losing my ****: PM9 problems at 1000 rds+

[JD Cowles]

So at about 950-1000 statistically flawless rounds I start getting failure to feed problems. Thought it was my grip at first and had a decent session in between but Saturday at the range I had a half dozen fail to feeds over 100 rounds. Mostly WWB 115gr ammo that has given me no probs to date. I have a new recoil spring assembly that I have yet to try as I'm not convinced that's given out yet. The latest ftf's appear at round 2 of 6+1 and it looks like the casing is getting hung up on the extractor. A buddy at the range looked at it, fired a few rounds and said it looked dry. I have changed lube recently (about the same time the ft-feeds started), could that be the culprit? I cleaned and went back to the M-7 and left it pretty wet like I did during break in. Hope to get out and test this week but any suggestions would be appreciated. If the problems persist I will swap out the recoil spring mid session. If that doesn't work it may be going back to Kahr.

I love this pistol too much to give up. Help a brother out...
:32:

[jocko]

I doubt if it ws a lube thing. change recoil springs and retest. Personally kahrs don't need alot of lube either,but every gun has its own personality. If you have another magazine try it out also to see if you can narrow down what it is tha tis causing the issues. Again I would doubt it is the magazine but check it out., thake the magazine apart to see that everything is OK, u could have a cracked follower and not know it. You need to eliminate allthe possables before thinking about sending it back..

[JD Cowles]

Me too, but my intuition doesn't seem to be working these days. I sure as heck don't want to send it back but these frustrating range trips are getting old. I guess what's happening would be better defined as a 'failure to return to battery'. Happened with different mags (have three) at different times. The lube thing is sticking in my head and I did switch to Tri-Flow for some reason a few weeks ago. When I field stripped it at the range it was really dry but I guess I'll throw the new recoil spring in and see if it helps.

Do I have to repeat the break in with a new recoil spring assembly? I just want to get this thing reliable and move on to shooting lots of holes in stuff with it...

[jocko]

no break in needed with new recoil springs and indeed if u feel it cold be the lube, then go back to what you were using. I love TW25 grease on my slide rails. u can with tieir syring applicator just lay a nice smmoth line right inside those rails. I think SHOOTER CHOICE makes a grease with applicator that would work nicely to. The TW25 you wouldneed too order it from Mil-comm.com

Ftrb could indeed be recoil related IMO...

forgot to ask, is your PM9 the blunt nose version or the beveled fron end version? If you have the blunt nose version, now called the old style slidew, that recoil assembly shouldhave 13 coils, if you hve the beveled slide version that recoil assembly shouldhave 15 coils, neithe rone will interchange and work.

[kpm9]

clean the gun and scrub under the extractor.

I don't know why you wouldn't want to focus there, as you stated it seem to be getting hung up on the extractor.

[JD Cowles]

hmmm...haven't cleaned under the extractor, gonna do that tonight thanks for the idea. this is why i love this forum.

jocko, i was using shooters choice from the get go. seemed to really like it so i switched back for sure. it's a beveled slide (ian asked when i called kahr to be sure to send the correct spring/assembly). it's an IC6xxx so relatively new (late 10 early 11 right?).

since i have your attention, either of you care to share how you clean the receiver/frame etc? i usually just hit it with a toothbrush and some gunzilla (light) to get the visible gunk and old grease off. should i blast it out with gunscrubber or some such? all the cleaning instructions seem to point at the slide (which has been most helpful. blew out a lot of brass from the striker channel yesterday).

many thanks gents.
:D

[JD Cowles]

crap, i meant ejector not extractor. will re-clean, re-lube, and change out the recoil spring assembly. wish me luck...

[jocko]

hmmm...haven't cleaned under the extractor, gonna do that tonight thanks for the idea. this is why i love this forum.

jocko, i was using shooters choice from the get go. seemed to really like it so i switched back for sure. it's a beveled slide (ian asked when i called kahr to be sure to send the correct spring/assembly). it's an IC6xxx so relatively new (late 10 early 11 right?).

since i have your attention, either of you care to share how you clean the receiver/frame etc? i usually just hit it with a toothbrush and some gunzilla (light) to get the visible gunk and old grease off. should i blast it out with gunscrubber or some such? all the cleaning instructions seem to point at the slide (which has been most helpful. blew out a lot of brass from the striker channel yesterday).

many thanks gents.
:D


this. go to the kahr tech section and hit on the propper pepping of ur new kahr, it will tellyou how to clean that upper slide without taking it all apart.

I tend to think you really meantextractor, and not ejector. The ejector jusat sits there doing nadda until the bang thing happens and then it sitll sits there doing nothing and the slide retracts and the casing is hit against the ejector. Nothing torealy clean there, but the extractoris another thing, It does move and u can cleanit without dissasembly to, just spray right behind that extractor and fluids will come out the back. and then just a drop of oil behind the extractor andit willfind its way intothe extrractor channel. I doubt if that is the issue either but look over the extractor to see if there are some ruff areas. If so some 600+ grip sand paper will smooth those areas out without any real metal being removed. That extractor material is one tuff s.o.b. . the lopwer sectrion, I also just spray cleanit, I never take it down, there is no need to do that as every part can be spray cleaned from the top witht he slide ofdf and then a tad bit of oil on the trigger spring and adrop on the side of the cocking cam and u should be good to go....None of that will cause ur issues from any result of a dirty lower frame either. I realize the feed ramp is very smooth looking but if you got any fine 600+ grit paper give it a good polishing and also inside the chamber. again ur not gonna take off any metal.

[Jeff00042]

JD Cowles: Keep us posted. The new recoil assembly may resolve your problem.

[deadhead1971]

my 2 cents...check the plastic magazine follower to maKE sure it is not cracked, if you have shot any +P, the recoil spring would need changing.

[CJB]

clean the gun and scrub under the extractor.

I don't know why you wouldn't want to focus there, as you stated it seem to be getting hung up on the extractor.

+1

Just took a look at the one on my PM45... couldn't budge it. Had to let it soak a little, then work it, blow it out. Moving once again. This could have been part of my weak hand 3point jams.

[Jim K]

FTF @ aprox 1000 rounds and not before kinda makes the recoil spring suspect. No telling when you're doing transcontinental troubleshooting but I think you should try the recoil spring 1st.
You can do a crude check of the extractor by actuating it with a brass car key. Remove the slide from the frame and try to slip a cartridge uder the extractor. It should slip under the "claw" easily. The extractor should have enough tension to hold a cartridge against gravity. The extractor spring and pin could possibly be fouled and binding, not likely but maybe you can remove the pin & spring, clean & lube the extractor pin bore.
While you have the barrel out, try slipping a new cartridge into the chamber to see if there is some hang-up there. Oversize AMMO? Dirty chamber?
Magazines are sometimes neglected. Inspect them as per previous posts. Disassemble, clean & check the spring installation.

Good Luck, Jim K

[JD Cowles]

So I tried to replace the (potentially shot) recoil spring assembly this morning for a range trip tonight and the damn guide rod was 1/4" shorter than the original and obviously the wrong one. Called Kahr again, spoke with Jay this time and he assures me the correct one is in the mail.

Another week with a questionable $600 firearm. I may see if the spring itself will fit the original guide rod as it appears to be the same length/# of coils. Not sure what my next step is if this doesn't work out. My G19 has thousands of rounds through it with zero issues. I'm thinking a G26 might have been a better choice (though less versatile/concealable) at this point.:mad:

[jocko]

if the guide rod is shorter then they sent you the old style blunt nose PM9 assembly which if u coulnt the outter coils, there should be 13. On your beveled PM9 slide the assembly you hav ein there shouldhaver 15 coils. If there is anythbng other than that, then both are wrong and being u got a 1000 good rounds ou tof it at first,Ihave no doubtr you have the correct guide rod assembly in. they just sent u the wrong one, Now that outter spring will go on but it willnot be correct, as basically it will be to short. wait until you get the new one, and them post the old new one on thie forum for sale at half theprice and it will be gone in a jiffy. not much good to you. If kahr can get things messed up. I just wonder sometimes how easy it is for the owners to do the same.

[JD Cowles]

yeah, i figured i was hosed, thanks jocko. i've not had a pistol long enough or put enough rounds through to wear anything out (except the Glock) so this is all new to me. 1000 rounds seemed kinda quick for a recoil spring. I was really fired up on this one and the last few weeks have really ripped my confidence in it to the point of wanting to replace it. I am impatient but in matters like this I don't think one should have any reservations or regrets. having to wait another week to get the right replacement part kinda pissed me off (again, impatient). my feeling is if this doesn't mend my issues it's going back to Kahr in a hurry. i'll be damned if i could find another that i'd like as much as this PM9 though...

[jocko]

patience is golden, for me anyhow, in my earlier years I wanted things done yesterday, today I am content to let things play out. Lifer ald older age does that to one. Kahr will get you right, ask yourself, if u have ever screwed up in your life????

[JD Cowles]

got the correct recoil spring assembly in the mail this am. going to slap it in tonight, re-lube and shoot the snot out of it at 0800 Sat am. hope to put all these malfunctions behind me and fall back in love with her.

Kahr has been responsive i have to say, got the correct part in just 5 business days. i'll post my results Sat afternoon.

[JD Cowles]

Think the recoil spring is shot? Hint: the new one is on top.

[MW surveyor]

Unless my eyes are bad this morning.....count the coils on the outer spring. Are they the same number?

[JD Cowles]

I counted them several times. The original has 15 and the one Kahr sent had about 16. Ian mentioned that I might have to *** off a 1/4 turn until it fit correctly. Sure enough, when i first installed it the slide wouldn't lock back. i nipped off a 1/4 turn and bingo, back in business. I was astounded to be honest at how compressed that spring is. Like I said i counted a few times and the farther out you get as you count you can see how shot the original is.

[jocko]

i guess it is hoiw we count half coils to. Ihave never heard of a kahr spring with 16 coils. Every recoil spring will take a predesigned set. Shorter certainly does notmean worn out.

[MW surveyor]

You gotta admit, that's one heck of a set!

[JD Cowles]

Counting coils is indeed an interesting task, believe me i spent some time doing it last night. the attached pic is tough but if you really try you should be able to see what i'm talking about. i thought it was fishy that i'd have to any sort of 'trimming' to a factory replacement spring. frankly it makes me wonder about their QA/QC practices. i'm just going on advice from Ian at Kahr. at first it looked like the coils were just packed in around the front of the slide. sure enough when i tried to lock it back it wouldn't. freaked out thinking i'd screwed up somehow. put the old spring back in, slide locked no sweat. reinstalled the new one, same thing, wouldn't lock. then remembered Ian saying i 'might have to trim the new spring 1/4 turn at a time until it fit'. so i did, and the slide locked back just fine after one 1/4 turn trimming.

as far as compression/wear i can't buy that the original spring hasn't seen better days. the main problem is/was failure to return to battery and i am sure as **** not limp wristing this gun. if this doesn't solve my problems Kahr is going to get that gun in a hurry with instructions to keep it until THEY would be comfortable trusting their life with it.

[JD Cowles]

Finally got to the range with a new recoil spring assembly. Put about 75 rounds of WWB through her and had two cases where the slide locked back. I took my time so as not to change grip/etc and realized that my pinky is levering the mag up and pushing the next round into/engaging the slide lock lever. There is a bit of play in the magazines that allows for such a thing to occur it appears. If I made sure not to grip the thing to death, there were no problems. Ran about 35 rounds of my preferred PD ammo (Hornady Critical Def in 115gr) with no problems whatsoever.

[OldLincoln]

I've wondered about putting a fat "O-Ring" around the bottom of the mag to keep it down. Should give enough to latch okay but stop the pushing up we read about.

[JD Cowles]

Now you're talkin! I have a box of assorted o-rings for various faucet repairs and bet one of them would be perfect. Glad somebody's thinking this morning (it ain't me). I'll give it a try and report back.

JD

[dirksterg30]

Finally got to the range with a new recoil spring assembly. Put about 75 rounds of WWB through her and had two cases where the slide locked back. I took my time so as not to change grip/etc and realized that my pinky is levering the mag up and pushing the next round into/engaging the slide lock lever. There is a bit of play in the magazines that allows for such a thing to occur it appears. If I made sure not to grip the thing to death, there were no problems. Ran about 35 rounds of my preferred PD ammo (Hornady Critical Def in 115gr) with no problems whatsoever.

If I'm understanding you, the bullet is hitting the slidestop and forcing it up? You might have an out-of-spec slidestop: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6066

[JD Cowles]

I think I have an out of spec pinky. This is a new problem after about 1K rounds. For some reason I started clamping down with my pinky on the mag plate and couple that with the Kahr tendency to have the next round creep forward and you get a slide lock.

[jocko]

I think I have an out of spec pinky. This is a new problem after about 1K rounds. For some reason I started clamping down with my pinky on the mag plate and couple that with the Kahr tendency to have the next round creep forward and you get a slide lock.

that pinky, cut the damn thing off:7:

Must this foorum explain everything in detail!!!!!

[JD Cowles]

Listen here jocko, if i follow your (albeit wise) advise, how in the hell am i supposed to pick my nose? Or ears? Or arse? Should I contact Kahr customer service?

:001_tt2:

[jocko]

if ur getting alot of slide lock and I mean alot, , then I would get a new slide stop spring and replace it along with a new set of recoil springs. i have a hard time believing the flush fit magazines that u can be the cause of it. U should be able to trouble shoot this pretty easy.

I onlyh meant ONE PINKY TO. so you stillhave ne left to do that other stuff with.

[gb6491]

My CW45 would lock back prematurely. What fixed it was tightening the slide stop spring screw enough to make the spring harder to move (tightening to, or nearly to, the point that it acts as two separate springs). NOTE: I was careful not to over tighten the screw and damage the frame. As the spring is now harder to move, the slide stop lever pin is more difficult to unseat; likewise, the lever requires more force to move it, making premature slide lock less likely to happen. I have not had a slide stop issue since doing this.

Here's a WAG: As it doesn't read like you had this problem before the replacing recoil springs, I wonder if the new springs cause any additional friction between the slide stop pin and barrel lug? Who knows, it might not hurt to grease the lug up a little more than usual.

BTW, I think Jocko's suggestion about a new slide stop spring a good one. That little spring is a good candidate for having a spare on hand.

Regards,
Greg