So I filed down the front sight on my PM9 yesterday.

[jackblack73]

In my first post on this forum I was asking for advice because my new PM9 shot low. Despite the fact that I also shot a different PM9 and didn't shoot it low, almost everyone kept saying that the problem was me and not the gun. I didn't really believe that, but I took the forum's advice and fired a few hundred more rounds. Well, I've now fired about 500 rounds total, and every one of those 500 has been low by about 2 inches at 7 yards.

By the way, here's a group I shot last week. Not only is it the best group I've shot with my PM9, it may be the best group I've ever shot with any of my guns, including a Glock and Sig. I may have shot a tighter group with my 1911, but that was only 4 shots. It's amazing how accurate these little guns can be. 5 shots at 7 yards.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/Kahr/photo4.jpg

So I contacted Kahr and they gave me a return authorization number. But I figured it would have cost me what, about $30 to ship it to them? And I couldn't be sure they would even fix the problem. Meanwhile, my gun is reliable and can shoot tight groups, it just shoots low. So instead I decided to spend $4 on a file (I already had gun blue). This is what I did.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/Kahr/3.jpg

I had a chance to shoot it today and it shoots so much better. I was shooting at an outdoor range for the first time though, so it was tough to be as precise with the wind and all. It still shoots just a little low, maybe an inch or so, but it may be good enough. I'll have to go to my regular indoor range this week to get a fair apples to apples comparison. I also shot my dad's new PM9 today, and of course it shoots dead on; not low at all.

I'm kind of wondering if I did the right thing by filing the sight. The fact that I shot two other PM9s that didn't shoot low makes me think there's really something wrong with mine, like a bad barrel or something. But now that I've already filed the sight I don't know if I can still send it to Kahr.

[Bawanna]

Your apparently using the front sight as a post and not actually using the dot which is perfectly fine if thats what it takes.
If filing the front sight down has improved things then filing a bit more would seem to improve more.
It would be interesting to see what the front sight looked like on the guns you shot well compared to yours.
I really don't think theres a barrel issue or gun issue other than maybe you have a front sight that was just too tall. Looking at your group, if there is something wrong with your gun I want to do the same wrong thing to mine.
Maybe others here could measure the height of their front sights for comparison..

You have pictures so if in fact the front sight was too tall, I suspect kahr would still take care of you.

[wyntrout]

I think my PM9 is an '06 model, so it may be a tad different from newer ones and mine has Mepro Tru Dots, but here are the dimensions for comparison:
Front sight height above base: 0.160", above frame: ~ 0.175"
Sight width: 0.14"

My "dot" is very close to the top of the sight, so I think you have a handle on your "problem". You can still remove a tad more if you want. Front sights are cheap, but with your posted group, you are doing great. I couldn't do that at 3 feet. :D

I'll post some pictures here shortly.

Wynn

[jackblack73]

My dad's PM9 is exactly like mine. New slide, new frame, standard sights, purchased within the last month and a half. The other PM9 was an older model (frame and slide) with night sights.

I didn't really inspect my dad's sight. We had a group of people so it was more hectic than I'm used to at the range. I have noticed that there's a pretty big gap between the slide and the bottom of the sight. But I figured that was there to make sure the sight didn't scratch the slide when being installed. My front sight measured .18" tall before I filed it, and .17" now. But I have a pretty crappy plastic calipers.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/Kahr/photo5.jpg

[jocko]

that sure seems odd as hell IMO. I think I would email that photo to kahr and ask them about it. I just can't believe they are doing this as SOP. addressit to

jay.dandrea@kahr.com

[wyntrout]

From the picture, I think you got the wrong front sight. I'm no expert, but there's a big gap between the frame and the bottom of the sight above the dovetail. That could catch on all kinds of stuff. If you email Kahr, send them that last picture. That seems to be your problem. I think that the assembler just grabbed the wrong front sight.
I would hope that they would cover the shipping, 'cause that can be more than you think.
When I was shipping my guns to them, it was costing them about $27 for FedEx and the same method would have cost me about $62... and that wasn't the fastest method, just the next day, instead of the next morning, including pickup.
At least you're closer now, it's just that large gap that's worrisome. Good luck.

I just used feeler gauges and got the gap under the front sights measured.

PM9 gap under front of sight: 0.017", rear: ~0.0145"

P380: 0.008", rear: ~0.0075

PM45: 0.009", rear:~0.0095"

K9: ~0.011", rear: 0.009"

Maybe this is good for comparison. My PM9 has the largest gap.

I need to get back to my plumbing. Got the wife's bathroom sink faucet replaced and still have mine to do. Hers was all hot, no cold. Upgrading to stainless single lever... had those "glass ball" thingies before... hated those.

I told her that was her (our ) Valentine's Day gift... that and going to Red Lobster... Tuesday night when she's on break.:D

Wynn:yo:

[jocko]

he can just send the slide back and not the entire gun probalby regular mail for around $5 . IMO that gap is not right at all. It looks like crapola andindeed it is gonna grab and gather crapola also.

[tconroy]

Thats interesting. My CW has the stacked dots and whatever is covered up by the front sight is what I hit.POA I guess they call it.

[Bawanna]

Dang I felt so dumb couldn't see what the heck you guys were talking about but slowly I finely saw it. I agree its WRONG. Since the gap is at an angle I'm thinking it's just a bad one. A bad casting or machining or whatever but definitely not right.

I'm with Wyn, send that picture to Kahr and send just the slide in. If your contemplating any other sights, no need to I like the standards but if you are now would be a good time to upgrade. Perhaps free installation for the trouble of replacing the wrong sight.

Worth a shot anyway. At least you've determined its the gun and not you.

If anyone has any suggestions that might work for me I'm all for it. It's always me and never the gun. Dang it anyhow.

[MikeyKahr]

But did you see that group he had!?!?

[Bawanna]

:lie:
But did you see that group he had!?!?

Well sure, give me a broken gun like that and I could shoot ragged holers at 75 yards to.
Actually I've done very similar groups:lie: some even smaller:lie:

Ok, ok, truth be told I used a pencil and poked the hole and smeared a little powder residue from the gun on the target. And I told people it was 12 shots instead of 1 pencil poke.

I just know I'm going down for this. Surely I deserve it too. Purgatorys too good for me. I'm going down............

[mr surveyor]

I was about to suggest shooting heavier/slower bullets to bring them up a bit higher on the target until I saw the pic of the mismatched sight. I agree with Jocko on just boxing up the slide in a USPS 1st class box and sending it to the mother ship. And for the problems you've had to deal with, I would ask for free night sights.... or at least new standard sights and one of those cool Kahr caps;). When you get the slide back, the sights will most likely be perfectly poa=poi.


surv

[jackblack73]

Interesting thoughts. I had thought that gap was no big deal, but maybe you guys are right. Jay is the guy I was in contact with. I'll send him an email and include a pic of the sight. But I decided I'm not going to ship the gun unless they'll pick up the tab. Unless I can ship just the slide for cheap or something. I thought some time in the future I might upgrade to the Meprolight front sight for $30. So I'd rather just order one of those now than pay to ship my gun.

As far as the sight picture I use, when I'm looking for maximum accuracy I line up the top of the sights and expect the bullet to hit in the middle of the front sight. That's worked with every gun I've shot, including the other two PM9s. However, when I'm practicing defensive shooting I just try to find that front dot, put it on the target, and pull the trigger as fast as I can. That's why I think in the future I really only care about tritium in my front sight.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

[jocko]

jackblack73 just send the darn slide in, they do notneed the gun to install new sights, that would be a good time toupgrade if theyw ill work with you on any of it, but they will relace that sight. Your groups as you can see from this forum are absollutely fantastic. Noto trying tobe criticical but I think our being to critical to on the gun and maybe yourself. I expect every shot to go where I aim also, but they do not and it certainly is not the gun either. Now you might be Todd jarrett to , who can put them exactly where he aims but most are not and that group. most all wold kill for,. Kahrs are not considered target guns, you don't have any gun with the trigger system of a kahr, it is not a target trigger in any sense of the word. Your handling one very small semi auto, not the biggest grip in the world, not the longest sight radius in the world.

I justhate it when my shot group is low AND IN THE BULLS EYE!!!!

[jackblack73]

jocko, I'm actually trying not to be so critical. That's why, if Kahr says they won't pay to ship it, I'm just going to let the issue go. As you like to say, I'm going to just shoot it like I stole it. :)

By the way, this probably doesn't mean anything, but I noticed something new. I took another picture on a white background so it would be easier to see the gap. When I zoomed in I noticed it looks like there's a crack in the base of the sight. I would have never noticed if I didn't blow up the picture though, and the sight doesn't really look damaged. Maybe it's just a surface scratch. Like I said, probably nothing.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/Kahr/Kahrsight.jpg

[jocko]

I tlooks like a surface scratch or casting scratch, but there is no doubt that sight is not correct for that gun and that photo also wold be a jim dandy for kahr to see. A shame for the gun is so dead nuts accurate. The smitty there should have caught that before it lever left the "house"..

ncie photos, send mu to kahr, they will do the right thing. but for me just send the damn slide regular mail and you willget it back pronto that way.

[tconroy]

send the slide in and let them pay for shipping and labor, asl to have the tritanium upgrade added for cost and your groups will get a lot better if thats possible. Still is is worth a shot.They will make a sale and everyone will be happy!:);)

[kramm]

Think your Dad would let you switch ouy slides or othe parts to check things out?

[jackblack73]

send the slide in and let them pay for shipping and labor, asl to have the tritanium upgrade added for cost and your groups will get a lot better if thats possible. Still is is worth a shot.They will make a sale and everyone will be happy!:);)

Well, I would love for Kahr to pay for shipping, but they won't. I've been in contact with them this morning, and they say the sight does not look right. However, I would have to pay to ship it, and I can't just send the slide only.

[Bawanna]

Hmmm thats just wrong. That looks like a crack to me and the sight is not even close to being correct.

I don't understand not being able to just send the slide. If it were mine I'd consider two options.

Send the gun (make sure you have the name of the person that told you that) along with a politely worded note that this is messed up and not your fault and they should replace the sight and refund your shipping cost since it is warranty.

The second option would be to accept poor customer service and just replace the front sight yourself or send just the slide to someone else to have their sight installed.

I have a feeling that you got hold of a less knowing person there and they don't grasp what is really going on here. Could be wrong of course. Kahrs CS has always been very good to me but sometimes they need a little gentle prodding.

[jackblack73]

Hmmm thats just wrong. That looks like a crack to me and the sight is not even close to being correct.

I don't understand not being able to just send the slide. If it were mine I'd consider two options.

Send the gun (make sure you have the name of the person that told you that) along with a politely worded note that this is messed up and not your fault and they should replace the sight and refund your shipping cost since it is warranty.

The second option would be to accept poor customer service and just replace the front sight yourself or send just the slide to someone else to have their sight installed.

I have a feeling that you got hold of a less knowing person there and they don't grasp what is really going on here. Could be wrong of course. Kahrs CS has always been very good to me but sometimes they need a little gentle prodding.

Well, I'm dealing with Jay, who was recommended by jocko. I just asked if they could just mail me a new front sight. I figure that would only cost them a few bucks. But he said their gunsmith wants to inspect and accuracy test my gun.

I do agree with your options. Although I'd add that I could just do nothing and accept that my file job has fixed my sighting issues. It's a pretty clean job too. I think most people wouldn't even notice it was filed unless they looked closely and noticed the bluing was slightly different.

To tell you the truth, I'll probably have this gun for 20+ years and this will always stick in the back of my brain. So I might be better off just sending it in with a letter like your first option.

[Bawanna]

Well, I'm dealing with Jay, who was recommended by jocko. I just asked if they could just mail me a new front sight. I figure that would only cost them a few bucks. But he said their gunsmith wants to inspect and accuracy test my gun.

I do agree with your options. Although I'd add that I could just do nothing and accept that my file job has fixed my sighting issues. It's a pretty clean job too. I think most people wouldn't even notice it was filed unless they looked closely and noticed the bluing was slightly different.

To tell you the truth, I'll probably have this gun for 20+ years and this will always stick in the back of my brain. So I might be better off just sending it in with a letter like your first option.

Kind of my thought. One reason the world is in the handbasket it's in is because we accept things that are unacceptable. I'm guilty of this as much as anyone. You paid a premium price for a premium gun and got an inferior specimen. They goofed. It happens, I don't hold that against them. It's their place to make it correct. I don't know Jay but many certainly speak highly of him. I gotta believe they will make it right if you send it in.
Like you I own my guns pretty much forever and should relate happy thoughts to them, not sore spots everytime I pick it up.
Even if you have to pay one way and they pay return at least it will be right, they should pay both ways and once they actually see it maybe they will.

[jackblack73]

I was able to pick up my dad's PM9 today to check it out. It has a similar gap as mine between the sight and slide, though maybe just a hair smaller. As a result, I'm not convinced Kahr will actually do anything if I send mine in. So I'm just going to let it go and use whatever I would have spent on shipping on ammo.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/jackblack73/Kahr/dadssight.jpg

[jocko]

well under the circumstances I have to agree with you. It looks like SOP of the guns, maybe your photo to just magnifys it more for us to see..
I did have kahr install a set of xs big dots on m PM9 and you cannot see any daylight under those sights. I still think it is not right but that isjust my opinion. It is correctable I would think by going to another brand of sight. I would be any of kahrs night sights would fit flush. I stillthink I would forward them that email photo. . you have nothing to loose..

[jackblack73]

jocko, I did send them the picture yesterday. It seems odd to me, but they told me it didn't look right, even though I now know my dad's sight looks similar. They wanted me to send it in, but they weren't going to pay for shipping. I think you're right about the large pic making it look worse. Although I noticed the dovetailed front sights on my Sig and 1911 have zero gap.

[mr surveyor]

a gap like that is a snag waiting to happen. I would NOT accept that as "normal".

[jocko]

jocko, I did send them the picture yesterday. It seems odd to me, but they told me it didn't look right, even though I now know my dad's sight looks similar. They wanted me to send it in, but they weren't going to pay for shipping. I think you're right about the large pic making it look worse. Although I noticed the dovetailed front sights on my Sig and 1911 have zero gap.

look at this way, u can send just the slide regualr mail for about $5, so that is your call to make. I would not loose alot of sleep over the $5 thiing..

[Bawanna]

look at this way, u can send just the slide regualr mail for about $5, so that is your call to make. I would not loose alot of sleep over the $5 thiing..

Except they told him to send the whole gun so they could test fire it. I'd be tempted to send just the slide myself but they told him otherwise.

Were it mine I think it would be headed for XS for big dots but some people dont like them.

[frank_drebin]

If you push hard enough they'll foot the bill for shipping. However, shipping just the slide should be cheap.

[100percent]

Excellent group. The front sight on my pm40 (with factory night sights) is elevated about .034" over the slide.

[jocko]

sounds to me like this is maybe SOP with kahrs. I can't remember wat my PM9 sight looked like as I had the xs put on a long time back and hell it might have been elevated also. I can say one thing those xs sights hug the slide totally both on my PM9 ande P380....

If I was this young man, I would bite the bullet and send the slide to xs and let theminstall their xs sights on it and just be done with it. Course that is just me, but we did have aposter on here that sent his to them and by now probably has them back

[GOOFA]

jackblack73... I would send it back and have Kahr make it right. I would eat the $5 shipping in this case or bring it up to cust svc because this is definitely an error on part of the mfr. I also think that scratch at the base of the sight is a "CRACK" due to the fact that the gap underneath the sight lends no support to the sight itself. To me, the next time that sight gets inadvertently bumped it will weaken more or crack off all together. That crack could have happened during installation at Kahr or it could of been bumped along the way before it was boxed. Their pistols aren't cheap and they need to take responsibility for their actions.

[racuda]

jackblack, if you decide to not deal with Kahr I have a sight you can have. I'll even pay for the 44 cent stamp to send it to you. I just got my slide back after they installed Meprolites and they returned the original sights. Just let me know.

[tconroy]

jackblack, if you decide to not deal with Kahr I have a sight you can have. I'll even pay for the 44 cent stamp to send it to you. I just got my slide back after they installed Meprolites and they returned the original sights. Just let me know.

Now that is what this sight is all about!! Two thumbs up to you Racuda.:D

[jackblack73]

jackblack, if you decide to not deal with Kahr I have a sight you can have. I'll even pay for the 44 cent stamp to send it to you. I just got my slide back after they installed Meprolites and they returned the original sights. Just let me know.

Thanks racuda, but that's not necessary. I appreciate the thought though.