User Error, What Is The Percentage???

[Old Salt]

I’m sure there is no way of knowing but I was just wondering. If you could list the issues people have with their semi automatic handgun I wonder what percentage would be contributed to user error? I would bet it’s fairly high.

[Pa Kahr]

Mine was failure to fully eject spent cartridge. Two somewhat knowledgable people told me I was limp wristing the CW45. But it was happening too frequently and with all makes of ammo. Sent back to Kahr, it was a bad extractor, which they replaced as well as they polished the ejector. No problems since.

[jocko]

User error can normally be eliminated by letter another good shooter shoot your weapon. If he can produce the same symptoms, that IMO it ain't user error. When I mention user error to a shooter with issues, I am merely advising him that he needs to eliminate that possability. It can and it does happen alot. I seem to remember back 4 or 5 years ago talking with a kel tec inside person who claims (his version not mine) that over 50%of all the guns they get back that there is nothing wrong with them. All their guns are small ass guns to, almost weightless..

I am sure that is not the case with kahrs but one should take the word user error with a grain of salt when it is mentioned, as merely one thing to eliminate before panicking .

When a person has issue with his gun, he needs to eliminate all the possables that mght be causing the issues, so that when you do have to send it back you can document exactly what you have checked out. There are some who take a gun out of the box and shoot it and if that fokker acts up one time, they are on the phone to who ever made the product. That to me is not the right thing to do but everyone has their own drum to beat to..

[Old Salt]

OK, let me rephrase my question. I’m not asking for individual issues, or any one type of manufacturer. On a whole of all the reported problems what do you think the percentage would be that can be contributed back to the owner.

[jocko]

now u asking for assumptions, which as u know is a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess). But I will bite on it and say iwth kahrs, OTHER than the P380 user error is less than 10%. With the P380 I think user error is higher but I also think the P380 is more problematic to. My little piddly survey shows almost a 50% return ratio and that is terrible,, no doubt user error plays a part of the P380 issues but what percentage I don't know, as most who get a returned P380, kahr indeed did replace some parts, so that should eliminate user orror.

Very few of the big kahrs we see coming back from repair states no issues, test fired gun is OK. again most report that the repair sheet stated some replaced parts, Mostly trigger bars have been the replacment part.

I have felt that this forumn with some of the knowledeable people on board here and if an owner has issues and tries all the suggestions posted to him to try to help and it doesn't work, then shooter error has almost been elimnianted.

I tend to think that these small ass guns like kahr makes and others are gonna produce a higher % of shooter error do to their size and weight, Bug guns don't produce the issues these small guns do, size and wieght speaks for that to--I think

I have always recommended a shooter when sending his gun back to include the magazines for magazines are the culprit of many guns not functioning. Now no magazines, kahr is gonna use there bench magaazines which we know work therefore they have not solved your issue either. I attribute that to human error in not sending the mags back with the defective gun.

Ur question old salt is a good one and I am sure u know from our stand point we are all just giving it the old SWATG approach.

[Bill K]

OK, I'll bite. 5% or less based on thinking about all the gun forums I visit and how often a poster reports a problem and the comes back to post that it was his/her own user error. Of course there is no way of knowing how many folks are to embarrassed to re-post.

Bill K.

[BuckeyeBlast]

I'd guess the vast majority are user error, 90%+

Jocko - as a problematic P380 owner, I'm curious - where's this poll of P380 problems?

[jocko]

good point. To me it ain't a problem of user error unless it goes back to the factory and sent back with nothing wrong with it

Hell we have read reports here of gummy striker channels and the new owner would not know of this unless we had thee good members here telling him what to look and and how to do it. That is not IMO really shooer error, I don't expect a person to know everything about this new gun like some of us do here. I personaly know nadda about HK's so I would ge posting if I owned one my issues and hoping wiser HK owners could walk me through this. Sometimes as we have seen here , merely a good cleaning of the striker channel eliminates alot of issues. Should those areas be good to go,

Hell some shooters never heard of the term limping a gun either, Until the advent of the smallass guns,,, limping was a seldom used term because it just didn't happen

[Bawanna]

I'd guess the vast majority are user error, 90%+

Jocko - as a problematic P380 owner, I'm curious - where's this poll of P380 problems?

http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6088&highlight=380

[OldLincoln]

If you include issues discussed that go away with proper cleaning and break-in as user errors, then I'd say at least half of them discussed here. There is a learning curve and coaching is a normal day here. I get a sense of satisfaction reading of a shooter with issues eliminating causes until all is working well.

[Willieboy]

Sometimes overlooked is the fact some guns are more prone to malfunction when the user fails to function properly. Or, stated positively, some guns are more forgiving of user malfs than others.

[jocko]

probably right there to. I have stated before that a gun and the shooter have to mate up properly for everything to go right. Good point..

[CJB]

A user error will usually be described with the error code ID-10-t

[Jeremiah/Az]

I would not make a guess to the question, but I think a lot of people panic when a self defense gun malfunctions. These real small guns are something relatively new to most people. A revolver seldom has a problem. Most of us grew up with revolvers or big semis which are less prone to malfs. I see some say on gun boards that if a gun ever malfs, they will never trust that gun for SD. What a crock!:(

[MikeyKahr]

I see some say on gun boards that if a gun ever malfs, they will never trust that gun for SD. What a crock!:(

My toilet malfunctioned, therefore, I will never use a toilet again! :boink:

[jocko]

now thats a good one Mikey!! question, do you send it back to the maker full of crapola to show tha tit malfunctioned or what???

I wonder what the work sheet would say: " Recieved toilet, full of crapola, cleaned toiliet, polished the bowl, installed new flush valve, tested with hot loads and light loads, all is well. NO charge still under warranty!!

signed: Ima shitter
commode tech

[Tilos]

I would have to say 100% user.
If NOT used it would not fail, ie. a safe queen.
Tilos

[TheTman]

One thing I failed to do was let another shooter shoot my CW45. I very sure I was not limp-wristing it. I didn't figure that the trigger not resetting when the gun went fully into battery was a user issue. If someone thinks it could be, please enlighten me. And then squeezing the trigger a couple more times without moving the slide or anything, or changing my grip, and having the gun fire, was really perplexing to me and pissing me off.
I guess I was leery of having someone else shoot the gun, as I didn't know when or if it was going to go off. I didn't want someone else pulling the trigger, and it not fire, then maybe they lay the thing on the table, or eject the mag and maybe one of those actions would set it off. I figured the best thing to do was try and get 200 rounds through it, see if anything got better, then call Kahr. Not having anything ever happen like that before, except for a hang fire on an SKS, I just wasn't sure what to do other than keep it pointed down range. Would anyone have done anything different?

As far as guns being sent back for user error, I'm sure it happens a lot more with these smaller polymer framed guns. I was talking to the range master when I was having trouble with my CW40, and he got me straightened out, and told me that a lot of folks have problems with their first polymer framed guns, that they flex a lot more than a metal frame gun, and cause people to think the gun is the problem and not the way they shoot it.

[Bawanna]

Not me, I'd of done the same. Had to be frustrating to get thru 200 with it doing that. Not resetting could be user error but in your case your determined it wasn't.

Someone using an improper grip could read your issue and think they have the same thing happening. Sent it to Kahr and they'd see it works perfectly. That would be user error.

Sometimes hard to diagnose these things and another reason it's so important to clearly explain and note what you've done to try and figure things out when sending stuff to kahr or your local smith for that matter.

[OldLincoln]

I don't know about your range, but mine is indoor and the guys there are familiar with a very wide selection of guns including Kahrs. I'm sure they would shoot my gun to rule out user issues and I would be confident they did it right.

I wouldn't just ask anybody to shoot it, especially if they had a 22 as they may have more shooter issues than you. But if you see someone with a large caliber shooting well as you observe how the handle recoil you might ask telling them you want to rule out limp wristing.

[CJB]

One thing I failed to do was let another shooter shoot my CW45. I very sure I was not limp-wristing it.

In my range days... which were back in the mid 80's to mid 90's... we saw our share of issues with new, or used guns. Here's the thing - yes it can be "user related" but those are not always "user error".

For instance, women not being able to rack a slide. User related, but not really user "error". How about small handed or females not being able to manipulate a cylinder latch? Happens! Not being able to load a magazine. Happens! And then, with auto loaders, you do see a certain percentage, a low number for sure but... they're just unable to get a perfectly good pistol to work. I'm not sure its all limp wristing. I think there is some undefined group of shooters (potential shooters?) that because of their skeletal makeup, because of their musculature, because of the size of hands and fingers and arms... all sorts of "user related" issues... they just cannot get a certain type of gun to work well. Yet those same shooters can shoot other autoloaders all day long with no issues. Is this a case of go figure? Perhaps. I think its more likely that certain designs, or implementations are just more sensitive to needing things "just right" in order to work well. The designs window of tolerance is more narrow. This seems to hold true as smaller, lighter designs with faster moving parts come along. Case in point - the Kahr PM's have very little "over travel" in the slide. When the slide comes backward, its point of stopping is just barely enough to allow a fresh round to rise from the magazine. In fact... that fresh round has probably moved forward just a little which is a good thing for feeding. In comparison, a full size 1911 has a good half inch or more of "overtravel", and that, coupled with a larger, heavier and slower moving slide, give the next cartridge in the magazine more time to rise up into the correct position. Thats an obvious thing, but I'm sure there are countless minute details of operation, that if stacked against a shooter, may make that shooter one of the unlucky few who just wont do well with a particular design. Topping it all off - it could be caliber sensitive. "My 9mm shoots fine, but my 40 wont work at all!". Those types of comments are no stranger to shooters and manufacturers alike. Just saying... sometimes, its just not the right gun. Sometimes, it all can be "right" but you might have to do something unconventional to make it work. And you have to decide to live with it or not. I bet that scenario happens more than we think, even though its not a huge huge problem.