose to carry with one in the pipe. That's my choice. What others do is none of my business. Just do what your comfortable with.
IMO being aware of your surroundings will do more for you and keeping you out of harms way than a loaded pistol ever will.

[Longitude Zero]

If you have no round in the pipe you hae at best a short handled club. Pure and simple. Nuff said.

[joshh]

it makes no matter to me how someone else wants to carry as long as it doesnt affect me. no one should do anything they arent comfortable with when it comes to firearms. i personally carry with a full mag +1 chambered. my friend bought his MAcompliant pm9 over the walther pps because the pm9 has a safety and he wouldnt carry a chambered round without one. to each his own.
sometimes it makes no sense to determine why something makes sense to someone else.

[slowpoke]

I think it's important for a person to carry the way it's most comfortable to them, but to be consistent and practice.
I carry with one in the tube, but I have seen some shooters draw and sling-shot the slide as fast as a lot of people can draw with one in the tube.
The big difference I see is the noise. You can't be sneaky if you gota rack the slide. ... :D

[cgo99]

I agree a well trained individual is capable of anything, problem is how many of us are that well trained???
I'm going to say not many (including me), I rather not have to think about anything in a life or death situation since no one knows what your reaction is going to be. That means for me no external safeties and one in the pipe, just point and shoot but to each it's own
I wonder is is there and actual documented incident of a gun spontaneously firing on its own, it sound to me like that's just another myth.

[slowpoke]

It could be difficult to take a car jacker if you had to rack the slide while setting behind the wheel.


Here in Texas car jackers are fair game all year round with no permit required. ... :D

[garyb]

it makes no matter to me how someone else wants to carry as long as it doesnt affect me. no one should do anything they arent comfortable with when it comes to firearms. i personally carry with a full mag +1 chambered. my friend bought his MAcompliant pm9 over the walther pps because the pm9 has a safety and he wouldnt carry a chambered round without one. to each his own.
sometimes it makes no sense to determine why something makes sense to someone else.

Very well stated joshh!

[RONDO]

I also don't carry w/o a round in the chamber, pistol or revolver. But I always have to wonder why it bothers "us" what others chose to do? :confused:

Their choice, their responsibility, their consequences...

I wouldn't say it necessarily "bothers" anyone, ... anymore than someone wondering why it would. ;) ...
pas de touche'

[jocko]

It should not bother anyone and I don't think it does,but I also think when one posts on a gun forum that he doesnt carry with one in the pipe, most will wonder "why" as this is s gun forum and most do carry with one in the pipe, so if your gonna tell everyone you don't carry that way, expect to get some opinions back. Or best IMO just not even report how or why your carry . It is your personal choice what ever way you choose, ..It surely doesn't bother me one way or the other, but in my mind I question "why" could the reason be, that you don't trust yourself carrying a loaded gun or maybe you don't trust the gun being carried loaded, both are legitimate reasons for some people to. for sure error on the side of caution..

[Jeremiah/Az]

I read a lot of gun boards & I am astounded by how ignorant many gun owners are about guns, present company excepted of course. Some of the questions & statments they make, I knew better when I was 12 yrs. old, but I, like many of you have been around guns all my life. Some people sound like they are very afraid of their guns.

Back on track, what if you have one arm tied up in a scuffle? Some situations will happen up very close. It is hard to rack a gun with one hand.

[joshh]

common sense is the best safety. ive mentioned on other threads that story of the genius who carried his glock with one in the chamber loose in his sweatpants then shot his junk off in a lowes! whoops. i carry ready to go but always in a holster. i love my junk!

[Rotorflyr]

ive mentioned on other threads that story of the genius who carried his glock with one in the chamber loose in his sweatpants then shot his junk off in a lowes!

Well this poor guy either got his junk caught inside the trigger guard causing the trigger to be pulled (though it would be hard to get it shoot off, if it was inside the trigger guard) or, he simply made a grab for the falling pistol and pulled the trigger on himself.


I wonder is is there and actual documented incident of a gun spontaneously firing on its own, it sound to me like that's just another myth.

There have been recorded cases of guns firing without the trigger being pulled, pretty much in every case it's either been a really old, poorly maintained firearm, or one that was "modified" in one fashion or another (by someone who didn't know what they were doing).

As for a perfectly functional gun simply firing on it's own...well that's a different story, but if you have some spare time, you might just watch this handy dandy gun cam for a while and see if anything happens (we can also watch and see if it cause's crime):

http://montego.roughwheelers.com/Images/s&w.gif

[noslolo]

Many years ago when I bought my first hand gun, it was a Firestar M-40 in single action. I was young and dumb and I didn't want a round in the pipe.

I was in Maryland and wasn't able to carry. So at home I felt ok with it. When I moved to PA and got my LTCF, I started to carry it in condition 2 (one in the pipe and the hammer down). With more training I started to carry in condition 1 (one in the pipe, hammer cocked and the safety on).

Last year I traded the Firestar (first and only gun that I have gotten rid of) for a Kahr CW40. As much as I loved that heavy little Firestar, I have really started to love the CW40 and I would never think of not carrying without one in the pipe.

It was a learning curve for me, but I finally got it right. The weight, the size, the great trigger, man I love my CW40.

[joshh]

Well this poor guy either got his junk caught inside the trigger guard causing the trigger to be pulled (though it would be hard to get it shoot off, if it was inside the trigger guard) or, he simply made a grab for the falling pistol and pulled the trigger on himself.



yep, he was carrying loaded and unholstered, the pistol fell in his pants and as he grabbed it he pulled or pressed the trigger & it fired. i dont think a proper carry pistol that is well maintained will fire without pulling the trigger.
i'm pretty sure there is/was a big lawsuit against remington for the model 700 rifle where they actually found the rifle could fire without any pull of the trigger.

[jocko]

many lawssuits on the remington 700. MANY.

[mr surveyor]

and the media whacks that pushed the Rem 700 story didn't retract when it was discovered that the malfuntions they cited were due to users tampering with the trigger mechanisms. The 700 is not a faulty design.

[jocko]

well remington has sure lost some big lawsuits over it. One was for 14 million and if u did watch the tv program. when the Remington executive was on the stand with the 700 and was trying to show the jury and all how safe it was. THE GUN FIRED (no round in the gun of course). They lost that case big time. To many lawsuits and reports to be a non faulty design IMO...Even the original designer of the 700 trigger system said there was a fult that Remington could have taken care back many years ago for only 5 cents.

[PETE14]

I don't carry with one in the chamber (except for one instance)!

It scares people more if you jack a round in it while they are watching you. Learned that from hollywood!;)

Plus I also learned from Hollywood that I just need one shot placed anywhere from 100 yards out with a .380 to instantly kill a person so normally I just leave my clip at home!;)

I have also learned from Hollywood how to ankle carry a SW Model 29 6" .44 magnum without anyone knowing it!;)

I also learned from Hollywood that as long as I hit them once it will throw them 12 feet back into a plate glass window which will normally incapacitate them!;)

I also learned from Hollywood that most pump shotguns with no modifications will actually hold 16-18 shells!;)

Just some of the things that I have picked up from Hollywood that I thought I would spread around.

[Bawanna]

I agree with all that. I might add that Steven Segal normally gets at least 14 shots out of a 7 round mag with his ever present 1911 and I'm guessing but he must carry about 28 extra mags under his kung fu shirt.

I still love the guy. Good shooter. Great movies if you keep an extremely loose open mind.

[jocko]

he needs to go on a friggin DIET. wow, he has really hogged out. I do like the guy though, he never misses, so to me it is evident he doesnt shoot a kahr???????

He is one of thos 1911 guys but Ihave looked his 1911's over and I can't find the same model that he has that shoot 30 rounds before loading. sure looks like a single stack????

To many burgers for ol Steve

He is a big time sword collector and I think also a big time guitar collector to. so he ain't all bad, ..

[cgo99]

There have been recorded cases of guns firing without the trigger being pulled, pretty much in every case it's either been a really old, poorly maintained firearm, or one that was "modified" in one fashion or another (by someone who didn't know what they were doing).

As for a perfectly functional gun simply firing on it's own...well that's a different story, but if you have some spare time, you might just watch this handy dandy gun cam for a while and see if anything happens (we can also watch and see if it cause's crime):


Makes sense, I guess those cases are the source of the myth. Thanks.

[cgo99]

He is a big time sword collector and I think also a big time guitar collector to. so he ain't all bad, ..
I agree you can't fault a man that been a Hollywood "Star" with money still choses to be a cop for is community.

[Bawanna]

From everything I've heard and seen he really is an excellent shot, and play a very good guitar also. Most of that ninja stuff he does is the real deal too. I think hes far more genuine that most of the hollywood stars are.

Course he dont hold a candle to my dad O'Dell in his budding Hollywood career but thats a whole nother story. I heard he's been seen with Jennifer Aniston. Wow. Where's the Enquirer?

[joshh]

and the media whacks that pushed the Rem 700 story didn't retract when it was discovered that the malfuntions they cited were due to users tampering with the trigger mechanisms. The 700 is not a faulty design.

in many cases they found no evidence of tampering. im sure some people did modify the and others didnt follow the basic rules of handling a firearm but there are way too many people who have had issues with it for there to be nothing to it. not to mention the designer of the trigger system told them of the potential for problems early on and they did nothing about it until a kid got killed.

[DKD]

Gee wiz thats funny..I have owned a remmington model 700 BDL since 1970. It was an Xmass present from my father. I've killed a few deer with it, done a fair amount of shooting with, even looks brand spanking new, groups under an inch at 100 yards....now let me see...Nope no issues what ever with the trigger or safety system on the rifle...narry a one.

[jocko]

not funny really, maybe odd but when auto makers have a recall, not all recalled have ever given an issue,but there is a propencty for it to happen, when kahr recalled their PM9 barrels back when, many never sent them in for they were having zero issues..

The gun industry is totally exempt by law from a safety recall unlike the auto makers where they are over seen by the NTSB where as the gun industry is only controlled by the amout of lawsuits they get against them for a certain made product, and I think that is why today if a company thinks they have an issue, they will issue a recall. Ruger lcp was a good example. To my knowledge they never had one non safety issue but evidently in their further testing they determined they indeed did have a safety issue and addressed it asap, which at the time was around 50K of the lcp's. Today they probalby have well over 300K of them out there, so their recall in early stages today is just a niche in their bottom line. Gun companies are not required by law to have a recall, only morally and liability wise.. I am not alibing for remington one way or the other. They chose a different way to approach the issue and have many times had to pay up for it in the court system. If I remember in watching that show the designer/inventor of the trigger system that was in question felt is was a safey issue and back many years ago reported to Remington a fix that at the time would have cost (according to him) 5 cents...If I had an old style Remington 700, I would still be faithful to it but certainly I would be more aware of it to. You can't beat safety and what is between your ears, that is #1, but also if u can't control what the gun is going to do and when it is going to do it, then well, that is your decision.

[joshh]

im sure there are millions of these out there that operate perfectly. like i said "some" had issues and all probably could have been avoided if they pointed the gun in a safe direction while disarming. but im sure you would feel different if you flipped off your safety and it killed your son. i was talking to a friend about this recently and he said his father had a rifle (may not have been a rem 700) years ago that if you pulled the trigger while the safety was engaged and then later flipped the safety off it would fire. his father returned the rifle for a different model.

[WMD]

I remember when ther guy blew his foot off unloading his 700. He actually won his suit. The details are as follows:

The guy was done hunting for the day. He was sitting in his pick up with the loaded gun on his lap. The barrel was pointed at his foot. He was racking the bolt unloiading the magazine, the gun went off.

Now..... one might ask, why would you go inside your truck and unload yoru gun while it is aimed at your foot? In a lot of states, a loaded gun in a (hunting) vehicle is against the law

I have a 700 and tried to duplicate that problem a gazzilion times. I did not have the gun aimed at my foot however.... I could not get the gun to discharge in any way unless....., I squeezed the trigger.

One trick with a bolt gun, is rather then dry firing it (prior to storage), if you have the bolt open then squeeze the trigger as you are closing the bolt, it gradually releases the firing pin.

I bet this dude squeezed when he mistakenly thought he unloaded the last shell.

Kaboom.... bye bye foot! :eek:

[Bawanna]

I've always held the trigger down when I close the bolt. Just seems like less wear and unnecessary tear. Not sure where I picked up the habit but had it a long long time.

It could be those 700's will only accidently discharge if they have a viable target in front of them. A foot etc. Just a thought.

While I'm convinced by the documentary and supporting evidence that its a genuine issue I've never heard of it in actual experience. I never owned a Remington 700 but know lots of guys who do.

[jocko]

My old time hunting buddy had it happen t him but in allthese years, until he seen the documentary,he kinda thought that maybe he might have done something wrong, but now he is convinced he did not. He said, I never told anyone about this in all these years until he seen this documentary.

Has had since sent the gun back to remington to be retro fitted. He said he doesn't wantto trade it but wants to leave it to his grand kids but he wants to leave them a safe gun in his mind anyhow..

Beingin the tire business for 69 years (family owsned) I can remember the Firestone 500 fiasco, and not all of those blew out either, some swore by them, some swore at them..

[slowpoke]

I had a 700 BDL in 3006 back in the 70s. It was common knowledge among the people I knew to never trust the safety on any gun. Mine had an adjustable trigger that I set all the way down to stupid and never had an adc with it. I don't think I ever used the safety on that gun. However I didn't chamber a round till I was lined up with what ever I was shooting at..

[jocko]

in theory it is ok to not trust a safety (that is part of gun safety no doubt) but in reality, the SAFETY MUST WORK. that is why it is there, it is not a catch and catch can thing on a gun.

[slowpoke]

in theory it is ok to not trust a safety (that is part of gun safety no doubt) but in reality, the SAFETY MUST WORK. that is why it is there, it is not a catch and catch can thing on a gun.

I'm in 100% agreement with you. I also think that the safety between ones ears should be used. I don't know all the details about the horrible death of the child in the law suit against Remington. However I'm certain that if the both safeties, the one on the gun and the one between the ears were working correctly, that child would still be alive.
The fault is clearly Remington's. They installed a safety that should have worked, and consumers trusted it to work. Whats even worse is that they knew it was defective for over 40 years.

[jocko]

not just the safety's on the 700. Some went off whenthe bolt was closed. In the documentary, it showed some military snipers inpracitce closing the bolt and the gun firing..

[slowpoke]

not just the safety's on the 700. Some went off whenthe bolt was closed. In the documentary, it showed some military snipers inpracitce closing the bolt and the gun firing..

Good point.
Also a good reason not to chamber a round til the gun is pointed at a target. I'm referring to hunting rifles here. Not so good for LE & but I'm a civilian so it's my little rule for me.

[mr surveyor]

I still believe that the "documentary" on the Rem 700 was as much crap as the t.v. "documentary" on 20/20 back in the early 90's about the 1978 (+/-) Chevy pick-up truck gas tanks "blowing up". That was such a farce that the wonderful reporters gave up trying to recreate the so called problem, even after resorting to extreme application of the conditions they had to resort to the use of a bit of pyrotechnic assistance to the tank filler to get one to blow for the camera. Next thing you know everyone that had a late 70's Chevy was pissing their pants over the totally unsafe vehicle they were driving. Way too much drama in these expose' documentaries.

surv

[jocko]

no argument from me, ifyour totally comfrotable with it and don't believe any of that stuff then again it is user choice. Problem difference with the Remington and the chevy pick u- thing was that on the witness stand a Remington expert did indeed pull the safety off and the gun fired. results was a 14 million settlement. I just wold not callthat crapola, but again it is shooter choice.

[Willieboy]

I favor carrying with a round chambered. Just always made sense to me.