Primer "smear"...

[LSP972]

In another (now locked) thread, reference was made to this. The correct/technical term is "drag mark", as referred to by certified firearms examiners.

Anyway, the point is this... one poster was concerned about it, stating that it is not "normal". It most certainly IS normal, and in fact is so prevalent that it is used as a reference point on the NIBIN/BrassTrax system for tracking cartridge cases used in crimes.

Of the several dozen evidence guns I fire every week (most of which are handguns), most of those with the Browning system display a drag mark of varying size. It all depends on how that particular piece is fitted, the ammunition, etc. I have HKs- which are one of the THE best fitted production guns out there- which do it, and some that don't. One of my HK45 Compacts does it (albeit very faintly) with ball/duty ammunition, but not with my reduced practice reload.

Primer smear, drag mark, whatever you want to call it, is most assuredly not an abnormal occurrence. That's why most modern pistols have the "grunge hole" just aft of the breech face.

.

[Bawanna]

Good stuff LSP. I was aware it was totally normal in Kahrs but not so much in other varieties.

Thanks for enlightening us.

[MW surveyor]

Thanks again LSP, this was my point exactly in the other thread.

But, but, but my revolver doesn't do it! LOL

[jocko]

agree, ur really preacin to the choir here. We never did consider it an issue. Or my Glock would have went back a long time ago

[Tilos]

I'll defer to the experts on this one, since it's just a matter of terminology...:rolleyes:
just scentin'
Tilos

[Bawanna]

I'm having a hard time remembering that clearly but thru the fog I think I recall that the OP requested the thread be closed so I followed orders.

As I recall it wasn't a technical misunderstanding but issues of civility of which most posters did not participate including my good pal tilos.

At least that's the thread I think I'm remembering, if I'm wrong somebody set me straight.

[jocko]

yup ur right u closed THAT thread!!

[mr surveyor]

no doubt in the world that primer smear or drag mark (choose your term) is completely normal in many, many firearms. The addition of the word "gouging" takes it to a different level though, in my non-professional opinion. When I saw the word gouging used, it immediately made me think of an abnormally deep strike which would certainly take more foreign material off the primer face to be introduced into the striker channel.

I'm glad this thread was started since I considered starting a new discussion concerning the use of certain terminology when problems are described. I think a lot of legitimate concerns are washed under the rug when the OP is told everything is perfectly normal as per "the manual". It may be a good idea to read every word in a post, and question those words that don't seem to fit with the normal "read the manual" response.

Now I need to go read the end of the other thread to find out what I missed.


surv

[Bawanna]

Absolutely agreed Mr. Surveyor. A misread or missed word or incorrect terminology can change the course of a issue immensely.

A good portion of the armorer classes I attended years ago was basically interogating the end use to make sure we understand what the issue really is.
Failure to Feed versus failure to eject, extractor versus ejector, on and on.

This is a perfect example in that the OP used the word gouge which I read over too lightly ( as perhaps most of us did) assuming he really meant smear or wipe, insert whatever word fits.

By making that assumption we take for granted that he just used the wrong word, he may have done exactly that. We never did determine that for sure.

Anyhow your right we need to read carefully, take less for granted and remember that new owners might be subtituting words that might twist things around some.

[jocko]

photos always help when trying to indicate a "issue" I seen that word but I didn't take it for what it was. If u think about it, if that primer swipe starts when the firing pin hits the primer and now the barrel is caming downward and starting to cause this swiping action but finally clears enough to stop doing it, where it ends at to me would be some soft primer just being kinda rolled to a stop, which might to some indicate a gouge.. Just my thoughts.

[Paladin]

Since I started "that other thread", I'm going to dive in here and give everyone another shot at me.

I would ask that people reread my original post. I did NOT question or raise a concern about the idea of firing pin drag, or whatever. Really don't care what the "official" name is. That was NOT the intent of my post.

The concern I raised was that the firing pin was dragging deeply enough to remove metal and force it through the firing pin hole and into the striker channel. I own a Springfield XD, as does my son and my brother-in-law. None of these guns display this behavior. I own a Glock. This does not happen. A good friend owns a S&W M&P. This does not happen. (Warning...Geezer Speak imminent) I have owned or worked on a large variety of handguns. Until I bought my CW9, I have never encountered significant metal shavings in the striker/firing pin channel of any gun. Normal? You tell me.

Oh, and before someone tells me to R.T.F.M. I'm afraid the manual doesn't say anything about metal shavings in the striker channel.

OK. I've had my say. Don't worry. I won't ask them to lock this thread. I won't be around long enough.

[Tilos]

At the risk of sawing sawdust...
Not to cause any hardship for anyone, I was not fanning the flames or piling on, just merely stated my feelings about certain types of posts and my experience with the subject in the discussion.
Perhaps my timing wasn't the best as a lot of "sorries" had been past out, apologies made and accepted, etc.
This is not the first time I've mentioned my feelings about such posts, and don't recall my feelings being a problem for anyone.
I won't be sawing sawdust here either.

This forum has some unique features I find very helpful.
You can select members whose posts you wish to ignore...and like magic, it happens.

just sayin'
Tilos

[jocko]

ur so right tilos, no apology needed on my part. I am not suyre that anyone was flamming palaidin with the new thread, in as much as just trying to get a betterhandle on the word gouging in relation to kahrs. I just don't try to compare what my kahr doe sto a glock, sig or any other gun. As someone stated earlier, that "grudge/crude hole oh the bottom ofmost slides is there for a reason.

Again phtos always is worth a 1000 words.

[Tilos]

mr surveyor:
Easy now, lets not get too technical, remember when I tried to quantify trigger feel.
Do you remember me suggesting the use of a trigger gage and a method to measure trigger travel using a pencil and paper?
Back in the "elite" trigger myth/hoax period with so many threads about how this one or that one felt "different".
We lost members over that one.
Or was it the one about Big Dots...I forget.
Tilos

[OldLincoln]

Wow, must be Spring around here! You can hear the bull elks blowing and the racks knocking. This was such a sleepy peaceful place when snow was 4' deep or rain pouring by the foot. Now one would think it's that place in "Justified". Isn't it about time to just have a beer and mellow out?

[mr surveyor]

Paladin

You may not have noticed, but in the other thread I was taking your side on the issue. I would like for you to stick around and help answer the questions you've raised.

surv

[Bawanna]

Wow, must be Spring around here! You can hear the bull elks blowing and the racks knocking. This was such a sleepy peaceful place when snow was 4' deep or rain pouring by the foot. Now one would think it's that place in "Justified". Isn't it about time to just have a beer and mellow out?

I generally rarely imbibe of the devils kool aid but I'll drink to this one.

[LSP972]

Well, Paladin, it certainly was not my intention to light you up in a personal manner. However, you DID state that "primer smear" was... "Most certainly NOT normal for semi-auto pistols." I see drag marks, on a smorgasboard of brass fired from semi-autos, almost every day.

Of course, the paragraph above your statement refers to brass shavings in the firing pin channel. So, if that is what you were referring to as not normal, then I missed it.

I'll agree, a surfeit of brass shavings in the firing pin channel is indeed not normal.

.

[Tilos]

jocko:
+1 on pics
Bman:
At the right moment, will you go Rodney King on us?
just scentin'
Tilos

[Bawanna]

jocko:
+1 on pics
Bman:
At the right moment, will you go Rodney King on us?
just scentin'
Tilos

I don't know? How do I go Rodney King? Darn, I'm just drawing a blank on this one. He hang out with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and them other money basket carrying evangethiefs?

No, he got beat up didn't he? I'll be back, I gotta go do some research.
I feel so stupid some days.

[mr surveyor]

Well, Paladin, it certainly was not my intention to light you up in a personal manner. However, you DID state that "primer smear" was... "Most certainly NOT normal for semi-auto pistols." I see drag marks, on a smorgasboard of brass fired from semi-autos, almost every day.

Of course, the paragraph above your statement refers to brass shavings in the firing pin channel. So, if that is what you were referring to as not normal, then I missed it.

I'll agree, a surfeit of brass shavings in the firing pin channel is indeed not normal.

.


then, would you agree that a slightly out of spec striker could cause excessive gouging, thus resulting in an unnatural amount of shavings collecting in the striker channel?

[Bawanna]

Ok, I'm back, I had the right dude. Got beat up by a bunch of LA officers.

No man, can't do that for ya. I abhor violence of all magnitudes lessen of course its unquestionably called for which sometimes don't take much.

Give peace a chance unless your a extreme terrorist mo fo then expect me to unleash hell.

[Tilos]

Ouch...let go of my chain.
He only made one audible statement that I remember.
Tilos

[lostagain]

Okay.. Help me out here. I am a new shooter and CW9 owner, about 2 months. Before finding this site and the lube and prep info I had cleaned and oiled my gun before shooting. I did have a few issues, fail to feed and and fail to fire. After aquiring spray cleaner and blasting into the famed clean out hole in the slide I did have flakes come from the striker channel. As odd as it may seem I was happy to see them since I thought they explained the fail to fire issue. I think I have put at least another 400 - 500 rounds through since with no other issues. Fail to feed was goo in the magazines.

Bottom line is the flakes I saw were to large (maybe 1/16 inch) to go through the fireing pin hole. How else would they get there apart from the the pin hole or left form manufacture? I thought I had read most everything on the CW9 and didn't remember seeing this issue before.

[Tilos]

Lostagain:
Maybe that clean-out hole doubles as a "flakes-in hole":eek:.

Bman, sorry for what I just typed right there.
:):):D:):)
just sayin'
Tilos

[MW surveyor]

"Can't we all just get along?" :19:


Paladin - I would like to restate my earlier post in the one that got locked.

Stay, you have things to contribute!

[Tilos]

MW:
Stop it:puke:

Tilos

[mr surveyor]

I guess I'm just not following what's being discussed here.:confused:

[Tilos]

It's the on going apologies that are getting old for me.
But that's just me.
Tilos

[MW surveyor]

tilos

OK, no more :o

[LSP972]

then, would you agree that a slightly out of spec striker could cause excessive gouging, thus resulting in an unnatural amount of shavings collecting in the striker channel?

I dunno if I would use the term "gouging"... but, if the striker or firing pin is rough and removes bits & pieces of the primer cup as the case is dropping while still in contact with said striker/firing pin, and these bits & pieces are drawn and/or blown back into the channel, then yes.

I think too much is made of the term "striker fired". Technically, it refers to an action that does not have a separate hammer. Junk pistols of the HiPoint/Lorcin/Davis/et. al. genre have "strikers"... which also double as the ejector.

But since there are some folks here who do not wish to be bored with technical jargon, I'll shut up...;)

.

[MW surveyor]

LSP972

I'm not bored by technical jargon! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :)

Hey, can you explain to me how the "striker" doubles as an ejector?
Inquiring minds want to know (well at least I do).

Also, be careful of what you say regarding HiPoints. HA HA HA (said in a sinester laugh)

[LSP972]

Its real simple; the striker stays forward during the extraction cycle. There is a second, shorter spring that fits around/over the main striker spring; this shorter spring keeps the striker forward just long enough to accomplish this. As the slide moves rearward, dragging the case from the chamber, the striker maintains pressure on the case and "kicks" it when the slide reaches full rearward travel.

And I'll have you know, sir, that I'm a certified HiPoint armorer. ;) Seriously. Tom (the owner/maker) loves law enforcement; in fact he changed the GRC (general rifling characteristics) of his guns to make them more easily identifiable on an individual basis.

He came down here a few years ago and conducted an "armorer school" of sorts, since we deal with so many of his guns on a weekly basis.

Bottom line is, they work; and work well. They are heavy, ungainly, and have the ergonomics of a cinder block; but they work. Certain examples can be surprisingly accurate. My former colleagues at the sheriff's office FTU have a HiPoint CF9 which they use to shame no-shooting deputies who claim "there is something wrong with my Glock".

And I have several acquaintances who use the JHP model (.45 ACP) for a truck gun. Personally, I wouldn't have a HiPoint if there were other choices; I did dip down to a Ruger P345 for MY "car gun", but I simply cannot bring myself to actually own a HiPoint.

That said... don't for a minute think that HiPoints are not serious firearms.

.

[MW surveyor]

Thanks for the input on the striker being used as the ejector. Thought it would have to be something like that.

No, I'll never doubt that HiPoints are not serious firearms. Too many out there and other than the fact they are shaped like bricks (some other guns come to mind on this) seem to have a loyal following even among "serious" firearms people.

[jocko]

lsp972: Its real simple; the striker stays forward during the extraction cycle. There is a second, shorter spring that fits around/over the main striker spring; this shorter spring keeps the striker forward just long enough to accomplish this. As the slide moves rearward, dragging the case from the chamber, the striker maintains pressure on the case and "kicks" it when the slide reaches full rearward travel.

surely ur not talking about a kahr,as there is only one spring in the striker system of a kahr. I might have missed where u might be talking about another maker and if so, , my fault. U might have beendiscussing the Hi Point and how they work. I guess it is possable the striker could still be sticking out to aid in ejection but certainly the ejector pllays 99% of that roll.

[lostagain]

I went to the range last night and picked up a handful of caseings from my CW9. On a few I did notice marking (scrapping) inside the ridge at the base. They were about the size of the flakes I had observed from the striker channel. I won't have a chance to clean my gun until late tonight or tomorrow morning and check for brass in the gun. Still curious how they would get into the channel.

[mr surveyor]

if you over lube (in my opinion any lube is too much) the striker/firing pin, any specks, flakes or other foreign matter that contacts the tip of the striker/firing pin is subject to be picked up and retracted into the striker/firing pin channel. Then when allowed to mix with excess lube, it all becomes a nasty abrasive sludge that can lead to malfunctions.

[LSP972]

I guess it is possable the striker could still be sticking out to aid in ejection but certainly the ejector pllays 99% of that roll.

Guess again.;) HiPoints and others of that genre do not HAVE ejectors. The striker fulfills that function, as described.

.

[jocko]

I was referring to kahrs, no doubt with the Hi point that is by design. sorry about that..

[LSP972]

I went to the range last night and picked up a handful of caseings from my CW9. On a few I did notice marking (scrapping) inside the ridge at the base. They were about the size of the flakes I had observed from the striker channel. I won't have a chance to clean my gun until late tonight or tomorrow morning and check for brass in the gun. Still curious how they would get into the channel.

I would estimate that one in ten of every HiPoint we see here must be detail-stripped and cleaned and/or "doctored", to get it to shoot so we can fire reference/comparison rounds.

Believe it or not, the main cause of these malfunctioning thug guns (and it is NOT confined to HiPoints or other junk pieces- some of these boys have quality gats when they run afoul of the cops) is the type of... lubrication... some of them employ. Can you say... cooking oil? Sometimes, USED cooking oil.

Honest to God, I am NOT kidding. I have been shooting and wrenching on guns professionally for most of my adult life. All that was guns of a reasonable level of quality and a reasonable level (most of the time, anyway) of maintenance. Coming to the Crime Lab and seeing these guns carried/used by the- shall we say- lesser elements of society, was quite a shock. These guys are creative beyond belief.

The first time I encountered a pistol (it was a Lorcin, IIRC) that had been lubed with cooking oil, I was aghast and mystified. Just what WAS this stuff? My compadres here all had a good laugh at my expense; in fact, knowing my background as they did, they had been waiting for just such an opportunity.

Here's the deal. The stuff actually works pretty good; for a day or so. Then it begins to congeal, and creates the most God-awful mess you can imagine. I actually found bits of chicken in one HiPoint the other day. You can only shake your head and thank the stars that this represents the best thinking of much of the criminal element in our society.

Now... the point to all of this is, I have been inside many a HiPoint, and don't recall an excess of metal shavings/etc. in the striker channel of any of them. This channel is rather large on these pistols, too, as the O.D. of the striker is about 5mm at the back, to accomodate the larger of the two striker springs (the one that facilitates the ejector function).

Additionally, the shearing action that creates drag marks (and can produce shavings, as outlined earlier in this thread) is not present in these pistols. One possible answer to your situation, lostagain, is that the breech face is extra-rough and is actually pinching bits of brass from the case heads. One of the final production steps on these guns is the application of; no kidding here; a mini-belt sander to the breech face. This leaves a unique set of stria that show up beautifully on primers and the case head under the comparison microscope, for I.D. purposes. Sometimes that thing gets into the rim support area a bit. Hey... the guns retail for $200, so what do you expect?;)

Anyway... while considered trash by most shooting cognescenti, these junk pistols can be extremely interesting, to say the least.

.

[LSP972]

I was referring to kahrs, no doubt with the Hi point that is by design. sorry about that..


No drama... this thread HAS become a bit convoluted, and I guess a lot of that is MY fault...;)

.

[lostagain]

LSP972, Thanks for the reply. I cleaned my CW9 this morning and payed close attention to the striker channel when I flushed it out with cleaner. I was surprised how much brass residue came out of the channel after abut 400 rounds. I can only describe the brass as specs, they were very small. My guess is the original flakes which were more in the glitter size from the first channel cleaning were probably left from the factory and were the cause of the few fail to fires I had. ( Haven't had any problems since ) Todays residue could have easily gone through the firing pin hole. I plan to flush at each cleaning per Jocko's encouragement from the previous posting.

[jocko]

spray clean that striker channel each time u clean the gun and you will never have ay buildup or issues.

[LSP972]

I was surprised how much brass residue came out of the channel after abut 400 rounds.

Were you shooting ammunition with nickle, or brass, primers? If nickle primers, that means the residue you found must be coming from the cartridge cases.

If that is the situation, it must be getting scraped off either during feeding, or during extraction/ejection.

Curiouser and curiouser...

.

[Tilos]

"Curiouser and curiouser..."

from way back in post #25

Lostagain:
Maybe that clean-out hole doubles as a "flakes-in hole":eek:.

just sayin'
Tilos

just scentin'
Tilos

[lostagain]

I was shooting Remington UMC with what looks like nickle primers. As I mentioned on some of the caseings there were scrapeing on a few of the ones I looked at. i would guess it's from the ejector. Much of this is new to me so your imput helps in understanding the whole process.

[jocko]

I always trhought the primer cups were copper, am I wrong in thinking that or what??

oops: googled it up. could be brass or copper.

[LSP972]

Primer cups are an alloy of several metals, which includes copper.

Some primers (Federal, CCI) have a nickle plating on the cups. Others, like Winchester, can be nickled, or retain the natural brass color of the alloy. Recent Winchester primers are somewhat of a "dirty brass" color; at least, all of the ones I have purchased in the past few years have been. I do have some Winchester SP primers that are are ten years or so old that feature nickled cups.

I have seen Remington primers "both ways", as well.

The nickle plating is an effort to resist corrosion, I suspect; although Winchester seems to have abandoned it for their pistol primers. In addition to many thousand primers bulk-packed for reloading, all the Winchester loaded handgun ammunition I have, from top-of-the-line Ranger SXT "duty" stuff down to the lowly economy WWB, has brass-colored primers.

Bottom line, I don't think it really matters (although Federal primer cups have traditionally been softer, and therefore desired by target shooters due to more uniform ignition properties). I was asking simply because if his primers are nickle-plated, then any brass-colored residue is more than likely coming from the cartridge case itself.

.

[mr surveyor]

I thought we were already talking about the possibility of the striker dragging into the cartridge brass at the edge of the primer cup

[Tilos]

I've been kind of lurking on the thread and have read a lot of what I believe to be complex answers to a simple condition.

When the slide strips a round from the mag, the next round down is scraped by the bottom of slide passing over it creating flakes/slivers of...wait for it...BRASS:rolleyes:.

YMMV,
Tilos

[LSP972]

There are many conditions/situations/combinations of same that produce brass flakes/slivers.

However, excessive brass flakes/slivers is not desirable, and THAT is what prompted this discussion; i.e., finding the cause, and how to prevent it from happening again.

Tilos, it could indeed be that simple. OTOH, by the time the top cartridge in the magazine has been pushed up and out of the magazine (exposing the next round), the slide is pretty well all the way forward. In your scenario, I would think the rim of that top cartridge is scraping against the round UNDER it. We have seen this, in many different actions; the rim of the feeding round scraping the hell out of the next round in the magazine. This is most likely to occur with rimmed cases in a box magazine; i.e., .22s, .38 Supers, etc. But it does happen with rimless rounds too.

Absent the proper high speed photography research (like S&W pioneered back in the 80s), we'll never know for sure exactly WHAT the cause is. I cleaned my P45 yesterday, after approximately 100 rounds of my practice reloads, and did not notice any shavings/flakes of any color... just the normal powder fouling. The fired cases do indeed exhibit a significant drag mark, indicating that premature un-locking is occurring. But the pistol functions fine, I'm not seeing sign of any other problems (incomplete case obturation, blow-back, etc.). So until I see something that raises a red flag, mine seems to be good to go.

There is, however, definitely something going on with some of these pistols. Whether it be manufacturing tolerance issues, quality control issues, ammunition issues, any of several dozen potential problems, I cannot say. But there's a lot going on inside these guns when they are being fired; by nature (and physics) it is a complex cycle of operation.

Sometimes the answer is simple. Many times, it is not.

.

[jocko]

again that is why that clean out hole is there. If you get that channel clean ONCE it will neverlet you down if u sprayclean through that hole and also by pulling back the striker and then sprayhing right through tghe breech/firing pin hole. I have never read of anyoine ever cleaning out that hole and having issues after that. I am ot saying either that you need to spraqy trhat hole every time you clean the gun BUT WHY NOT. It might take 10 seconds to do so. no dissaemblyh required. Not sure I wold take mygun down and clean it andnot clean the barrel. It should just be a part of your routing. Lots of things ar ehappeing when that bomb things happend and LSP972 is right, we can't see umall, and evidently it is not just kahrsw either that do it, so IMO live with it, take careof your gun properly and it will not let you down becausde opf buildup, Just not gonna happen.

[Tilos]

In addition, when the slide moves to the rear it pushes the next round in the mad down and "painting the slide gold", the amount depending on the finish on the slide.
Factory ammo has small burrs(of brass) at the case mouth that are scraped off by this slide movement.

And for Jocko, here's a pic of the paint and flecks, more visual on the blackened sides.
With pistols matches that commonly fire 800-900 rounds per day for 3 days, and no time to clean a gun until the end of the day, I don't see where this brass stuff is really an issue, but hey, that's me.
Tilos

[lostagain]

I kind of lose track of the whole process about the time it goes BANG ;). After reading all the information and seeing the difference in what came out during the two cleanings of the stricker channel I lean toward junk from the factory. The second cleaning was just specks in comparison. I'll watch mr casings a bit closer in the future.

I did have to clean out machining leftovers and touch up some burrs before I fired it the first time.

Jocko do you have a trick or simple tool to hold the striker spring back while flushing the channel? I would like to keep my fingers out of the chemicals.

Thanks all for the feedback. There is always something new to learn.

[jocko]

I wear rubber gloves, as most aqll cleaners will take the oil right out ofyour hands, if they are any cleaner at all. so no I don't. I don't spend alot of time eithert in that pulling the striker back and withthe nozzle in the clean out hole, I see only clean fluids coming out breech face and back by the striker sprihg I have only hadmy striker downone tme in over 31,000 rounds and that was to only insert the # striker spring, so I never even really took it all apart even. I reaqlly do think some make to much to ado about this build UP.I aqm convinced that allthis crude crapola comes from the factory and once cleaned as directed it willnever be an issue. I certainly havent seen or read aobut it

[LSP972]

.I aqm convinced that allthis crude crapola comes from the factory and once cleaned as directed it willnever be an issue.


And you are probably 100% correct.

.

[Tilos]

lostagain:
A piece coat hanger wire bent in the shape of an open staple will hold the striker back if it's the proper length to hook over the back end of the slide.
just sayin'
Tilos
whew, we've talked this subject death and I hope this thread will die a natural death with dignity.

[Bawanna]

A big amen to that brother.