First Range Trip: FTF light primer strikes - ammo or pistol?

[Colt41]

Well I finally got a chance to take the new PM9 up to the range this morning for the break in and had some mixed results. First of all, I took the PM9 through all of proper prep stages except for the polishing job on the feed ramp as I don't have a dremel just yet.

Through the first 150 rounds of Monarch 115 gr. brass cased ammo purchased from Academy I had absolutely no problems. 100% reliability and things were going wonderfully. The gun ran perfectly and I must say I am extremely impressed with the accuracy of this little pistol. I certainly have much room to improve but, considering the short 3" barrel, it faired far better than I anticipated. This pistol is an easy shooter.

Things were going swimmingly up to that point, where my fourth box of ammo presented several issues. I had two failures to chamber around the third and fourth round using the seven round magazine. I feel as though this may be due to shooter fatigue considering the previous 80 rds or so I put through the seven rd magazine had no problems. I'm sure a good polish job and some looking at the magazine won't hurt here either.

My main concern, however, was that I experienced three FTF's due to light primer strikes in this last box. After safely clearing the firearm each time, I checked the rounds and they showed what appears to a decent dent in each of them. I tried reloading one of these three rounds two more times with the same result, although I noticed the strike mark looked slightly off center on two of the attempts. After seeing this I decided to check the other light primer strike rounds and one of them appeared to be slightly off center as well.

I finished the session with two successful mags, but the issues experienced naturally have me concerned. I did some research on this ammo when I got back and there does seem to be a lot of people who experience issues with it, although if I had stopped at 150 rounds instead of 200 I wouldn't have a complaint to stand on.

Could these FTF's be due to the ammo or do the slightly off center strike marks indicate something may be wrong with the PM9? I'm inclined to believe it is the former but any comments and assurance would be helpful. I tried researching past threads but couldn't find any concrete evidence of this occurring with the PM9 before. Any help would be much appreciated.

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/7769/imageesm.jpg



Colt41

[jocko]

hard to say, but I would try a box of like WWB at wal mart in teh 100 Pak. . Those primer strikes should have made a bang. If it wa smy gun I would pitch tghat damn 7 round extended magazine as far as I could. Stick witht he 6 round flush fit, they just work as they should. It just seems the extended is catch and catch can. Nout sure about the fatique thing as where your having the issues with the 7 ropund mag and the rounds where it is occuring is what I just read earler on another thread of the same thing. Ihave theory's about why, but I won't go into it again. The 7 rounder shold work, but if it was mine I would send it back to kahr and ask them to send you a 6 rounder and forget about it. Before you go out and retest with another good brand of fmj ammo, spray clean that striker area good, using that little clean out hole on the bottom of the slide up by the breech face. If you read the propper prep thread in the kahr tech section it gives some good pointers.

The fact that you got 150 perfect rounds tells me those primer hits are OK. U need to eliminate the possable, lite strikes are not good but make sure all is clean in the striker channel and with different brand of ammo. Retest and if it still occurs, then you need to call and talk to kahr. use the 6 round magazine to do your retesting though. U probably dn'tneed to do a feed ramp polish but just good ol 600+ grip auto paper rolled up on a dowel will polish that feed ramp and isde the chamber perfectly. Do polish if possable inside the chamber..

keep us posted, but personally I think our gun is OK. Maybe not that 7 round mag,. You bought that gun for concealment, so that butt ugly extended magazine IMO serves little or no purpose and if it is not totally reliable, then for sure it serves no purpose..

Trade it for a 6 rounder, Kahr will do that..

[ripley16]

Looks like a case of some hard primers, but IMHO, Kahr needs to figure out how to make their strikers "strike" with more energy.

[Colt41]

Thank you for the helpful comments and advice. The funny thing is while I was walking into the range another shooter saw I had this ammo and had mentioned he had just picked some up and was having all kinds of FTEs with it out of his Taurus. So after firing the first 100 rounds I was feeling really good! After 150 I was feeling great! ... and then on the last box I was humbled, lol.

I will say, though, that I haven't compared it to any other ammo yet but the stuff is extremely dirty. When cleaning it there was a significant amount of residue just about everywhere but especially on the feedramp and in the barrel.

I'm going to pick up some 3M Brake Cleaner and 600 grit auto paper tomorrow. I'll also be contacting Kahr Monday about replacing the 7 rounder with a 6 round mag. I really would like to have two magazines I can depend on. I'll check out the WWB from Walmart this week as well. Hopefully I'll get a chance to retest everything out next weekend.

Colt41

[ltxi]

Kahrs don't like hard primers. Part of the trade off for the compact design. Not a problem with quality ammo. Why anyone would run junk ammo through a really good gun is beyond me in any event.

[tomwalshco]

.... as I don't have a dremel just yet... Colt41
Careful with that dremel - nickel plated feed ramp.


....Things were going swimmingly up to that point, where my fourth box of ammo presented several issues..... Colt41
My experience with new Kahrs is that they can be very sensitive to "shooting dirt" until it's well broken in. After 50-100 rounds in a row, it can get a little fussy. My P380 was especially touchy until I got 300-400 rounds through.


...My main concern, however, was that I experienced three FTF's due to light primer strikes in this last box. After safely clearing the firearm each time, I checked the rounds and they showed what appears to a decent dent in each of them. I tried reloading one of these three rounds two more times with the same result, although I noticed the strike mark looked slightly off center on two of the attempts. After seeing this I decided to check the other light primer strike rounds and one of them appeared to be slightly off center as well....Colt41
Probably was not getting into full battery because of the dirt in the chamber. Some ammo dirtier than others....

I always clean the striker channel on new guns. Anything could inadvertently find its way in there in the manufacturing process.

Once that chamber opens up a bit, you'll be good. Take a bore snake along with you to the range and run it through a couple of times when you're doing marathon range sessions. No worries.

[frank_drebin]

I would gladly sacrifice some trigger pull for the option of a +10% striker spring. Why Wolff doesn't offer these is beyond me. I wonder if any other springs from other guns would work.

[Jeremiah/Az]

I too would like to see heavier striker springs, especially in the P380. I have never had a misfire with it or the PM9, but the P380 striker does not seem to hit with much authority upon dry firing.

[deadhead1971]

I won't touch foreign-made ammo with a 10-foot pole. :) I hope federal is still made in the US--about $11 a box a WM.

Have you looked at the owner's manual? It states the primer strike is not dead-center--but tear drop shaped.

[ripley16]

I just went back and read my range log concerning the numerous lightstrikes I had with my CW9. The predominent ammo was Remmington UMC, but other were noted as well. It was lightstrikes on Hornady TAP, my prefered carry ammo, that really soured me on the gun. I think that the problem was as much to do with an out of spec striker as it was the spring, (which I replaced to no avail). One range visit resulted in 11 lightstrikes out of 54 rounds, another 2 out of 35, 2 out of 45, and these were all after I replaced the spring.

No other Kahrs I own have performed so poorly. Something was wrong with the gun. I gave up and traded it.

[jocko]

light strikes are a sign of something else being wrong with the gun. Not to say a heavier striker spring might over come that issue either but IMO one is just masking over the problem. I have had the 5# striker spinrg in my PM9 since almost day 1 and I have never changed it either and never a light strike, My K9 is also the same way with the same results. normally light strikes are related to trigger bar issues causing premature cocking cam release of the striker.. Kahrs normal striker spring is around 7.5# which should more than do the job, if allthings are workng as they should..

Again in a semi, it is all about timing, so many things can cause light strikes even, that we don't have any way of solving unless we have a bevy of parts sitting in front of us, including new slides.

[pappy42]

I got light strikes from not cleaning the striker channel correctly. They cleared up after folowing Jocko's advice for cleaning the channel.

[jocko]

man u got to be shooting some dirty ass ammo to clog up that striker channel. If one would just get into the habit whenever cleaning to just spray cleaner of what ever kind floats your boat even in that little clean out hole, you will never have light strikes BECAUSE of a clogged striker channel.

[sharpetop]

I had light strikes early on with my CW9. I e-mailed Kahr and their response was the ammo had hard primers. I e-mailed them back and called B.S., that I had used five different brands of ammo with same light strikes. They finaly sent me a new striker spring and recoil spring and the problem was solved. [Yes I did clean the striker channel with brake cleaner and compressed air after the first light strikes].

[pappy42]

man u got to be shooting some dirty ass ammo to clog up that striker channel. If one would just get into the habit whenever cleaning to just spray cleaner of what ever kind floats your boat even in that little clean out hole, you will never have light strikes BECAUSE of a clogged striker channel.

FWIW it looked like brass shavings (maybe primer material) and debris from the manufacturing process. When I read the posts about preping a new kahr and your posts on how to clean that channel got me curious so I pulled her down and took a look.

I know how to keep her clean there now, thanks to you.

[Colt41]

I had light strikes early on with my CW9. I e-mailed Kahr and their response was the ammo had hard primers. I e-mailed them back and called B.S., that I had used five different brands of ammo with same light strikes. They finaly sent me a new striker spring and recoil spring and the problem was solved. [Yes I did clean the striker channel with brake cleaner and compressed air after the first light strikes].

Sharpetop, were your primer strikes on those FTF's noticeably different than those that fired? At this point I couldn't clearly distinguish between the primer strikes on my FTF's and those on my spent shells, but then again I don't really have a clear way of measuring the depth of each, just eyeballing them. I'm hoping this case can be attributed to the ammo I was using.

Today I polished up the feed ramp and chamber, cleaned out the striker channel with the 3M Brake Cleaner, and picked up a 100 rd value pack of Winchester 115 gr. I'll either pick up another box of the same brand or try out a different American made ammo brand before I head to the range next. Hopefully I'll get some time next weekend.

[Colt41]

FWIW it looked like brass shavings (maybe primer material) and debris from the manufacturing process. When I read the posts about preping a new kahr and your posts on how to clean that channel got me curious so I pulled her down and took a look.

I know how to keep her clean there now, thanks to you.

Pappy,

I noticed a significant amount of these shavings in my PM9 after using the Monarch ammo. What ammo did you have that probem with?

Anything that may be in that channel is definitely gone now. That brake cleaner has some serious pressure behind it and was shooting fluid out of the channel about 2-3 feet.

[jocko]

I don't buy any of this HARD PRIMER stuff, especially in Amercian brand ammo. Makes no sense as to why a mfg=er would want to even consider that and personally I don't think they do either. Now if you have 5 primer makers, certain on a scale of 1 to 5 they willb e somewhat different but the hardest of all five which still would considered soft by all standards should work in these guns. These gun makers are just b-sing when they tell an owner that stuff, and I certainly wouldn't buy into it either.

No doubt it is our responsibility to keep our guns clean and in perfect condition. A gun maker cannot over come our neglect either. A new recoil spring is normally the culprit over any striker spring. It is allabout timing and if a gun is just the slightest out of time, you willget light strikes and what may look like a locked battery , might just not be.
Always best if issues arrive to go to new recoil springs FIRST. My gun or should I say both of my kahrs might just be an anolomy but I doubt it also. but I have the wolffs 5# striker springs in my PM9 and k9 and I have never had a light strike, and that is 5# compared to kahrs factory 7.5# springs.

[sharpetop]

Sharpetop, were your primer strikes on those FTF's noticeably different than those that fired? At this point I couldn't clearly distinguish between the primer strikes on my FTF's and those on my spent shells, but then again I don't really have a clear way of measuring the depth of each, just eyeballing them. I'm hoping this case can be attributed to the ammo I was using.

Today I polished up the feed ramp and chamber, cleaned out the striker channel with the 3M Brake Cleaner, and picked up a 100 rd value pack of Winchester 115 gr. I'll either pick up another box of the same brand or try out a different American made ammo brand before I head to the range next. Hopefully I'll get some time next weekend.

I had no way to measure the depth either.

I personally feel that the original recoil spring was weak and woudn't let the slide go fully into battery. The replacement recoil spring that was sent to me was a noticeably longer and stiffer than the original. I think this is or was a known problem. Why else would kahr send me a recoil spring? Anyhow, the parts were free and my gun now works.

[jocko]

and that indeed might solve your issues to. Recoil springs will take a set as designed by the spring makers, so that in itself is not an indication of a bad or worn out spring. U outta if all things work out keep some type of log on round count as bat you can and when you made any spring changes. Kinda give u a referecence at all times. course also recoil springs are low in price, so buy in quantities and replace at will. Doing the polishing thing IMO is just a darn good thing to do also. Your not going to polish through the nickel plating either, hell the insdie fo the barrel is nickel plated and certainly rounds down range aren't going to wear it either, so some polishing won't harm it but certainly can help it..

[Colt41]

I''m pretty sure it's not a weak recoil spring issue. Even after the 500 slide rack drill for break in and the 200 round range session this weekend this thing is still extremely stiff.

Considering I made it through about 170 rounds with no problems I'm fairly confident this was just an issue of poor quality control with the last box of ammo (Serbia imported). The seven round mag presented a couple problems but that should be an easy fix swapping it out with another six rounder.

I'll be sure to keep a round log just in case, though. I figure every 1500 rounds or so sounds like a good interval for swapping out the recoil spring.

[sharpetop]

I''m pretty sure it's not a weak recoil spring issue. Even after the 500 slide rack drill for break in and the 200 round range session this weekend this thing is still extremely stiff.

Considering I made it through about 170 rounds with no problems I'm fairly confident this was just an issue of poor quality control with the last box of ammo (Serbia imported). The seven round mag presented a couple problems but that should be an easy fix swapping it out with another six rounder.

I'll be sure to keep a round log just in case, though. I figure every 1500 rounds or so sounds like a good interval for swapping out the recoil spring.

Send Kahr an e-mail stating your issue and request a new recoil and striker spring under warranty. It never hurts to have spares even if it isn't the issue.

Yes sir, that Commi ammo from Serbia could definately be the problem. Try some American ammo.

[jocko]

well for sure your theory of bad ammo is not going to be hard to test out.Buy good american fmj ammo , start out with a well cleaned and lubed gun, with recoil springs put back correctly and just shoot it like you stole it..
IMO recoil springs should go at least 1500 rounds but just keep in mind, they are low in price to replace.. I would suggest if you have the old style slide (blunt nose) that youcan go to wolffs gunsprings.com and order their 20.5# recoil spring (just replace the outter) and it will help your PM9 in feeding issues. If you have the beveled slide, then wolffs right now does not make any springs for that new style slide yet.

[tomwalshco]

.....IMO recoil springs should go at least 1500 rounds but just keep in mind, they are low in price to replace..
Not being a smart-ass, but (doing the math) does that mean you've been through 20+ sets of new recoil springs, too?

[jocko]

I only now change the outter recoil spring in my PM9. I don't mess with the inner spring or the two peace recoil rod. I can buy just he outter spring from wolffs. We used to be able to do that with kahr to but now they only sell the entire set including the recoil captive rod and that gets very expensive.

not a smart ass question either. I can't really say how many I have changed but I would say it has been alot . I also change mag springs more often than I know one should but again I buy them from wolffs in 3 pak and when I get that wild hair, I just do it, I attribute some of that to why I have had such an excellent performing gun to, along with having an excellent gun also.

It ain't gonna be cheap like it used to be ,, jus to buy the outter springs from kahrs for around $8, and replace as needed, for now they only list it as an entire assembly including the two peace recoil rod which should never wear out or at least go maybe 10,000 rounds. Now were looking at around $24 plus postage and I have complained about that to kahr but it has feel on deaf ears. So four us blunt nose kahr owners we can buy those ouotter recoil springs from wolffs, but the new style slide owners willnot be able to buy the outter spring from wolffs (yet). and I do hope wolffs gets off thier slow asses and gets a 15 coil recoil spring (0utter) available . that spring will fit the PM9 and PM40

the PM45 owners, wow, get this the recoil rod on the beveled/undercut slides is now 1/8" longer and they will not interchange with the blunt nose style, now I don't know if they require a different length recoil spring but I would assume they do but they don't show two lengths in the kahr webb site parts listing. Again we had PM45 old style slide onwers who ordered a new recoil assembly and then posted a photo of it sticking outt eh front of the slide and asking why??/ Now is this a fokke dup mess or what?? and for what. I never have heard of any kahr owner bitching aobut the looks of the PM series guns, Glocks are blunted and some of their "copact" models show some beveleing BUT they didn't lengthen the slide, they just did a slight bevel and let it be at that. IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT..

[jocko]

probably so, one can also just buy the PM new style spring and cut two coils off the spring and it should be good to go, on the old style slide,, but as you know that is not the way gun makers sells recoil springs. They should come to you with the correct length in the first place.

ur last sentence tell it all WHY. when I inquired in to why the change, my answer back was BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE BOSS WANTED. end of story.

[DKD]

How does one tell if their PM45 is the old style or the new style??? I got mine last spring around May/june time frame. The front of the slide has the chiseled or tapered nose design.

[jocko]

measure the recoil rod. The old style will measure 2 3/8" length, the new style will measure 2 1/2" length. Measure the rod and not the spring.

[DKD]

Thanks JOCKO I appreciate the feed back. I'll go home after work and check iot out.

[jocko]

I would not trade my old out of date, old design, blunt nose PM9 for the new style , if they offered to have it signed and kissed by the kahr gal even.



WOW, I can't believe I even said that!!

[Willieboy]

Man I wih Kahr would get its act together with the PM series. So many issues. I too had problems with the seven round magazine. Four failures to feed in one hundred rounds. One failue to lock the slide back in two hundred rounds. I think that was with the 7 rounder too.

I've ordered and received 2 six round mags and will rely on these for reloads. The seven rounder is just a paper weight or range only magazine.

I hope you find satisfactory resolution with your gun.

[jocko]

Kahr will get wise some day and just issue an extra 6 round magazine with thier PM models and they will solve any issues. BUT many never have any issues with the 7 runders either, so its a crap shoot. If I wanted a 7 round magazine gun, I would have bought a cw 9 and just been done with it..

[kpm9]

I've had a lot of hard primers with Monarch. Don't blame the gun with that ammo.

[gman]

how far did your striker protrude past the breech face? I found in my P45 it was only .018, which made it sensitive to hard primers and reloads. Curious what COLT45 was

[Colt41]

Well, I finally got back to the range this past weekend with two different brands of American manufactured ammo (Winchester and Remington) and am still having light primer strike issues.:mad:

I had nine within the first 40 rounds and decided at that point this one is going to have to go back to the factory. I've contacted Kahr and it will be sent back sometime this week.

Very frustrating to say the least. No hang ups or failure to chamber using just the six round magazine and my accuracy was improved from my first range trip, but as much as I want to love this pistol I simply cannot depend on it as is with the FTF issues.

I'll keep everyone updated on my customer service experience.

[jocko]

has the gun been back to kahr yet? a shame, my bet it is an out of spec trigger bar.

[Sliebl]

I agree... it's time for a trip back to Kahr. I hope they can get it squared away for you, and you receive back a totally reliable gun. I am very fortunate that my PM9 has been 100% reliable in the 400-500 rounds fired. I bought the gun for concealed carry, and would not trust it at all if it wasn't reliable. This shouldn't be something we just hope for, but something we should expect from a premium priced firearm.

Please keep us posted when you hear from Kahr, and when you have a chance to evaluate their repair.

[Colt41]

Thanks guys.

The gun has not been back to Kahr yet. I contacted them this morning about the issue and they want to take a look at it.

Sliebl, that's exactly how I feel considering how much I paid for this gun. I do love everything about it except this nagging issue. Hopefully, like Jocko mentioned, it's something as simple as switching out an out of spec trigger bar.

I'll be sure to keep all of you posted on the process and repair work.

[frank_drebin]

My CW9 went back to Kahr 3 times for Light Strikes. They finally replaced everything but the actual frame. I was very low on Kahr for a while after that. My PM40 fixed that though...

[Colt41]

I truly hope that won't be the case here. It's enough of an inconvenience having to send it back just once. Hopefully they correct the problem the first time.