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View Full Version : Another weird one.... PM45



CJB
05-14-2011, 09:44 AM
Here's another weird problem.

I took apart the PM45 for its weekly wipe out - since it gets carried in my pocket daily, all day, except when I sleep (and even then, its under my pillow).

Put it back together, insert the magazine, press the slide release and... fails to chamber the round fully. It picked up the round, put it into the chamber, but the slide stayed back about 1/16 of an inch from being fully forward. Luckily I noticed. I pushed the slide forward. I sprang back on its own - 1/16 inch. WTF?

So... removed the magazine, unchambered the round, inspected it, and tried again with a different cartridge. Same thing.

Ok... do the above one more time. Same thing.

At this point, I took the pistol apart, dropped all three "defective" rounds into the chamber. They slid in easily.

Put the pistol back together, lock the slide open, and press the release with no magazine in it - same thing, slide failing to close that last 1/16 of an inch. Push it forward, it goes into battery, and springs out on its own when you quit pushing.

I tried a good dozen times and it failed about 5 out of that.

Here's what I found was the cause - after much looking.

The button on the front of the recoil spring guide was "just catching" the front of the slide. That part has a bevel on it - for a reason I suspect. The button was hitting "up" toward the barrel side of the opening. I took the gun apart, took the guide out, took the spring off, rolled it on my smooth bench, and it was straight not wobbly. Put it back together - yes both times the outer spring was on there correctly. It worked fine.

Not good enough. Back apart it came and I rotated the spring a little. Back together. Still fine. Repeat... repeat... ditto... until it failed again.
If you get the end of the coil at just the right rotational angle, it puts some weird pressure on the guide and the guide hangs up. I cant say if this would happen for all guns, but on my PM45 it likes that outer spring to have its coil's open end away from the barrel. That is, if the slide is on the bench, resting on its sights, the open end of the coil would be "up". Insert it down... and she'll catch. There's about a 15 degree spot there, where its likely to catch, all the rest is ok, but there's less pressure on the guide when the spring has its coil's end away from the barrel side of things.

Now thats weird. You can see the minor misalignment when slowly racking the slide, and it usually just hits the bevel, and goes home. But that one position... its off the bevel.

I'm wondering if this is a possible cause of some of the "pull trigger on chambered round, but no bang" issues that have not been attributed to trigger bar? I tried, and yes, with it stuck on the button, you can pull the trigger, but a pen in the barrel didn't jump like the striker hit it.

TucsonMTB
05-14-2011, 10:01 AM
Man, CJB! That is weird! No offense, but I am glad it happened to you, who might have a chance at troubleshooting, rather than some poor newbie! :D

My PM40 does not share that behavior, so I can't contribute. Hopefully some of the other PM45 mavens can perform some similar testing.

Best of luck, sir!

Catshooter
05-14-2011, 11:37 AM
Very interesting. Is the cut end of the spring bent, possibly? When something new happens that didn't happen before, I always wonder, "What changed?".


Cat

jocko
05-14-2011, 12:33 PM
I think I would get anew recoil assembly and start allover again trouble shooting the issue. I think thee is two different recoils springs for the pM45, so order the rightr one for sure..

Bawanna
05-14-2011, 12:49 PM
I don't even remember why and don't even think about it but I always install my spring exactly as you describe with the open end up. I must have read it here or in a manual or someplace. I do it subconciously. Some one awhile back had the tip of the spring popping out the front sometimes and I remember the issue went away when the spring was installed as you describe. That might be it now that my memory kicked in a bit. I think the tech at Kahr told them to install the spring that way. I don't think that was a PM45 though, seems like it was one of the others.
I'm glad you did the research and brought this up again, it's worth rehashing and new owners and old can benefit from your efforts.

CJB
05-14-2011, 02:08 PM
Bawanna - it seems to go in easier that way too. Ya know how you gotta fight it a little to get the button to line up from the inside, when trying to compress the springs and get the guide installed? Ya do with with the open end away from the barrel, and somehow its easier.

The spring isn't bent. I also tried "twirling" the spring in its recess in the slide (no rod) and there's no step or catch or evidence of being mis-machined. If I get a chance here today, I want to get over and shoot another 100 rounds thru it, just for confidence sake... but I'm sure it'll be ok.

There have been reports of SIG recoil springs popping thru the front of the slide, but I cant remember if it was related to the way the gap was located.

jocko
05-14-2011, 03:48 PM
I had two kel tecs that the recoil spring ate right thrugh the front of their cheap slides and totaled the slides. They replaced it the first time with a new slide and damn 50 rounds later it came throughthe front again.they had alot of issues atone time, I think that is behind them now but for awhile forum members were finding little nylon bushings to put in the front of that slide where the recoil springs rested. it worked but it was not right..

94zcar
05-14-2011, 11:14 PM
CJB that is interesting I just picked up a CM9 and took it apart for the first time, reassembled it and could not get the slide back on. I noticed that that the end of the recoil spring is sticking out between the slide hole and the end of the guide rod.

After reading this post I decided to try putting the guide spring in different positions and see what happens. The end of the guide rod gets stuck like you described when the open coil is facing opposite the barrel. Mine likes to have the open end closest to the barrel. I don't think this would be a problem while firing the gun ....but maybe there is a chance that open end could get caught between the hole in the slide and the end of the guide rod?

It would be better if Kahr would close the end of the spring up and not have a loose end poking out like that!

CJB
05-15-2011, 07:33 AM
I know just enough about springs to be dangerous.....

The recoil spring is as tight as its ever gonna get, when they made it. After that, it starts going south. It loss of "power" is not linear, and after moderate use, it will retain that same amount of power for a fairly long time, slowly tapering off. This is what has prompted me to say that they make those springs, not as they want them to be, but instead, how they want them to "become" (after some use). Wolf does the same thing BTW, and I've had that very conversation with them. Case in point Browning High Power springs, where the "standard" spring felt strong than a 2lb over standard with only little use. Same with a Commander I just put together. I put a 2lb higher spring in it, but it felt like a LOT more than that. After now... 100 rounds, its feeling more normal.

When the recoil spring loosens, can can not only get shorter, but also wider. If things aren't right, it can actually become a LOT wider. I've got a Browning supplied recoil spring that will not fit in a Browning slide, and actually began to jam the gun up (can we say "Mr. Leather Mallet"?).

Anyway, thats what I know about springs.

jimbog
05-15-2011, 09:53 AM
hi cjb & all i have 800 rds. through my pm45 and i put my spring facing down ,at 3 or 9it sticks out slide.so i guess at 12 or 6 is fine.my 2cts.

Exclr8
05-15-2011, 09:54 PM
Should this little tid bit of info need to go to the "Proper prep of a new kahr" thread?