Longer-range self defense.

[Catshooter]

I've seen lot's of comments over the years on the net about how any longer range self defense is: gonna get you in trouble, can't be done, shouldn't be done, won't get done as there would never be a need, etc. Let me tell y'all a little story.

This is a true story. You believe it, or not, up to you. This happened some years back and was never reported to John Law, for various and sundry reasons.

A man and his wife went on vacation in their RV. They park way at the back of a virtually empty camp ground. They both get out to walk the front of the park, which is a ways.

She has some health issues that crop up now and again, (and so did he) and they did. So she parks herself on a nearby bench, reassuring her man that she'll be fine, "What could go wrong?"

On the way back, his wife comes into veiw and she's still on the bench, but she's no longer alone. Two guys are there, and they ain't friendly, they're taunting, pushing and generally terrorizing her. Hasn't got bloody yet, but he knows it's coming. This sort of attack is quite common in this area at this time. They always injure, sometimes rape, sometimes kill.

Now, he is armed, sort of. A two inch five shot, the range is long, probably between 100 and 150 yards.

He knows he can't cover that distance in time to save her. What do you do? What did he do?

He laid down prone. Knowing that she was very close, that he had but five shots and time was short.

The first round the bad guys didn't even notice. They did the second, but they thought it was pretty funny after a moment of shock. At the third round, the taller one screamed and they both became track stars.

His wife was fine, and they to booked out of there. Fortunatly the office was closed and no one knew they were there.

Just one example. Still sure you'll never, ever need to shoot at distance with your CCW?


Cat

[bonjorno2]

interesting.... I wouldn't take a shot over 100 yards with a snubby

[GadsdenGalt]

Ah yes the quintessential internet tale........... My understanding of the law in my state causes me to believe I would not be justified in shooting at two people harassing my wife from one hundred yards away with a snub nose. Even a slow person can cover one hundred yards quickly. In the time it takes to lay down and line up a shot you could be most of the way there.

[MikeyKahr]

Ah yes the quintessential internet tale........... My understanding of the law in my state causes me to believe I would not be justified in shooting at two people harassing my wife from one hundred yards away with a snub nose. Even a slow person can cover one hundred yards quickly. In the time it takes to lay down and line up a shot you could be most of the way there.

I think I'd be in cuffs too. Maybe they'd give us a matching pair? As described, it's an unjustified shooting. May change in five seconds, but until then, can't do it. Hope the wifey would understand.

[jfrey]

I have an LEO friend and when we practice together, he normally shoots at 50 to 60 yds. His idea is "You just never know". He says he just doesn't want bad guys gettin that close. Most of the time when we shoot at those ranges he is using a G34 and I'm shooting a 1911, not a snubby.

[wyntrout]

Pushing is assault... and seeing someone coming their way, they might escalate things or attack her more viciously before they depart, if that was their plan.

That's why I don't carry a 2" snubbie, too. My 3" Kahrs will reach out a lot further... maybe. But the shooting got their attention and it dawned on them that it WAS hazardous to hang around any longer. Bravo for the hubby. Who knows what they might have done while he was trying to get closer.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

shooting at someone at 50 yards to me is a real liability issue IMO. Might be one or two times in some shooting where 50 yards handgun shots are necessary but give that case to a prosecutor and u might be in sme deep ****.

[MikeyKahr]

I have an LEO friend and when we practice together, he normally shoots at 50 to 60 yds.

I can easily understand an LEO regularly practicing at that range. I can also even conceive of a circumstance where an LEO would take a shot at that range. I'm not sure an LEO would take a shot in the circumstance described. And even if he did, I think the LEO would fare better in court than I would taking the shot!:target:

[GadsdenGalt]

Pushing is assault... and seeing someone coming their way, they might escalate things or attack her more viciously before they depart, if that was their plan.

That's why I don't carry a 2" snubbie, too. My 3" Kahrs will reach out a lot further... maybe. But the shooting got their attention and it dawned on them that it WAS hazardous to hang around any longer. Bravo for the hubby. Who knows what they might have done while he was trying to get closer.

Wynn:)

Before I continue.... I would like to add that I have not seen nearly enough debates like these on forums and I do not think there can be too many. There are no shortage of 9mm vs 45 threads which lead nowhere. But anything that reminds us of the responsibility we assume when deciding to carry a firearm is a good thing. I can honestly say I have never thought of the scenario the op posted whether it is true or not. So the opportunity to discuss it rather than make a split second decision is something I appreciate.

That being said, I would still choose close the distance before resorting to deadly force. I suppose when I consider the fight or flight response, I would expect the scumbags in question to back off or focus on me as I would be the threat if I came running toward my wife.

[O'Dell]

Wynn, I too think it was justified. However, since I have no "health issues", I think I would have attempted to get closer. I never practice at anything like that range, so I have no idea how my various pistols would perform at 100 yards. An inch to the right at 30 feet might take out a friendly at 100 yards, not to mention the pressure in an actual situation.

[CJB]

Pushing is assault...


Technically... pushing is simple battery.

I'm not sure about the validity of the "long range snubby" story. It sounds like a Kobayashi Maru scenario. I've shot a 2" five shot revolver, at 50 yards. There is no way, even laying down, that he could have guaranteed not hitting is wife. No way he could guarantee hitting a bad guy. Its a no fire scenario. Sometimes you just cant win.

The tale is too well set up, and so I suspect its fake. The vacant RV camp, nobody else there to help, and they park way in back - even though both have trouble walking. They become separated, he cant return to her, she cant run from danger. Danger is there, and it appears like magic in the midst of vacancy. Neither he or she calls out. And suddenly he becomes Superman with his snubby at 150 yards.

Too well set up, and I don't buy it at face value. Qua est testimonium

[ripley16]

interesting.... I wouldn't take a shot over 100 yards with a snubby

I couldn't hit the ground at 100 yards with the Undercover I carried in the '70s. I admire anyone who can.:cool: I know I'd never trust myself at that distance with my wife in close proximity.

[jeepster09]

"This sort of attack is quite common in this area at this time. They always injure, sometimes rape, sometimes kill."

Yeah....ok....and they just happen to go there and seperate! Totall B/S and made up!

Long distance shots with a snubby.....maybe he wanted to shoot his wife? Ya and " BIG FOOT" is real too. Well if a situation actually happened like that, casually walk up close and then pull the snubby.:7: It would be a major stretch to hit accurately at 25 yards with a snubby and not hit the wrong target.

[jocko]

I do shoot at 100 yards though the nicest OE SHOT groups you will ever seen. I never wanted to do any better, so I stopped at just one shot, but it was always RIGHT where I aimed.

Heh, I cring at the validity of 2" groups at 25 yards with a kahr whenI readit. Wehave seen hundreds of targets from osters here from 10 yards and under and you sure don't see 2" groupls there, but whenone posts that other stuff at 25 yards, Ihave to admire him, for he has to be one great shooter or one great fokking liar. ur pick??

[WMD]

I also agree the story is BS. Definitely too well set up. Oh by the way...., Picture yourself looking at your "disabled" wife being harrassed by two bad guys 150 yards away. You are now in a hi stress situation.... and you are going to hit your target at 150 yards with a snubby? I do not think so. If I was shooting, you can bet I would hit the wife. That is my luck. (or in my best Rod Serling voice) Was it.... bad luck that caused him to hit his wife?....

[melissa5]

If I were in the woods like that, I would be carrying something bigger than a snubby and the wife would be carrying even if it were only pepper spray or a stun gun. That would give us a little better odds. Forget shooting someone at that distance though. I know I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at that distance. Yeah, pop off a warning shot away from the wife and keep running. As far as the legal aspects, who is going to be thinking about that while watching the wife being mauled by thugs?

[Bawanna]

Isn't there a great scene is the movie PATTON where he shoots down an airplane with his hand gun? ;)

Yeah, but that wasn't made up. I was there.:lie::lie::lie:

[jocko]

I also agree the story is BS. Definitely too well set up. Oh by the way...., Picture yourself looking at your "disabled" wife being harrassed by two bad guys 150 yards away. You are now in a hi stress situation.... and you are going to hit your target at 150 yards with a snubby? I do not think so. If I was shooting, you can bet I would hit the wife. That is my luck. (or in my best Rod Serling voice) Was it.... bad luck that caused him to hit his wife?....

scenario. Had it been my first wife, I definitely wold be aiming at here at 150 yards. My excusae would have vbene I was aiming at the bad guy but with 6 holes in here back I might be hard pressed to explain that away.:cheer2:

[jocko]

yeah, but that wasn't made up. I was there.:lie::lie::lie:

it was one of our planes:7::7:

[Catshooter]

Thanks for all the replies folks.

My point in posting this thread was to try to open some minds. Just because a situation is "impossible" or "hard" to imagine, doesn't mean it can't happen, and it could happen to you.

If one is content to shoot to a max of seven yards and closer and never consider any possibility of a need for further, well, ok.

But some people aren't limited by a magic 21 foot distance. The old man my OP wasn't one such. He thought he knew better than to have such a piece for his primary and he normally didn't. But then he also thought he'd be safe, too. You may rest assured he never made that mistake again.

Here's one you doubters can Google. A while back at the Air Force base in Spokane Washington there was an active shooter. He was killed by an Air Police officer, with his issue Berreta 92. One shot in the neck. I'm unsure of the range but it something like 76 yards, or 87 yards or some such. I remember I was impressed at the time.

Some people can shoot. So think outside the comfort zone a bit, you never know either what you may need or what you could do if you tried.


Cat

[jocko]

nodopubt anythng can happen ONCE. Just not sure how one can actually practice at 100 yards and feel he has any real knowledge where his PM9 or J frame is going to go evne. At 10 yards and under I feel faily confident it will be in a 1 foot area and maybe in a panic situation, ten maybe within a 3 foot area. At least I would hope. now magnify that out to 100 yards and yhou have a possable hit area of 30+ feet. Again if my ex wife was out there, I would gamble and shoot it like I stole it
!!!!

[Catshooter]

jocko,

I also have an ex (well, more than one, actually), I know just how you feel.

The empty mags at my feet could a tough sell to the cops though. Just sayin . . .


Cat

[jocko]

oh I jfeel ur pain...

[Bawanna]

I never had an ex. Guess I thrive on ongoing pain, suffering and mental anxiety all the way to a slow painful ulcer ridden culmination of relief by death.

[ApeWare]

@Bawanna45cal that's gotta be the quote of the day. LOL

[jocko]

thats cause ur probably a good guy!!

[jfrey]

With all our "EX's" mentioned here, maybe we ought to start a sympathy club or sumpin like that. George Strait sang a song about too. Must be crowded in Tennessee.

My poor EX is departed now so I'll leave it at that.

[Bawanna]

In her current mind set I'm sure my current (first and last) hopes I depart soon. The sooner the better. I'm certainly worth more gone than I am alive. You think life insurance companies were invented by women? Probably not, if you wack yourself they don't pay and they would have thought of that and made changes to encourage you to wack away.

[Bawanna]

@Bawanna45cal that's gotta be the quote of the day. LOL

Thanks ApeWare, welcome to our little oasis. Hope you like it here.

[O'Dell]

jocko,

I also have an ex (well, more than one, actually), I know just how you feel.

The empty mags at my feet could a tough sell to the cops though. Just sayin . . .


Cat

I had two, but one died three years ago. Glad I had a good alibi.

[Chuck54]

I tried some 100 yard shots with a G30sf not too long ago.....out of the first 9 rounds 3 hit the silhouette....I was feeling lucky.

So if I had a loved one in the same area as my intended target at 100 yards I would never take the shot with a handgun.

[Jeremiah/Az]

I have some ex's. They're gone, but I can still hear them b*tchin' !

Not a snubby, but do ya'll remember an old cowboy named Elmer Keith? He made some unbelievable shots @ over 100 yards with his .44.

[Jeremiah/Az]

I have that book. Great read!

[Bawanna]

Use to enjoy watching him and Jack O'Connor butt heads. It was good stuff.

[Jeremiah/Az]

Wasn't it O'Conner who thought the .270 was the best thing since sliced bread?

[Bawanna]

Thats the one alright. He was into super fast and light bullets.

Ole Elmer was into big and heavy. And he was a remarkable shot with that 44 of his.

[Catshooter]

At the distances Elmer could connect with that four incher, he was shooting a snub.

See? Some people can shoot.


Cat

[jlottmc]

Ok, right now the current record for longest hit with a handgun is 174 yards. It was done with a 4" bbl 357 with 158 gr Golden Sabers if I recall the article from Mas. Here's the thing, the shooter practiced regularly at obscene pistol ranges. That shot at the AF base was mentioned in an earlier article and it was about 84 yards. What these have in common is the fact that ALL of them were done by LE. That is the only way to survive that in court I believe. Us would not be able to justify that kind of shot, unless and this is a thin maybe, we were in a state that allows defense of a third party. Thing about that is, you still have to be able to show that a. the person you were defending needed defending b. that they would have been able to use deadly force c. that your actions put no one else in danger, and were the only recourse.
I am all about practice for strange sh!t, but you still have to consider the law any time that weapon comes out.

[jeepster09]

Well I guess the scene COULD HAPPEN, like the saying goes...."you can't fix stupid"! Sometimes you need some stupid people so that the bad guys can practice their muggings and it won't affect the general population.....
Why anyone would ever get into the described situation is beyond me. "into a known bad area and park in remote area" perhaps they are just .....oh never mind I won't say it.:40:

"This sort of attack is quite common in this area at this time. They always injure, sometimes rape, sometimes kill."

[Catshooter]

jlot,

You make some valid points. If you read my original post, you'll see that the situation posted agrees with you: a. the person needed defending, b. two young men against one woman is certainly well within "deadly force", and c. no one else was put in danger and there was no other recourse.

jeep,

I didn't say it was a known bad area, I said that these sort of attacks had been happening in the area. As a current example, have there been home invasions in your area? That sort of thing, not meaning in the park that they were in specifcally.

The written word is very limited.


Cat