PM9 Confidence shaken - advice???

[ApeWare]

I just purchased a used PM9 (built ~2006) picked it up last thursday. I shot about 60 rounds through it during the waiting period and had several fail to feeds, nut I figured it was that the gun needed a good cleaning.

I finally got to the range today - after doing a complete breakdown and cleaning of the slide. Had 2 fail to feeds in my first mag, one in the second, and my buddy had one in his first mag. I took it back to the gun shop and their gunsmith ran 50 rounds with no issue. I ran several mags without issue, then I had 2 slide lock failures. The gunsmith said I was probably limpmwristing the gun - I assured him that was not the case.

I left the gun with the shop to have the gunsmth look at it, and possibly send it back to Kahr to have them look at it.

My question is since the gun was used, should I just insist they take the gun back and let me pay the difference for a new one? Or should I let them send the used on back to Kahr? Or another option??

My trust in this gun is simply not there and I don't know how many rounds it is going to take to earn my confidence.

I would appreciate any advice as I intended this as my carry gun and at this point I am not sure I would trust it as a paper weight. Just not sure the best way to handle this with the gun shop.

[jocko]

onceu lose faith in somnethnng, kinda har dto get it bac, If it wasme, I would see if youcould apply that towards a new PM9, they are a good functioning gun, and the fact that their gunsmith ran 50 perfect rounds through it, (if indeed he dide), does indicate shooter error. Kinda hard to fix what ain['t broken.

See if you can start over and go with anew kahr, and then hit the kahr tech section and look at the kahr lube chart and the propper prepping of your new kahr, both willhelp make your first event a good one.

[CJB]

One thing not stated - was the approximate number of rounds already through the pistol, and/or when the recoil spring was changed.

A new spring really needs a new breakin as far as I can tell. You said its a 2006ish pistol, but was it carried lots, and almost unfired, or was it shot a lot?

There is no basic or intrinsic design flaw in the PM series feeding. Recoil spring, and magazine spring. If the recoil spring is too tight (new) you're going to get pseudo-limp wrist results. If the magazine spring is too loose you're going to get some cartridge rise related results, which may be similar to a recoil spring that is too loose. And you may be having some combination of the several issues.

You might want to call the shop, have them get a new magazine spring, and recoil spring - heck - ALL new springs in the gun, and break it in like it was new.

[ApeWare]

Thanks for the feedback guys.
The gunsmith did in fact run a box through it - he was 2 lanes down from me.

As far as "buyers remorse" all I can say is I bought a Glock 19 a month ago and have not regretted the purchase. I have put almost 1000 rounds through it in the last month and it has never failed to feed or fire. The G19 is too big for every day carry- for me- and was hoping the Kahr would be that everyday carry. I like the PM9's size and feel and the only reason I am shaken is because of *this* PM9's performance. I will see what the shop says tomorrow, but I think swapping it may be the be the best way to proceed.

[ApeWare]

@CJB, I felt the slide action on the used one vs. A new one and there was a significant difference in the slide spring tension. It felt like the gun had been fired plenty - I could also tell it had been fired plenty after doing the full breakdown and cleaning of the slide.

You may have struck onto something with the possibility that the springs are *too* loose/worn. I have no idea how many rounds it has through it. I assume the recoil spring has never been changed.

[bonjorno2]

sell your pm9 and get a cm9.... either way i have yet to shoot my glock 27 and carry it more than my pm9 which i haven't shot either.... Like i've said before kahr is a great gun, but you need to have patience and know that you might have a few hiccups along the way until the gun is in tip top shape to carry! However when it is in tip top shape it trumps glock anyday of the week! Good luck to you and keep us posted.

[CJB]

@CJB, I felt the slide action on the used one vs. A new one and there was a significant difference in the slide spring tension. It felt like the gun had been fired plenty - I could also tell it had been fired plenty after doing the full breakdown and cleaning of the slide.

You may have struck onto something with the possibility that the springs are *too* loose/worn. I have no idea how many rounds it has through it. I assume the recoil spring has never been changed.

Don't forget the magazine spring... cartridge rise, rise time rather, is very important. The smaller the gun gets, the lighter the slide, faster moving parts, that magazine has to be Johnny-on-the-Spot with a fresh round!

[ApeWare]

@CJB fortunately, I actually have 2 brand new mags on the way, I will try that as well.

[Lobo_79]

@CJB fortunately, I actually have 2 brand new mags on the way, I will try that as well.

I'm sure you've already thought about this but when your new magazines arrive give them an initial cleaning to remove any preservatives. My PM9 mags work best when they are clean and dry. As a previous poster pointed out these guns have short actions and cycle times. Timing can be a lot more critical.

There are some serious experts on this site that can offer you some really good advice...hang in there, you can whip this problem and learn a lot in the process.

[jocko]

@CJB fortunately, I actually have 2 brand new mags on the way, I will try that as well.

strange that another person can take your gun and fire 50 perfect roundsout of it and you seem to be not able to. IMO that just doesn't sound like a gun issue.. Might jsut be you and the gun need to get more acquainted with each other and rounds down range is a cure for both..

[melissa5]

Well, what about ammo? My PM9 had been perfect for 150 rounds then I fed it MagTech and had a few failures. Were you and the gunsmith using the same brand of ammo?

[ApeWare]

@jocko your logic does not escape me. Here's how I look at it. If my carry gun requires me to hop on one leg while rubbing my belly then it is not the gun for me. I purchased the Kahr based on my research and MANY posts by people like you. I wanted a reliable carry gun that hopefully I would never be called to fire, but would fire reliably if called to do so.

I really don't believe I am "limp wristing" the gun; I am not hitting the mag release or obstructing the slide. I am not saying I am infallible, but I have spent a LOT of time reading this forum and I'm aware of many of the issues with the Kahr and have been careful to NOT make the simple mistakes - perhaps I am wrong, but I am giving this PM9 every opportunity to perform well for me. If this gun requires the strength and hands of an orangutan (which the gunsmith has) to get it to not fail, then this is not the gun for me. And by "this" I mean this specific used Kahr. I still have faith in the brand - just not this specific gun.

@melissa5 - Yes the gunsmith and I were using the same ammo "Independence 115gr".

[ApeWare]

@jocko, one more thing, the gunsmith DID have one fail to feed, but he said it was because he must have hit the mag release accidentally. Also worth noting, this gunsmith believes he is the only infallible person in the universe - I have heard his speak about customers and his co-workers and his first response when I mentioned the issue was 5 different ways how it was probably my fault.

I just want the reliably of my Glock in the PM9 form factor.

[jocko]

no dobut if you can't feel good about owning and shooting a kahr, it is best to peddle it and move to what please you. Because a gunsmith can make it work and you have issues, means that the gun just diesn't fit you. Not rocket science, just a fact that this gun just might not be right for you. If the gun didn't work right in someone else hands, then I would say send the gun back in but kahr is more than likely going to get the same results as the smitty got. I am not arguing with you in any way either, just my point is they can't fix what ain't broken. that to say that a new PM9 would be perfect for you. That is hard to say and not sure if it was I that I would want too possably waste more money finding out either.

For me you have a couple good choices, continue shooting the gun and work yourself into it and see if things work out ok, or get a gun that works right in your hands. Your the one gonna carry it, not the smitty, remember that.

[ApeWare]

I understand what you are saying and appreciate your input. If I was the only one with feed issues I would have no problem saying it was obviously something I was doing; my wife (who shoots very well) and my buddy had the same issue with the gun. Just thinking that if the 3 of us had the same issue, and the gun smith had an issue but claimed he "must have hit the mag release", there is likely something going on with the gun...or maybe I want there to be an issue with *this* gun because I really like the PM9 but have just has issues with *this* used gun. If the issue is me (and my wife and my buddy) then obviously the Kahr is not for me.

They are supposed to get back to me sometime today. I really appreciate your comments. I just wanted to see what the community thought about the situation.

[jocko]

no argument from me, u gotta do what u gotta do. It's ur gun no "ours" Might indeed be gun related..

[Bawanna]

With a carry gun confidence is everything. If you lack faith in your carry gun it's time to move on or address the issue till you get it back.
It seems your doing just that.

Everybody has their own personal standards on what is acceptable to reach their mandatory confidence level. To me that standard can never be too high.

Sometimes patience is a big key in getting a gun to meet those standards as well. Patience is something I'm not good at.

[bonjorno2]

get a glock 26 and call it a day, or if you want a bigger round get the 27 or 36.

[DKD]

I know, I know, Glocks are good pistols, but...they are so damn ugly !!!!!
I can't hit a bull in the ass with them...use to a more American grip angle...like say on a 1911.....yea I know did I say that????the devil made me say that.
I don't at all care for their eropean grip angle. I prefer an XD, Kahr, or yea them damn 1911's. I also prefer a 45 ACP to most any other wonder 9mm. I'll carry a 9mm for concealment reasons as a compromise...and I do hate to compromize.
When in doubt whip it out...that is your 45. The old saying comes to mind "God didn't create men equal...Sam Colt did"

[Bawanna]

+1 except I don't compromise. If I can't take a 45, I ain't going.

[bonjorno2]

^^ ok glock 30 or 36 then skip the 26/27 and if you take the 30 you will have 11 rounds rather than 8 with a 1911 and still weigh less. (in most cases) Don't get me wrong I love my 1911 and cocked and locked is great but if that beautiful 1911 falls on the ground it will get hurt where the ugly glock doesn't!

[ltxi]

With a carry gun confidence is everything. If you lack faith in your carry gun it's time to move ..................

Absolute key and nail right on the head!! If there's the slightest doubt in your mind about what's gonna happen when you draw it and pull the trigger you shouldn't be trusting that gun with your or anyone else's life!

[ltxi]

+1 except I don't compromise. If I can't take a 45, I ain't going.

I'd really like to agree with you here, Bawanna, but I can't.

Ya' just can't hide a .45 in a Speedo. :cool:

[melissa5]

I'd really like to agree with you here, Bawanna, but I can't.

Ya' just can't hide a .45 in a Speedo. :cool:

Ha! I've seen some butt cheeks that you could hide a .45 in! :eek:

MY glocks are not ugly. :53:

[Bawanna]

I never wear Speedo's although they did approach me, something about modeling for some commercials or bill boards or something.

[ApeWare]

Verdict is in, gunsmith said it looked like it had a bad follower, so they are giving me a new mag - as I said I have 2 new mags on their way. I will run a couple boxes through it tomorrow and see if that resolves the issue.

Will post update tomorrow.

[10Kahrs]

what kind of ammo are you using? swap out the recoil and mag springs and give speer 124gr a try

[ApeWare]

Independence 115gr. Since the mags will be new I don't thing the mag springs will be necessary, but depending on how it goes tomorrow, I may have them chqnge out All of the springs and follow the breakin procedures.

[CJB]

Ha! I've seen some butt cheeks that you could hide a .45 in! :eek:


Some years ago, a colleague of mine, and I, designed a fictional line of CCW holsters for "concealed in the butt crack" carry... primary by bubble butt wimmens.

This lead to a series of possible product model names. Such as they were:

We had the "Butt'er-Up" model.
You heard of the Jack-Slide? We had the Crack Slide.
And the Crack'r-Jack (same as above, but with thumb-break).
There was the Hole'd-Up model.
And the Ass'assin model.
Etc etc.

Recently... after observing a very large women pull a ringing cell phone from her cleavage, then pull an open package of cheeze crackers out of there too (for her whiny kid), I've decided to concentrate on the "cleavage organizer", so wimmens had a place to store stuff like a phone, keys, tissues, pens/pencils, calculator, notepad, etc. Product name for that will be the "Bosom Buddy".

Venture capital accepted!

[CJB]

Well mine will clip to the bra, and provide different sizes for different... "asset geometry".

[Bawanna]

I quite wearing a bra, gave me a rash and I got tired of guys not looking at my face when they talked to me. Sadist.

[ApeWare]

Just got back from the range. Gunsmith cleaned the gun and replaced the mag. I ran 50 rounds through the PM9, using the new mag and the other two new mags I just purchased; worked flawlessly. Rapid fired 3 mags in a row and had no issues; fairly tight groups.

I plan on running another 200 flawless rounds before carrying, but I'm thinking the magazine was likely the issue. Thanks for everyone's input. I may still replace all of the springs as was suggested, we'll see how the next 200 rounds go.