Mas Ayoob on carry gun modifications

[Willieboy]

FYI and FWIW to you, here's a thread I recently stumbled accross in my endless surfing. I really do need to get a life.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329799

[Snak3]

If you're REALLY bored, read up on Massachusetts gun laws. You'll vomit in your mouth at least twice within 5 minutes - I know I did.

[Willieboy]

I am really bored but I abhore vomit breath.

[.45fan]

I didn't click the link, but is he still yammering about going to jail for a million years if you do a trigger job on a defense gun?

[mr surveyor]

I didn't click the link, but is he still yammering about going to jail for a million years if you do a trigger job on a defense gun?



ditto

that's the reason I have little respect for the self proclaimed "experts". Still haven't seen the court cites for all the defensive shooters going down for trigger jobs and handloaded ammunition

[aray]

ditto

that's the reason I have little respect for the self proclaimed "experts". Still haven't seen the court cites for all the defensive shooters going down for trigger jobs and handloaded ammunition

It's the sum totality of the picture painted by the prosecutors. There's no case where someone is going to go after you just for that. But when you get an overzealous prosecutor, he's going to find every little thing he can to paint you as a crazy "gun nut" who took away the last chance of the poor little victim - who was just about to turn his life around and would have done so if you hadn't snuffed him right before that could happen.

* Trigger jobs = itchy trigger finger, ready to shoot before a well-reasoned person would do so.
* Hollow point bullets = Dum dums. Aren't those outlawed by the Geneva Convention?
* And what do you need with extra magazines anyway? Out "hunting" for people? What are you, a militia member?
* On your house do you have a "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again" sticker on your house? Shows you value property more than human life.
* And what about your postings on kahrtalk re: expressing glee when a BG bites the dust. Again, what sort of moral monster are you anyway?

Mas Ayoob has seen it all. He's been called as an expert witness for the defense countless times & has seen all the tricks prosecutors play. Ignore him or not, but be prepared to have an answer for the jury if you go down another path. For extra magazines or HP bullets, reference to standard practice by your local LEO is a great response. For trigger mods, that's harder to explain to a jury.

[MikeyKahr]

Good reply, aray. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[jocko]

to many scenarios for me!!!! Is smoothing up a trigger system considered a trigger job. I seriously doubt it. If it bothers a person, then don't do anything to your gun and carry it like it came out of the box, 99.,9995 of the time you will never have to use it anyhow in a life and death situation, so for me it is a mute point anyhow. Liskten to the experts, then do what you want to do. they are only experts becuase we put that title on many of therm.

[jeep45238]

I have yet to see anything he preaches about regarding modifications and ammo show up in court and be the basis of somebody being announced guilty by a group of their peers.

A good shoot is a good shoot, be it with a 9x19mm 1911 race gun with a compensator and a red dot sight system, or a bone stock Glock 17L. The equipment has no relevance to the cause of the shooting, nor the end result (assuming shot placement/terminal ballistics are the same between the two guns).

[aray]

I have yet to see anything he preaches about regarding modifications and ammo show up in court and be the basis of somebody being announced guilty by a group of their peers.

In one of his books (I think it was "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry" but don't quote me on that) he tells of a story of a guy for whom he was an expert witness for the defense. Story from memory here so might get a detail or two wrong:

The defendant was in traffic and had a car cut him off several times, made multiple illegal and dangerous moves around his and other cars, etc. He tried to be a good samaritan & get a tag # so he could phone it in to LEO but was unable to do so. However he did see them pull into a parking lot and so (foolishly in hindsight) pulled in to the same parking lot to get the rest of the tag. Car full of thugs saw him do that, jumped out of their car, and approached his car with a baseball bat, threatening him, etc. Victim at that point pulls his 45 out of the glove box for self defense. Never fires a shot - bad guys back down when they saw the gun.

Dude is now able to leave, which he does, drives another block or so, and then pulls over & calls 911. Too late. The thugs (who it turns out had long rap sheets) called 911 first for "man with a gun". Cops respond and arrest the guy.

Anti-gun prosecutor goes after him for "brandishing" etc., despite the fact that the gun was legal and he had a CCW permit. The thugs were not charged with anything, and in fact were witnesses for the prosecution.

Part of what the prosecutor used was, in fact, that he had a spare magazine and had the gun loaded with hollow point bullets. Again as stated it was part of a larger mosaic that the prosecutor was trying to paint about how reckless this guy was, how his choice in weapons, ammo, and procedures were negligent to the point of being criminal, etc.

In pretrial motions, the prosecution tried to prevent Ayoob from testifying. Fortunately that was not successful. Ayoob was able to explain that semi-automatics fail, that when they do many times the best choice is to dump the magazine and load a new one, that in firefights most shots are misses and having a spare magazine is the right choice, that law enforcement personnel themselves carry spare magazines and for the same reasons that private citizens do, that hollow point rounds are safer for innocent bystanders due to over-penetration, that the local LEO department also carried HP bullets for the same reasons, that ...

The guy was acquitted, but I became convinced that it was only because of Ayoob's testimony that he wasn't found guilty. The final insult was that even though he was acquitted, the prosecutor tried to convince the judge that his 45 should be destroyed & not returned to the guy. It took separate follow-on legal arguments to get the gun returned to the guy.

Interesting story in general but more to the point but I learned several important morals to the story:

1. Be careful what you do when you are carrying. Things that might seem OK when not carrying take on greater potential consequences when you are. In particular, some times it is just better to "let things go" than to allow yourself be put in a situation where you have to even draw the gun in self defense in the first place.

2. Call 911 FIRST! Many times whoever calls 911 is treated by the responding officer as "the victim" and the other side as "the bad guy" - because 99.9% of the time that's exactly the way that it is! The LEO is just reacting to "the rule" and not "the exception". It may be a mistake, but cops are humans too and make mistakes just like everyone else - you just don't want to be on the receiving end of that mistake.

3. Think ahead and be ready to justify every decision that you make - from choice of gun to choice of ammunition, to ... Know and understand why HP rounds are the safest choice, be prepared to explain why you selected that particular firearm. And, if you made any modifications to it, you may be called upon (in a hostile environment) to justify that mod.

Like Ayoob, I'm not saying don't make the mods. But forewarned is forearmed - just go into this with your eyes wide open, knowing the potential consequences of an anti-gun prosecutor.

[CJB]

Mas Ayoob has seen it all. He's been called as an expert witness for the defense countless times & has seen all the tricks prosecutors play.

Gotta keep in mind M.Ayoob's testimony as expert witness was mostly in cases of LEO shootings of civilians - where LEOs are held to a higher standard, if not by law, then in the court of public opinion.

[slowpoke]

I understand the points Ayoob makes but:
I have a Glock that had a trigger so nasty that when I first got it I'd have to say that people standing around my target were in more danger than someone standing in front of it. So I'd say I was doing the innocent public a favor by giving it a trigger job.
That being said, I don't carry a Glock, I carry a kahr that is completely stock. But then again, Kahr knows how to make a trigger.

[mr surveyor]

If smoothed triggers and actions, hollow points and spare magazines are cause for a defensive use of a firearm to be turned into a case of premeditated murder, then several million of us that carry daily should rethink our choice of carry weapons. Maybe old, rusty, single action .32 cal revolvers (obviously carryed hammer down on an empty cylinder) with a flap type leather holster would be in order.

I still have NOT seen cites from actual court cases that would raise an issue regarding the many thousands of legal defensive uses of firearms that occur annual in the country.

[Longitude Zero]

It all comes down to one simple and undeniable fact. How you are treated depends upon the location, location, location. I have seen shootings handled totally differently because of the county in which it happened. The city where I live sits in five different counties. I once lived in a neighborhood where my across the street neighbors were in a different county.

[jocko]

if ur gonna REALLY worry about all of this then please don't carry. Life is to short to loose sleep over it.

[aray]

If smoothed triggers and actions, hollow points and spare magazines are cause for a defensive use of a firearm to be turned into a case of premeditated murder, then several million of us that carry daily should rethink our choice of carry weapons. Maybe old, rusty, single action .32 cal revolvers (obviously carryed hammer down on an empty cylinder) with a flap type leather holster would be in order.

I still have NOT seen cites from actual court cases that would raise an issue regarding the many thousands of legal defensive uses of firearms that occur annual in the country.

I clearly wasn't articulate enough in my last posting, sorry. I was not advocating to avoid smoothed triggers, or hollow points, or spare magazines. Indeed I've posted here recently that I carry a spare magazine, and shoot hollow points. As to the trigger, well I carry my Kahr CW9, so duh on the trigger! :)

As for court cases, I cited a very real one in which Ayoob was involved. And in your own mind you can visualize how this might play out with a zealous anti-gun prosecutor bent on either making a name for himself or just on principle vindictively going after people who "bitterly cling to their guns & their religion":

First up the perps (henceforth known as "Saints" to the jury because in pretrial motions their long rap sheets are ruled as inadmissible to this case - and juries can only rule on what they are allowed to hear).

Prosecutor: What did you see?

Saint #1: This wild-eyed maniac swings in off the street and start waving his gun around at us. I thought I was gonna die!

Prosecutor: Did you threaten him in any way?

Saint #1: No, of course not. He's crazy I tell you.

Saint #2: Yup, I was minding my own business and the next thing I see I'm staring down the barrel of a cannon.

Saint #3: I saw it too. Was headed out to <pick one: work, take care of my sick mamma, whatever> and this gun-freak squeals in behind us and starts threatening us. I was the one who called 911. Thank God that kind, gentle LEO (for whom I have the greatest respect!) got there in time or else who know what he might have done?

Saint #4: What they said.

Next up pointed-headed whiney professor at the local university, and member of the Brady Campaign to Reduce Gun Violence (henceforth known as Dean of the History Department and Respected Member of the Community)

Dean: Yes, I have examined Exhibit A, the bullets. Commonly known as Dum Dums or COP KILLER BULLETS, these types of bullets inflict a wound so seriously that since 1899 they have been outlawed by the Hague Convention in Declaration III for use in warfare. No responsible military, world-wide, issues or uses this sick type of bullet. Indeed to do so would carry a charge of Crimes Against Humanity and would lead to a War Crimes trial. The last military suspected of using these bullets were the N.A.Z.I.s in World War II. That, members of the jury, is what this gun-nut Life Member of the NRA was carrying in his magazines.

Next up, forensic crime investigator at the local crime lab, speaking of Exhibit B, the magazines:

Investigator: The Defendant was carrying a loaded round in the chamber, eight more in the magazine inserted into the semi-automatic, and eight more after that in the spare magazine. He would be able to fire these in rapid succession, as quickly as you could pull your finger, like spraying water from a fire hose.

Prosecutor: So how many people could this maniac have shot down in cold blood?

Investigator: He could have killed 17 people.

Prosecutor: OMG! Seventeen people!!!!!!!!!

And you can imagine the wrap-up to the jury, liberal uses of the phrase "cop killer", "dum dums", "N.A.Z.I.s", "war crimes", "outlawed since 1899 by international law", no doubt horrific photos of the types of damage inflicted by these types of bullets, etc.

And the coup de grace: the prosecutor points his finger at each of the jurors in turn, slowly, and goes "bang", then to the next "bang", and so on "bang", "bang", "bang", "bang", "bang", "bang", "bang", "bang", "bang", "bang" - pretending to shoot them all, and "personalizing" this to the jury. He wraps up: "With 17 bullets, this gun-waving nut could have slaughtered all 12 of you, and the 4 saints, and the responding LEO with his cop killer bullets. I urge you, members of the jury, to find the Defendant guilty of brandishing his weapon, remove his concealed weapons license, and prevent him from being a threat to peaceful loving members of this community. Next time it might be members of YOUR family!

----

Now this is all laughable to all of us. But to a jury, selected in part by the prosecution, with no doubt all candidates who are members of the NRA or who do own a gun at home eliminated from selection, it might "sell".

To beat a dead horse: I do carry JHP and I do carry a a spare magazine, etc. Obviously I'm not suggesting anyone here do differently. But I also am able to explain why those are good choices, would hire a very good lawyer, and call expert witnesses of my own to back up my choices, and not just leave it as my word against the Saints, the Dean of the local University, the Crime Investigator, etc.

[aray]

It all comes down to one simple and undeniable fact. How you are treated depends upon the location, location, location.

This. +1.

[.45fan]

It's the sum totality of the picture painted by the prosecutors. There's no case where someone is going to go after you just for that. But when you get an overzealous prosecutor, he's going to find every little thing he can to paint you as a crazy "gun nut" who took away the last chance of the poor little victim - who was just about to turn his life around and would have done so if you hadn't snuffed him right before that could happen.

* Trigger jobs = itchy trigger finger, ready to shoot before a well-reasoned person would do so.
* Hollow point bullets = Dum dums. Aren't those outlawed by the Geneva Convention?
* And what do you need with extra magazines anyway? Out "hunting" for people? What are you, a militia member?
* On your house do you have a "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again" sticker on your house? Shows you value property more than human life.
* And what about your postings on kahrtalk re: expressing glee when a BG bites the dust. Again, what sort of moral monster are you anyway?

Mas Ayoob has seen it all. He's been called as an expert witness for the defense countless times & has seen all the tricks prosecutors play. Ignore him or not, but be prepared to have an answer for the jury if you go down another path. For extra magazines or HP bullets, reference to standard practice by your local LEO is a great response. For trigger mods, that's harder to explain to a jury.

Mr Prosecutor,
* Trigger Jobs = Somebody that wants to control their shots. Grandma shooting a 12# DA only trigger would have a hard time accurately placing a shot that would stop a threat, with a smoother lighter trigger she can control the placement to not endanger the public and only use it to stop the threat.
* Hollow Points = Again show that you are only trying to stop the threat. Regular FMJ can pass through the threat and hit an innocent person, hollow points expand which slows the round down causing them to have less chance of that happening.
* Extra Mags are carried because mag failures are the most common gun malfunction. It is hard to stop a threat with a gun that isn't working. Lets not forget uniformed officers carry usually a minimum of 2 spare mags, are they out hunting people as well?
* Don't have sign on house because that is just stupid.
* Posts on Kahrtalk showing happiness when a threat is eliminated is what a normal human would express. Would you Mr Prosecutor be more happy if the bad guy were not stopped and was able rape your mother or daughter.

The defense rests.

I like Mr Surveyor have little respect for these self proclaimed experts. If the "experts" see it so often why do none of us know of any "REAL" cases that it has happened in?


The above arguments are from a non lawyer that didn't sleep at a holiday inn last night. :boink:

[MW surveyor]

We can debate this forever.

Someone please cite real cases with links if possible.

[slowpoke]

We can debate this forever.

Someone please cite real cases with links if possible.
I don't think it's guna happen.

[Snak3]

It's better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

I have trigger jobs on most of my pistol. God forbid I ever need to use one, I'd rather take my chances with it in court than take a permanent dirt nap by doing nothing.

[aray]

We can debate this forever.

Someone please cite real cases with links if possible.

Well of course I’m not an expert and don’t track these things myself. But I'll do the best I can with just a minor bit of searching.

The best evidence I have is that of Ayoob himself. He’s clearly been involved in many of these sorts of trials and said so. He expounded upon one of them in depth in the book cited (http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Book-Concealed-Carry/dp/0896896110/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1300840186&sr=8-2). I have no reason to believe he’s lying. Indeed he’s pretty famous in the gun community and if he tried to pull something like that off I’d have to believe that would be well known and publicized within the various gun forums and magazines. The sales of his books I’m guessing would take a nose-dive too – who wants to buy from someone with no credibility?

The next reference I’d cite is one I myself have posted on in kahrtalk in the past: Brian Aitken, who as you may recall was sentenced to 7 years in prison for guns he legally owned. He was trying to move into New Jersey from Colorado, and had even called the New Jersey State Police for advice on how to do that properly. Alas an over-zealous prosecutor and over-zealous judge nailed him to the wall, indeed making him out to be some sort of gun nut. The judge (James Morley) during closing arguments by the defense wouldn’t even allow the jury to hear the state laws allowing for a moving exemption, despite the fact that those laws are on the books. The jury, during deliberations, sent messages to the judge asking if those exemptions exist – he refused to inform them of those laws. In the absence of a balanced presentation of the evidence, Aitken was convicted and sentenced to 7 years in prison, until Governor Chris Christie just recently (4 days before Christmas last year) commuted his sentence. There are a ton of links to this case, just one as an example is: http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/new-jersey-judge-sentences-man-to-7-years-in-prison-for-legally-owning-guns/ (http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/new-jersey-judge-sentences-man-to-7-years-in-prison-for-legally-owning-guns/)

Without spending a lot of time researching legal cases online with LexisNexis or other tools, all I can do is to reference a few quick anti-gun prosecutor or anti-gun judge cases that pop up real quick on Google. Here’s a couple that I found in just a few minutes of searching:

Legal CCW holder in Ohio stopped for a traffic violation, voluntarily informs the LEO of his CCW, LEO asks him to put his hands on the dash. When he does so, the shirt came loose and the IWB holster and gun became visible. LEO does not arrest him but does confiscate his gun and his CCW license. The gun was illegally confiscated since Ohio law specifically states you can only do that if you are charged and arrested at a traffic stop (ORC 2923.12.(H)). He later voluntarily appears at the police station, booked on a “plain sight” felony violation at that time, and released on bond. Prosecutor and defense lawyers agree on a plea deal to dismiss the felony violation in exchange for a misdemeanor disorderly conduct charge. Bedford Municipal Court Judge Peter Junkin gets mad, tries to make the defendant out to be a vigilante, asks him stupid questions like “If you see something you are going to jump out and start shooting?”, etc. Eventually he fines him, orders him to pay court costs on the misdemeanor and also the original felony charge, and confiscates the gun. The gun was illegally confiscated in the first place, the prosecutor did not ask for the gun to be held, which is also required by law before the judge can take that action. Defense objects “Judge, I don't think you can do that” and Junkin replies “Get the Court of Appeals to tell me I can't do that.” See for example: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1711 (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1711)

Another quick example: Lance Corporal Rayna Ross who shot & killed her ex-boyfriend, Corporal Anthony Goree. He tried to kill her with a bayonet. He had beat her several times before, and had broken into her apartment twice before. Goree broke in at 3AM where Ross was alone with her infant daughter, attacked her with the bayonet, but was shot dead by Ross who had purchased her handgun only 3 days before. The local prosecutor ruled it a clear case of self defense but the Marines (who were involved because both sides were Marines – even though it was off-base) decided to press for a court-martial and go for life in prison. See http://articles.latimes.com/1994-02-27/news/mn-27882_1_marine-corps (http://articles.latimes.com/1994-02-27/news/mn-27882_1_marine-corps) and http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/crime/defense/jun1993/ross.html (http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/crime/defense/jun1993/ross.html) and http://books.google.com/books?id=ygcO6WyqrYkC&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=Lance+Cpl.+Rayna+Ross&source=bl&ots=L2fD9iZF8h&sig=dN5-0QfOY9mCV3igqXbih1w1WP4&hl=en&ei=oSyJTZvfIcPH0QGMuo37DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=ygcO6WyqrYkC&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=Lance+Cpl.+Rayna+Ross&source=bl&ots=L2fD9iZF8h&sig=dN5-0QfOY9mCV3igqXbih1w1WP4&hl=en&ei=oSyJTZvfIcPH0QGMuo37DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Finally, if you think this isn’t possible, consider the environment you’ll face if you go up against a NYC judge appointed by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of Mayors Against Illegal Guns fame: http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/ (http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/)

Or consider also the environment even in my state (Maryland). The Second Amendment Foundation is suing Maryland over our "good and substaintial" CCW clause because the Maryland State Police denied a CCW permit renewal to Raymond Wollard because he couldn’t show a threat “outside his home”. This despite the fact that the original perp who had broken into his home was released from jail (early of course) and moved in just 3 miles away. http://www.wbal.com/absolutenm/templates/story.aspx?articleid=55724&zoneid=2 (http://www.wbal.com/absolutenm/templates/story.aspx?articleid=55724&zoneid=2) The same sorts of judges in NY are the same sorts you’ll find in NJ and the same sorts you’ll find in MD.

I think those of you fortunate enough to live in one of the 40 SANE states just don’t realize how bad it is here in one of the 10 insane states, and the lengths legislators, prosecutors, and judges will go to here to ensure that no one ever uses a gun in self defense and gets away with it. I hope ya’ll never have to find out either.

As our friend Logitude Zero already said “location, location, location”.

[mr surveyor]

so... Mas Ayoob needs to preach to Maryland?

None of those cases seem relevent to anything about legal concealed carry. The case of the guy that had an "unintentional failure to conceal" issue would have no problem in Texas, especially after giving LEO proper notification of DL and license to carry (CHL in Texas). If Ayoob is making statements concerning any of those cases, I think it's out of his league ... unless he now has the respect of the legal system for a degree in law/political science....maybe he does, I don't know or really care. He is a profiteer of fear tactics, in my humble opinion.

The point is, most of us with a "few years expereience" have grown out of the fear of the trigger job/hollow point/spare mag type of crap a lot of these so called experts seem to spout off about. And there are no known convictions that I have heard of that were based on those issues alone. It's either a "good shoot" or not.

[Izzy360]

If you're REALLY bored, read up on Massachusetts gun laws. You'll vomit in your mouth at least twice within 5 minutes - I know I did.

Hey I know our laws suck compared to say Alaska but to vomit wow

[Snak3]

Hey I know our laws suck compared to say Alaska but to vomit wow

You'll understand my sarcasm and sense of humor soon enough. ;)

[aray]

The point is, most of us with a "few years expereience" have grown out of the fear of the trigger job/hollow point/spare mag type of crap a lot of these so called experts seem to spout off about.

Ah, but your experience is based upon living in what I call a sane state. Guns are no big deal there. People understand them at worst or embrace them at best. They won't tolerate "rulers" (legislators, judges, or prosecutors) who would trample on their rights. People believe they are responsible for their own actions, and as such a live & let live attitude prevails. You succeed or fail on your own merits. Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome, is what is desired. And yes, people down there "cling to their guns & their religion".

My experience in Maryland and the New England states is different. I think the prevailing political atmosphere up here is insane. Guns are a big deal here, and people that own them are viewed as nuts. (We have posted a YouTube video of a MD State Senator saying just that.) Our "rulers" think they not only should but must do what is best for us. They think that they are more moral than the rest of us, smarter than the rest of us, wiser than the rest of us, and, if they were honest with themselves, more evolved in their own minds than the rest of us. It is a nanny state. Perps are never responsible for their own actions: it is "society's fault" or their inequities in their upbringing. Equality of outcome regardless of effort is paramount. They look down on the rest of you in other states: you're viewed as uneducated boobs, rednecks, stupid, racist/sexist/homophobs/etc. You all live in "flyover country" between enlightened Washington DC / New York City, and on the opposite coast LA / San Francisco California. You "bitterly cling to your guns & your religion". If you dare bring a gun into the peaceful utopia that is the Northeast (spoiled only by people that think like me) then God help you - if there were a God - which of course they know that there really isn't.

So while I do carry JHP and I do carry a spare magazine, up here I'll stand by the three things I learned from Ayoob that I believe are worthwhile:
1. Legally carry at all times to be sure, but at the same time be careful of your actions as there can be unintended consequences,
2. Call 911 first whenever you draw your weapon,
3. Be prepared to give a justification of all of the decisions you made not just during the incident but those made prior to the incident as well.

I think those are pretty common sense anyway, and maybe ya'll didn't need Ayoob to teach you all of that. But it was helpful, to me anyway. I obviously don't have the great experience that most of the rest of you do.

Anyway, I'll give you the last word. Peace.

[MikeyKahr]

As for my prior reply, I think you know which direction I lean (in favor of Ayoob's and aray's viewpoint). To me, it all comes down to the possibilities.

Is it possible for a prosecutor to argue that a modified gun is more dangerous and prone to accidental discharge by virtue of certain modifications?

Yes, it is possible.

If I were involved in an accident where my gun discharged and injury or death occurred, do I think that a prosecutor or plaintiff's lawyer could possibly use the fact of my trigger modification (had I had one done) against me?

Yes, it is definitely possible.

Can a modified weapon with an extremely light trigger pull be considered by some to be less safe than a gun with the stock heavier pull?

Yes, that is certainly possible.

Could a jury and/or judge take that into account in how they decide my case?

Yes, it is absolutely possible.

Juries have to make judgment calls, and not all people think alike, especially when it comes to these hot button issues. Also, one must think about the difference between criminal and civil cases when considering what Ayoob has said - there's a lower bar/standard set for proof to be admitted into consideration in civil cases. A judge and jury may be swayed by these types of arguments regarding gun modifications, just as they may be swayed by things like legal arguments, previous convictions, circumstantial evidence, choice of beverages that day, or even random inconsequential items, etc. Unfortunately, it's rarely cut and dry, right and wrong in a civil courtroom. Having something like a very light trigger modification to your defense weapon can be considered a vulnerability in a court case.

I know what you're going to say. Do I have any citations for you of these sorts of things happening - no I do not. But I did sleep in a Holiday Inn once or twice!!:9:

[MW surveyor]

aray and Mikey

No, I do not think that Mas Ayoob is lying. He does however make his living by giving lectures, writing books and teaching. Believe it or not, I agree with the majority of the things that he says and teaches.

I'm with mr. surv on the examples cited. These have nothing to do with the subject at hand, ie modification or enhancement of your carry gun; but do have bearing on the inappropriate use or failure to comply with the letter of the law by officials of the court. With regard to the marine shooting. UCMJ will just about always be followed in any action whether on base or not.

I guess that I'm just lucky to live in Texas. I've been stopped twice by police here and in both instances informed the officer that I was carrying after also giving them my DL and CHL cards. Each incident resulted in no ticket and "have a nice day". Your attitude goes a long way.

"So while I do carry JHP and I do carry a spare magazine, up here I'll stand by the three things I learned from Ayoob that I believe are worthwhile:
1. Legally carry at all times to be sure, but at the same time be careful of your actions as there can be unintended consequences,
2. Call 911 first whenever you draw your weapon,
3. Be prepared to give a justification of all of the decisions you made not just during the incident but those made prior to the incident as well."

In addition to the above, which I agree with. You should also be prepared to give justification to your actions after the incident.

Just for additional fodder. I was born in Florida, moved to NY for college, have relatives in Maryland, friends that live in NJ, who shoot and have never been hassled, lived in Great Britain, traveled for work from the north slope of Alaska to Patagonia, from Norway to South Africa and France to Siberia, now live in Texas and am glad that I live here in "fly over country".

[WMD]

You hit the nail on the head Ray, Most people do not understand the full ramifications of "carrying". The dudes mistake was going after the plate number when they pulled in to the parking area. He needed to let it go.

Here is another situation for you. You are carrying, you are in a parking lot of a large retail store. It is 3pm, bright summer day. Lots of folks going in and out of the store. A female cashier comes out of the store (during shift change), to be picked up by hubby. Hubby is apparently on something and commences to beat the crap out of his wife right there in the parking lot. He is doing serious damage to the woman.

None of the folks in the area are coming to the aid of the woman. What do you do?

a - Pull him off the woman and try to restrain him
b - Pull your gun and tell him to quit hitting the woman (making a citizens arrest)
c - Call 911
d - Ignore it and go in to the store to shop

Anyone want to have a go at the most correct answer?

[eastenn]

"most correct" as in politically and legally, I guess c - call 911 and be a good witness

[MW surveyor]

before answering the question.

c is the most PC and in many instances legally in some states.

Never mind

[ltxi]

You hit the nail on the head Ray, Most people do not understand the full ramifications of "carrying". The dudes mistake was going after the plate number when they pulled in to the parking area. He needed to let it go.

Here is another situation for you. You are carrying, you are in a parking lot of a large retail store. It is 3pm, bright summer day. Lots of folks going in and out of the store. A female cashier comes out of the store (during shift change), to be picked up by hubby. Hubby is apparently on something and commences to beat the crap out of his wife right there in the parking lot. He is doing serious damage to the woman.

None of the folks in the area are coming to the aid of the woman. What do you do?

a - Pull him off the woman and try to restrain him
b - Pull your gun and tell him to quit hitting the woman (making a citizens arrest)
c - Call 911
d - Ignore it and go in to the store to shop

Anyone want to have a go at the most correct answer?

For me, it's an easy answer given "serious damage". One I've expressed to similar questions....none of the above....option e - give the courtesy of a three second warning to stop before stk.

[WMD]

If you use option "e" in my state, you will be in jail forever. Definitely option "c" would be the one to use. "c" is not a matter of being politically correct. It all has to do with the laws in your state. Now, that being said, If you were NOT carrying, I would grab a club and beat the crap out of the person. :31:

[Rotorflyr]

Legal CCW holder in Ohio stopped for a traffic violation, voluntarily informs the LEO of his CCW, LEO asks him to put his hands on the dash. When he does so, the shirt came loose and the IWB holster and gun became visible. LEO does not arrest him but does confiscate his gun and his CCW license. The gun was illegally confiscated since Ohio law specifically states you can only do that if you are charged and arrested at a traffic stop (ORC 2923.12.(H)). He later voluntarily appears at the police station, booked on a “plain sight” felony violation at that time, and released on bond. Prosecutor and defense lawyers agree on a plea deal to dismiss the felony violation in exchange for a misdemeanor disorderly conduct charge. Bedford Municipal Court Judge Peter Junkin gets mad, tries to make the defendant out to be a vigilante, asks him stupid questions like “If you see something you are going to jump out and start shooting?”, etc. Eventually he fines him, orders him to pay court costs on the misdemeanor and also the original felony charge, and confiscates the gun. The gun was illegally confiscated in the first place, the prosecutor did not ask for the gun to be held, which is also required by law before the judge can take that action. Defense objects “Judge, I don't think you can do that” and Junkin replies “Get the Court of Appeals to tell me I can't do that.” See for example: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1711 (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1711)


Since due to filters here at work I can't access the BFO site to see how old this case is/was, but if this case was from a few years back and the gun was actually concealed during the traffic stop, then he (the defendant) was indeed in violation of the law and guilty of the felony charge (regardless of how idiotic the law was, it was the law at that time) and the gun was not illegally confiscated. Oh, and the defendant didn't "voluntarily inform", as in Ohio, it's a requirement.

Ohio law has since changed and firearms don't need to be in plain sight anymore if you have a CCL.

That case had nothing to do with a modified carry weapon, or extra mags, or ammo etc...

Also people need to remember that it's the Prosecutors JOB to get a conviction, and they are going to do what ever they can to do so. ;)

By that same token, it's the Defenses job to do what ever they can to make sure the Prosecutor doesn't do his job, and part of that includes doing their best to make sure the jury isn't stacked against them (if it's a jury trial) and/or that the judge is going to be impartial (which isn't always easy, or even possible, to do)

[ltxi]

If you use option "e" in my state, you will be in jail forever. Definitely option "c" would be the one to use. "c" is not a matter of being politically correct. It all has to do with the laws in your state. Now, that being said, If you were NOT carrying, I would grab a club and beat the crap out of the person. :31:

Well, then I guess I'm glad I don't live where you do. Or maybe I also either just care too much about helpless victims and/or less about the consequences to myself. Of course 911 should be called. But the caveat you placed of "serious damage" being inflicted justifies immediate, necessary force in defense of others. A club would be nice and actually most preferable if at hand and it works; depending on dress and circumstance I sometimes have an ASP on my person. Absent that, however, a 9mm round into something vital involving the central nervous system and preferably lethal would be an excellent solution, albeit legally annoying if caught.

All that aside, I don't much care for "what if" scenarios that solicit the opinions of strangers. If relied on, that can lead to deadly miscues. With a lifetime of training, experience, and btdt behind me I'm pretty instinctively wired. I believe anyone who carries a weapon capable of deadly force should both be willing to use it and really need to predefine their own comfort zone. Overreaction can have unnecessarily unpleasant consequences. Too much thought in the moment can get one killed.