alert

[jocko]

I have been told by a very close souce to crimson trace products that they are indeed having fitting problems with their unit on the polymer kahrs, We have seen gaps when installed, off center peaces that should match etc. They are now aware of this issue and they are working fevorishly on a correction. but have told my sourxce that we are looking at at least 30 days before the correct unit is now available.
So, if u desire to buy one of these right now you are traveling at your own risk with the propper fit on your kahr. It is not the gun but the crimson trace unit.

Not tot ell anyone what to do, but before I would buy one, I would chekck with CTC to verify that the unit you are buying is the redesigned unit to pit properly and snugly on the kahrs.

[Cornel]

Oh wow!!

Very important info!!!

Thanks a lot, just when I was considering getting one due to their rebate offer!!

[jocko]

wehave had numerous photos onh this site even of the ct two halves not mating up right and there fore when on the kahrs, it even loosk outta whack. At this time they have not got a redesigned replacement to sendto those who have the outta whack ones, but they will and they will take care of all who have this issue.s I think
Beardog on this fourm has some phtos if he canpost them on this site for allto see what to look for.

[wongman1]

Damn! I just bought one for my new p380 im picking up on Monday. Got it for $136(not including rebate) at manventure.com.... picked up some 300 rounds of WWB also.

Im new to Kahr and this forum. Ive read a bunch here.. learned a lot.. but also getting a little worried too...

The P380 is my second firearm. It sounds like it maybe hard to top my G19.

[jocko]

not sure on the P:380 if that is an issue. Is it the same model and size and the PM9 models ???

[wongman1]

Im glad now you mention that it maybe model specific and not for ALL "polymer Kahrs". Had me crappin in my pants almost...

Id have to assume your original post was referring to the PM9, as you tag line states...

lg-433 for the p380 - lg-437 for the pm9... no dimensions listed on the website...

Looking at the P380 forum, it had several posts of good fitting CT lasers and general overall good reviews of it.

[jocko]

well not really the pm9 and all the big kahrs take the same ct, model lg437, that is the uit with issues. not the P380.

[TheTman]

I'm not real happy with the fit on my CW45, but it seems solid and stays sighted in. Just have some gaps I don't like on the sides.

[BEARDOG]

Hey guys, I just saw Jocko's alert post about the CTC LG-437.
This "GAP" problem is a ongoing issue that has been discussed here since late Feb.
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=5715

I have a replacement laser in route, but have little faith it will fit much better. I waited till May to give CTC time to fix this issue, which I was told they did. But I believe the C.S. girl just told me what I wanted to hear. I will post when my new laser arrives and let you know how it fits.
Before I say anymore I want to see how my new one works, stay tuned...

Pic of mine.
http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae70/BeardogV1/P423002533.jpg

[Ljutic]

Damn! I just bought one for my new p380 im picking up on Monday. Got it for $136(not including rebate) at manventure.com.... picked up some 300 rounds of WWB also.

Im new to Kahr and this forum. Ive read a bunch here.. learned a lot.. but also getting a little worried too...

The P380 is my second firearm. It sounds like it maybe hard to top my G19.

My CTC fit perfectly on the P380. You should be fine with yours, but do check just in case.

[Ljutic]

Hey guys, I just saw Jocko's alert post about the CTC LG-437.
This "GAP" problem is a ongoing issue that has been discussed here since late Feb.
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=5715

I have a replacement laser in route, but have little faith it will fit much better. I waited till May to give CTC time to fix this issue, which I was told they did. But I believe the C.S. girl just told me what I wanted to hear. I will post when my new laser arrives and let you know how it fits.
Before I say anymore I want to see how my new one works, stay tuned...

Pic of mine.


My 437 on my PM9 looks very similar. Big gap on one side and smaller gap on the other. Fortunately, it's been working well so the holding power must be around the trigger guard and not where the laser mates with forward frame. It would be nice if it was a tighter fit. Please let us know how you make out with your new laserguard.

[gagnejs8]

Good to hear someone admits somethign down there. I have been calling and sending them pictures for a while. I'm on my 3rd different LG-437 for my PM9. I'm close, but still not right. It holds zero like a champ tho!

[72guy]

Just intalled my LG437. Similar fit problem like BEARDOG but not as bad.

gagnejs8,
"I'm close, but still not right."

I think this is where I'm at. The fit is flush on the one side but a very ( very ) slight gap on the other. Slight enough gap that I'm asking myself if I'm being too picky. On the other hand, hey, the thing should fit without one thinking. Well, it's ok. Not perfect. Live with it. Is it me asking for perfection in a piece where close is all that should be expected? Looking forward to next month and CTCs redesign.

[Denny M]

I picked mine up May 5 for my PM9. The laser was dead on right out of the box. I have not noticed any "gaps" in the fit. Hope I am one of the lucky ones.

"They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor saftey." Ben Franklin

[gagnejs8]

Has anyone heard about the status the redesign for this issue?

[Ljutic]

I called in on Monday for my replacement and just got the UPS notice that it shipped. I'll post here if the June version is a better fit.

[BEARDOG]

Just wanted to let you guys know that my replacement laser, dated May 2011, did not fit any better.

I gave up on it for now, I will wait to see if they make any changes in the future.

[TheTman]

I took a fine file and some sanding paper to mine and got it to fit a little better.
I took just a little at a time off, then checked the fit, then rinse and repeat.

[mightymouse]

I took a fine file and some sanding paper to mine and got it to fit a little better.
I took just a little at a time off, then checked the fit, then rinse and repeat.
Any pictures?
Got one coming next week.

[mightymouse]

Any pictures?
Got one coming next week.
Came today. Manufactured in April... alas, its the poor fitting version.


I took a fine file and some sanding paper to mine and got it to fit a little better.
I took just a little at a time off, then checked the fit, then rinse and repeat.
Where did you take off material?

[joshh]

local kahr employee said there is def a problem w/ ct fit. my friend got one and it fits like a glove but doesnt hold zero after 20+/- rounds.

[deadhead1971]

I guess I am late to the party. Got my LG 437 in Feb 2010. It has that gap on the left side as you are looking at it from the front. I just assumed it was just the way they fit. Regarding holding zero, it mostly does. It holds up and down solid. Left and right, it moves a tad after maybe 30 rds, and I have to make a slight adjustment.

[BEARDOG]

Here is a new update from Kraigster on the elsiepea forum...
Now CTC is claiming the LG-437 is not the problem... but that Kahr Arms is making all the frames out of spec!!!
http://elsiepeaforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14979.msg141153;topicseen#new

Everyone with this problem should contact Kahr and ask them about the out of spec frames that CTC claims they are selling.

Also here is a link to a thread in the C.S. section of CTC forums you may wish to add your 2 cents to.
http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php?topic=36825.0

[aray]

Bummer that this hasn't been resolved before now. There is only a week left in CT's $50 rebate program and I suspect some folks have been holding off making purchases until they know they can get a unit that will fit right. Too bad.

[knkali]

bought two lasers from them and sent in the rebate 7 wks ago. Havent recieved any money yet.

[Phooey]

If the "frame out of spec" thing is for real I may be able to tell soon as Kahr Customer Service is sending (via FFL) my CW45 back with replacement frame. They said "issues" for second return were due to out of spec frame. I had just rec'd my CT Laserguard before sending back so I will let you all know (if interested) if the fit is better with a new frame FWIW.

[kraigster414]

I have had (3) LG437's for my CM9 (all sent from the factory) and none of them have fit right. All have had the gap. :(

[mightymouse]

Riiiight. My frame is made wrong. Kahr should have put a dip in the right side and changed the radius.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g22/BowtiedZ/CT-004-1.png << April '11 manufacture

[les strat]

I guess I lucked up. Mine that I bought last month does not have the gap or seem mismatched (or either my frame is "in-spec"), and I can't slip a piece of paper between the CT and the frame. I do notice it seems to drift when I point it at the wall after a week or so of carry. I need to put it to work at the range some more to back that up.

[MikeyKahr]

I wonder if only new-style PM9/CM9s have frames that are out of spec to mate up with the CT laserguards nicely? My old-style PM9 fits well, any other old-style PM9 owners having issues? Agreed with aray, it is too bad and if it really is Kahr's fault on the frames, there's going to be a few ticked off owners especially with the popularity of the CTs.

[MrToad]

I just got a CT guard yesterday, IIRC the date on it was Feb '11. It fits up pretty well, though there is a slight gap on the right. Not quite as extreme as mightymouse's, but it is still noticeable, though in all honesty I'm not sure I would have necessarily thought anything about it had I not seen the thread. I do notice that the two halves don't fully fit together, meaning I can see a slight gap such that I can see the battery.
Offhand I don't know the age of my PM9, but it looks pretty new.

[mightymouse]

Anyone with a vintage PM9 (or other) with perfect fitting CT willing to post a picture looking down the barrel straight on?

[gagnejs8]

CTC just posted a response on their forum about the issue. They now say its because of the wide number of guns that the laserguard fits. Which we know is crap, but thats their official answer.

http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php?topic=36825.0

[MrToad]

For what it's worth here are a couple of pics of mine with the CT:

http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad2/breley/Kahr/pm92.jpg
http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad2/breley/Kahr/pm91.jpg

[mightymouse]

Yep, that's the poor fitting one.

[TheTman]

Sorry, didn't see your post. I sanded the middle of the CTL, on either side of the seam that runs up the middle of it. That is just a thin layer of plastic material. I'm not totally happy with it, but it seems to have a little better fit than it did when I put first put it on. It still has a bit of a gap on that I'm not happy with, but it seems a little better than before. I didn't take very much material off. Just a little bit at a time then check the fit. I think I stopped there as I was done for the day and was going shooting the next day. You can see in the photo how there is a little bit of a gap still on the left side.

http://kartalk.pccomps.com/KahrCTL.jpg

[TheTman]

Here is what I started with.
http://kartalk.pccomps.com/CTLfit2.JPG

[deadhead1971]

You can add me to the list of LG437 owners with the right-sided gap on the PM9. Since the gap is not seen on the left side (always right), that leads me to think it's CT, not Kahr.

[S281]

I just got my CT laser in the mail and am gonna be installing it in a bit on my new to me CM9. I'll post a pic of mine afterwards. But a quick question, mine didnt come with the little soft case/bag or warranty card like the guy on the youtube video review had with his. Did anybody else get either of those?

[Phooey]

Just to add to the mix...got the CW45 back today from Kahr service with the new frame (big difference in trigger action and feel by the way :-) ) and put the laserguard on it. The CTL does not follow the radius of the frame well at all - leaving approx 1/32" gap on both sides. The fit is tight to the front of the trigger guard where it (CTL) attaches but may have a potential for movement with repeated rounds fired. As to trying to fit a business card between CTL and frame - possible but not very deep. My only concern (and I am not an engineer) is stability due to the fitment only being along centerline and it being able to hold zero. Rock 'n roll?
Before fitting I checked fitment of the CTL to itself without battery, fitment to itself with battery and fitment to CW45. I must have a relatively good unit but will proceed with caution as to cleaning and watch to be sure it maintains zero. FWIW and YMMV:frown:

[deadhead1971]

S281 - mine came in small box. I think it came with a soft black bag with red letters for CT on it. There was paperwork in the box. The seriel# is on the outside on the bottom. You can register on-line. That's what I did. I did not send in the card. I got my LG437 in Feb 2010 so CT may not be doing the bag thing now.

[Phooey]

S281 - mine came in small box. I think it came with a soft black bag with red letters for CT on it. There was paperwork in the box. The seriel# is on the outside on the bottom. You can register on-line. That's what I did. I did not send in the card. I got my LG437 in Feb 2010 so CT may not be doing the bag thing now.

Purchased mine in April from Midway, came in a foam wrapper with a battery, decal and registration card - no bag.
Forgot to add - came in box with the screws and one little tiny q-tip kind of lens cleaner thing a ma bob too:rolleyes: Would have liked the little baggy - maybe as new holster for my "shooter" marble:D

[hoytinak]

I just placed my order for my Crossbreed Mini-tuck for use with my CW9 w/CT laser. Looks like I'm gonna wait the full two months it takes to get the holster before I order the CT laser, hopefully they'll figure it out by then.

[TheTman]

Mine came with a soft cloth case and warranty card, in a small CTL labeled box. Did you get the little hex wrenches to put it together and adjust the POA?
Here is everything I got with the CTL:
http://kartalk.pccomps.com/CTLbox.JPG

[gagnejs8]

Ive gone thru 3 CTC's on my PM9 and none came with the bag. Always inside the foam with the bag of q-tips, allen wrenches, and battery.

[S281]

they must not give out that bag any more, not that i would ever need or use it, but i was just curious if i got a returned unit or something. Anyways, here is the fitment of my CT laser on my CM9, (build date of Feb 2011), pretty piss poor in my opinion and i really hope CT figures it out soon.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m24/spederman/227.jpg

[atv223]

That's exactly how mine looked. My build date was April 2011. CT is sending me a new one, I really hope this on fits right. I like the laser, but would really like it to fit tightly on my $700 PM9.

The other thing is that since you have to buy holsters either with or without CT laser fitment, I really hate to invest in a good holster for the gun with the laser it's not going to fit properly. I'll report back on how my new one fits, but I don't hold out too much hope based on other reports.

I wonder if there is a way to modify the laser to make it fit properly?

[kraigster414]

It would be very helpful if Kahr would speak to CTC's claim that it is Kahr's frame specs that are causing the fit problem and not the CTC LG-437 mold.


http://forums.crimsontrace.com/index.php?topic=36825.0

http://elsiepeaforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=14979.165

PS: I have gone through 3 units (all recent builds) and all had the fit problem.

[jocko]

I doubt if kahr would get into that "pissin contest" with ctc, as indeed it could even be kahrs specs are not perfect, but kahr doesn't make their guns with the notion that ctc or any other laser company unit must fit perfectly. That has to be ctc objective to get it right. If kahrs had a 45 degree angle in the trigger guard, ctc should design for that, . I don't see kahr correcting anything to accomadate ctc, not their problem.

CTc just does not want to redesign their unit to fit better on kahrs, IMO

I knowu tried hard to work with ctc on this rich, but it seems ctc is not goinbg to budge on what they have stated lately, which I am sure does not set to well with most.

[kraigster414]

Bernie, I hear you. I think what we have done and is of benefit, is that we've raised a cautionary flag that might cause folks to think twice about purchasing the LG-437 for their P/C if like a lot of us we want and expect a well-fitting unit - essentially what we've learned to expect from CTC (overall they make exceptional products). I would agree too that Kahr probably will not intercede or take a stand unless they are currently or considering offering the P/C series guns with the CTC LG-437 pre-installed at the Kahr factory. They would not want guns and/or lasers coming back.

[atv223]

My guess is that it's a tolerance stack up issue between the gun and the laser. Each company has their own tolerances that they design their product to. Consequently, the tolerances of the laser would need to be built around the tolerances of the gun so that regardless of where either product falls in the tolerance or there will be fit issues. That is a challenge to begin with then when there are 2 companies involved, one could change their design/tolerance with no regard for the other, messing everything up. Then couple that with the fact that the same laser is designed to fit several different Kahr guns, all of witch may or may not have the same tolerances. It's actually surprising to me when these things actually work out!

Injection molds are very expensive, so if CT is only having problems with the PM9 fit, it fits fine on the other models, and complaints are relatively few (I assume there are a lot more lasers sold than the few of us on this forum) I am not surprised that they aren't going to fix the problem. Few companies will make a bad financial division to the order of the $10's of thousands of dollars to make a few customers happy.

[skater4790]

I posted the other day about my Crimson laser on my PM9 losing point of aim after a few rounds at the range. After 40 rounds the laser was to the right of the front sight. I removed the laser at the range because the button felt different. At home I placed the laser back on the gun and zero it in. I went to range a few days later and again the laser was off point of aim. At home I readjusted the laser and this time I hit the gun (unloaded) on side and got the laser to move. Crimson offered to fix it, not replace it. I’m starting to think it might have something to do with fit of the laser, because no matter how tight I put the laser on the gun I can still see the batteries a little bit.

[jocko]

My guess is that it's a tolerance stack up issue between the gun and the laser. Each company has their own tolerances that they design their product to. Consequently, the tolerances of the laser would need to be built around the tolerances of the gun so that regardless of where either product falls in the tolerance or there will be fit issues. That is a challenge to begin with then when there are 2 companies involved, one could change their design/tolerance with no regard for the other, messing everything up. Then couple that with the fact that the same laser is designed to fit several different Kahr guns, all of witch may or may not have the same tolerances. It's actually surprising to me when these things actually work out!

Injection molds are very expensive, so if CT is only having problems with the PM9 fit, it fits fine on the other models, and complaints are relatively few (I assume there are a lot more lasers sold than the few of us on this forum) I am not surprised that they aren't going to fix the problem. Few companies will make a bad financial division to the order of the $10's of thousands of dollars to make a few customers happy.

totally agree with ur analysis. The laser actrually works OK on the gun and does not loose it adjustments. This has been discussed even more over on the lcp forum by kahr owners,and none that I can remember commented that it would not adjust and stay that way,k It just to them looked NOT RIGHT. I think at first CTC acknowledeghed this but I don't see them making a new mold to make this fit LOOK better. I don't think it is kahr related and heh they came out with the gun first and CTC merel;y made a laser to fit it,so it is CTC problem, not kahrs. I know some of the guys over on the lcp forum are not happy with CTC..

[mightymouse]

Looks like they are following up on my suggestion on putting up a disclaimer for the fit.


*Based on machining variances between pistol models, it is possible that some consumers may experience a slight "gap" between barrel and Laserguard®. This does not affect overall fit and function of the laser sight in any way, shape or form.

[MrToad]

I find it odd that the two halves don't quite match up from the topview either (note how the problematic right half juts out a couple millimeters mmore than the left, almost as though they are based off of different generations of molds...that's pure speculation on my part, since I have nothing to compare it with, just seems visually odd to me):

http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad2/breley/ctguard1.jpg

[knkali]

wow that picture says a lot

[jocko]

kinda hard withg a photo showing that to even thinkj of blaming kahr. those two halves are way off..

[jocko]

Looks like they are following up on my suggestion on putting up a disclaimer for the fit.

what a cop out when u look at the photo here of the two halves..

[MrToad]

kraigster414 pointed me out to the relevant Crimson Trace thread on CT's forum. Another member showed a picture virtually identical to mine in terms of alignment, so the perceived mismatch (I say perceived since I only have the one I own...any people with better-fitting older models see this?) is not unique to me.

[mightymouse]

My 1/2s didn't line up perfectly either and one side lower to boot. This is just crap quality control and letting greed steer your company. The frame fit is one thing, but this series has issues beyond just the frame radius.
I'm willing to go out on a limb and guess there aren't a bunch of different frame variations. Viewing the images on the internet and their nearly carbon copy way of (mis) fitting, I'd guess there are two,... if any.

Since CT has chosen to keep selling these, now with a disclaimer for fit, I feel the only real way to get their attention is for the majority of Kahr owners to quit buying their product.
I have made my last purchase from their company regardless of make and model. Who knows how they will treat the next generation of the latest greatest firearm. Replacements that are just as poor as the problematic ones solve nothing.
Its a great opportunity for another laser sight company to move in on a popular market.

[jocko]

really doesn't matter if they want to claim that khars lowers are different, they are making a laser to fit kahrs and certain models, and if they can't do it because of to many variations of kahrs lowers then they should not make their laser for the gun.

I really dobn't buyt the excuse that is the kahrs that are not right when their lasers from photos clearly shows two halves that do not maske a whole. that is a qua.ity cojntrol thing that they don;'t want to address,,,,YET. It would be a much easier cop out if their two halves mated perfectly then they could at least say that our laser is pefect fit.

I wonder if the ctc for the cw series fits this poorly???Does anyone know if the cw series c tc is actually a different laser mount. Those lower trigger guards on all polymer kahrs sure look identical.

[S281]

Mr Toad, your pic is exactly how mine looks too.

What ive also noticed is that if i put the laser on the gun, and pinch it with my fingers at the end, i can get the gap to disappear, but once i start to put the two screws in to the laser, thats when it gets completely misaligned from the frame.

[S281]

I would also wondering if my laser looks like everybody else when its on. When i point it at anything, i get these stray "rays" coming off the red laser dot. I circled it on this pic i took. Does everybody else have these "rays" coming off the red laser dot as well?

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m24/spederman/105-1.jpg

[jocko]

send that photo email to ctc, they should be able to tell u that. doesn't look right to me but I have no clue, s281 is this laser on the PM kahr or cw. I was looking at their site and the same laser fits all Polymer 9 and 40 cal kahrs, so it should be off on all models then , I would think..

Email: customer@crimsontrace.com

[S281]

send that photo email to ctc, they should be able to tell u that. doesn't look right to me but I have no clue, s281 is this laser on the PM kahr or cw. I w2as looking attheir site and the same laser fits all Polymer 9 and 40 cal kahrs, so it should be off on all models then , I would think..

Email: customer@crimsontrace.com

Thanks for the email addr, i'll send them the pic. Also, I have a CM9.

[gagnejs8]

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i340/gagnejs8/IMG_2482.jpg

You talking about this picture I posted over on CTC forum?

[MrToad]

Yes, that's the one.

[MikeyKahr]

I would also wondering if my laser looks like everybody else when its on. When i point it at anything, i get these stray "rays" coming off the red laser dot. I circled it on this pic i took. Does everybody else have these "rays" coming off the red laser dot as well?

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m24/spederman/105-1.jpg

S281, I don't get any of the strays that you have. Have you cleaned your lens lately with the swabs that came with your CTC? When my lens gets dirty, I get the swab out and give it a quick clean and get the bright sharp dot once again. For me, when the lens gets dirty, I don't get the sharp point of dot but rather more of a cloud with a less bright dot in the center (kind of like what you have minus the stray rays). What's the picture look like after you clean up your lens, still get the strays?

[S281]

S281, I don't get any of the strays that you have. Have you cleaned your lens lately with the swabs that came with your CTC? When my lens gets dirty, I get the swab out and give it a quick clean and get the bright sharp dot once again. For me, when the lens gets dirty, I don't get the sharp point of dot but rather more of a cloud with a less bright dot in the center (kind of like what you have minus the stray rays). What's the picture look like after you clean up your lens, still get the strays?

THANKS! i never even thought of cleaning it since it is brand new. I wiped it off and the stray rays are gone! I still get a hazy halo around the red dot, but i'm thinking that might be normal? anybody have just the red dot, with no halo around it?

[MikeyKahr]

THANKS! i never even thought of cleaning it since it is brand new. I wiped it off and the stray rays are gone! I still get a hazy halo around the red dot, but i'm thinking that might be normal? anybody have just the red dot, with no halo around it?

What do you mean by halo, S281? Do you mean a distinct ring around the center dot? Or something else? I'll have to take a picture of my dot when I get home, but mine is almost all red dot center with just a very small amount of residual cloud around the dot. Cloud gets a bit more pronounced longer I shoot without cleaning the lens.

[rogerthedodger]

I am getting stray light "hairs" on my P380 CT, have called and they gave me a return #. I am sending it in for repair.

[S281]

What do you mean by halo, S281? Do you mean a distinct ring around the center dot? Or something else? I'll have to take a picture of my dot when I get home, but mine is almost all red dot center with just a very small amount of residual cloud around the dot. Cloud gets a bit more pronounced longer I shoot without cleaning the lens.

Yes the cloud ring is exactly what I mean. No matter how much I clean it, I can't get it to disappear.

[Phooey]

May I suggest some rubbing alcohol on the end of your swab when cleaning? Works really well at getting it clean but still takes a few times - this tip was actually from CT Customer Service - I did it and sure enough, no clouds! FWIW/YMMV