One in the pipe..? or not?

[WMD]

Question.....

I spoke to a fellow Kahr pistol owner who tells me he prefers to carry his Kahr with an empty chamber. Are there other folks on this list that do the same? I carry my P380 with a round in the chamber. My thinking is that if I need to use the gun, I may not have time to rack the slide and may end up pushing up daisies! :p

I mentioned to him that if he wants to carry a gun with an empty chamber he should consider carrying a revolver. That way all he would have to do is pull the trigger if the gun is need to defend his life.

I am interested in what other folks think about this..... Thoughts?

[jocko]

been discussed a thousand times over on every gun forum. Your reply to the fella IMO was dead on...

[Ol'coot]

+1 on the reply, When you draw and need your weapon is not the time to be racking the slide. PERIOD!

[monty]

Racking the slide is for Hollywood. I always have mine on ready.:)

[Dietrich]

When bad things happen,they tend to happen very quickly.In a self defense situation you don`t want to be caught with your britches down.Always one in the pipe.Always!!!

[Longitude Zero]

Without a live round in the tube you might as well leave the firearm at home.

[pacific nw guy]

you could also carry a knife, that way you can stall the attacker with a big knife by throwing it at the person while you rack the slide...sorry I am only kidding and the irony is that I am a newb and went through the same questions in learning about guns.

IMO if the gun is holstered it should be safe enough to carry. People who put a gun in their pocket without a holster are the ones who shoot themsleves or drop it and cause it to go off.

Especially with how the PMs seem to work racking the slide when the zombies are coming may take a bit too much time and most zombies are not afraid of knives anyway.....

[1911]

ALWAYS keep one in the pipe! If you pull out the gun and need to rack it you just gave the bad guy a reason to shoot you first! I can't imagine why anyone would want to carry a gun with out a round chambered. Sounds like you gave good advice to your friend.

Maybe take him to the range, put up a target and see who can get a shot off first from a timed start. That might change his mind about how he carries his gun.

Just my 2 cents! :)

[Raoul]

Always one in the pipe.

[Arizona T]

For me it's 1 in the breach ready to reach!!!!

No exceptions to this rule for me !! My nuggs are checked everytime I pick them up!

AZ T

[Fenderman]

For me it's 1 in the breach ready to reach!!!!

No exceptions to this rule for me !! My nuggs are checked everytime I pick them up!

AZ T


Same goes for me my dad used to say son the time it takes you to rack that slide could cost you your life! And like AZ i check mine everytime i pick them up.After my dad passed away from cancer in 2006 he was 78 years old my stepmother wanted me to have his 3 pistols 2 autos and one revolver all 3 were fully loaded and the 2 autos had one in the pipe ready to go.

[Wayne's World]

I have friends that carry pipe empty. Not me.
I read someone above, that said "that's hollywood", I agree.
I consider it a loss of surprise, hearing a slide racking.
Just my 2 cents.

[pacific nw guy]

I am not sure how the other kahrs work but from what I have learned of the PM relying on racking the slide to load it is not a good idea on the first place....with that in mind if you dont carry one in the chamber now you have the added possibility of the round getting stuck unless you have enough time to lock the slide open and then release it and then get involved in whatever situation has arisen......

[G-9]

I like what everyone has said so far!!!! It takes up too much precious time that you may not have to protect yourself and family. AS for me +1 all the time.
I am pretty much a newbie here. I really like what I have seen so far.
Kahrs are a great gun.

[500KV]

I carry my Kahr with an empty chamber and I should know better. However, I don't mind carrying a commander sized 1911 cocked and locked. But I have to agree with the majority about having a round in the chamber, I'm asking for trouble If a situation arises were a split second can make the difference between life and death.
Alright west, you've seen and admitted the error in your ways.
Now just go right now and charge the sucker up.
It's not going to go off till you pull that trigger.
Hope you never have to use it BTW.
Merry Christmas...;) :D

[wyntrout]

A scenario that scares the heck out of me is someone with a knife at close quarters. You've heard the phrase "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight", well, if there's not one in the tube, chances are that you just brought a rock to a knife fight. There's a pretty good chance you'll never get to rack that slide if you have to fend off a knife attack with one arm, maybe your strong arm. Were the gun loaded you might be able to keep the knife from your torso while you draw your ready-to-shoot weapon. Your weak arm could be incapable of racking the slide if sliced up. Just something to think about. I never really trained with a knife, but I watched a video on YouTube and it was sobering -- slash to incapacitate, then follow up with whatever it takes to end the fight. It can be a little distracting, too, if you're holding your vitals in after a slash.
Just something to think about. People tend to underestimate knives -- how fast things can happen. :eek:
Wynn

[jocko]

almost as bad as carrying a 3 blade pocket knife and expecting the BG to wait on you while you got it opened, Just makes no sense..

[Vinikahr]

Racking the slide is for Hollywood. I always have mine on ready.:)

... and for the Israelis!:behindsofa:

[Vinikahr]

One in the pipe since 1992. You just need the right firearm to the formula.

[Romadoc]

I often have a worry about only having 7+1 in my K9 as compared to the 15+1
available in my Glock 26 with a model 19 magazine with spacer. To voluntarily give up another round is sheer madness. However, I've just ordered a Crimson Trace for the K9. This goes a long way towards making carrying the Kahr my preferred choice.

[Vinikahr]

YouTube - Pistol Carry Method : +1 VS Israeli ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj9UMUChV-I)

[mx5fan]

YouTube - Pistol Carry Method : +1 VS Israeli ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj9UMUChV-I)

Who says it's Israeli, not having a round chambered??

[Vinikahr]

Who says it's Israeli, not having a round chambered??
pistol-training.com Blog Archive The “Israeli” Draw (http://pistol-training.com/archives/183)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdZ3hZ8y-w
:80:

[ltxi]

seriously stupid demo....predictable, ideal conditions. Anyone ever heard of combat related stress? And what the hell happens if you don't happen to have the second hand...available. Anyone capable of accidentally shooting themselves with a Kahr because they're carrying it with a round chambered most likely deserves it...natural selection.

Revolver with the next chamber empty makes just as much lack of sense.

[Price]

This whole idea that bringing your non-firing hand to your weapon, pullling the slide back, and then getting your second hand in place is less than a third of a second slower escapes me. In an actual situation this would take longer and even if one were to train extensively on this and could perform all three actions that fast I personally would not be willing to give up that time. I am sure that there is some situation out there that would justify keeping the chamber empty, but I cannot think of it. However this is one of those comfort things. The what when how and why we choose to carry is a personal preference so for me the only way I would feel comfortable is with a round in the chamber but if I felt more comfortable with the chamber empty then thats exactly how I would carry. So I dont feel the same as anyone who carrys chamber empty but I can understand why they do.
Keep Your head down good guys, Price

[ltxi]

It is just about as fast under ideal conditions and with practice but the notion of Condition 3 carry is a holdover from the early days of S/A semi-autos. Same thing with carrying older and replica S/A revolvers with the hammer down on an empty chamber. There used to valid safety arguments. With some guns, like Glocks, where the safety is imbedded in the five or six pound, short pull trigger itself maybe you can still make the case. But in a Kahr, with its very revolver like trigger pull feel/design, C3 makes no sense at all to me.

I do comprehend the comfort thing, especially if you don't have a full appreciation of how the internals work. Just seems like a good way to get yourself killed, though, if/when the dynamics go south.

[zena]

Always one in the chamber. Hope to never need it but isn't this the point to carrying? To be ready. Not sort of ready.

[kahrs&cars]

+1..I would have to agree. Always a round in the pipe and ready if needed incase a bad situation should arise and my life is in danger.

When seconds count...the less needed to prepare, the better.

[mx5fan]

I'm always ready to rock and roll.

I think it's sort of a process. When I first started to carry, I was just getting used to the idea of having a pistol on my person and that was enough for me to deal with and get my head around. Once I had more extensive training at Front Sight in Nevada (4 day tactical handgun), I felt some much more confident and capable, it became second nature to just carry with one in the chamber. Now, I feel like I'm missing something if I don't carry, it's just part of getting dressed in the morning and if heaven forbid, I had to actually use my pistol against a BG, the last thing I'd want to think about is racking the slide.....so, there is always one in the pipe.

[wyntrout]

But...but...in the movies, they chase guys all over the place, apprehend them, and THEN, for emphasis, they rack the slide, as "needed"!???
Okay... but they also point their guns at the ceiling and jump from cover into the middle of the room... or hallway... gun still pointed at the ceiling... and then look around. This seems like a good tactic... like Whack-a-Mole! Also, it's harder to acquire the target when your gun's in the air. It's easier to raise your gun, still being able to see the target and bring the gun to bear. I know... I know... preaching to the choir, but some people seem to still mimic Hollywood. :rolleyes:
Wynn:D

[Vinikahr]

But...but...in the movies, they chase guys all over the place, apprehend them, and THEN, for emphasis, they rack the slide, as "needed"!???
Okay... but they also point their guns at the ceiling and jump from cover into the middle of the room... or hallway... gun still pointed at the ceiling... and then look around. This seems like a good tactic... like Whack-a-Mole! Also, it's harder to acquire the target when your gun's in the air. It's easier to raise your gun, still being able to see the target and bring the gun to bear. I know... I know... preaching to the choir, but some people seem to still mimic Hollywood. :rolleyes:
Wynn:D

Another Hollywood blunder is when they have a pistol with no hammer such as the Glock and you can hear the sound of pulling the hammer back. :4:

[wyntrout]

OR, when they have a 1911 type with the hammer down... and probably no round in the chamber either. I've seen that many times where they have chased and apprehended someone, held them at gun point with a 1911 type pistol, hammer down... and then for emphasis or to be more threatening, they rack a round into the chamber. I really hoot at stuff like that, but my wife doesn't appreciate me pointing those things out... or my comments and wants me to shut the heck up while she's watching TV or a movie. :rolleyes: Then there are the scenes where they rack a shotgun... and rerack it a few minutes later -- unspent round sailing through the air... but no retake. I've seen a shotgun racked about three times in a couple of minutes, without being fired... live rounds aflying. Then there are the scenes with the gun's slide locked back and empty, but still being pointed threateningly. It's just too much sometimes.
Did you see "Old Rambo" the latest Rambo movie? They used a LOT of 50 cal. Ma Deuces, and showed body parts aflying and lots of "misting" -- unusual realism. It certainly does that, the Ma Deuce. :eek:
And while I'm off topic... this could be under tactics and CCW -- Magnum, PI. I don't know if you've ever watched that (while TDY to Hawaii, I once drove through a scene while they were shooting that series and saw him sitting in the red Ferrari -- early 80's). But I always marvelled at him chasing BGs while carrying a full-sized 1911 .45 in the back of his short-shorts... and he could always pull a fresh mag or two from somewhere.:rolleyes: He would need some kind of holsters or mag holders grafted to his backside!:eek:
Wynn:D
I'll shut up now!:o

[asd123]

That way all he would have to do is pull the trigger if the gun is need to defend his life.




















the tribe seasons 1-5 dvd boxset (http://www.dvdcollectionsale.com/The-Tribe-Seasons-1-5-DVD-Boxset-DVD-1415.html)

[Bstinson]

I think this point is under-stressed...
You may not have a arm free to rack the slide in a bad situation.

The reason for carrying is not to intimidate but to defend.
In a defensive moment you need all your wits and abilities to get to safety.
Who would really want to waste any time worrying about racking the slide?

If you create some good habits in gun safety then there should be no problems.
I don't know of any law enforcement agency in the US that train to keep a chamber empty.
If your intent is defense then always be ready.
That video was just utter nonsense IMHO.

Brad

[PETE14]

I think it is a bad idea to carry one in the chamber!

Signed,
The Robber

[Vinikahr]

That way all he would have to do is pull the trigger if the gun is need to defend his life.






















the tribe seasons 1-5 dvd boxset (http://www.dvdcollectionsale.com/The-Tribe-Seasons-1-5-DVD-Boxset-DVD-1415.html)


Are you selling?
What is your point?:86:

[Vinikahr]

I think it is a bad idea to carry one in the chamber!

Signed,
The Robber

I would like to read your position as per why?
Elaborating would contribute to your position.:86:

[PETE14]

I had the same view of why carry one in the chamber on a different website. The following is what convinced me to carry with one in the chamber (The following is attributed to "Gideon" on DefensiveCarry.com).

In defensive weapons handling, you're only deploying your weapon as a response to certain circumstances and basically when you pull it, it's with the full intention of having (and being prepared) to use it. In such a situation you have little time to think and you're immediately scared and the body startes to do things in response to the threat. Fine motor skills go out the door, we tend to go into slow motion with tunnel vision and the body is dumping addrenaline like crazy so the less you have to manipulate controls on a purely defensive weapon the better.

Although you'll get MANY different opinions on this, I believe a DAO (double action only) trigger is also optimal for a defensive weapon. If a gun is a single action, then it takes too little preassure to pull the trigger. In a DAO gun (wether auto or revolver) it typically takes more pounds of preassure to pull the trigger and the trigger usually has to travel a longer distance (pull weight and lenght of pull) before the weaon discharges.

When you're all excited/scared, you don't want the lightest shortest pull. Those triggers are great for hunting or target shooting but not for defensive shooting.

The Kahr weapons are designed for one purpose, CCW. As a result they have the fewest possible controls and they're DAO, albiet probably the lightest shortest DAO out there.

The key to safety here (besides the longer pull lenght) is keeping the trigger covered in a good holster and keeping your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot your target.

[Vinikahr]

I had the same view of why carry one in the chamber on a different website. The following is what convinced me to carry with one in the chamber (The following is attributed to "Gideon" on DefensiveCarry.com).

In defensive weapons handling, you're only deploying your weapon as a response to certain circumstances and basically when you pull it, it's with the full intention of having (and being prepared) to use it. In such a situation you have little time to think and you're immediately scared and the body startes to do things in response to the threat. Fine motor skills go out the door, we tend to go into slow motion with tunnel vision and the body is dumping addrenaline like crazy so the less you have to manipulate controls on a purely defensive weapon the better.

Although you'll get MANY different opinions on this, I believe a DAO (double action only) trigger is also optimal for a defensive weapon. If a gun is a single action, then it takes too little preassure to pull the trigger. In a DAO gun (wether auto or revolver) it typically takes more pounds of preassure to pull the trigger and the trigger usually has to travel a longer distance (pull weight and lenght of pull) before the weaon discharges.

When you're all excited/scared, you don't want the lightest shortest pull. Those triggers are great for hunting or target shooting but not for defensive shooting.

The Kahr weapons are designed for one purpose, CCW. As a result they have the fewest possible controls and they're DAO, albiet probably the lightest shortest DAO out there.

The key to safety here (besides the longer pull lenght) is keeping the trigger covered in a good holster and keeping your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot your target.

Your elaborated position seems to be different from your comment. :86:

[PETE14]

If you would have looked closely it was signed by "The Robber" (kind of a Jim Rome Reference.). Obviously any robber would want you to carry that way so it would be harder to shoot him. Total sarcasm that didn't carry over. Next time I will use a smiley face.

I have been carrying my gun with one in the chamber and at first made me nervous but I am getting used to it.

[medezyner]

Ah, asd123, am I missing a reference that The Tribe dvd set relates to in this thread?

Whomever is not putting one in the pipe for safety reasons hasn’t considered how unsafe it is having the BG get the drop on you. Or maybe that person hasn’t heard of the 21 foot rule? Knife training has opened my eyes to the speed and lethality of edged weapons. As my Guro said: “ In a knife fight, one goes to the hospital and one ends up dead”. Put one in the pipe and train, train, train.

[wyntrout]

Well said, Med' -- failure to feed could ruin your day... and it's hard to rack the slide with one arm/hand... try racking a slide in a room full of busy people... it will get real quiet and guess where all attention turns? I think that the sound of racking a slide pierces and gets through even gunfire-deafened ears. Do you really want all attention diverted to you -- "Whack-a-mole"!:eek:
Wynn:)

[Vinikahr]

If you would have looked closely it was signed by "The Robber" (kind of a Jim Rome Reference.). Obviously any robber would want you to carry that way so it would be harder to shoot him. Total sarcasm that didn't carry over. Next time I will use a smiley face.

I have been carrying my gun with one in the chamber and at first made me nervous but I am getting used to it.

That cross my mind but it really would had help with the smiley faces :59: thanks for the clarification(no sarcasm on my part)

[PETE14]

Whatever:D See I am learning!

[Vinikahr]

Whatever:D See I am learning!
:tongue::D:yo:

[ceng]

One in the chamber. If not you better train train train. I can imagine the only thing worse than hearing the click when you forget to rack would be the pain of getting shot or stabbed while you were trying to figure out that you forgot to wrack a round. Also what if you were in a tense situation where you weren't sure you would need the gun (in as store being robbed for example) if you have one in the pipe you could just pull the gun out and conceal it ready, if you don't have one in the chamber it's gonna be offaly conspicuos when you try with shaking hands to quietly put one in the pipe.

[ceng]

sorry about the spelling it's late

[wyntrout]

Amen!
Here's a more recent discussion:

http://kahrtalk.com/p-cw-series-pistols/705-cw9-carry-one-chamber.html#post5494

Wynn:)

[joje]

i carried condition 0 until we had our first kid. then something once happened that was not a near-accident, but still near enough to get me thinking. since then there is a strict empty-chamber policy in my house, and it will remain in effect until there are no toddlers around anymore. i practice accordingly, work out of my home and the few times i'm away i still carry with an empty chamber not to throw off my muscle memory. it puts me at a tactical disadvantage that could, under some circumstances, be the difference between life and death, but statistically speaking far from all self defense shootings are the kind of high-noon scenarios we like to think about, so a pistol with an empty chamber is not near as useless as some would want us to believe. i do look forward to going back to condition 0 though.

[kahrseye]

I ALWAYS carry with one chambered. I think to do otherwise is foolish. I also believe if one chooses not to carry chambered, that person does not feel secure with their own ability to handle their weapon. As mentioned earlier, saving time and element of surprise are two big advantages. I choose not to give up those advantages to someone who may do me or my family harm.

[hedgehog]

For me it's 1 in the breach ready to reach!!!!

No exceptions to this rule for me !! My nuggs are checked everytime I pick them up!

AZ T
hehehe

[steve666]

If nothing else, carrying that way will help thin out the shallow end of the gene pool.

[.45mac.40]

:yo:

Ditto, same same.
One hot, six in tha' mag. WITH... one each, six rd. mag. available.

Mac

[flyandscuba]

Round chambered 24/7/365...

[MikeyKahr]

Round chambered 24/7/365...

Even when cleaning the barrel!? :eek:

[Longitude Zero]

Without one in the tube when carrying you might as well not bother carrying the weapon at all. Nuff said.

[yqtszhj]

Always one in the pipe.

If I thought I could get 2 in there and it would help I'd do that :D

[jlottmc]

The other thing about this question is this: we carry most revolvers full up and don't give much thought to the practice. Unless it's a single action without a transfer bar, and many other guns we carry full up. Why then do some balk at the idea of leaving a semi-auto topped up? Just a thought.

[Boostedxt]

I carry with one in the pipe and the magazine topped off.

joe

[kramm]

I like most others am ready. One in the pipe. Full mag. In a bad situation, seconds count.:yo:

[robdnor]

I agree with everyone else who says keep one in the chamber... if you are forced to quickly draw and discharge, your gonna be happy its in there...
Hopefully none of us will ever have to discharge that chambered round (except in practice) but if you want to rack the slide first why not just carry a throwable item or bow and arrow (its gotta be loaded first too)
I know some may go against the chambered round, but i personally prefer being ready
:53:

[kyletx1911]

Racking the slide is for Hollywood. I always have mine on ready.:)i carry a 1911 1 in the pipe cond3 always

[deuce]

Of coarse one in the chamber.One big 45 cal. hp +P:)

[AFVet]

I always carry w/ one in the pipe. Make sure you have a good holster that covers the trigger, and it shouldn't be an issue.

[xRUSTYx]

i carry with 1 in the pipe. when i carried a P238, I carried "Cocked & Locked"

i think its really a matter of mindset ... If you can't wrap your mind around having something ready to go (where yes, a mistake could be made & there is a possibility of you getting injured) you probably shouldn't be carrying in the first place.

if a perp is watching you rack a slide before attempting to fire it at them, they have enough time to take that firearm from you and use it against you.

if you don't have it ready to go (ie: one in the chamber and/or cocked & locked) you are probably your own worst enemy and you have a better chance of getting injured/shot yourself.

[Warhammer]

Here's and interesting little video on this topic: Chamber Schmamber. It’s Too Late to Draw Your Gun. (http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/11/robert-farago/chamber-schmamber-its-too-late-to-draw-your-gun/)

[Steve-$]

When carrying my K9, I always carry one in the chamber with the magazine topped off along with a couple of spare mags.

[ltxi]

i carry a 1911 1 in the pipe cond3 always

Uh....Quoting Cooper wrt 1911s: Condition 3 is the chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Imho condition one is the only way for a competent gunny to carry a 1911

[kyletx1911]

Uh....Quoting Cooper wrt 1911s: Condition 3 is the chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Imho condition one is the only way for a competent gunny to carry a 1911oooooooops my bad wasnt thinking cond 1 always

[garyb]

Before I bought my Kahr, I had decided NOT to chamber a round, particularly because I was not used to lack of an external safety. I was talked out of purchasing a handgun with an external safety and now I see why. YES now that I have my PM40 with the DAO trigger, good holsters and I have carried for awhile, I always have a chambered round. I feel this gun is safe to carry, I am much more comfortable with it and I am prepared.

[f44life]

its not a defense gun unless a round is chambered

[earle8888]

Well here's my 2.5 cents!!!
I see lots of holster for 1911A1s and approved by many departments in the Cocked-N-Locked mode. Also, Israeli Draw??? The guy in the video should learn how to draw, move shirt the gun!!! The SAS which is known for being in serious combat situations in Urban environments, developed what was called the SAS Draw. Essentially draw with strong hand, weak hand across body, as gun, Browning Hi-power, clears leather weak hand grabs slid, movement from holster height to shooting height driven by strong hand pushes the gun Thru the weak hand drawing back the slide and continues pushing the gun out of the weak hand, the the NOW somewhat standard, push-pull two hand shooting position.
That being said, I would not feel safe carrying a cocked and locked 1911A1, or a Browning Hi-power, or for that matter, any of the OLDER, SA Autos., The newer such as the Glock and Kahr I feel very comfortable carrying with one in the chamber. being ever conscious of the fact while holstering/drawing and handling pistole until it is empty.

[Bawanna]

I used to feel exactly the same way you describe. I carried 1911's in my younger days and was never truely warm and fuzzy with the cocked and locked carry mode. I did have one accidental discharge that we don't need to get into (all safe, nobody hurt) but the bottom line was it was me and not the gun that caused it.
I went to Para LDA's because they basically act and certainly feel like a 1911 but you have some forgiveness on the trigger as well as the 1911 type safeties.
The downfall that never bothered me until Jeep and a few others around here starting talking about trigger reset. The reset is like a Kahr, you gotta let it go and start all over.
Ironically what pushed me back to the 1911 in addition to the previous line was talking with officers who carry 1911's. He compared it to a Glock. The Glock has no external safety and a decent short trigger pull with a nice short reset. Really not much different (technically it is) than a 1911 and it doesn't have an external safety or the grip safety.
So to fire a Glock you pull the trigger, if you don't want to shoot you don't touch the trigger.
On a 1911 to fire you squeeze grip safety, deactivate the thumb safety and pull the trigger. My biggest issue was in high pressure adrenaline filled scenarios where I would holster without activating the safety.
His response was index your finger all the time, dont touch the trigger it won't fire. Thumb the safety off everytime, if you forgot to put it on your already ahead of the game.
Coming off many years of carpentering whereby I put my finger on the trigger of a nail gun everytime I picked it up it's been a tough battle to retrain that finger to stay off but I think I've gotten it.
I no longer test my thumb safety activation, just trust that if its on it works.
The Cbob is riding proudly on my hip as we speak and I'm comfy.
If I'm ever not, I got 3 Para's to choose from if need be.
I truely believe 1911's aren't for everyone. And I discourage people who carry them from switching back and forth. Its the same story of the guy with one gun who knows how to use it.
I know many who will only shoot their 1911's at the range, don't even own holsters for them but love to shoot em and thats perfectly ok too.
Its all in what your confident in and what works for you.

[dusty10]

Started carrying with j frames so I was comfortable with a DA only trigger from the get go. I tried switching to numerous guns with manual safeties so I could do the cocked and locked thing. Never really warmed up to that so I went back to revolvers. Then I discovered Kahr. The platform gave me everything I was looking for. To me,that long trigger pull is just as safe as any semi-auto with a manual safety. Having said that, I only carry similar platforms (j frame or Kahr) so I don't confuse the operation and make a mistake.
Bawanna, I understand that nail gun habit. That's a tough one to work out. Took me awhile too. Thank God I don't use nail guns anymore or I'd probably still be struggling with that one.
Bottom line, one in the pipe at all times.

[Longitude Zero]

I truly believe 1911's aren't for everyone. And I discourage people who carry them from switching back and forth.

Many F/A instructors say the same thing. You are a 1911 user or you are not. Also if you do not have one in the tube you should be carrying a stick.

[wyntrout]

I still say that you lose a lot of advantage in WAITING UNTIL IT"S TOO LATE to chamber a round. It's a noisy procedure and one that will silence a crowd because it's very recognizable.... Can you say "Whacka-Mole" as you become the number one target for the most immediate consideration... then you have to worry that you got the gun into battery... AND you might be fending off an attack at close range... as a knife inside 10 feet and charging you. You might get wounded... cut... or worse and NEVER get the use of TWO HANDS to turn your rock-paperweight into anything more dangerous than a rock.
That idiot with the Israeli Draw or whatever is counting on his opponent being far away.
Just remember that you may have to use one or more hands, arms, legs, or whatever is necessary to live through initial CONTACT. You are at a disadvantage and have been lulled into thinking that you would recognize a threat and have the luxury of time to charge your weapon.
I want every advantage I can get, because my life or the lives of my family and friends might depend on being really "ARMED". In "the heat of battle" adrenaline is surging through your body and simple actions are clumsy or incomplete... as in properly chambering a round with a lot going on. With one in the chamber, I'm pretty confident that I can get at least ONE shot off and I plan on shooting until there's no danger and I won't be standing there taking careful aim... most likely I'll be diving for cover and snap shooting... staying alive being the first priority.
My $1.02... JMHO.

Wynn:yo: :hippie:

[jocko]

wyn> but ur dead right, so to me it is worth $2 bucks, anyday.

[smokey337]

Carrying my PM40 with one up the pipe is no different than carrying a small DAO revolver. Most PDs have gone to Glocks. The reasons are many but one is the simplicity of getting the gun into action. If you always consider your number one safety to be your trigger finger, that trigger finger will never be inside the trigger guard unless you mean to fire the weapon, have a target and are sure of whats both between you and the target and what's behind it.

I don't know of ANY law enforcement agency, aside from Mayberry, who trains their LEOs to maintain an empty chamber. When the Army carried 1911s, I believe they trained personnel to carry condition 3 mag loaded and hammer down on an empty chamber, but I think most guys would chamber a round and carry cocked and locked outside the fence in Indian country. When they went to the M9, they changed to Mag loaded,round in the chamber, de-cocked with the safety on. One of the requirements for the new pistol for the military when they acquired the M9 was a manual safety. Law enforcement agencies have, for the most part, gone the other way with no manual safety.

Just a thought...when we carry aren't we always in Indian country?

[TheTman]

LOL, off subject kinda, but ever notice in the movies someone fireing a few rounds, THEN racking the slide when they get the bad guy under cover, or something similiar.
Cracks me up everytime.

[jocko]

or how about pumping out a live shotgun round to load another one in. They must think the shooting public is stupid. But it makes for good movies, I guess.

[apheod]

as if the point needed driven home anymore - loaded chambers for carry whether its my pm9 or HK p2000 LEM.

i did pocket carry the pm9 for a few days with an empty chamber before my holsters came in the mail, but i still had the HK :D

[jocko]

as if the point needed driven home anymore - loaded chambers for carry whether its my pm9 or HK p2000 LEM.

i did pocket carry the pm9 for a few days with an empty chamber before my holsters came in the mail, but i still had the HK :D

in the pipe is like having a car with one of those inflateable spares. Sure takes longer to get things going right:popcorn:

[dontreadonme]

If manufacturers didn't think one in the pipe was wise, why would the PM9 (for example) be described as "6+1" capacity? It's the 1 that you need to get things started!

[kpm9]

I believe this to be one of the distinct advantabges of the kahr trigger, long and smooth so to carry one in the pipe.

[morganw]

Just reading the first few pages a lot of people say that draw and rack is hollywood. This amuses me. Anybody that thinks they are going to be in an OK Corral style shoot out with their concealed weapon is definitely living in a movie. I've lived in Texas and Florida (2 of the most gun friendly states in the US) and I do not recall any articles where draw time was the defining factor in saving somebodies life. I know just because I didn't hear about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I challenge anybody to prove me wrong.

Obviously, I don't carry one in the chamber, and I wager that I can draw and fire quicker than some assailant because I practice it often. From my experience, most people just assume they will draw fast but never actually practice.

just my .02

[Thunder71]

I agree morganw, but we're definitely the minority.

[eklipto101]

The main reason I chosed the kahr as my primary carry is, the trigger pull is buttery smooth and when the gun goes off you meant to pull the trigger, it does not goes off accidentally, on the Glock I'm kind of worry, I'll have to have the right holster and make sure it's in tip top shape...and thats the reason I picked the Kahr. Thats my wooden nickle's worth.

[jocko]

morgan, can't argue your point of proving what you said wrong or right, but hand racking a live round in an emergency brings about more issues than one that is in the pipe. but this has been discussed many times on this and other forums and the bottom line is YOU do what you feel is best for YOU. I know how I will carry

No doubt you and light artisan are well in the minority with those beliefs (to many polls been made that shows that) to but again, not like the end of the world for either of you'se either

[Bill K]

At the risk of being melodramatic I might not be typing this if it were not for having one in the chamber.

Bill K.

[jocko]

andI know Bill K's story to, he ain't making it up and IMO he definitely would not behere today either if he tried this hand racking scenario. NOt brag, just a fact. He is to modest to relate the entire story and that is also why a ket tek has a special place in his heart today . It saved his life....

[Thunder71]

True, but nobody knows or will ever know the ratio of how many people have been hurt/killed due to one in the chamber vs not.

In other words...

How many negligent discharges have hurt/killed people vs someone not having time to rack a slide?

Not being sarcastic, it's something I really wonder.

[Bawanna]

I'm a firm believer in not playing quick draw. It is my hope that if there's ever a situation where a gun comes into play I'll see it coming and my gun will already be in my hand. I'm hoping bad guy will be like where the heck did that gun come from and seek a different direction of travel. We know that is unlikely but it's still my hope.

My only big concern is that when an auto, especially small autos jam, its usually loading the chamber. This even in a controlled situation like the range or at home etc. Small autos require a certain finese to sling shot a round. Add adrenaline and sometimes that finese is right out the window.

You certainly won't have time to lock the slide back and use the release lever. I hope you do but most likely you won't.

Whatever works for you works perfect for me. I'll keep a round chambered myself. I have no statistics on accidental or negligent discharges but those would be interesting numbers to view if in fact they were accurate.

[TheTman]

I think for every semi-auto owner that prefers an empty chamber, you'll find 100 (at least) that like one in the pipe ready to go. (I'm one of the 100). Also, were not in Israel, so to heck with the "Israeli" method.

Oh, I wanted to add that I don't keep a round chambered in my home defense shotgun. The sound of a shotgun being racked one of those sounds a bad guy definately doesn't want to hear and can cause them to take off before they have a chance to do any harm.

[jocko]

True, but nobody knows or will ever know the ratio of how many people have been hurt/killed due to one in the chamber vs not.

In other words...

How many negligent discharges have hurt/killed people vs someone not having time to rack a slide?

Not being sarcastic, it's something I really wonder.

kinda sarcastic IMO. no way an unloaded gun is going to harm a person over one in the pipe. just common sense tells u that. statiscs means something if it effects YOU. OTHERWISE one should carry the way he feels good about.

a car in the garage not running is not going to harm anyone like a car running down the highway. one can add that scenario to almost anything he wants.:israel::israel::israel:

I bet more bad guys are killed/injured due to one in the chamber over one not in the chamber..

would one also feel that way with a revolver, . I. e. keeping the next cylinder hole empty in case one pulled the trigger??? or maybe wold one even keep two clinders holes empty. One thatisat reat behind the hammer and the next one empty in case on pulls the trigger accidently.???

[Thunder71]

That's not what I said at all, read what I wrote.


In other words...

How many negligent discharges have hurt/killed people vs someone not having time to rack a slide?

Let me simplify my question further to try and eliminate more confusion/twisted words:

How many people have been shot because they couldn't rack the slide in time to chamber a round?
How many people have been shot because of a negligent discharge?

We're human, nothing can change that - we make mistakes, I don't care who you are. Every single person on this forum is quite capable of a negligent discharge, regardless of how much you think your safety is between your ears and is 100% reliable.

I guess I'm just pretty tired of hearing how I may as well carry a pocket full of rocks or that I have a short club in my holster. I practice how I carry, which is more than I can say for a lot of people with a loaded and chambered gun who don't practice at all (and I'd be willing to bet I'm faster and more accurate as well).

[MW surveyor]

I'm also in the 100 group. CW9 in pocket holster, one in the chamber and ready to go.

That's what works for me. Carry the way you want, and practice the way you carry.

[jocko]

sounds to me like someone just wants to argue. To try to make their point. and I am guessng your point is that you are 2 of 100 who don't carry with one in the pipe so u can't have a neglignt discharge so that makes your theory right. and . in that case ur dead right. How would you advise a revolver carrying person????

See if you can sell this over on the 1911 forum???

[DBP9]

Does anybody leave their car on empty with a can of gas ready to go, just in case you need to go somewehere?

[Bill K]

I take no issue with those who carry sans one in the pipe. It seems logical to me that their chance/probability of having a ND is diminished. I'd rather good citizens carry that way then choose not to carry. I would encourage that they dedicate extra practice and training to drawing and racking the slide. I would also encourage them to research and become proficient in a one handed slide racking. Wearing an extra heavy belt or really stiff leather holster might be necessary so that you can one hand rack using the rear sight. Maybe getting some force on force training would convince one that they're making the right decision... or not? Maybe a piece having a grip and thumb safety would be a better gun choice?

I believe quick draws are important. Quick draws can be practiced and developed without any chance of having a ND. I do most of my AIWB quick draw with an Airsoft Glock 26 using my 26 carry holster. I practice my P3AT and now PM9 pocket draws with snap cap(s).

Keep safe,
Bill K.

[jocko]

ur to kind bill k!!

[Bawanna]

I think we need to clarify discharges also. I consider negligent discharge as being caused by stupid. An accidental discharge is what everyone will experience at one time or another. The difference is that the accidental discharge won't hurt anyone because all the other safety rules would be applied.

Light Artisan is right in that respect. Some of the very best shooter who shoot alot have had accidental discharges. I saw a picture of a power meter that Jeff Cooper shot when he had an accidental discharge. A bunch of his buddies got it and had it bronzed I believe. It happens.

At our dept I discourage loading and unloading of weapons unless they are being cleaned or checked out for some reason. I'd rather they just be put it in a lock box loaded. It's during the loading and unloading process that AD's will happen. We see them all the time at the academy. That's why they have and we have also unloading stations to catch the bullet that wasn't suppose to be there.

If an unloaded chamber works and practice makes one think that it will work then go for it. I'm with Bill K on that. Better to have a gun with an empty chamber than no gun at all. For most that is. I've met a few that I much prefer with no gun at all.

[jocko]

ur also to kind.. lots of people should not be driving a car either but they do. It is what life is all about. No one guarantees that you will be here tomorrow. AD ND car accidents plane crashs, are part of life. Would be nice to not have any of this but it cannot be. If one wants to safety himself to no end, I say GO FOR IT, Just don't try to push that crapola on me. If I am gonna carry it will be loaded( polls have shown this is the vast vast majority of carriers feelings), that is what I bought the fokker for. If the good lord intends for me to have a AD or ND, then it will happen. This fast draw and then hand racking is great in the movies. Ask Jim K if he would be here posting had he had an empty gun.

I knew a fella 40+ years ago that practiced this fast draw crapola with a single action until he was so fast he felt he could do it with live round. Shot himself in the leg soon after that. AD or ND or shear sutpidity, u call it..

If one thinks he is gonna come in a gun forum and try to convince most all that one in the pipe is wrong. he is gonna get the negatives far more than the positives. It is what it is, gun carriers carry their gun LOADED. If one causes a ND or AD ( I personaly don't believe in AD, all AD's are result of ND, IMO. and harms himself, that is his fault, if he harms others, he will pay the price no doubt. again there is no certainly in life, other than death.

I over 40+ years ago was armed robbed in my gun business twice, now I had no doubt that the BG guns had a fokking round in the pipe and to even think of having a gun on me with no round in the pipe and being dumb enough to try to be faster in hand racking PROPERLY I MIGHT ADD over their pulling the trigger is yes STUPID.

But as the great one stated, practice the way u carry and carry the way u practice..

stastics will surely show that AD and ND are going to be higher than one not in the pipe, for over 95% carry one in the pipe, Put 10 million fords opn the highway and stastics will problaby show that fords are involved in more accidents to. Sometimes stastics mean nadda, unless ur one of them..

Ask how many fisherman have stuck a hook in themselves over the year. AD or ND, its gonna happen if u fish alot... I'm still waiting on an answer to this revolver carrying. . Pull the trigger on a revolver and it will go bang, so to be ultra safe that next hole better be empty. Now that fokker is safe as hell and I just took my 5 shot J frame and turned it into a 4 shot.

[Thunder71]

Well I'm not forcing my ways on anyone, nor am I ragging on anyone for their choices. I also never said carrying with one in the pipe was wrong, but it's just funny how a thread can go on and on without problem until that one guy posts 'nope, not me' then everyone comes crashing down with how bad that is.

I asked a simple thought provoking question, was it offensive or something?

I agree, it's possible that someone could die if they don't have one in the chamber.

Can you also at least agree that innocent people have died unnecessarily because one was in the chamber?
If not, you're lying to yourself.

Which way kills more innocent people, we'll never know... I play one card, you play the other - I hope the game of life ends in a tie and we both win.

This isn't me, but this is pretty much how I practice with my XDM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1R2jpi3Qwk&NR=1

[jocko]

U got my vote artisan!!

[Bawanna]

I hope you guys share a room at the Happy Trails nursing home and indoor range at the age of 126. I'll probably be the guy mopping the floors and picking up your brass.

They'll have angels for the bed pans and baths and such.

[Thunder71]

Hahaha, nice. :)

[jocko]

ur to kind!! ol greatone.

[CJB]

I get up at 6:30. Take the Kahr from under my pillow and place it next to my computer. Get ready for work. Last thing - rack one round into the chamber, refill the magazine. Kahr goes in my pocket.

(time passes slowly.....)

I get home at 5 in the early evening. The Kahr rides in my pocket until bed time. At bed time, I remove the magazine, rack the slide, take the round out of the chamber, and stick that round next to the computer. The slide is closed, and I put the loaded magazine back in the Kahr, and it sleeps with me under my pillow.

Repeat.

~~~~

Hell yes, round up the spout at all times, except when under my noggin while I'm sleepin', just in case I get animated and pull the damn trigger in my sleep. If **** goes down, I'll have the round in the chamber before I even think of covering my naked rear end as I investigate.

[Bawanna]

I think I got a new marketing plan for a shooters retirement home. Each morning with your meds you get two boxes of shells (more if requested). Unlimited range time in the same building of course.

Drop dead gorgeous angels to clean your weapons (while you watch, gotta make sure they do it right).

Shooters fully stocked pro shop of course. Everything sold at cost and covered by medicare for it's theraputic qualities.

I think this will fly. Who wants to sign up?

[ltxi]

I get up at 6:30. Take the Kahr from under my pillow and place it next to my computer. Get ready for work. Last thing - rack one round into the chamber, refill the magazine. Kahr goes in my pocket.

(time passes slowly.....)

I get home at 5 in the early evening. The Kahr rides in my pocket until bed time. At bed time, I remove the magazine, rack the slide, take the round out of the chamber, and stick that round next to the computer. The slide is closed, and I put the loaded magazine back in the Kahr, and it sleeps with me under my pillow.

Repeat.

~~~~

Hell yes, round up the spout at all times, except when under my noggin while I'm sleepin', just in case I get animated and pull the damn trigger in my sleep. If **** goes down, I'll have the round in the chamber before I even think of covering my naked rear end as I investigate.

Well now, that's interesting. My personal preference for a defense handgun is, by far, a tuned 1911 and that's what I carry when circumstances permit. But our nightstand hand guns are 3" K-Frames because it has never occurred to me that I could just leave a 1911 in there in Condition 2 or 3. :7:

And to make that observation even worse, the always handy Remington 870 is always left sitting with the chamber empty for the same "half asleep" safety reason. :7::7:

[TheGreatGonzo]

I mentioned to him that if he wants to carry a gun with an empty chamber he should consider carrying a revolver.

Why would anybody carry a modern double-action revolver with an empty cylinder?:confused:

Regarding carrying a round in the chamber in a semi-auto: I agree with many who have stated that it is a personal choice. I won't knock somebody else's choice as long as they can articulate a reason for that choice. Personally, I would never carry without a round in the chamber. Look at the firearms policy for any law enforcement agency in the US and you will most likely find that they specifically require every Officer/Agent carry their firearm chambered and ready to fire. A lot of people like to cite the "Israeli" method. Keep in mind, the Israelis developed that policy when they issued a ragtag variety of cheap auto-pistols, many of which were not safe to carry with a round in the chamber. These days, if you were to stop and check an Israeli operator carrying a Sig/Glock/Browning Hi-Power, you would likely find a round in the chamber, ready to go.

Again, it is a personal choice, just as is the choice of caliber; revolver vs. semi-auto; DA; SA, or DAO/DAK; etc, etc, etc. Hard to belittle somebody just because they choose to carry something a little different than you do.
Gonzo

[jocko]

nice post gonzo. Irasel's are very fond of glocks..

[ltxi]

Why would anybody carry a modern double-action revolver with an empty cylinder?:confused:

Regarding carrying a round in the chamber in a semi-auto: I agree with many who have stated that it is a personal choice. I won't knock somebody else's choice as long as they can articulate a reason for that choice. Personally, I would never carry without a round in the chamber. Look at the firearms policy for any law enforcement agency in the US and you will most likely find that they specifically require every Officer/Agent carry their firearm chambered and ready to fire. A lot of people like to cite the "Israeli" method. Keep in mind, the Israelis developed that policy when they issued a ragtag variety of cheap auto-pistols, many of which were not safe to carry with a round in the chamber. These days, if you were to stop and check an Israeli operator carry a Sig/Glock/Browning Hi-Power, you would likely find a round in the chamber, ready to go.

Again, it is a personal choice, just as is the choice of caliber; revolver vs. semi-auto; DA; SA, or DAO/DAK; etc, etc, etc. Hard to belittle somebody just because they choose to carry something a little different than you do.
Gonzo

Well put.

[Thunder71]

If you don't have one in the pipe you might as well carry a stick or rock or.........

And there it is folks, the most cliché, over used response ever on this topic with nothing of substance as usual.

[jocko]

Most cliche's have a meaniing behind them. My daid always use to tell us kids, "Make all u can and can all u make" to me alot of substance in that cliche, but no doubt you just like to argue, It is well noted.

[Thunder71]

Ahh, I get it - it's OK to state your opinion as long as it is in agreement with everyone else's, otherwise it's arguing.

Got it, thanks for clearing that up.

[Bawanna]

Don't you fellas make me come down there. Happy thoughts.

[jocko]

Ahh, I get it - it's OK to state your opinion as long as it is in agreement with everyone else's, otherwise it's arguing.

Got it, thanks for clearing that up.

finally u understand!!! :laser:

[jocko]

it would be over and down alittle for me bawanna. have no idea about junior!

[Bawanna]

Ahh, I get it - it's OK to state your opinion as long as it is in agreement with everyone else's, otherwise it's arguing.

Got it, thanks for clearing that up.

I've heard this is how it works on some of the other forums. I like to think that isn't the way it is here. It may sometimes appears to be so.

I certainly don't think the choice to carry a loaded chamber or not is worthy of all the attention it's getting here but maybe it's a slow day and we don't have anything else to chat about?

Once again those in both camps, do what works best for you. Theres not enough solid data to emphatically support either method.

Lets all get along and I'm booking that room at the Happy Trails Nursing home and indoor range.

[Thunder71]

For me it's the weather, it was 81 last Sunday and now they are talking snow.

Gotta love Minnesota. :19:

PS
I'm all for that old folks home, where's the sign up sheet? We can play derby cars with our wheelchairs when this is all over.

[Bawanna]

For me it's the weather, it was 81 last Sunday and now they are talking snow.

Gotta love Minnesota. :19:

PS
I'm all for that old folks home, where's the sign up sheet? We can play derby cars with our wheelchairs when this is all over.

81:eek: We seldom see that in mid summer. We're barely out of winter and into the monsoon season. It rained so hard and so long yesterday I was ready to start on the ark.

Another direct hit on the wheelchair guy. :4: I should be real good by 126 for that derby. I think my retirement home idea would fly too.

[Thunder71]

Sounds like I'll have some catching up to do, as usual... The retirement home idea rocks, it could be franchised like Sandal's hotels. :D

[CJB]

Well now, that's interesting. My personal preference for a defense handgun is, by far, a tuned 1911 and that's what I carry when circumstances permit. But our nightstand hand guns are 3" K-Frames because it has never occurred to me that I could just leave a 1911 in there in Condition 2 or 3. :7:

And to make that observation even worse, the always handy Remington 870 is always left sitting with the chamber empty for the same "half asleep" safety reason. :7::7:

Aw... I didn't mention the 1911's and 870's, and AR, and two Hi Powers, and SP101... on account that this was the KAHR forum <smiles>

No seriously, I'm never far from a pistol, shotgun or AR in this house. But, that said, the Kahr PM45 just does it for me. When the poo hits the fan, I dont feel undergunned, its safe and its light, and its handy, and .... it smells nice under my pillow!

[ltxi]

Ok, I'm not going there with this smells nice under the pillow thing. :rolleyes: That's what I have this wife appliance for. But my U&C, 85% of the time, concealed carry gun these days is a PM9 and I consider it, in a Mitch Rosen holster, the best ever for the general purpose in my 50+ years of going armed.

I would/do prefer my faithful, 20 some year custom .45 LW Officers ACP companion, but as I noted to Bawanna it's just too hard to hide in a Speedo even in a butt crack holster.

My :7: revelation comes from my having eight or nine other nice 1911 pattern pistols that could serve well in the nightstand but that I never considered....b/c....my brain is stuck on Condition One and I don't trust that in just waking up if not in jungle mode.

[CJB]

Ok, I'm not going there with this smells nice under the pillow thing. :rolleyes: That's what I have this wife appliance for.


Gawwwwd how lucky can a man be, when his wife slathers on the #9 before bed for him. Dang

[ltxi]

Gawwwwd how lucky can a man be, when his wife slathers on the #9 before bed for him. Dang

You misunderstand....several fluffy pillows, large bed, 18 year younger energetic wife, don't need firearm(s) in bed for nice smelling company. :cool:

[krab]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/i30krab/ush.jpg
Check his holster site and check out the shoulder holsters that hold the gun with the muzzle pointing up, practically in your face.

Ken told me NEVER carry one in the chamber while using these holsters. I have 2 of these for everyday carry, one for my PM-9 and one for my TP45 so the bottom line is I don't carry one in the pipe!! :biggrin1:

[kahrseye]

I didn't read all the replies, so if I'm repeating someone here please forgive me. I like the element of surprise. I don't want a bad guy to know I have a weapon until it's too late for him. If I had to rack my slide to chamber a round, I could easily put him on alert. Another situation I've thought about is this; what if he shot you and wounded you but didn't kill you. And you couldn't rack the slide. Now you're a sitting duck with no way to protect yourself. With one in the chamber all you have to do is aim and pull the trigger. Simple yet effective.

[kahrseye]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/i30krab/ush.jpg
Check his holster site and check out the shoulder holsters that hold the gun with the muzzle pointing up, practically in your face.

Ken told me NEVER carry one in the chamber while using these holsters. I have 2 of these for everyday carry, one for my PM-9 and one for my TP45 so the bottom line is I don't carry one in the pipe!! :biggrin1:

Then I'd get a different holster.

[CJB]

I cant see how thats much worse than carrying in a shoulder holster horizontally, pointing the muzzle at everyone behind you. Or carrying in your front pocket - like I do - having the muzzle aiming right at yer nutz. Or carrying in the front of your pants waist...

There is almost no way out-of-hell that the pistol is gonna fire like that. There is one way in hell it will. And thats because the flames of hell will set off the round in the chamber. Other than that, you're clear to go.