P45 or CW45?

[Cartman]

So I'm going to the gun show tomorrow with a S&W 1911 to trade for a Kahr, I am ready to own a .45 I will actually carry. I know the only difference is supposedly the slide machining and the barrel rifling, but if you were in my shoes, would you save the cash and get the CW or pony up a hundred or so (you know they'll only give me 25-40% of the retail on the Smith) to get the P45?

[jlottmc]

Your call. I now have both. The CW is a hair heavier, but not noticeable. Same smooth trigger, same everything. The wife LOVES her CW45, and if I had to buy another poly Kahr, it would probably be the CW series, just because I'm a cheap bastard. Both have been 100% as long as I remember to put them back together right (only issues I've had with the P45 were my fault). They both shoot well. Accessories like sights are starting to become more prevalent for the CW side too. Either way, it's a good call.

[TheTman]

I'm a little biased, having 2 CW pistols, but I'd get the CW45, and spend the balance on ammo, or maybe a CM9. It's been said here on the forum, that the CW45 is just about as accurate as the P45. One advantage of the traditional rifling in the CW series, is you can shoot unjacketed lead bullets, which I understand is a no-no on the pistols with the polygon rifling. I guess using handloaded or reloaded ammo voids the warranty, but after the warranty is up you can shoot what you want with it. Not sure how they would know you were using reloads if you used jacketed bullets, and reloaded the cartridges within specs, and didn't leave squib round in the barrel then try to shoot again.

[jocko]

I would not worry about the warranty on a kahr pistol. If you reload and know whqat your doing won't everhave ONE issues. Ain't gonna be long anyhow an you won't be buying lead bullets let along find lead wheel weights either.

Just can't see how one can go wrong with the cw 45, it is as accurate as the P45, more accurate than 99% of all shooters can get out of it and for what it is, the price doesn't justify the absoulte quality of the gun either..

[Bawanna]

I'll throw my pennies worth in favor of the CW also. If a super deal presented itself on the P or even a PM I'd jump but having a CW in your shopping sights is a good thing.

What are you hoping to get out of your Smith 1911. It's just too big?

[Cash.45]

I went to a gun show to pick up a P45 but came across a brand new CW45 for the ridiculous price of $369, so I jumped on it and haven't looked back. The money I saved went to extra mags and ammo. This little gem shoots like greased lighting. I also like the fact that the slide serrations go top to bottom instead of only halfway because of the milling on the P45 slide. I think it gives me better purchase when I'm racking the slide (tap-rack-bang, you got to love it!).

Now for the required disclaimer: YMMV

[Cartman]

What are you hoping to get out of your Smith 1911. It's just too big?

It retails for $890, street (I'm guessing) probably around $750, so I think $375 is realistic from a wholesaler. Yeah, it's just too heavy. Nice and thin, and has literally never failed, but I just don't reach for it in the morning when I have the PM9 feeling like a paper clip. I want a .45 option that I will carry. I also have only Kahrs and revolvers except for the Smith, so this will get my manual of arms consistent too.

[PaiN]

Just for you info, the CW45 for some reason(unlike the rest of the C line) is a bit longer in the slide than its P brother... CW45= 6.32" vs. P45= 6.07"

[Fedor]

http://www.gunblast.com/Kahr-45s.htm

[jlottmc]

Mine interchange just fine. Holsters, magazines, I even traded tops and such to show my wife it could be done. The only noticeable difference I found was in the weight, just enough to feel. My wife loves her CW. Either way, it's a great shooter, and you'll carry it often.

[gb6491]

Just for you info, the CW45 for some reason(unlike the rest of the C line) is a bit longer in the slide than its P brother... CW45= 6.32" vs. P45= 6.07"
I've seen those measurements on the Kahr site and have wondered about those differences. FWIW, my CW45 measures 6.232" from the back of the slide to the front of the barrel (the slide itself goes 6.181"). That said, I doubt it really means much in the scheme of things.
Regards,
Greg

[Cartman]

And the winner is, the CW45. I am such a shmuck, I made a deal with a guy having gone three quarters of the way through the show. I make the deal for a straight trade, and then walk an aisle over and find a used PM45 for $650. Oh well, what's done is done. I will post some photos in the next couple of days, I'll do a range report on the break in when I get to the range. Thanks again to everyone who contributed.

[jocko]

i've seen those measurements on the kahr site and have wondered about those differences. Fwiw, my cw45 measures 6.232" from the back of the slide to the front of the barrel (the slide itself goes 6.181"). That said, i doubt it really means much in the scheme of things.
Regards,
greg

who does the weights and measures at kahr sometimes???

U know that ol saying, figures don't lie but liars do figure!!!!

[Bawanna]

And the winner is, the CW45. I am such a shmuck, I made a deal with a guy having gone three quarters of the way through the show. I make the deal for a straight trade, and then walk an aisle over and find a used PM45 for $650. Oh well, what's done is done. I will post some photos in the next couple of days, I'll do a range report on the break in when I get to the range. Thanks again to everyone who contributed.

$650 for a used PM45 isn't really a gift. I think that's what I paid new for mine maybe 660 as I recall.

A straight trade for the PM45 might have been decent. Probably not that bad for a CW45 really since you were only figuring 375 for a dealer trade.

I left a nice Springfield 1911A1 all ported and polished, didn't look hardly shot on the table at our gunshow this morning. My son was kind of wanting it but managed to walk away. A fella was walking around with a blued version of the same gun, not ported for 750, he offered it for 675, he walked from that one too. More will power than me I guess.

[PCollen]

Your call. I now have both. The CW is a hair heavier, but not noticeable. Same smooth trigger, same everything. The wife LOVES her CW45, and if I had to buy another poly Kahr, it would probably be the CW series, just because I'm a cheap bastard. Both have been 100% as long as I remember to put them back together right (only issues I've had with the P45 were my fault). They both shoot well. Accessories like sights are starting to become more prevalent for the CW side too. Either way, it's a good call.

I've posted this question in a seperate topic thread. But with you having both the P45 and CW45, can you tell me if the CW45 has two metal slide rails on each side of the polymer body, or just rear metal slide rails only. My observation from on-line pics/vids is that the mid-point slide 'rails' are gooves formed into the polymer body, and not metal. Is this correct ?

[Bawanna]

Not correct. The slide rides on metal front and rear. The front the rails are only visible for a small area but they are actually one piece encapsulated in polymer, so stronger than they appear.
All the poly frames are essentially the same design.

[jlottmc]

The frames look identical to me. There are some internal differences on the slides but bear in mind that my P45 is older by several years. Like I said, I took the top ends and switched them, but didn't shoot them just to show my wife that she really does have what is basically a P45 that is less costly. The frame rails are there, and what you're looking at are not what the slide rides on. What the slide rides on is where the beloved notch is. There is metal were the slide rides, it just doesn't look like it.

[Old Salt]

I have both the CW45 and CW9 both great shooting guns with 0 malfuctions. My new full time carry is the CW45 with 6+1 230 grain speer gold dot.

[gb6491]

Not correct. The slide rides on metal front and rear. The front the rails are only visible for a small area but they are actually one piece encapsulated in polymer, so stronger than they appear.
All the poly frames are essentially the same design.
To add to Bawanna's excellent description of the rails on the poly frame guns,
you might want to take a look here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=765313 or this video I made as a response on another forum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0CTP0iidUU
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Excellent links and video GB. You never fail to amaze me with the good stuff you share. What a great trick with the magnet. I learned of it seeing a picture of one blown up. The magnet is way more better.

[gb6491]

Thanks boss!

[PCollen]

To add to Bawanna's excellent description of the rails on the poly frame guns,
you might want to take a look here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=765313 or this video I made as a response on another forum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0CTP0iidUU
Regards,
Greg

Those forward 'rails' you refer to are NOT what the slide rides on. Those are part of the steel frame reinforcement that is installed recessed into the poly frame fromt and rear (see the P or PM series product video's on the Kahr web site). The bottom of the steel slide does not extend below the top of the poly frame..yet it would have to if it were to ride on those steel reinforcing 'rails'. The slide rails to secure the slide to the gun, and control it's fore and aft, and left to right motion, and what the slide rides on are those inverted L-shaped tracks molded into the top of the poly body. The magnet in your video is being attracted to the front and rear reinforcing frame, not to the the slide rails.

[Bawanna]

You must have a different one. The front of my slide extends below the top of the frame and has narrow slots that align perfectly where your reinforcing metal strips are. About the front 3/4" or so of the slide rides on them rails.

My bad.

[PCollen]

You must have a different one. The front of my slide extends below the top of the frame and has narrow slots that align perfectly where your reinforcing metal strips are. About the front 3/4" or so of the slide rides on them rails.

My bad.

To clarify, I DON't have a Kahr and that is why I was asking about it. I only watched the product and takedown videos for the P-series Kahrs, cause I am interested in the PM9, and what I think I observed was that the slide rides on rails that are formed of poly on the upper edge of the poly frame; the rails and frame are all of one piece. I compared that to the metal rails clearly shown in the following Glock video starting around 4:00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4wgKz7yKak&feature=relmfu

I'll just have to go to my local gun shop and ask to see one, and have the guy break it down for me as part of my consideration on whether to buy it. Thanks for your reply, though.

[Bawanna]

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

If you look at this diagram, it's the best I could find at the moment and look at the very front end of the slide you'll see the grooves I mention that ride on those thin narrow rails in the PM9 and other polymer frame Kahrs.

Theres actually more slide rail bearing surface on the Kahr than the 4 contact points of the Glock. This isn't a negative to Glock they work fine, but theres no shortage of rails on the Kahr either.

If you look at one in person, you won't even have to take it down in order to see it from the front. I just looked at my PM45 along with a quick close up view of a very large Gold Dot Hollow Point at the other end. My life passed before my eyes. Don't try this at home kids. I learned it from Wyn.

[jocko]

the bulk of the force of the kahr slides is the back rails. which are also one peace inbedded in the polymer. the front rails just keep the slide in total alignment..

[gb6491]

Those forward 'rails' you refer to are NOT what the slide rides on. Those are part of the steel frame reinforcement that is installed recessed into the poly frame fromt and rear (see the P or PM series product video's on the Kahr web site). The bottom of the steel slide does not extend below the top of the poly frame..yet it would have to if it were to ride on those steel reinforcing 'rails'. The slide rails to secure the slide to the gun, and control it's fore and aft, and left to right motion, and what the slide rides on are those inverted L-shaped tracks molded into the top of the poly body. The magnet in your video is being attracted to the front and rear reinforcing frame, not to the the slide rails.
No, you are mistaken in your assumption (understandable, as you mention in a later post that you don't have a Kahr pistol). Those rails that I pointed out in the video (and nebodaky circled in the photo from the Glock Talk link above) are what the slide rides on. Bawanna and Jocko have explained it, but here are a few photos that should further illustrate the slide's interface with the steel rails molded into the frame:
http://i52.tinypic.com/16i7g4p.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2a0ns5t.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/wmo2og.jpg
The poly rails you mention serve to guide the slide onto the metal rails. The pistol would function fine without them. I'm sure that once you have the opportunity to actually handle/inspect a poly frame Kahr you'll see what we are trying to convey to you.
Regards,
Greg

[Bawanna]

Excellent photos GB (as usual). Pictures are worth at least a 1000 words.

Makes it much more clear to understand.

You rock.

[jocko]

yes indeed a picture tutorial is always better than a jocko explanation. nice job again gb, so so glad we have u here. thats an awfully big hole in that barrel that wouldn't be one of those new fangled 45's, now would it.

[Bawanna]

I think it's one of those new foul weather NW barrels. When it goes to raining too hard you can just crawl inside and stay dry.

[gb6491]

.... thats an awfully big hole in that barrel that wouldn't be one of those new fangled 45's, now would it.
Why, yes it would be :)
http://i53.tinypic.com/x55si0.jpg

[PCollen]

No, you are mistaken in your assumption (understandable, as you mention in a later post that you don't have a Kahr pistol). Those rails that I pointed out in the video (and nebodaky circled in the photo from the Glock Talk link above) are what the slide rides on. Bawanna and Jocko have explained it, but here are a few photos that should further illustrate the slide's interface with the steel rails molded into the frame:



The poly rails you mention serve to guide the slide onto the metal rails. The pistol would function fine without them. I'm sure that once you have the opportunity to actually handle/inspect a poly frame Kahr you'll see what we are trying to convey to you.
Regards,
Greg


Thank you VERY much for posting those pics, and your patience in explaining it to me......now I understand this much better.

PC

[jocko]

u can't beat GBG6491 photo work. We would be lost here without his expertise..

[jyo]

I picked up a slightly used all black P45 a couple of years ago---the former owner had sent it back to Kahr several times for various issues and was DISGUSTED with it---I knew this going in, but the price was right and included everything along with three mags total---the damn thing runs perfect for me and shoots right to point of aim! I also own two CW9s (one for me, one for wifey)---I really don't see enough differences between the P models and the CW series to worry about---spend some range time to get used to the long DAO trigger and you are good to go!

[Bawanna]

I picked up a slightly used all black P45 a couple of years ago---the former owner had sent it back to Kahr several times for various issues and was DISGUSTED with it---I knew this going in, but the price was right and included everything along with three mags total---the damn thing runs perfect for me and shoots right to point of aim! I also own two CW9s (one for me, one for wifey)---I really don't see enough differences between the P models and the CW series to worry about---spend some range time to get used to the long DAO trigger and you are good to go!

Warms my heart to hear your story. A classic tale we don't hear nearly often enough. Welcome, hope you like it here.

[LSP972]

Why, yes it would be :)
http://i53.tinypic.com/x55si0.jpg

Man, this is EXACTLY what I needed. We're having a spirited discussion here at the lab regarding 9mm vs .45 ACP.

I just showed this photo to the guys championing the sissy gun... and there was simply nothing they could say! Discussion over...:33:

.

[jlottmc]

What's worse is the fact that you can do that with 40 too, not nearly the same amount of room but you can do it.

[Bawanna]

It is rather profound and meaningful. I'd not get too loose attaching the word "Sissy" to the sissy 9mm round. Theres an awful lot of guys here that truely love their 9's. Some even are enamored with the pathetic 380 round.
I once held a 32, had to have a magnifying glass to read the head stamp.

I can't believe I said any of this. Maybe just to fire up a pretty boring monday morning on kahrtalk? Excuse me while I slip into my fire proof suit and ballistic vest.

[Old Salt]

Man, this is EXACTLY what I needed. We're having a spirited discussion here at the lab regarding 9mm vs .45 ACP.

I just showed this photo to the guys championing the sissy gun... and there was simply nothing they could say! Discussion over...:33:

.

That’s way I like the 45 acp. Even if my 45 JHP personal protection round dose not expand to my expectations the 230 grain bullet will still make one hell of a hole.

[MikeyKahr]

Man, this is EXACTLY what I needed. We're having a spirited discussion here at the lab regarding 9mm vs .45 ACP.

I just showed this photo to the guys championing the sissy gun... and there was simply nothing they could say! Discussion over...:33:

.

Great pic, gb - excellent photography. As for the comment about "sissy gun", LSP972, I highly doubt the first thing someone hit by a 9mm Gold Dot or HST would think would be "Man, what a sissy gun!" My intention is not to get into a caliber war. I'd rather not get hit by either. There are other more important battles to fight than 1) which round is best and subsequently [what it eventually diminishes into] 2) who's more manly. You 45 guys are just so much better than us 9mm sissies, LSP972. :cheer2:Your rounds just rock and ours suck. :cheer2: Discussion over.

[LSP972]

Got some knickers in a twist, did I? You guys need to get over yourselves.

I know, probably better than you, that the 9mm is a viable cartridge. I have been involved in numerous shooting investigations involving 9mms, and I see- several times a month- 9mm ball bullets that have killed someone on the street (I work in a crime lab, a sweet retirement gig). My wife carries a 9mm; you think I'd allow that if I didn't believe the cartridge wasn't effective???

Its a running joke between us here in the lab, okay?

So, Mikey, take some ibuprofen for your bruised ego, and relax...

.

[Bawanna]

Go easy on Mikey, my nephews got the power of bawanna covering his back.

Your sweet gig at the lab sounds indeed sweet. Bet you see all kinds of things, alot you probably would prefer not to see.

I pick on 9 and really on 380's just cause I enjoy it but theres certainly a place for them and a need for them. No need for a caliber war here for sure.

Now if we want to argue about manliness I'm up for that. Or whose dog can kick the other guys dogs arse, that would be good.

I only got a Beagle, sadly born without a fully functioning brain so I suspect she won't go far in the dog race but we'll enter and make a showing anyhow.

[MW surveyor]

O Boy, caliber war:59:

Need to get my :popcorn:

[Old Salt]

I've got the CW45, two 9's a CW9 and PM9 and even a 380 LCP so I have all the bases covered.

[Bawanna]

I've got the CW45, two 9's a CW9 and PM9 and even a 380 LCP so I have all the bases covered.

Yeah ya do for sure. But how big is your dog?

[jocko]

O Boy, caliber war:59:

Need to get my :popcorn:

no caliber war with us 9mm guys, WE know who rules:banplease:

[Bawanna]

I think we need to switch tracks. Who wants to arm wrestle?

Jocko you got one of them purse dogs or a Min Pin that rides around in a basket on your Harley with ya. (Notice I didn't say scooter?) Waking up to that horse head really showed me who rules. I concede with honor and shear terror.

[jocko]

I think we need to switch tracks. Who wants to arm wrestle?

Jocko you got one of them purse dogs or a Min Pin that rides around in a basket on your Harley with ya. (Notice I didn't say scooter?) Waking up to that horse head really showed me who rules. I concede with honor and shear terror.

and us northern Italian,s have fallen on some hard times lately, so for awhile we willbe seinding photos of horseheads instead of the real thing. trust me the horseloved that idea..

[Old Salt]

Yeah ya do for sure. But how big is your dog?

Bawanna, no pets, when my wife and I moved back to our home town in Pennsylvania we rented a townhouse in a 55+ community. No pets allowed. I have a wife but she is no b--ch so I guess that does not count. I better say that especially if I ever want to get another Kahr. Guess you know who wears the pants in this family.

[Fulton_722]

Yep, 9mm is a worthless round.

Wait a minute ... didn't I just buy a Kahr CW9 to accompany my Glock 33 (357 Sig.) when I need something a little smaller ? ? ?

That 9mm may not be too bad after all.

[MW surveyor]

Ok guys, I've got 3-22s, 1-380, 1-38/357, 2 - 9 mm and 1 - 45 (as of last week).
Guess which one I carry?








The CW9

[MikeyKahr]

Got some knickers in a twist, did I? You guys need to get over yourselves.

I know, probably better than you, that the 9mm is a viable cartridge. I have been involved in numerous shooting investigations involving 9mms, and I see- several times a month- 9mm ball bullets that have killed someone on the street (I work in a crime lab, a sweet retirement gig). My wife carries a 9mm; you think I'd allow that if I didn't believe the cartridge wasn't effective???

Its a running joke between us here in the lab, okay?

So, Mikey, take some ibuprofen for your bruised ego, and relax...

No knickers to twist, and no need for ibuprofen either. Thanks for telling us "guys" we need to "get over ourselves" (that helps the cause). Thanks also for giving us a glimpse into your curriculum vitae, how dare I even respond in the first place?

P.S. Thanks for getting my 6, uncle B.

[LSP972]

Thanks for telling us "guys" we need to "get over ourselves" (that helps the cause).

And what cause would that be?

.

[jocko]

I picked up a slightly used all black P45 a couple of years ago---the former owner had sent it back to Kahr several times for various issues and was DISGUSTED with it---I knew this going in, but the price was right and included everything along with three mags total---the damn thing runs perfect for me and shoots right to point of aim! I also own two CW9s (one for me, one for wifey)---I really don't see enough differences between the P models and the CW series to worry about---spend some range time to get used to the long DAO trigger and you are good to go!

my point, that some issues are shooter issues and not the gun, but try to tell me or any other shooter that the problem just might be the person behind the gun.

I always wondered when kahr gets back a perfectly good gun and they cannot produce the issues the owner had but just puts down on the work sheet, "yadda yadda yadda, test fired all is OK. for if they just sent it back and said nothing wrong, it would piss off the owner to no extent. Just my 2 cents.