polygonal barrel cleaning

[deadhead1971]

I have a PM9 polygonal barrel with close 2,500 rds through it. I have noticed the other day there are linear copper streaks inside the barrel running from chamber to bore. I am not too excited and don't plan on doing anything. After each session, I use a hoppes snake bore and various bore, power solvents that claim to "remove copper fouling." I tend to be on the excessive cleaning side of the continuum. I run the snake through about 5 times and then run patches soaked with solvent, and the snake goes through again about 2 more times...etc.

The question is, does your polygonal barrel have copper streaks? Am I not cleaning enough?

[jlottmc]

All of my bbls do that, polygonal or not. I just got some 40X bore cleaner that looks like it works well, but don't have time to get after it. I have found that tight brushes and patches along with more elbow grease help with this though.

[Rotorflyr]

The copper streaks probably don't have any effect on the barrel/accuracy but, you might try one of the foaming bore cleaners (gunslick makes one), fill the barrel, let it sit for 15-20 min, run some patches thru it, and do it again.

[earle8888]

Not recommending it!!!!!! BUT, I was told and followed Weatherby's instruction and swab barrel with patches soaked with ammonia. Let stand one or two minutes ONLY, then thoroughly clean. The ammonia reacts with the copper/gilding metal the gas tends to lift the metal from the barrel.

[Bawanna]

I've heard that also. I have never tried it but its rumored to work.

I am a firm believer that more barrels are worn out cleaning them than shooting them but I do like a sparkly clean barrel for whatever tiny little bit that might be worth.

[Cornel]

I still have enough cleaning stuff for my guns. but next time I need to resupply I'm planning to get this kit to give it a try.

How good or hype it is? I don't know but you may give it a go and see how it works for you.

http://www.mpro7.com/MPro7-Tech-Info.html

[BEARDOG]

Hey Deadhead...Don't I know you from somewhere??? LOL...
To remove copper fouling get some Sweets 7.62 solvent. It is a strong copper solvent. I have been using it for years mostly for my target rifles. It is very well reviewed by others also. See it here...
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=643582
It has ammonia in it(clears the sinuses) and the patches will turn blue as it removes the copper. Good stuff

[deadhead1971]

Hey there :)

Thanks. Some of my buddies have said to stay away from Sweets in cleaning AR barrels--- too rough on barrels.

Well, here is an excerpt from an e-mail..

....Sweets is very good and has withstood the test of time BUT… Sweets is also highly corrosive and if you’re not careful and stay on top of your project, it can do some pretty nasty damage to the bore and barrel. If I were dealing with a barrel that was extremely filthy and hadn’t been cleaned in a VERY LONG TIME, I might do a couple of runs with Sweets but afterwards, I would swab it out extensively and then use either ProShot or Shooter’s Choice. Just to give you an idea…

[BEARDOG]

DH, If you read the instructions it says to leave it in the barrel no longer then 15 mins. I follow the directions and never had any problems. I really only use it on my heavy barreled M700's varmint and Tactical rifles to maintain peak accuracy, but if I had a copper fouled pistol or AR barrel that I wanted to clean, I would use it on mine with no worries....YMMV

[deadhead1971]

Instead of starting a new topic, I'll just stick it here.

Is there any info on the lifespan of a PM9 barrel? I have been researching AR rifle barrel life cycles (chrome-moly vs stainless steel vs chrome lined), and it seems at some point, accuracy declines for X# of rounds, and barrels just wear out.

[jocko]

u probably won't live long enough to shoot out a handgun barrel. IMO Kahr barrels are made by lothar who make the finest matcvh grade barrels in the world. It is polygonal rifled by lothar also. U can't do any better. Ihave over 30,000 orunds through my PM9 barrel and it shoots just as good as the day I got it. ..

[wyntrout]

Jocko ought to know... he's our official resident PM9 barrel longevity tester. :D

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

Instead of starting a new topic, I'll just stick it here.

Is there any info on the lifespan of a PM9 barrel? I have been researching AR rifle barrel life cycles (chrome-moly vs stainless steel vs chrome lined), and it seems at some point, accuracy declines for X# of rounds, and barrels just wear out.


This question came up when I was at Colt Armorer school. The instructor who owns Specialized armament said in a military configuration with full auto capacity, some abuse and neglect thrown in and lots and lots of rounds, I don't recall a specific number you might wear out a barrel.

Different opinions on worn out barrels though too. A varmint or 1000 yard match shooter would consider a barrel gone long before most others.

Most gunsmiths and shooters I trust hope they live long enough to wear out a barrel on just one gun. I don't see it happening to the average guy.

Big difference between ruining a barrel and wearing it out also.

[Bawanna]

u probably won't live long enough to shoot out a handgun barrel. IMO Kahr barrels are made by lothar who make the finest matcvh grade barrels in the world. It is polygonal rifled by lothar also. U can't do any better. Ihave over 30,000 orunds through my PM9 barrel and it shoots just as good as the day I got it. ..

But you couldn't hit anything with it when it was new, how to you know if it's wore out or not?

I duplicated again, my bad. Your quicker than me once again.

[jocko]

thank u ol great one, i really didn't need to be reminded of that. I thought maybe I just got a bad barrel, DMAN, ur harsh on an ol timer..

[CJB]

Couple of things cross my mind.
First the ammonia thing and nickel finishes. I'd like to clarify what was sort of said way up the thread. Typically, steel plated first with copper, before nickel is applied. Ammonia dissolves copper. Any porosity or bridging on the nickel will allow the copper under it to start to react with the ammonia. Good old #9 and most other "traditional" bore cleaners have ammonia in them, and carry warnings against prolonged use on nickel finishes. Electroless nickel is not subject to the same problem (or as badly).

The other thing is sat and pondered why Kahr nickel plates the barrels. Not chrome, but nickel. The only thing I can come up with is they probably have a mix of reasons with the prevention of galling being pretty close up to the top of the list.

[jocko]

. I have never read of anyone over cleaning a kahr barrel and causing damage to it. I guess if u use the wrong crapola all the time or don't do what the directions tell u, something can go wrong. I would think solvents like Hoppe #9 would have such a minor amount of amonia in it that one would probably HAVE TO soak it for a very long time in order to damage it.

[CJB]

Not trying to be contrary Jocko, but #9 has a lot of ammonia in its composition.

I've seen, first hand, bright nickel revolvers that were "clouded" by soaking in Hoppe's. I haven't looked lately, and they may have reformulated in recent years, but if they're still using the tried and true #9, it'll cloud over nickel finishes pretty quickly. The other thing is... the clouding doesn't happen right away, but begins many times after the soak job has finished. Once the copper starts to go, it keeps on goin'. Dunno if you've ever seen those blotchy ol' Colt Troopers and Smith 10's that were nickel. Not corroded and flakey, but cloudy blotches that wont ever "buff out". Hoppe's #9 be the cause.

But, I agree with you, the Kahr barrel is not likely to be damaged by #9 or other solvent. BTW, the "Bench Rest" solvent by Hoppe's is way high in ammonia. Jeeze just open the bottle! Thats how it "cuts copper fouling". Thats why the patch turns blueish/green. Thats the copper reacting with the ammonia. I highly suspect that Kahr uses electroless nickel on the barrel, or perhaps some even more exotic brew of chemistry, not subject to problems from ammonia.

And.. while we're on the subject. Ammonia on aluminum is a huge no-no. I've seen ruined Penn International and Accurate two speed reels that were totally trashed by ammonia - household ammonia, used to clean them, with only mild soaking. It will remove anodizing, not only the color but the passivization as well. After that... the aluminum begins to decay. Take some fancy bit of decorative trim and drop it into a closed container of (new) household ammonia. Not too long later, you'll be seeing bubbles come up as the bit begins to dissolve. Old tarnished copper pennies will go shiny again in household ammonia too. New zinc pennies will decay once the copper is used up... but that takes a while.

HA! Didn't mean to get so detailed, but maybe there's a few warnings there folks can do well to heed.

Thanks for all ya do Jocko!

[deadhead1971]

Hoppes #9 ok on a chrome-moly ar barrel?

It does have the nickel warning so I keep it outside of a 10' buffer zone from the Kahr.

[jocko]

cjb: I was enlightned alot. thanx. U know any cleaning solvent HAS TO CLEAN, so one has to use his head when cleaning anything. I probably don't clean a barrel aS good as most would. I dip the brassbrush in #9 or what ever I have at the tme and just scrubb the pi-s out of the barrel. I really don't soak, never did. I guess If I can see out both ends, it is clean enough. a oil patch right after that goes a long way towards helping preserve what I just did..

\agaia thanks for the info. Oneis never to old to learn, the day you don't learn anything is usually the day u just died.

I think though I will write my kahr source and ask about this cleaning solvent stuff, as u state most have amonia in them and we should know if it is OK to use or not..

[CJB]

Ammonia free - CLP, WD-40, kerosene, etc. Old military bore cleaner is also VERY good, and ammonia free. Stinks as bad as the rest too! Got a case of it for $12 a while ago... great deal there! (24 4oz bottles). I think Cheaper than Dirt had it for that price.

The JB bore paste works great for copper fouling, but is now a "Brownells" product. Truth be told, white toothpaste mixed with some light oil works about as well (dont ask me how I know!!!). You will get some stares from the shooting buddies, opening the range bag and having it smell all minty.... The gels dont have the abrasive quality of plain ol' white toothpaste.

And hold onto yer boots.... at the range I used to work at (for over 10 years), we had some rentals. The .357's we had were a (now very rare) Ruger Redhawk, and some HB fixed sight Smith 4" revolver. We made our own reloads, from range lead, and they were hot enough. After a week of non cleaning, one of us would just grab our pocket knife and trim off the soda straw of lead coming out of the front of the barrel. When customers complained they couldn't get ammo to fit any more, we'd take a stainless bore brush in short rod - chucked in a Makita cordless drill - and give each chamber a few passes at high rpm. Same with the bore. Take off grips, throw it in the dunk tank, and dry it with air. Back in service in less than 5minutes. Yah abused, but I wish I had that Redhawk! Those guns had more rounds than can be imagined. Cleaned like taking barnacles off a hull, and they kept going. Never a hitch, except dirty chambers.

For the record, I dont suggest that anyone take a drill powered stainless brush to the inside of their Kahr :)

Thanks for the kind words, Sir!

[DKD]

You can really see the effects more so on high power rifles, especially magnum rifles after many boxes of shell are ran through them. It can even get worse when the barrel is kept really hot.
Most companies tell you to do a though cleaning and use copper solvent (amonia bearing) cleaners periodically and to use them sparingly following the direction and you should have no problems. You do have to run a couple of dry patches followed by an oil patch to complete.
I usually clean my 300 Win Mag like this after a hundred or so rounds to keep the guild edge accuracy of my rifle. My 30-06's even less frequently due to less copper fouling left behind by lower intensity loads. I have experieneced no ill effects on any of my rifles or pistols so cleaned.

[earle8888]

I believe that the little cans of 'bore cleaner' from WWII is full of ammonia, thats why it works!

[CJB]

The WWII bore cleaner is some curious stuff. The problem they faced back then was that there was salt left behind in the barrel from the priming compound. US Army Ordnance was very reluctant to change from the Frankford Arsenal priming formula, because of a prior change that resulted in high pressures and some rifle failures. That priming compound left salt, which caused corrosion very rapidly. The cleaners of that day made attempts to "wash away" the fouling which caused the corrosion. They tried to eliminate "acids" (which ammonia would do), but weren't highly rich in ammonia. Hatcher gives some formulas in his Hatcher's Notebook (I think). I seem to recall "Pratt's Astral Oil" which is basically white kerosene, as being one of the key ingredients, along with lanolin, and camphor (for fragrance). The key there is lanolin, which would allow the absorption of trace amounts of water into the mixture, which would dissolve the salt. Nobody knew it was salt though....

Up until WWII it was not known why barrels would rapidly rust at times, then at other times not rapidly rust. Ordnance asked the Bureau of Mines to run some tests, and the results showed it was simple salt remnants from the primers that cause the rust. (Ordnance slowly looked at their outstretched palms, then smacked themselves in their collective foreheads! DOH!) Commercial ammo had used "non-corrosive" primers since the 20's, but Ordnance stuck to the old formula.

The first deviation from the old FA formula was for the M1 Carbine, who's designers were wary of corrosion on the gas piston. They simply stated that ammo must have "non-corrosive primers". Winchester had the ammo order, and they simply used their tried and true commercial (non-corrosive) commercial mixture and didn't make a big deal about it. It wasn't until about Korea, that the military had universal non-corrosive priming, and changed the cleaning slop to match.

The stuff I got is early 70's production, still good, has no ammonia. Basically an oil and krud cutter, doesn't do a thing for copper fouling whatsoever.

~~~
I'm going off too long again... sure sign of a very white beard. Hey, I resemble that!

[earle8888]

Here is page from Hatcher's notebook!

[CJB]

Ah ammonia dope.... I stand corrected. Wasn't there one with lanolin too?

[jocko]

got this from kahr today;

Good morning. I have spoken with a couple of our gunsmiths and they have
told me our barrels are Nickel. Hoppes is alright to use for cleaning
purposes but we would not recommend leaving it on for an extended period of
time. I hope this information helps

[deadhead1971]

I puchased some of this stuff about 2 weeks ago. It's kinda like those all in one "no-rub" contact lense solutions that clean, disinfects, and rinse.

This cleans, lubricates, and protects.

http://www.amazon.com/Smith-Wesson-SW015-Lubricant-Protectant/dp/B00162KNAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1300279588&sr=1-1

[renscore]

KG-12 works well...no ammonia.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=144092#productTabReviews

[jocko]

i puchased some of this stuff about 2 weeks ago. It's kinda like those all in one "no-rub" contact lense solutions that clean, disinfects, and rinse.

This cleans, lubricates, and protects.

http://www.amazon.com/smith-wesson-sw015-lubricant-protectant/dp/b00162knai/ref=sr_1_1?ie=utf8&s=automotive&qid=1300279588&sr=1-1

ky works great to. Oops. Were talking guns, aren't we. Sorry about that, me bad.:9: