Top Shot

[Chief Joseph]

Just wondering if anyone watches that show. I really like it. When I first got my conceal carry permit I joined a fire arm forum based in my state and didn't last long. Although it sold itself as a CITIZEN carry forum, it was full of so-called "experts" and law enforcement types, one in particular who stalked the forum commenting on every post, "correcting" the ignorant members with his "expertise". I guess he owned a training facility and had this "adjudicator" that if you didn't pay him and go through it you were "unqualified" to carry. I didn't stay long with close minded know it alls like that jerk. The right to self defense is every ones right, not just the "highly trained". So on the last Top Shot, the 20 year military expert was beaten by the GOLFER who didn't even buy a gun until LAST YEAR.
As I tried to tell the "experts" at that forum, all the training in world would not help those who aren't naturally capable and those naturally capable could do the job with little training.
My attempts to show that regular joes nationwide have used their firearm to defend themselves with out their "expert" training was met with insults from those losers. And now Top Shot put it out there for ALL to see.

[recoilguy]

The guy who lost was way better with a weapon then the guy who won......Yeah golf boy is an average Schmuck (everyone likes a schmuck)who proved the "on any given sunday" theroy.

If my life were to be trusted to the guy who lost, who was trained and who had a bad minute or the goofy golfer who thinks he knows everything but is just and average schmick. The golfer is my second choice.

Now I agree many good shooters haven't had training. I also agree some with no training have defended and successfully protected themselves. I also think its silly and narrow in scope to suggest training has little merit or real world value.

Because the underdog won doesn't prove the underdog is as capable it only proves he can get lucky.

I'm not a know it all and Im not even right all the time. I'm just sayin.............

RCG

[Chief Joseph]

Yes, training is better, NOT the attitude. So those who are not physically able to "train" should be denied the right to carry? How about the Handicapped? I don't remember reading that part in the 2nd Amendment. "Any given Sunday"? The guy made it on the show, was the ONLY one to bullseye the first day and performed in ALL challenges so far. I guess that "any given Sunday" includes the other days of the week too. I think the "small mans" syndrome wins out. Guys who practice and train a lot, who have the MONEY, time to do so and the facilities to use just can't accept that people are able to do it without the smug "experts". I never said training had little merit in the real world, but unlike "those" guys, I've never said no one should carry unless they've had someone else idea of "training". On the other hand I've met many so called "experts" who have an elitist attitude that citizens should be disarmed just like the gun ban nuts. Only they want to KEEP theirs.

[Bawanna]

Chief you've hit on something that I've believed all along with the so called expert trainers wanting everyone to do the training their way, the only way and without them your nothing attitude.

That's why I'm glad in our state we don't have any training requirement for a CCW, or any shooting, just a background check and the fee. Training is a good thing without question but as a handicapped person myself it isn't always possible. I nearly went to Gunsite years ago (if only to meet Jeff Cooper in person). They said they would accomodate me and I could participate in any phase of the instruction I was capable of and watch what I couldn't. It never panned out and I regret it.
Training shouldn't be a prerequisite for concealed carry IMHO. Some basic handling instruction, safety and maintenance would be good. When you create a requirement to attend a firearms defensive carry course or whatever you want to call it, who determines how expert the instructor really is. I work closely with 3 police firearms instructors, at times they seem to be able to walk on water and are always on a higher plane than any mortal human. They teach good stuff without question and their mission in life is to save officers. Thats a good thing. It's the attitude I can do without.

For what it's worth I was routing for the military guy, I didn't like the golf instructors attitude and he did in fact win solely on blind hog luck.
I do enjoy the guys who encounter a game that is their so called forte only to find they choke and suck really bad. It just shows that overconfidence can ruin ya and even the best of the best can have a bad afternoon.

[Chief Joseph]

I was routing for the military guy too, and I also don't like Jay. But when he stated he only bought his first gun less than a year ago, and he's in there competing well, it struck something in me. I resent the arrogant gun experts more than the "golfers" attitude. Probably because I've experienced those jerks at guns stores and gun shows in person.

[Common Tater]

Training Snobs seem to exist all over the place; they are a lamentable part of our world. Who would have ever believed that there can be ten different ways to "slice the pie"?

As far as Top Shot goes, it's chief worth is in showing the non-shooting world that we're not a horde of boogey-men; that we're just normal, regular people. The scenarios portrayed in it are sometimes interesting.

CT

[Sliebl]

I was routing for the military guy too, and I also don't like Jay. But when he stated he only bought his first gun less than a year ago, and he's in there competing well, it struck something in me. I resent the arrogant gun experts more than the "golfers" attitude. Probably because I've experienced those jerks at guns stores and gun shows in person.

Count me in as another one that was routing for the military guy. He was way more proficient with the firearm than Jay, I'd venture to say due to his training. I would also say that he certainly didn't have an elitist attitude, as some training snobs (good way of putting it Tater) do.

Chief, I don't disagree with you that those that try to force the "their way or the highway" attitude on training can certainly be annoying. Fortunately, there are varying degrees of this attitude. There are some very smart individuals that exude skill, that are willing to help others without being over the top with their attitude. Hopefully, you don't classify those individuals in with the elitist snobs.

I also think that Jay exhibits some of the very same elitist attitude that you dislike. He wants to do it his way, every time. He doesn't want to listen to any constructive criticism from the show experts. He also doesn't have a good grasp of gun handling safety. One of the instructors had to take the pistol out of his hands because his finger was constantly on the trigger. He wanted to adjust the sights on the M1A to fit his sight picture, even though everyone else on the team was already sighted in.

By the way, for clarification, I am glad that I live in a state were training is not a prerequisite for attaining a LTCF (License to carry), or for exercising my right to defend myself. But, I do believe training is a good thing when it is practical from a physical, and monetary stand point. Upping your skills might pay off if you ever need to use your gun for self-defense.

[cgo99]

Same here, I was routing for the military guy. If Jay says that he bought is first gun a year ago all the more power to him but he does not strike me like a trustworthy guy, who knows if that's true or he just says it to make himself look better. I would not put it past him.
That been said it is true that there is natural talent component, in my case I have to train to overcome my natural lack of talent and yet my wife that has picked a gun twice in her life and she is scary good (really scary) :behindsofa:

[jocko]

quote:Who would have ever believed that there can be ten different ways to "slice the pie


you mean common tater after 67 years of living here that there really isn't 10 different ways to slice the pie? oh my, now you have fokked my life up really good now. I will never eat a peace of pie again either. thank u so much--I THINK!

[jfrey]

Those folks on Top Shot are each supposed to be an expert in one form or another in some shooting game. I'm not bragging at all, but I'll shoot with them any day. They don't show me a lot if that is the best they can do with all the training they are supposed to have. Me, Jocko, Bawanna, Chief and Old Lincoln could go against that bunch and have a good chance to win.

Did anyone see them shooting the M1A in the last episode? I got a good laugh out of that. Sure, sights look different to each shooter, but not a descent 3" group from a one of them.

[jlottmc]

I gotta agree with everything said up til now. Training is a good thing, but it is not the be all end all. I know of some Marines that while being considered highly trained and all that, that I would not trust butter knife, let alone a mk-19. I tried to help the ones I could, and that were open to learning, but that was a small group.

[Bawanna]

Count me in, sign me up for the zip line. I'll probably be first voted out but I'll try not to let the team down long as I'm there.

[earle8888]

guess I fall into the elitist group! Their is no doubt that luck can play a BIG role in any activity/event, BUT, When things happen quickly and unexpectedly and , THUS, You react the training will prevail or control reactions. Thus training is CRITICAL in the moments of a life and death situation. Training is also mental attitude adjusting. We claim, (and I believe), we have the best trained military. This is proven when sh......t happens. Realized AFTER the event. I would not agree with Bawana this time.-- I believe everyone should have an/a education/class covering the use and liability/responsibility of-the-use-of-deadly-force.

[Bawanna]

I agree with you Earl in that everyone should have. I just don't agree with it being government (at any level) mandated.
I don't want the state to say ok you want a CCW permit you have to take this course by Colonel Wizzbang with a 8 month waiting period, pay 150 dollars and drink his kool aid.
I certainly don't disagree with training,training is a good thing but my choice.

I compare it to our hunter safety courses. Your required now to take this course before you can get a hunting license. I took it 40 years ago before it was required. They are hard to find and fill up fast. I took 2 of my kids and 2 other friends kids. Couple of them were a litte young like 10 but I wanted to be done with it.

Of course the instructor was the perfect example of what I hate about training. This guy was so big on himself I'm surprised we didn't have to genuflect in his presence. Typical I know everything, you know nothing and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know.
We all got through barely although I had words with him on multiple occasions during class and after.

A couple months after the class we were at a trap shooting event my son was invited too in an attempt to get him on a school sanctioned team. Didn't work cause he was in the wrong school district but the instuctor was there shooting. He stunk. My kid laughed.

Course being a hunter safety instructor and being good shots are'nt always prerequisites. Too his credit it is very difficult to become a hunter safety instructor. Probably why there are so few and hard to find courses.

[cgarcop]

Although it sold itself as a CITIZEN carry forum, it was full of so-called "experts" and law enforcement types.
I didn't stay long with close minded know it alls like that jerk. The right to self defense is every ones right. I was met with insults from those losers. And now Top Shot put it out there for ALL to see.

Yea, us law enforcement types are such elitist know it all losers and jerks. I dont know how my wife tolerated me all these years. Maybe I should be more like you and resort to cowardly name calling over the internet.

[Bawanna]

Yea, us law enforcement types are such elitist know it all losers and jerks. I dont know how my wife tolerated me all these years. Maybe I should be more like you and resort to cowardly name calling over the internet.

I truely don't think that statement was made in the context that you received it. I being a very minor player in LE didn't receive it as such.
There are a few that fit the criteria but I don't think that was what he meant.

[jocko]

OK, OK, I am going to say it.

KUDOS, CONGRATS, BIG SCORE, AMEN TO THAT. TO MY FRIEND BAWANNA HITTING THE 6000 POST TODAY.

I bow to thee OL GREAT ONE!!! damn I know that pis-es u off to..

[Bawanna]

I think I need to find a life. I really do stuff while I'm hanging out here. Especially when I'm using this slow laptop out in my man cave. Hit a button and do some stuff while I wait for it to happen.

[jimbar]

I watch Top Shot, last season as well, entertaining I think.
I had a different take than some. I too don't care for "Jay". His attitude is , to me worse than others. He has an arrogant, "I know better" manor, as not listening to people who have much more experience, and insisting on doing it "his" way.
He was selected as team leader because he IMHO, made a lucky shot on the opening challenge. If I were there, I would in no way accept him as my leader, or coach, especially after announcing he only has been shooting for a year or less. The other members have vastly more training, and I can understand their being tired of him trying to tell them how to shoot. Just my 2 cents.

On a personal note about natural talent, my friend and I went to the range last week-end. His daughter (she's 40) had always liked shooting when she was little, but had not shot a pistol in several yrs.
During the shoot, she wanted to shoot her dad's Colt .45, since she hadn't shot it before. At about 10yds, she put the first 6 out of 8 in the little red dot in the target, three more in the 9 ring.
We told her next time, she has to wear an eye patch, can only use one hand, and we'll spin her around a few times, then hand her the pistol.

(Whew, didn't mean to write a novel) http://kahrtalk.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[TheTman]

I've not seen Top Shot, but Front Sight sends me videos of their version of it. They take 4 people out of the courses they give, and have them compete with AR type rifles and whatever pistol they choose to carry. They usually pit a cop, a guy in the military and 2 average joe's, male or female. I'm surprised how well the average joe's do compared to the cops and military. One of the average Joe's won the last competition. It's not all just shooting at targets, there is a lot of movement involved and unusual shooting stations.

[Chief Joseph]

Yea, us law enforcement types are such elitist know it all losers and jerks. I dont know how my wife tolerated me all these years. Maybe I should be more like you and resort to cowardly name calling over the internet.

I didn't call all of them that, but at that particular forum, ALL of the guys who felt the need to post their "expertise" and years serving in law enforcement were JERKS and ELITIST. Don't blame me, blame your contemporaries who ARE that way. Insulting me doesn't change the FACT that there are (NOT ALL) law enforcers who don't want the public armed, and that's a FACT. I didn't start out feeling that way, just ended up there after trying to converse with them. A closed minded group of fellows I've never found elsewhere. The fact you're so insulted by this reminds me that some types shouldn't be wearing a badge and gun either, thin skinned people are the LAST who should be given a gun and authority. And let's not forget, there are large groups who don't think cops should be armed either, since they feel it's not TRAINING, but a simple shoot first and shoot at ANYTHING deemed a threat. I hold them as nuts too.
And by the way, calling me an "internet coward" while trying to hold some superior moral tone, well done, maybe hypocrite should be uttered.

[Bawanna]

Lets ease up and be nice fellas. Put the name calling and generalizing back in the closet, move on if we have too and not let the negativity escalate here.

You both have valid points but theres no real solution that I can see and nothing to solve here on the forum.

A little deep breathing, touch relaxation, and start over.

OK?

[Chief Joseph]

Lets ease up and be nice fellas. Put the name calling and generalizing back in the closet, move on if we have too and not let the negativity escalate here.

You both have valid points but theres no real solution that I can see and nothing to solve here on the forum.

A little deep breathing, touch relaxation, and start over.

OK?

I find getting out and putting a few rounds through my pm9 or cw9 relaxes me the best.

[Bawanna]

I find getting out and putting a few rounds through my pm9 or cw9 relaxes me the best.

That's perfect. Works for me as well.

[aray]

Yeah come on guys, the gun community is too small for us to be carping at each other. There are plenty of jerks, and great souls, in any random group. The badge or lack thereof are irrelevant from that perspective. Don't think there is any truth, or value, in going down that road. Certainly not helpful to kahrtalk, much less the 2A community at large.

As for Top Shot, I do think that it is great that the producers were insightful enough to select folks like Jay - a golf instructor who by his own admission had never picked up a gun until a year prior to the show. And that he won against the pro - well the shooting speaks for itself. Folks can cry luck all they want but it is up to the participants to lay down the bullets. Jay performed, his competitor did not. Same as in the Olympics - you don't get "do overs".

Indeed the guy from DHS wouldn't have been in the elimination round at all had he not had a mental lapse - twice! Plus he hit a "friendly" plate. Three major goofs in one round. I really hope this particular guy is not a Sky Marshall. Based upon his performance I'm not sure I'd want him shooting in an airplane I was on if I were downrange of his barrel. I don't think he responded well under stress, despite his training.

At the same time, Jay is not without fault either. Last week the instructor called him a "know it all". This week's instructor pretty much said the same thing using different words. By his own words Jay said he didn't want gun instruction on how to shoot better; he just wanted to know how to shoot faster. I'd kill for one-on-one time like that with an expert. Like Jay, I seem to have been born with a natural God-given talent. Wasn't my doing but I'm grateful for it. However I'm under absolutely no illusions of what I know & don't know. I welcome, indeed crave, guidance & help from the experts.

Anyway, like someone else said, the real value of the show is in letting the non-gun community see a positive perspective on gun ownership and usage. That plus the scenarios are interesting and I'd love to be able to "play" in them makes it appealing.

[WMD]

I also saw Top Shot and was not impressed by the pro shooter's performance. I was also not impressed with Jay's attitude. I caught the episode when he told the instructor "now is not the time to learn to shoot correctly". Not that I want to defend Jay but...., he has a point.

Jay knows his ability even if he is doing it incorrectly. Trying to learn a new style or technique during a competition typically ends up with bad results. How do I know this...? To coin a phrase... "Been there, done that!".

That being said, I was unhappy when Jay won the shootoff against the Pro. I do not like Jay's self centered attitude. :(

I was also surprised at the crappy shooting with the M1A's. I know they are running however, they are shooting from a rest and only at 75 and 100 yards. What's the big deal? Perhaps the wind?? Although, at those short distances, I would not have thought the wind would have been that much of a factor. :confused:

[Longitude Zero]

As in the first season it makes me wonder if some people were selected NOT based upon the ability to fire a weapon but because of the personality interactions they might cause?

Survivor has rasied the agent provacateur to a high art. Why not Top Shot. Face it folks if all it was was a bunch of folks shooting the majority of the tv watching public would get bored easily and turn to something else. Either Season 1 or 2 I would not invite many to eat at my table, maybe one or two of them.

Its called DRAMA...

[getsome]

Getting back to the natural tallent vs superior training deal I'm reminded of a story that Paul Harvey did on one of his "Now you know the rest or the story" radio bits...He told of a golfer that I had never heard of but his name was Ralph Guldahl and in 1939 he won two U.S. Opens and later the Masters that same year...Now it was said that Ralph could do things with a golf ball that had never been seen before and was the Tiger Woods of his day...After winning the Masters that year a publisher asked him to write a golf instruction book and he agreed to do it and it was called "Groove your Golf"...The book also was a flip book of photographs of Ralphs swing which would appear to be live action (Remember it was 1939 and this was prehistoric video)...Well it seems after writing that book and looking at his golf swing for the first time ole Ralph suddenly couldn't play golf worth a lick anymore...The instruction book ruined his golf game....Ralph had never taken a golf lesson in his life and was simply a natural but when he tried to analyze and teach the things that made him the best of the best, it destroyed his game...Don't know what this has to do with "Top Shot" but it is a fact that while training is good but just because your particular style doesn't fit what the books say doesn't mean what you are doing is wrong IF your way works for you...

[Bawanna]

Interesting analogy. Last weekend at the range my son was proud of me for not offering helpful criticism to a couple fellas next to me. Their grip and stance was prehistoric, cup and saucer, old revolver days. But the guy was shooting tiny little groups.

I did'nt offer to help because there was nothing to fix. He was doing it all wrong but he had good results.

[earle8888]

OK I don't want to invite Big Brother into the tent either!
speaking of Paul Harvey and such, I remember a picture or sign that said"The more I Practice the luckier I get!"

[WMD]

Well....., caught last night's episode. It actually was pretty good. I think giving them compound bows to shoot was an interesting twist. Too bad Maggy was ousted. Next week should be interesting.... timed shooting with 45's. I would think the so called experts should stand out! :D

[windsearcher]

I caught all of Season 1 and am enjoying Season 2. By no means am I anything more than competent with a handgun. I feel I'm above average with a rifle. With that type of skill level, I watch the "professionals" from last year and this, and wonder if maybe I don't give myself enough credit.

It is interesting to see the difference in the teams. Last year, the set up by the show was definitely in the Blue Team's favor. This year the groups made with a "player's choice" seems to be leaning heavily in the Red Team's favor. Interesting how even with a good group of skilled shooters, that personal interaction between the teams can have a big affect on team performance.

I am also looking forward to next week's episode. Blake and JJ from Season 1 are supposed to be there to show some of their skills... should be interesting.

[quikduk]

I like the variety of weapons they use but if these are professional shooters, most of them seem to be lacking in a skill set that should be worlds above mine and others I know that shoot. Granted they are thrown into odd challenges but aren't they supposed to be "at the top of their game"? The host just needs to shut his mouth after the initial "go" as he is annoying and I can't focus on the action with his mouth flapping.

Off soapbox now.

[aray]

Not that I could ever afford it, but what did ya'll think of that Limcat Razorcat 1911 on the show tonight? That was one mean looking gun!

They said only 100 copies were made. I wonder why?

[RONDO]

Top Shot is a "reality show", and as such has nothing to do with reality. ;) Virtually all shows in this genre possess contrived elements designed to antegonize both the participants and the viewer. :7: If these elements don't get the viewers blood pressure high enough to produce visceral debate on their own, the producers will also introduce a contrived time/deadline element, leading the "competitors" to not only bicker amongst themselves but dual against some bogus deadline.:eek: ... In short, a "reality show" like Top Shot is simply designed to manipulate the listener ... :2eek: ;) :)

[Longitude Zero]

They said only 100 copies were made. I wonder why?

Limited production keeps the price artificially HIGHER than it would be if they were in continous production. Shameless profiteering IMHO.

[Bawanna]

Them expert shooters from season one sure made them Razorcats sing though. They were flat laying em out there and hitting too.
I was shocked at the slow motion shots of the slide running and the red dot and mount looked like it was mounted on rubber bands, it was flopping all over the place or at least gave that perception.

Be fun to play with one. It didn't occur to me till my kid went and looked them up that those are actually 9's. I assumed they were 45's.

I could still do without all the drama but as stated it's a reality show designed to get you fired up. I liked ole Colby the host on Survivor but hes a little dry at the hosting game for sure.

[aray]

Jay knows his ability even if he is doing it incorrectly. Trying to learn a new style or technique during a competition typically ends up with bad results. How do I know this...? To coin a phrase... "Been there, done that!".

That being said, I was unhappy when Jay won the shootoff against the Pro. I do not like Jay's self centered attitude. :(

Dunno if anyone is still watching this or not but I think WMD really nailed it here. A recurring theme almost every week is: the trainers try to correct Jay's poor technique, he won't listen to them at all, but then almost every week Jay gets the job done.

No better example than this week with Jay's cup & saucer pistol hold technique. And yet who knew that Jay was going to show up the retired Marine sniper with 31 years of experience in the elimination round? I also noticed that in the week before, the blue team put him on the final and most difficult stage. So they are recognizing his God-given talent, despite his poor techniques.

I still don't like Jay's attitude but I find the whole scenario involving him interesting to watch.

Just goes to show ya gotta ride the horse what brung ya.

[melissa5]

I don't really like Jay either, but he's getting the job done despite his technique. At this point in the game, I would also be reluctant to start doing it a different way. My favorites are Brian and Chris.