First Kahr, MK9 with FTE troubles, advice?

[xaman]

Hello,

I'm brand new to the world of Kahr -- just picked up my first, a second hand MK9, hoping to replace my Glock 26 with something a little easier to conceal in summer wear but still decent to take to the range. It feels great in hand, shoots well (even though the long smooth trigger is going to take a little getting used to) and carries like a dream. I really want to carry this gun.

Reliability is a problem. The previous owner said it was perfect after break-in. I cleaned it before the first range trip, where I put 120 rounds through with 3 FTEs and one slide lock back with rounds still in the mag.

Second range trip was yesterday, with some different ammo. 130 rounds, 3 more FTE and one more premature slide lock back.

Ammo so far was:
50 rounds Wolf steel cased (I've since realized Kahr says avoid steel cased)
150 rounds.Dynamic Nobel (GECO) 124 gr.
50 rounds Federal FMJ
(I also ran just 2 clips of some Winchester +p hollow points, no problems)


The malfunctions are stovepipes, every time (except the slide locking back prematurely, which I'm willing to accept as user error for now). I don't believe I could be limpwristing though, there's something else wrong. They all were the same, I should have taken a picture, the spent case got pinched between the slide and barrel. This is a bit disheartening.

Also, it came with two mags, the 6 and the 7 rounder, the stovepipes happen with both.


This morning I did a detailed slide strip and clean, looking for anything out of the ordinary and snapped a few bad pics. I'm not sure you can see anything, as I'm a terrible photographer, but here goes:

The extractor -- One end is rounded, but it looks to me like it was purposeful. I searched online but couldn't find any close-up pics of a new extractor to compare this with. There is a small dent visible, even if the rounding is from the factory. I'm guessing I ought to replace the extractor just in case?


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/04ebd231.png

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/7fae07bb.png


I also snapped a pic of the barrel. There's a few hickies on the top right of the barrel (lower left in the pic). I'm not sure if that's worth noting, I was just trying to find anything that didn't look right...


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/b51d7600.png



I REALLY like this little gun and want to make it work. Any thoughts from those of you with more experience?

[jlottmc]

The first place I would look is at the recoil springs. You have no idea how many rounds have been down that tube. The extractor would be causing a more consistent problem. Before all of that though make foe sure it's not shooter error, try letting another good shooter have a go, or try shooting left handed for a spell. The steel cased ammo takes a lot of heat, but it is still SAAMI spec. If you can rule out shooter error, then go to the recoil springs. Let us know how that goes.

[jocko]

the nits/burrs on the end of the barr hood is where the casing are hitting upon ejectiion. take a fine file and remove the burr, and then smooth with some 600+ grip paper and it will never come back. That pointed end takes a beating more than some. My PM9 did that.

what you might wantt o do is also go to the kahr tech section and hit on two good sticky's that will help you alot.

#1 Kahr lube chart

#2 propper prepping of ur new kahr.

3 fte's in 120 rounds (now don't get pissed) could be shooter error. If there was a part failure, it should produce it time and time again. The premature slide lock could be two things, easily checked out.

see the propper p[repping for that to. Try to shoot it left hand if that premature slide lock goes away, it could be your thumb engaging the slide lock lever and u not knowing it.

The gun is small and when the boom thing happens the gun naturaly recoils upward and that is where that nasty thumb can come into play by hitting that slide stop and u not knowing it.

Another good test is to let anothger good shooter shoot the gun. If he can produce the same things u are having we can assume it is gun related. If he has no issues, then u have to assume shooter error. Grip is very important, more so in some guns than others.

Maybe a good polishing of the feed ramp and inside the camber can't hurt anything.

IMO your extractor looks fine, but getting a new one will cure your aprehension. Also if you order that extractor get a new extractor spring also.If ur gonna order, get a new recoil spring for the gun, and start out right. Remember the open end goes towards the front of the slide..

Might just be also that the gun and shooter need to have more time together.

[Bawanna]

How many issues did you have specifically with the Federal ammo alone.

The other two you mention would be no other ammo on the face of the earth available and it's all there is to shoot before I'd use it.
Many like and get along fine with the Wolf, it gets a solid 1 on a 1-10 scale in my book. Never heard of Dynamic Noble which means little but I suspect it's on the low end of the power scale too.
Get some WWB or more federal. Usually these things run with carry ammo with the full power to make things happen. I suspect some slightly under power loads and perhaps a thumb hitting the slide stop on occasion, it happens, I've done it myself and you don't even know it.

[jocko]

listen to the the "ol wise one"

[xaman]

Thanks for the responses guys. Jocko, I'm not above ruling out bumping the slide stop as I was gripping with thumbs up high and forward, so I will try another round with a modified grip and another shooter as well. Good advice.

Bawanna, the DN rounds are good ammo, and full power, if what I've been told is correct. I agree on the wolf stuff :). Honestly I cannot remember how many on the federal, but I know it was not immune. The +p stuff was immune, but I only fired 13 rounds of it...

I'll try to clean up the barrel as per jocko's suggestions too.

I'll keep this thread updated for future reference. Again, thanks for the feedback. I'm glad to have found a great forum (I've been reading through the MK section and getting tons of great info).

[jocko]

xaman; Trutst us we are not trying to tell u that it is shooter error. But when one has issues, he should try his best to eliminate all the possables, s that if indeed the gun has to go back you can state everything you have done to correct the issue.

ur new here so u have missed some threads where a shooter definitely felt it was a gun related thing ad then upon letting qualified jpeople (in his case 3 of them) They all shot his gun with not one issue, He was convinced after that and then himself dug into the gun more with a through striker channel cleaning and proper lubing and then he shot it with no issues either. The reason I say this and use this fella as an example is that he would have been sending back a perfectly good gun and kahr can't fix a good gun.

I myself am found of Amercian grade ammo but most all ammo will work in a kahr. What I think I would do is get some WWb at Walmart 115 grain fmj and do ur testing. If it then works perfect, then go back to your other brands and retest and if they act up u now know it is ammo related and not gun or shooter.

I have no problems with a person buying the cheapest ammo he can find for his gun, as long as he realizes that a malfunction can happen and it could be the ammo for range use, that is OK also..

[xaman]

Hey guys,

Quick partial update.

I did a full slide assembly detail clean job and ordered some new parts (magazine, recoil assembly, ejector/extractor parts. They aren't here yet, but I wanted to shoot it again before the parts arrived just to negate limp wresting or ammo or dirty internals.

I had zero premature lockbacks, so I'm attributing that to thumb bumbs. I took jocko's advice and rounded the slide stop a bit, so that was an easy fix.

However, I did have stovepipes again, with both the Gecko and Federal ammo. I really don't think I'm limp wristing. Here's what they look like:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/29a9a386.png

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i138/xamaneli/1568d297.png

This is what's happening on average 5 out of 100 rounds. Unfortunately I didn't have another experienced shooter to fire the weapon yet...


Soooo... When the new parts arrive, should I try to add them one by one, or just go for everything at once and never know what exactly caused the fix (fingers crossed that something will fix it...). Any further thoughts?

[jocko]

replce the recoil assemblyh first, leave the rest off. Hoefully u provided kahr with the right information as to what set of recoil srings to send you. make sure the outter cols are exactly the same count. sure would be nice if another good shooter could try it with you there, any smitty's around ur area?? Iwouldthink if it was a defective part, it would reproduce itself more than once every 20 rounds. A bad extractor is bad and the not good and then not bad etc.

[xaman]

UH oh, I just ordered the recoil assembly off the Kahr MK page, is there more to it than that?

[jocko]

No, I was thinking of the PM series, ur OK, sorry about that...

[ripley16]

I'd guess you have a tired recoil spring. They need to be changed every 1000-1200 rounds or so.

The Dynamit Nobel ammo should have some punch to it, more so than the Federal.

I would suggest a change of spring and if you're able, a change of range ammo... say some WWB from Walmart, just to eliminate the ammo question.

[xaman]

Well, bad news...

My parts came in the mail so I put them in (recoil assembly / extractor / extractor spring / and a new magazine = $100 from Kahr.) and headed out to the range again.

120 rounds Dynamit Nobel, 2 stovepipes
50 rounds Winchester white box, 1 stovepipe

So, it's happened with now with 4 types of ammo, 3 different magazines, and old and new parts. I also shot with multiple grips --- normal grip, death grip with locked wrists and elbo on strong hand, and for grins I even tried to limpwrist with a VERY loose grip and loose arms for about 35 rounds. Oddly enough I could not recreate the stovepipe by limpwristing. I really don't think that's what is happening.

So now I'm at a loss. I'll be trying to contact Kahr first thing monday am. I hope theyll look it over even though I bought it secondhand.

Man, I'm really sad about this, especially after improving my accuracy with so much trigger time. The long smooth trigger was finally starting to feel good to me. I would have replaced my Glock 26 in a heartbeat if I could trust this firearm. And it carries SO NICE IWB. Now I've got $550 in the gun, plus 100 for parts, plus another 100 in ammo, so $750 for a gun I don't trust. I'm sad...

And the thing is, I'd like to buy another, perhaps a brand new one, since they carry so nice, but I'm afraid to take another beating only to find out it's "almost" reliable... I guess I just need to wait and see what Kahr has to say. I'll keep this thread updated for posterity.

[jocko]

can u let another shooter give the gun a try out. 170 rounds and 3 stove pipes is very hard to troble shoot, going to be hard for kahr to duplicate. It would be nice if another good shotrer can duplicate what issues ur having. I am not saying it is shooter error, so take no offense but IMO u also need to eliminate that possability to, as 3 in 170 is to me is not indicative of a failing part..

Just a suggestion:

[xaman]

Yeah, I recognize that is a possibility (albeit a slim one in my mind). I really don't know a proficient shooter, so I'd have to search for one. My wife and I have both had the stovepipes, but she's more a novice than me. And honestly, even if it's shooter error, I'm not sure it's easily correctible, given that I've tried to duplicate it with different grips to no avail. In other words, if I don't know what I'm doing wrong, I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying it anyway.

I've never had a stovepipe with another firearm... So that makes me scared of this gun, or scared of this gun in my hands, whichever it turns out to be. I'll see if I can find another seasoned shooter in my general area. In the meantime, do you have any thoughts about what "limpwristing" really looks like, or how to overcome it? Or a link that would be worth reading?

[jocko]

xaman, definitely not saying it is shooter error. When one actually trie sto limp a gun it is hard to do. I understand your sitauation, I just would hate to see you send a "good" gun back to kahr and get it back with a message that nothing is wrong etc. That will not help your matter any at all, let alone additional cost Is there any gun smiths aroundyour area that could do some test shooting ?? ssurely u know someone who u consider proficient with a semi.

xaman, we had a fella on our forum about two weeks ago with a PM45 kahr he b ought used and had all kinds of issues and labeled it a POS. But when he let his gun shop where he bought it from take it out and shoot it with 3 people and filmed it, they had not one issue.s He was miffed with the results, but after a great cleaning and lub ing and confidence that it washim and not the gun he is shooting it now with no issues. All guns handle differently to. u have a samm 9mm here probably unlike anything else you have shot, U have to also understand that 3 stovepipes in 170 rounds is very very hard to trouble shoot beig u replaced about all parts that matterj. I can assure u kahr will not shoot a 100 rounds for test purposes. less llikely even less than 50 rounds. I am here, u are there, so I have no idea nor do I intend to say it is shooter error either. I just have to bring up the possability as it is in the menu of things that can happen..

[xaman]

I appreciate your feedback jocko, you've been super helpful.

I just spent a while looking into limpwristing and I have a very hard time believing I could be doing that ever, but especially after the range session today where I locked everything up so tightly and still stovepiped. But I do understand your position and appreciate your thoughts. I also understand that Kahr will likely not fire it enough to replicate the problem. My second round with Winxhester stovepiped today though, so maybe I'll get lucky and it'll malfunction for them, lol.

After hearing SO many good MK reports, I'm wondering whether to sell this one at a major loss and buy a brand new one, hoping for better luck. This little guy carries so well without dressing around my Glock (plus I like it's aesthetics way more than the ugly Glock). I'll have to think on this some more...

[Cokeman]

Hmm...how major are we talking? :hungry:

[jocko]

xaman: here is my take on this. more than likely this is why the first owner sold the MK. Morally and ethically the right thing to do is get the gun fixed and then sell it, yes I know if you get the gun fixed u proably will keep it, then that is a plus for you, but I really get my dandruff up when one peddles a bad gun. It is just not the right thing to do. We are not used car dealers selling prodcuts. They will tell u anything to sell the product. I think if it was me I would call kahr and have a nice chat with them. you will have to pay to send it back that is a given, but they might share the cost the other way. if you document all the new parts you put in the gun, then they should not be putting in those parts new and charging you for it, you must express that in your letter to them so thay know well and sure what the deal is. Then proceed from their. if it is a major repair, have them call you and discuss it. A new MK today is not different than the MK u have now, Sure it shold be OK but that is not a given and if it has to go back after this first fiasco, ur gonna be real pissed.they are super guns, they really don't give much head aches, yours is different and if u send it in your gonna have to relate to them that the stove pipes are sporadic so as not to just shot 20 rounds and give up on it as OK. I hate to see you take a loss to but IMO I don't think you really want to trade in a bad gun. Now I don't know if you bought it from a dealer or a gun show or what, bu tif a dealer sold it to you he might work out something with you on it to keep good customer relations. I do think you have done all you can back here on ur gun and it needs to go back, ur not limping the gun, u have worked to hard to prove that is not the issue.

PM sent:

[xaman]

Absolutely, I wouldn't sell the gun without full disclosure. I'm keeping this thread active and updated for public record as well. I'm guessing you are right in that the previous owner had the same issues, but he told me it was flawless after break-in so I'll just have to take him at his word, it's not like I'm going to get a refund anyway :)

If I sell it, it would be discounted for someone who either wants a range gun, or is comfortable with 98% carry gun, or is more patient/proficient to tinker with it and get it dialed in. But if I get it right first, I will definitely keep it, if reliable it will perfect carry piece for me.

I'll let you guys know what happens next, thanks for all the insight.

[CJB]

Ditto recoil spring. Remember to rack the slide a few hundred times.. .break that spring in.

[GOOFA]

If you were using Federal Champion 115gr ammo that's your culprit, marginal at best. Get yourself a decent box of 124gr FMJ ammo while breaking in your new spring. Winchester Nato would be fine, S&B 124gr, American Eagle 124gr just stay away from the bargain stuff. That should take care of your troubles, if not you then need to look more into your grip and eliminate any movement. Good luck.

[xaman]

I talked to Kahr today and they said ship it in but it won't be covered under warranty. I'm not sure it's worth the money and the trip. I'm gonna chew on it a bit.

In the meantime i wanted to see if racking the slide might help the new recoil spring, so i did 200 racks last night, then I shot a few clips of Winchester NATO today and got 2 stovepipes. That's when I came in and called Kahr. The dilemma continues :)

I did think if an acquaintance who's a more experienced shooter than I am, so I may try to get with him if possible and let him try it too.

[jocko]

what is winchester NATO ammo.?? Have u tried regularover the counter wwb like at walmart??/ good idea to let another shooter try the gun, if he canproduce what ur having then assume it is now gun related.

[xaman]

Winchester NATO, best I can tell is an FMJ with the equivalent of +p loading, supposed to be hot. I already tried white box Winchester. I'll keep you updated.

[jocko]

I think I new thaqt about the hot part but just never seen it around anywhere for sale. evidently the wwb didn't do any better huh??

definitely let another guy shoot the gun, eliminate all possables, and that way if u have to call kahr u can tell them that just not u had this issue but other shooters also.. Kinda takes away in my mind anywys their thoughts of "well this fella is limping the gun" yadda yadda..

[xaman]

Thanks again Jocko. I'll keep you updated.

In the meantime I went to the gun shop/rage today and fired a PM9, CW9, Ruger LC9 and LCP for grins. They all shot fine, and afterward i went into the shop intending to buy a CW9. I wanted to give Kahr a chance, seeing as I bought this MK9 second hand. But then I saw a Sig p290 in the case and after a lot of hem-hawing I walked away much poorer and a new P290 in hand.

Ran 120 rounds through it after cleaning and lube, and it was perfect. Shot it well, even though the trigger isn't as good as the Kahr. More importantly it fed on three of the ammo choices the MK9 failed with.

[xaman]

I'm leaning toward not sending it in to Karh, at least not just yet. I still intend to let someone more "trained" handle it first. Honestly, even then, not sure I want to send it back on my dime knowing that even if they try to replace or repair it'll cost me an arm and a leg, and may or may not resolve the infrequent issues. I'm leaning toward keeping it in the family for now and relegating it to range use in the off chance that the new recoil spring needs a few more rounds to break in.

With that in mind I told my 14 year old daughter she could shoot it. She's been using my 22 conversion on a full sized Glock and was ready to step up in caliber. I was thinking of getting her her own 380 or full sized 9mm, but with my new problematic MK9, perhaps letting her fire and learn how to clear the rare failure is better than relegating it to paperweight status :D


Interesting results at the range today - 50 rounds of UMC bulk FMJ without hiccup, all in her hands. I've gone 52 rounds one other time (immediately after changing all the parts) with no issues, so it's not a new record, but it was encouraging nonetheless. I really expected to have more problems with the UMC since it is weaker than the Dynamit Nobel I've been mostly using, but it fed and extracted reliably.

She loved it, and got used to the trigger after a couple mags. She was grouping decently at 7 yards, as little as 2-3" when she took her time.

She's going to get to learn how to clean it this weekend :D

It's probably premature to speculate, but I'm hoping beyond hope that i helped the problems when i replaced all those parts, but that the new recoil spring now needs to break in. With today's range session, we're close to 200 rounds on the new spring. Of course the other possibility is that there is something in my particular grip that is problematic for this particular gun. Just not sure yet.

As always, thanks for reading, and I'll keep you updated. I don't want to leave this one hanging in cyberspace without resolve for future google searchers :)

[dss07]

Thanks for your post and updates, xaman; they have been very helpful in working through my MK9 issues. I have been documenting my FTE issues with my brand new MK9 here (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6942) and here (http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/123595-kahr-advice-please-new-mk9-fte-problems.html). I have fired over 400 rounds through it and have continued to experience problems despite trying most of what has been recommended. I broke down today and called Kahr. After describing the problem and what I had done to trouble-shoot it, they concluded that a gunsmith had to look at firearm. I live in DC, so sending and receiving a handgun is a veritable nightmare. But I just don't feel comfortable ignoring the FTE issues, especially because it is a brand new firearm.

Will keep you posted.

[jocko]

well at least ur trying to not criticize the gun as the culprit, being your daghter wa sable to fire 50 rounds through it with no issues. That could very well be an indication that maybe just you and the gun are not meant for each other . I wold think kahr would fix your gun once back with minimul charges at best other than postage back. they have been known to do that many times. Ihave yet to rea dof one sending back a gun not under warranty and getting hosed by kahr. BUT BUT that being said,k if u send back a gun that indeed works perfect back at kahr, then you have gained nadda, nothing, zero, so take ur time besides your daughter let another goodf shooter give it some rounds down arange. I would try to stay away from this 100+ to 200 rounds at one session thing,as this just produces more chances for shooter error,. These are smallguns, even though the MK is all steel it is still smallby most guns standards and it is easy for grip changes to result and u not know it is happening. Normally a Fresh shooter is a good shooter.

[xaman]

Thanks for your post and updates, xaman; they have been very helpful in working through my MK9 issues. I have been documenting my FTE issues with my brand new MK9 here (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6942) and here (http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/123595-kahr-advice-please-new-mk9-fte-problems.html). I have fired over 400 rounds through it and have continued to experience problems despite trying most of what has been recommended. I broke down today and called Kahr. After describing the problem and what I had done to trouble-shoot it, they concluded that a gunsmith had to look at firearm. I live in DC, so sending and receiving a handgun is a veritable nightmare. But I just don't feel comfortable ignoring the FTE issues, especially because it is a brand new firearm.

Will keep you posted.


I've been following yours too, and hoping for the best for you. I had (maybe still have) high hopes and plans for my MK9. It's the most comfortable AIWB carry gun I've experienced, so I'm motivated beyond my normal impatience to work it out. I hope to have it refinished eventually in a deep black with silver contrasting small parts, wood grips. But not until I'm ultra confident in it.

Please do keep us posted, and I'll do the same :)

[Cokeman]

With that in mind I told my 14 year old daughter she could shoot it. She's been using my 22 conversion on a full sized Glock and was ready to step up in caliber. I was thinking of getting her her own 380 or full sized 9mm, but with my new problematic MK9, perhaps letting her fire and learn how to clear the rare failure is better than relegating it to paperweight status :D

Interesting results at the range today - 50 rounds of UMC bulk FMJ without hiccup, all in her hands. I've gone 52 rounds one other time (immediately after changing all the parts) with no issues, so it's not a new record, but it was encouraging nonetheless. I really expected to have more problems with the UMC since it is weaker than the Dynamit Nobel I've been mostly using, but it fed and extracted reliably.

She loved it, and got used to the trigger after a couple mags. She was grouping decently at 7 yards, as little as 2-3" when she took her time.

She's going to get to learn how to clean it this weekend :D

So this is the expert shooter that you know? I believe it. ;)

[xaman]

So this is the expert shooter that you know? I believe it. ;)


LOL, she is pretty good. I wouldn't want to bet money against her with a 22. I'm thinking about taking her to the range to take some fellas money :D

But I did remember that I have a retired LEO and shooting I stutter that has invited me to his home. It's jut a matter of giving it a half day, it won't be an hour range trip. But if my daughter gets another flawless trip or two down, i will try my luck with it again. That'd be great and funny if she can handle it but I cannot, haha.

[Cokeman]

It's going to work. You watch.

[xaman]

We finally got back to the range today, and my daughter put another 75 rounds through. She had her first and only stovepipe. So in her hands that's 125 rounds and one failure. That's still better than I was getting, and her stovepipe looked like it was closer to ejecting than the ones I was previously having (halfway out the slide, if that makes sense.). We're going to keep shooting it and keeping good records. :)

[jocko]

one in 75 rounds IMO is not a defect but IMO maybe shooter error, Possably ur daughter was getting a tad tired and didn't realize it, and then the grip startstochange and things happen that normaly woul dnot happen to a fresh shooter..

One has to understand that if ones grip changes just a tad and the slide is now not getting the resistance it needs to fully eject a shot casing, that what you reported is exactly what will happen. The slide really never made it allthe way back to fully eject that casing. Now that is my analysis, I could be all wet to...

[xaman]

I hope so jocko, but it was mid session, maybe around round number 35-40 or so. But still, she could have easily lost her grip or something.

I still havent shot it again, i was waiting to see how she handled it. Ive been busy shooting the new sig, it had its first issue today also, a light primer strike. But that's the first problem in 400 rounds on that gun.

The problem is, after i got home and cleaned the guns, i dry fired the kahr a few times and that smooth trigger reminded me why i wanted the MK9 to work out so badly. The trigger smokes the Sig 290. :(

[Cokeman]

The trigger smokes the Sig 290. :(

So do the looks.

[TedsPm9]

take your mag spring out and stretch it about 1" longer than it is now that should take care of the problem my 1911 did the same thing took care of it no more problems so many times the simplest things can correct the problem

[jocko]

take your mag spring out and stretch it about 1" longer than it is now that should take care of the problem my 1911 did the same thing took care of it no more problems so many times the simplest things can correct the problem

work for awhile but if it is spring relatred, best buy new springs. Springs are desinge dto take a set,they they always look shorter than a new one that has never been in a magazine but that is by design.

Wolffs makes a 5% more strength magazie spring for kahrs that I highly recommend..

[xaman]

So do the looks.


Plus 10 to that. The Sig isn't pretty at all, which isn't important to most, but I cannot help but want a pretty carry piece :)