View Full Version : Kahr Armorer's Course
jocko
03-31-2011, 11:19 AM
kahr does not offer an armorers course..:third:
melissa5
03-31-2011, 02:59 PM
What? Why not?
jocko
03-31-2011, 03:03 PM
Now I just ask if they did, not the why not... any reason they give would be acceptable to some and not acceptable to others. ..
johnh
04-01-2011, 07:49 AM
No offense, but that is incorrect unless it is a recent policy change. They do offer an armorer's course. I helped arrange for officers from the nearby Springfield, Missouri, PD to attend back when the forum first started.
jocko
04-01-2011, 09:24 AM
no offense, I got that from Jay at kahr, so u might want to discuss that with him, to see if they still indeed do it. I am just the messenger..
P. S. I have just written Jay at kahr for an explanation as to why he told me that when if indeed kahr still does offer this service. When one goes and asks a question to an inside kahr official, you would want to think his answer back was on track but according to John H it might be a misstatement, unless as of now they no longer offer this service, which if true how easy it would have been in the first place to include that back with his first reply. So my apologies to those whom I misinformed. My question was never asked if they offer it to police departments, for I would assume if they sell to departments that they would indeed offer them to departments.I would thihnk this would even be a police department requirement... Although many other big name companies offer armorers course to civilians and smittys at a nomional fee, one would have assumed that kahr would offer amorers course at a nominal feel also. Guess not,
Back in our early glock days, I sent one of my employees to Ohio to a 3 day glock armorers school. I paid the fee, he did the schooling and came back as a certified glock armorer. I remember him even telling me when he got back that it was just a basic take the gun apart a 100 times and put it back together, and never once did he say that they had a basic trouble shooting session of what happens if so and so happens. Just nothingh but memory skills in take a glock apart back then. Maybe today that has all changed to. He could though take a glock aprt blindfolded and put it back together, if that really means anything.
OK, here we go, a quick answer back from jay:
Good morning. I am sorry for the confusion. I had thought you were asking
about a public armorers course. Kahr does offer a course for large police
departments that order our firearms but we do not offer a public course.
Again, I apologize for the confusion and any inconvenience.
sincerely,
Jay
Bawanna
04-01-2011, 10:32 AM
Well that makes more sense now. Many manufacturers off courses to depts or agencies and not to the public.
Wish mine had more Kahrs I'd love to take that course and see how to get deep inside these things.
I figure if I survived Beretta school I can take anything. Glock school was a walk in the park. And like Jocko said it was take it apart, put it together. We did have some minor and brief troubleshooting but not much.
Was still good though. If you never took one apart before it was a real learning experience.
Colt AR school was good too. I fear I've forgotten most of that one but I'm sure it will all come back when needed. I have a bunch of rifles that need to be gone thru and given a makeover.
jocko
04-01-2011, 11:43 AM
yup sure does make alot of sensje, could have saved alot of anguish had he stated that when I ask the question. Probably half my fault to for not putting the exact fokking words in their mouths either..
Oh well if u want to be an armorer join a police force that uses alot of kahrs and it just might happen..
OldLincoln
04-01-2011, 01:42 PM
Based on the Glock course then, if you can take the Kahr all the way down and put it back together you are good to go?
I would think you would have to deal with micrometers, diagnosing flaking finishes, cracks, burrs, pings, etc to determine if they were problematic. Then there's the systems - trigger, slide, magazines, sights - to deal with. And of course how to repair them all.
Bawanna
04-01-2011, 01:50 PM
Based on the Glock course then, if you can take the Kahr all the way down and put it back together you are good to go?
I would think you would have to deal with micrometers, diagnosing flaking finishes, cracks, burrs, pings, etc to determine if they were problematic. Then there's the systems - trigger, slide, magazines, sights - to deal with. And of course how to repair them all.
Actually the systems and of course the take apart and put back together are armorer activities. Flaking, finishes, cracks burrs etc are gunsmith activities.
A armorer is a parts changer. Its not doing something, this is broken or questionable, put a new one in. If that didnt' work try something else. If nothing works send it to a gunsmith who will diagnose the cause.
An armorer for example wouldn't do filing and stoning to improve a trigger. Thats a gunsmith task. There are some good armorers who are border line or above gunsmiths who may do so but generally not. (if they are smart).
It's like the dealer factory trained mechanic and the kid at speedy lube. I hope to some day be as good as the kid at speedy lube.
jocko
04-01-2011, 03:03 PM
what bawanna said waqs exactly what my e3mployee brought backhome from his 3 dayh session. He even told me back then they could have done iut all in a day and half, as there was no trouble shooting on the glocks backthen, Irt was a take apart replace with new part and send on its way. No tools required like a smitty might have on hand.
Onlhy thing we got out of it was a great price on any parts for our business which was really a waste of money as glocks back then really need no parts. I seem to remember they did have one recall where a person could bring in his glock to an armorer and get a new part installed in his gun no charge. wasn't a safety recall and I know it had something to do with the trigger bar but I can't remember back 35 years ago.
I doubt if most armorers course want any person fokking with thier guns other than replacing old parts with new parts. I would think some liability exposure would be possable in todays sue sue world.
Catshooter
04-01-2011, 04:19 PM
I think that this forum is the armorors course. I see answers on this forum that Kahr didn't know. They may know them now of course.
Pretty clever of them to sponsor a forum so they could figure out how to fix some of the more difficult problems with their pistols, don't you think?
Cat
jocko
04-01-2011, 04:22 PM
good point!!! kinda hard to argue that point even..
I look at all the past mod upgrades that glock has madeover the years. Most of this stuff wouldhave never surfaced if it was not FOR THE SHOOTERS. Same thing IMO goes for kahr, SHOOTERS will determine what works and what doesn't..
johnh
04-02-2011, 10:28 AM
Hey, so we should have some kind of certificate for being on the forum? I could put that on my "I am great" wall at the office. :D "Kahr Internet Armorer". Hmmm....KIA might not be the best abbreviation though... ;)
jlottmc
04-02-2011, 10:36 AM
Bawanna, as a one with a secondary MOS of 2111 (you guessed it Armorer) stones and loupes (for find cracks and such), were a part of our standard tool kits. Then again, we did a bunch to many weapon systems. We replaced parts, but short of major machining or work did that too. Having grown up in a machine shop, I did all my own smithing when I wanted something done. One of these days, when I get me a house, I may set up for some of it again.
Bawanna
04-02-2011, 10:45 AM
Bawanna, as a one with a secondary MOS of 2111 (you guessed it Armorer) stones and loupes (for find cracks and such), were a part of our standard tool kits. Then again, we did a bunch to many weapon systems. We replaced parts, but short of major machining or work did that too. Having grown up in a machine shop, I did all my own smithing when I wanted something done. One of these days, when I get me a house, I may set up for some of it again.
I remember inspecting for cracks in the Beretta class. They told us to hang it from finger tip and hit with something metal, hammer, screwdriver etc. If it rang like a bell if was good, if it was flat, it was cracked.
Inspection all falls in the armorers role, some of the repair especially machining takes it to a higher level.
I agree with John. A KIA plaque on the wall might not be the best.
jlottmc
04-02-2011, 11:14 AM
Well lets make some up and see how they fly. Maybe we could put a chrome plated blue gun of our beloved Kahrs on it too. Oh wait, I still work at a college, and that might be a little over the line, at least for now.
A armorer is a parts changer
Yes...and no.
I think the better distinction is that the armorer maintains weapons, through the replacement of parts, and more thorough cleaning than field stripping would provide. In the course of replacing parts, some of those parts may need to be fit, by selection (undersize/oversize) or by educated fitting procedures. One classic example would be the thumb safety on a 1911. That part, if broken or worn, would need its internal surface fit to the particular sear/hammer combination in that particular pistol. IOW, "file here a little, until it fits". It may also need its detent area fitted for correct operation. That is part of fitting a worn or broken part. Things like bushings and barrels may sometimes be fit for "field use" by the armorer, as they may require fitting of a minor nature to ensure functioning (not looking for accuracy but functioning only).
The gunsmith goes well beyond that. The gunsmith fits and modifies parts which require enhanced fitment to go beyond simple functioning. That may be anything from an oversize "match" barrel, up to welding slides together to make a long slide... and beyond. There is no limit, as the limit is only one's imagination, ingenuity, and what someone is willing to pay. Gunsmiths also make parts, either replacement or specialized, from scratch. Gunsmiths should be able to make a wooden stock from scratch, and make any sort of firing pin from scratch. Gunsmiths should know how to heat treat metals, how to make and temper springs, etc etc. That is all well beyond "armorer" level of training.
FWIW, I can cut metal, I can fit a stock... but I've never made my own stock from scratch. I've been able to half ass harden metal for a purpose, but never to the degree I'd like, or for enduring use. Hardening a tool or part for a few uses... I've done that.
So... just a half baked smithy here, even though I can turn and fit barrels, and have made metal parts from scratch. Maybe it just has to do with the problems at hand, or the limitations we places on ourselves through our own self doubt. Dunno.
OldLincoln
04-02-2011, 01:58 PM
I got as far as wrapping a wire around a screwdriver to magnetize it so I guess I'm no gunny. Actually not even an armorer, just someone who tinkers and who can make brass shine so purty.
Catshooter
04-02-2011, 03:02 PM
I dunno, I kinda like the KIA certificate. Be a good converstation starter, don't'cha think?
Cat
GadsdenGalt
04-02-2011, 10:51 PM
I dunno, I kinda like the KIA certificate. Be a good converstation starter, don't'cha think?
Cat
It would be overshadowed by the picture I have of Chris Hanson and a rather surprised me sharing lemonade and cookies.
IIRC this guy teaches a keltec internet armorer course, perhaps one of his associates offers a Kahr kourse.
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