OUTRAGED! No more Kahrs

[Squib]

A lot of you have suffered thru my disappointing CW45 with me for the last couple of months, and I appreciate your moral support and suggestions. My last post a few days ago Miserable, Rotten CW45!! was an update of my newest problem. After more than 400 shots it's still a dud.

So, taking Jocko's council to heart, I called Kahr and politely asked them to fix it. The SR gave me a return number and said "mail it in". When I asked who was paying for the mailing, he told me I pay for it. That is Kahr's policy.

Sorry Jocko, this is where I let you down. With just a hint of sarcasm in my voice I told him my policy is to put it for sale on line at a reduced price and tell folks why I'm selling it so cheaply. And, that even Taurus pays to ship their duds back. Suddenly, some funds were available to cover the shipping. I took it, but it's too late.

I seriously do not like to be jerked around. And, while what I paid for it may be chump change to Karh, it was not so to me. While I will keep my CW9 (one of the best pistols I've owned) I have cancelled my order for a CM9. I will also sell the CW45 as soon as I can insure it operates correctly.

I feel better now that I've done my rant. We now return you our normal programming.

[BuckeyeBlast]

So they DID pay for it??? Who did you talk to?

[Pa Kahr]

Very sorry to hear that Kahr jerked you around. They are not helping their reputation with that kind of service. hopefully they will fix it and you can unload it with out a problem.

[BuckeyeBlast]

They've pulled the same crap w/ me on a brand new P380. I'm normally extremely brand loyal, like to purchase lots from the same company (My little collection is over 60% Ruger. Like Taurus, they will also pay inbound shipping on new firearms if you ask. Fortunately, I've never had any problem w/ my Rugers.) I started off w/ my PM9 and loved it so much that I got the P380. Bought a Thompson and was considering a full size steel 9mm Kahr for my next purchase, but I also won't be buying any future Kahr products if I'm unable to get my P380 issue worked out. So, you're not alone. Hope the repairs work out well.

[edinero]

Will they pay to ship it back from factory?

Squib,
Thanks bro now I'm paranoid about my CW45 currently at the factory waiting to be repaired... Your rant just pissed me off after my girlfriend had to give me many b*'s to calm me back down after my new cw45 took a crap at the range during break in!

[BuckeyeBlast]

Yes, they will pay to return it from the factory to you. They just won't pay for the inbound shipping.

[edinero]

Oh ok thanks, I already got them to pickup at there cost fed ex overnight! I'm still waiting though it's been a week today they have had it.

[LLDJR]

They shipped the wrong recoil spring to me, I called them and they said keep the wrong one and they would send me a new one,,, I called them back to say that my mag follower had cracked on my PM40 and it would not lock back and they sent me a new one Free Of Charge

[Tilos]

Squib:
You tried your best and I understand the frustration.
I believed that stretching the 9mm design in both directions (380/45) would not go well.
I looked at Kahrs and their mixed reviews for years before buying one, and even then opted for a 9mm, simply because of the time in manufacture.
Tilos

[TucsonMTB]

The SR gave me a return number and said "mail it in". When I asked who was paying for the mailing, he told me I pay for it. That is Kahr's policy.
Hmm . . . let me guess. He spoke unaccented English and introduced himself as Jay, right? I wonder if Jay is trying to impress someone in Kahr management by holding down shipping costs on cases he handles?

Not long ago, I called to get my PM40 repaired having given up on home remedies after several hundred rounds of "break-in shooting", polishing, etc. I mentioned the expectation of the team on the KahrTalk forum that Kahr would cover shipping early in the conversation. When Jay agreed that the pistol should go back to Kahr, I again requested that Kahr cover shipping costs. Jay told me that picking up the cost of shipping was not Kahr policy because the FTF (Failures to Feed) that my PM40 was experiencing were NOT a warranty issue. But (in the same breath) he said he would send an email containing a pre-paid mailing label anyway. I expressed my gratitude, which was genuine.

It's really hard to know what kind of pressure Jay and Eion are facing. If controlling shipping costs is a management priority, they are probably under considerable pressure to avoid covering return costs. If shipping cost control is not a management priority and Jay is acting on his own, someone in Kahr management should explain to Jay how public relations, brand loyalty, and customer service interact.

Just my opinion, of course. :rolleyes:

[BuckeyeBlast]

It's not just Jay. Their "customer service" supervisor Joe Mayo also refuses to cover inbound shipping on defective firearms.

I've read many accounts of Jay being very friendly and understanding, standing behind his product and with his customers to cover the inbound shipping on defective firearms. Since Joe Mayo is his supervisor, maybe the pressure to make customers pay to ship their defective product back is coming from him?

[MrToad]

Wow, sorry to hear about this, Squib. :(

[apheod]

while i was thinking very hard about a k9 for my next purchase, i think this thread finally pushed me over the edge, i've seen too much crap like this posted to continue to support that company with my hard earned money.

as much as i hate to send my future business overseas, i think i'll stick with my tried and true HKs. i'm not talking so much about the shipping (which is definitely BS) as the common problems. how many HK guys have problems with their guns, even if we are occasionally gunsnobs?

the pm9 i bought was to fill a niche, for pocket carry or deep concealment. if HK had offered a similar sized weapon, i'd have paid the (admittedly exorbitant) premium. p7 and the p2000sk is about as small as they go :(

[Jeff00042]

I understand the frustration with your .380 & 45. I sold my P380 after 2 trips to Kahr & 1400 rounds. It remained unreliable. However, I have had very good experiences with 4 of their 9mm models. My PM9 & K9 Elite have been flawless. I have also had good contacts with Jay & Ian at Kahr. I feel comFortable recommending Kahr CS and their 9mm models.

[apheod]

not counting the hk4 of course... a 40 year old design, and only available in .22, .25, .32, and .380.

i want a 9 in my pocket. should also say though, that my pm9 has been flawless for ~2k rounds and i intend to keep it as long as i stays that way.

[kpm9]

kahr needs to be careful with other makers starting to enter the single stack concealed market, more and more. Sorry about you experience with the CW.

[Squib]

Good one, Tucson; it was Jay. The Forum does seem to have a lot of CW45 owners reporting problems. But the real problem seems to be a corporate issue. It's just not a good idea to sell an expensive product and then deliver a big 'ol lemon. It's even a worse idea to try to force a customer to pay for it.

Guido and Nunzi, from MY customer service department, will be busy the rest of the month stenciling tacky things about Karh on bathroom walls!:rolleyes:

[TucsonMTB]

Actually, Squib, the good news is that you "convinced" them to cover shipping and are probably now on the path to a reliable pistol.

I have all the appropriate appendages crossed that your experience will be similar to mine and that when you pistol returns, it will behave as hoped.

There's plenty of precedent to support that hope, including my PM40 that now inspires confidence by never missing a beat (so far) at least with my chosen carry ammo and cheap FMJ ammo. Life is good here in Tucson.

Please keep us posted as your drama unfolds, especially if it has a happy ending. It's really hard to type with my fingers crossed. ;)

[Tilos]

I grew up in "gun valley" and know why all the gun makers, besides Kahr and Smith that are still in business, have long since moved away.
Before Ruger moved, none of the employees that worked at Ruger's Southport plant could afford to live in Southport.
The whole area is a hollow shell of what was once the gun manufacturing center of the world.
Remember Ma has State Gov. health care along with all the other gov'ment stuff that sucks the life out of any business, along with a high cost of living, etc.
I've worked in places that push the efficiency/worker output, pinching pennies to try and cover the added cost of doing bussiness there.
Only to frustrate the workers and usually loose the battle in the end.

Tilos

[Dietrich]

I`ve got a S&W that was out of time.I took it back to the LGS I bought it from and they told me,No Problem.S&W pays for the whole shebang.I left the gun with the dealer,they shipped it back to S&W and called me a few weeks later when it was shipped back to them.I was totally impressed by that type of customer service and it has made me a repeat customer.Whoever it is at Kahr that has decided it is better to jerk the customer around obviously has his [or her] head up his [or her] behind.I`ve always believed if you take care of your customers they,by their words,will take care of you.If I were you,I`d feel the same way you do.

[DinoCrayon]

I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat. At the end of the day Kahr may get a worse reputation than Taurus.

[Longitude Zero]

Dietrich I have seen the same customer service from S&W. Excellent company. Kahr should probably take a lesson since it won't take very many more of these incidents when it starts to affect their bottom line...sales.

[Thunder71]

I would have gone through the local gun shop that I bought mine from, I know they'd take care of it for me - did you try that method?

Says this right on their site:


Confirm the firearm is unloaded before shipping.
Contact Kahr Arms Technical Support Department to receive a Return Authorization number before shipping a firearm to the factory. You can do this by online (RA request form) or by calling 508-795-3919. Ship handguns prepaid via UPS or Fed Ex overnight. Federal law prohibits anyone without a Federal Firearms License from shipping a handgun by mail. Please check for any additional state or local regulations. With your return, enclose a letter that references your Return Authorization number and includes: name; address; phone number; and firearm model and serial number. The letter should describe, in detail, the problem being experienced or work to be done.

I had a similar experience with a Ruger LCP, granted they sent a prepaid shipping label without me even asking for one... My point is, they will make the gun right. They are not the only company by a long shot who does not pay for shipping when you send an item in for repairs.

[Bawanna]

I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat. At the end of the day Kahr may get a worse reputation than Taurus.

Not gonna happen. Absolutely aint' gonna happen. Did I say it ain't gonna happen.

[Cornel]

Sorry to hear about your CW45 problems. I took mine back to the LGS so they could send it back to Kahr, that was last Thursday and my LGS called me this past Monday to let me know that my CW45 was back. When I ask them what Kahr did to it, they told me that they test my gun and found no issues. No wonder I had my gun back so quick!!!

To that I asked if Kahr sent a note with comments or remarks with the gun and they told me 'no.'

I don't know what to think, but I'm going to shoot it some more and see what's next. I can only hope that the problems will be gone, we'll see next time I go to the range.

[jocko]

take another shooter with you , if both of you can duplicate the same issues, then assume they didn't fix it. If you have been folling this forum the last week or so. PaiN had a cw45 that he said was a posa, HE BOUGHT ITUSED BUT AFTER TAKING IT BACK TOTHE DEALER and the dealer and the smitty and one other going out to the range, they had zero isses, even filmedit. After a through cleaning and relubing PaiN hyas had the same results. It can happen, one just has to start somewhere when issues arise and start to eliminate the possables. I certainly would think that kahr would not send back a gun that was malfunctioning, so maybe consider that a plus.

[ORSalesRep]

A lot of you have suffered thru my disappointing CW45 with me for the last couple of months, and I appreciate your moral support and suggestions. My last post a few days ago Miserable, Rotten CW45!! was an update of my newest problem. After more than 400 shots it's still a dud.

So, taking Jocko's council to heart, I called Kahr and politely asked them to fix it. The SR gave me a return number and said "mail it in". When I asked who was paying for the mailing, he told me I pay for it. That is Kahr's policy.

Sorry Jocko, this is where I let you down. With just a hint of sarcasm in my voice I told him my policy is to put it for sale on line at a reduced price and tell folks why I'm selling it so cheaply. And, that even Taurus pays to ship their duds back. Suddenly, some funds were available to cover the shipping. I took it, but it's too late.

I seriously do not like to be jerked around. And, while what I paid for it may be chump change to Karh, it was not so to me. While I will keep my CW9 (one of the best pistols I've owned) I have cancelled my order for a CM9. I will also sell the CW45 as soon as I can insure it operates correctly.

I feel better now that I've done my rant. We now return you our normal programming.

I feel for you. It sucks to purchase something new only to be disappointed. That said, I think perhaps a lot of you are being unfair to Kahr. It does not seem to me that the OP was "jerked around," although this is the first thread covering the history that I have read, so I may very well be wrong. In this thread however, it seems that the event which makes the OP feel "jerked around" was that they didn't agree to pay for shipping immediately. I have to say that in this economy with every single company making cuts in order to simply survive, I can very easily understand why they did not initially agree to cover all costs. To their credit though, they did agree to pick up the shipping without much fight, as soon as they were called out ONE time on the issue. Today, many businesses will exercise the exact same tactic in order to cut expenditures, because they are playing the odds that many will not question them and therefore they will not have to pay. It is the tactic that even insurance companies have employed for decades....refuse a claim one or more times and hope that the denial gets the consumer to pay. This is the Corporate America that our Government has created and sadly it will get much worse as businesses try to stay alive. Ultimately the comsumer is going to suffer as businesses go under, creating fewer choices and the companies which survive put measures in place to protect their survival at the cost of the consumer's rights.

[TucsonMTB]

This is the Corporate America that our Government has created and sadly it will get much worse as businesses try to stay alive. Ultimately the consumer is going to suffer as businesses go under, creating fewer choices and the companies which survive put measures in place to protect their survival at the cost of the consumer's rights.
Uhm, yeah, just blame it on the Government when people act like jerks, sure, makes sense . . . NOT!

People who act like jerks need to take responsibility for their own actions. This blame it on the other guy cr@p just doesn't cut it.

Just my opinion, of course. And, you know what they say about opinions . . . everyone has one. :D

[Willieboy]

Seems to me if Kahr doesn't want to pay for shipping of defective guns back to them, all they have to do is get their act together and improve, to a very great extent, their quality control.

[Kenjs2]

My 380 went back for the second time yesterday. I've got 566 rounds through it and still not right. First trip they paid for with a little hesitation, second trip they offered before I asked.
When I got it back the first time (had it back in 7 days) there was no improvement at all even though they replaced the recoil spring and extractor and polished the feed ramp and slide stop. How it past test firing I have no idea. After getting it back I had 3 FTE out of the first 25 rounds and 2 FTE and 2 slide locks out of the next 50 (different brand).
I'm going to be patient a while longer. Why? Because out af all the 380's I've looked at, IMHO, this is still the best one going and one that is right IS AN AWESOME LITTLE GUN ! Man do I like it! It's accurate, it conceals better than all my guns (maybe with the exception of my LCR 38) and its a gun, not a piece of tin like my grandson's toys. I can't wait to see how it comes back this time.

I'm just saying...

[HadEmAll]

My 380 went back for the second time yesterday. I've got 566 rounds through it and still not right. First trip they paid for with a little hesitation, second trip they offered before I asked.
When I got it back the first time (had it back in 7 days) there was no improvement at all even though they replaced the recoil spring and extractor and polished the feed ramp and slide stop. How it past test firing I have no idea. After getting it back I had 3 FTE out of the first 25 rounds and 2 FTE and 2 slide locks out of the next 50 (different brand).
I'm going to be patient a while longer. Why? Because out af all the 380's I've looked at, IMHO, this is still the best one going and one that is right IS AN AWESOME LITTLE GUN ! Man do I like it! It's accurate, it conceals better than all my guns (maybe with the exception of my LCR 38) and its a gun, not a piece of tin like my grandson's toys. I can't wait to see how it comes back this time.

I'm just saying...

As another member of the P380 2nd time club, wishing you the best. I've sworn to ditch it a few times, but damn it, it has such potential. Good luck.

A suggestion. If you can afford it, get a LCP also. It'll shoot up all the ammo you're stuck with that the P380 can't handle, and give you time to find the stuff the P380 will handle. Then you can shoot the P380 with only the stuff it can handle, and you can call it reliable. That's my plan, and I'm sticking with it.

I've come to the conclusion that the P380 needs stout loads, and you're going to be confined to just a few. The LCP with it's more relaxed recoil springs can shoot the milder JHPs and the WWB, S&B, and other FMJ that the P380 just can't seem to get more than a few inches from the gun.

[copterdrvr]

If I buy something brand-friggin'-new and I paid alot of money for it and it DOES'NT WORK, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay out of MY pocket to send it back to the people that didn't make it work IN THE FIRST PLACE.

My CW40 didn't work out of the box and when I called Kahr they were very nice. I wasn't sure how things were going to go but when I mentioned that I owned numerous Kahrs the tech said something to the effect that I must be familiar with how Kahrs operate and he sent me a pre-paid without even asking. My problem was trigger related.

Funny thing is he couldn't get the gun to duplicate my problem so he called me and we talked about my "symptoms" some more. He said the only thing that could possibly cause my problem would be trigger-bar related so he went ahead and changed the parts. This all happened within 7 days.

The CW40 hasn't missed a beat since and I'm very happy. I will say however that if they made me pay the shipping on a gun that failed on the first mag through it I would make it my lifes work to tell everyone about my experience.

Just sayin'

[Kenjs2]

A suggestion. If you can afford it, get a LCP also. It'll shoot up all the ammo you're stuck with that the P380 can't handle, and give you time to find the stuff the P380 will handle. Then you can shoot the P380 with only the stuff it can handle, and you can call it reliable. That's my plan, and I'm sticking with it.


My wife has a LCP and boy does she give me down the road, her's has never missed a beat. Short of her taking 6 stitches for having her thumb in the wrong place.
So you're thinking it's an ammo issue? I can live with that, I like your plan. What ammo do you (or others) use? Both for range practice and self defense.
For the range I've used Winchester, American Eagle, Remington, Speer Lawman and RWS-USA. Remington is the only one of these that I have not had a problem with. Although I've only shot 1 box of these.
For self defense I tried Winchester PDX1 but I get a lot of rounds that nose dive, into the feed ramp, when trying to chamber a round. I haven't actually shot alot of this so I can't say how it shoots.

[HadEmAll]

So that I don't hijack this thread, I'll just say I and others have posted P380 ammo likes/dislikes over in the ammo forum. Respond to one of my posts there, and I'll tell you what little I know so far about my P380's likes.

Good luck.

[PCollen]

kahr needs to be careful with other makers starting to enter the single stack concealed market, more and more. Sorry about you experience with the CW.

I'm thinking of trying the Taurus PT709 Slim. I handled one today and priced it out at about $150 less than the CW9. I happen to like the thumb safety on this gun, and the Glock-like trigger, too. Taurus CS is known to be slow, but I live in Central FL, and my daughter in Miami, so I could go down for a visit and drop it off if necessary. For that matter, Kel-tec is right on my way to/from work each day..maybe I should get a P-11 or a PF-9, and I could get warranty work if necessary while I wait.

[jocko]

If I buy something brand-friggin'-new and I paid alot of money for it and it DOES'NT WORK, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay out of MY pocket to send it back to the people that didn't make it work IN THE FIRST PLACE.

My CW40 didn't work out of the box and when I called Kahr they were very nice. I wasn't sure how things were going to go but when I mentioned that I owned numerous Kahrs the tech said something to the effect that I must be familiar with how Kahrs operate and he sent me a pre-paid without even asking. My problem was trigger related.

Funny thing is he couldn't get the gun to duplicate my problem so he called me and we talked about my "symptoms" some more. He said the only thing that could possibly cause my problem would be trigger-bar related so he went ahead and changed the parts. This all happened within 7 days.

The CW40 hasn't missed a beat since and I'm very happy. I will say however that if they made me pay the shipping on a gun that failed on the first mag through it I would make it my lifes work to tell everyone about my experience.

Just sayin'

an out os spec trigger bar can cause alot of issues. Not sure what swrere but it u were elight strikes, it was trigger bar related. glad kahr took care of you.