Just when things were going good....

[CJB]

Bad news tonite after the range session -

The right front rail of my frame is half toasted. I noticed that the slide was getting bright, as it ran into the frame (finish wear). Aparantly something wasn't quite right, and during the course of what.. 700 rounds or so, the frame rail was getting worn down. The first 5/8 inch of it is really chewed up down to a nub. The metal is not smooth, but looks and feels like its been scraping on the slide. It still functions, but Kahr will be getting a call on this.

Ah well

[ripley16]

Can you post a picture?

[CJB]

yah when I get in from work

[CJB]

update -

talked to "the brit sounding guy" - he didn't even discuss things, just issued a fedex label

guess it goes out tomorrow (snif)

and that also means I get to press the officer's into service - ugh the weight. Nice gun but heavy.

[edinero]

CJB,

Good Luck, I think you spoke with Ian at Kahr. I am also here in Florida but down South in Dade county. my CW45 is on its way back from factory for the second time since purchase so I know the feeling of letting it leave your hands.

[gb6491]

Bad news tonite after the range session -

The right front rail of my frame is half toasted. I noticed that the slide was getting bright, as it ran into the frame (finish wear). Aparantly something wasn't quite right, and during the course of what.. 700 rounds or so, the frame rail was getting worn down. The first 5/8 inch of it is really chewed up down to a nub. The metal is not smooth, but looks and feels like its been scraping on the slide. It still functions, but Kahr will be getting a call on this.

Ah well

Can you post a picture?
+1 on the photo request. I'm interested in seeing how much damage was done to the dust cover. Looking at my CW45, it would seem that seem that some poly would would be shaved off if that rail is being worn down to a nub. Is that happening? If so, is it enough to expose the insert?
http://i52.tinypic.com/16i7g4p.jpg
Regards,
Greg

[jocko]

wow thats a first. ur gonna get a new frame out of this which will mean shipping it toa ffl dealer to re register as a new gun. They cannot dupicate the serialnumber and just destroy your old frame. . The serial number dies with the gun it was originally made for. Something had to be realy out of line for that to happen to. surpsied it did not effect reliability either. a shame but lkahr will take care of it. Not to alibi for kahr on this but I am sure this is something would not show up until rounds down range started to do it damage. Those rails are a one peace steel plate inbedded in the polymer during mold process. No doubt it was put in the mold incorrectly.

[WilliamG]

Definitely wanting to see pictures!

[CJB]

Not sure if the marks on the slide have anything to do with it. Also, remember my button holding the slide open? Maybe that was a bad sign.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P5186058.jpg

It looks like the slide is jumping the rail on the right side. I'm giving it only light pressure, not nearly as much as it would have in recoil!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P5186062.jpg

Hard to tell the amount of wear in the picture - the lens has a lot of distortion in super-macro mode. Trust me - you can "feel" the fall off, like a step. The right side has always had more plastic/less rail than the left side... but I didn't think much of it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P5186060.jpg

This is the best shot I could get of the chewed up part of the rail. Something is not quite kosher here. The pistol still fires and cycles, but I don't think I'd get another 200 shots out of it with the wear as it is - based on what 650-750 rounds through it already? What got me thinking was the little silver specs in the frame hood area, always in the lube that collected there. I thought they were from the recoil spring, until some of them got embedded in the plastic at the rail and hood. I'd never really noticed the wear before last nite.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P5186061.jpg

[CJB]

Jocko, unless its Kahr's policy, the USA and Florida have no prohibition of a replacement - so maybe I'll be able get something direct. If not - I've got a $15 transfer guy that will help me out.

[Bawanna]

Dang, I never seen one remotely close to like that. It's BAD!. It wouldn't get another single round thru it in my hand I can tell you that.
Definitely a new frame in your future and maybe a slide too looking at the wear on the business end.

Wowza. That's BAD.

[CJB]

I think... and its hard to see, and hard to photograph... but when you look straight down into the front of the frame, the rails dont look like this - - they look like this / \ (well not that extreme). Its like they were not bent as they oughta be, or somehow sprung.

I have full confidence that Kahr will do it right.

QUESTION:
Do I send them the whole entire kit I got? Box, 2mags, gun, lock, etc? Or just the gun. I forgot to ask Ian.

[Bawanna]

I'd send the whole kit and kaboodle. I know they like the box to keep stuff together. I'd send the whole deal.

Wonder if the whole deal was out of line from the get go and it just wore like that. Almost had to be the case. No way you could bend it or move those rails in any way. Had to be cast in the tupperware wrong somehow.

[CJB]

Thats what I'm thinking too.

Hope they dont pitch a fit that I smoothed out the bottom of the magazine base plates.

[jocko]

all i can tell u is that kahr told me a few years back that the serial number lives ad dies with the gun made. Florida has nothing to do with it, ia msure this is probalby federal mandate. would seem to me alot easier to just destroy the gun and restamp a new one with the same numbers. I am just the messenger here.. I would loike to know when allis said anddone if what I said is b. s or not to...I haeto keep repeating myself on somethng that is indeed wrong.

[gb6491]

CJB,
I'm sorry to see that damage on your pistol, but thanks for the excellent photos. They detail the problem very well and answered my questions in regards to the poly in the tunnel. Here's hoping for a quick turnaround from Kahr.
Regards,
Greg

[CJB]

all i can tell u is that kahr told me a few years back that the serial number lives ad dies with the gun made. Florida has nothing to do with it, ia msure this is probalby federal mandate.

Yes, the serial number dies (or gets a suffix).

No, you can receive a replaced gun back under federal law - I've done it with Federal Ordnance (1911 frames), HK several times, and Ruger. Its a no sweat thing. Some states and locales do have ordinances against it though - I got that from Ian this morning.

Yes, I'll keep the updates coming.

[WilliamG]

Those pictures are crazy. And potentially dangerous I'd imagine. No question, don't fire that ever again.

[CJB]

I dont think its all "that" dangerous... and I believe its been slowly wearing away bit by bit. Some day, we'd have a slide held on by plastic rather than metal... it would probably jam, and that would be that. Dangerous would be when the locking lugs sheared.

Ok... it could be dangerous if needed to be used in a self defense situation, that I'll admit!

Its in the hands of FedEx as we speak. Mother ship should receive it tomorrow.

[CarlCyrus]

Looks like that rail is cracked.

Carl

[CJB]

The right one?

[Chowser]

Manufacturers are allowed to ship it directly back to you and you can ship it directly back to them (albit at overnight rates from ups or fedex). When Glock had their frame "upgrade" (or recall as we call it in the rest of the world), they would ship your gun back to you with the upgraded frame with a 1 added to the front of the serial number.

Well, back then, they actually only shipped the frame since that was the recalled part, but in the US the frame is considered the gun.

[garyb]

This is a very disappointing problem to see. If it were my gun, I'd end up being just as warped, cracked and worn over this problem as the gun. So as a fellow Kahr owner I share your angst. I'm very sorry you are experiencing this and I hope it gets straightened out for you. Please let us know how they treat you from Kahr. I hope they do you right. Thanks for sharing the informational photos with us.

[CJB]

They got it this morning!

I dunno what they'll do, but I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna keep calm, not rant and rave. I showed y'all the problem, and now Kahr has it. I wanna let them handle it, and I'm sure they'll do just fine. If they gotta replace the frame - I sorta wish I had my top end on it, but... if they do that, I'm likely to get a whole new pistol. Hell, for all I know its not a big issue and they'll just send it back.

(added later)

At my friends urging, I went net-shopping for a Glock 36. Then I ran into pages and pages of Glock problems. Frame recalls, slide, barrel and ejector "upgrades" (defects), recoil spring defects, frame rail defects, you name it. They have not been stellar performers, but somehow they get that "Legendary Glock reliability" thing. Like the Sig "To hell and back reliability". BS. They all have problems. I'll stick with Kahr, and if I need something more, I'll buy another Kahr.

[jocko]

now ur making alot of sense CJB. glock people live and die by them Sig people live kand die by them. TO HELL AND BACK RELIABILITY was a great add slogan, but that is all. Both great guns WHEN THEY DO AS TOLD, Same for kahrs top. NOBODY likes a lemon gun, no more than a lemon kahr. OW i DO LOVE LEMOPNADE, SO the gun makers needs to separate the two..

[CJB]

Yah an' anyway if I wanted something as BIG and HEAVY as the (miniature...?) Glock 36, I'd get something a little smaller and lighter - the CW45

[CJB]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/P5186062b.jpg

Got looking at this photograph some more....

Two things I just noticed.

First - see how the recoil spring guide "button" has been smacking the slide? There's a crescent shaped silver mark there, on the barrel side of the recoil spring guide opening. Makes me go hmmm....because the flared part of the button would wear on the edge of the hole. To leave a mark like that, the rear face of the button would have to smack there - which it was, as I caught it doing so, and failing occasionally to go into battery, unless I rotated the recoil spring "just so" to prevent it.

Next - look at the right side slide "rail" cutout. Compare it to the left. See that silver mark there on the right side? Why is it there? I think its because material is being chewed up, spit out, on that side right there. Sigh. You can also see a few scrape dings in the plastic, where stuff was embedded.

I'm glad nobody has seen this before, makes me think its not likely to happen again! Something was amiss for sure.

[CJB]

What to expect? When your pistol goes to the mothership....

Does Kahr send an email, some sort of confirmation that things are in the works, or do you just get a package from FedEx one day?

[Native]

After dropping my gun off at FedEx, the next indication of progress was a call from FedEx making sure someone of age would be home to accept the returned gun. Your results may vary.

[TucsonMTB]

Ditto! No feedback, just a call from FedEx about the planned package delivery upon return.

[CJB]

Thats good I guess (that they call).

I called, spoke to Ian today, he said - in the queue, expected to be worked on Tuesday, or even today, depending on how they were doing.

[TheTman]

Hi CJB, I had to send my CW45 back, and it looks like they did quite a bit of work on it, but they got it back to me in exactly 7 days. I hope you get the same fast service. Just thought I'd share, thought you might feel better knowing that they do have a pretty quick turnaround.

[CJB]

I'm going to remain hopeful for "end of next week".

[wyntrout]

You'll probably get a new gun. The frame is a given and then there's the slide with the wear it got with the defective frame.
Kahr will have to send it back through an FFL dealer like a new gun. They'll give you a letter explaining that they took possession of the original serial number and gave you a new one. Make copies for your own protection. Been there, done that with "FrankenBoomer", my PM45. It's great now, but went back FOUR times at Kahr's expense. One trip(#3) was to replace the replacement slide from the second trip because the "engraving" was extremely light and hardly visible on the left side(DLC). Trip #4 was to find out why it was destroying magazines. They were able to duplicate that and could only stop the damage with a new frame. After that trip, I'm not sure if there were any original parts left in/on the gun, but it works fine now... super easy to shoot... no longer requiring a "death grip" to shoot it without malfunction.
I hope you get it soon and experience nothing but joy shooting it. I love mine!

Wynn:)

[CJB]

I got a call from Jay today, besides sounding like youngster - he said - replacement frame, replacement slide, replacement recoil spring/assembly. The rest, he said, is my old parts - barrel, etc.

And, he said its going through an FFL, which prompted me to ask if that was law or Kahr policy. He just said they always send through FFL on frame replacement.

So I called my FFL, who is a dufus. He was claiming its technically illegal for me to send a pistol back to the manufacturer. WTF? He claims long gun only. Obviously, he's got his head up his butt.

So I called ATF field office. They say, according to 478.147 US code, if the firearm did not need a 4473 to send it to the manufacturer, then non is required to receive it back, even if it were replaced, as long as its the same kind and type of firearm. The lady was very nice on the phone (ATF nice??????) and asked if I had a Glock, as they were getting a lot of calls from Glock owners on the same subject. I just said no, it was another make. She also said that to her knowledge, only a few states had further restrictions, and that I should contact "local authorities" to find those out. Florida has no restriction.

So, I guess its a Kahr thing, not a federal thing.

My FFL called be back, spoke to Jay, and said I should have pistol in hand in a few days, possibly on Friday. Thats good news.

Jay also said they put 100 rounds through the pistol, and I should have minimal break-in. Also good news!

[RogerP9fan]

Congrats bud, hope it's running fine when u get it.

[jocko]

what has a form 4473 to do with sending a firearm back? I sure have alot of questions concerning that phone call but I will keep the rest to myself. being a gun dealer for over 40 years and having numerrous ATF in house audits, I had dealing with some ATF agents that definitley was not up on the firearms regulations.

[CJB]

It has to do with "a transfer". All that crap with ATF is centered around transfers. This gets transferred to that, etc etc. The law says if you didn't need to make a transfer in the first place, then the manufacturer can replace the firearm with the same kind and type, and not require another "transfer" to occur. Go check the statute they quoted, its not too unclear.

[jocko]

I understand that but when a gun is sent back as a replacement with a different serial number then I would think their has to be a tracking record to a bona fide ffl dealer. I had 3 calls in my 40 yeas of fireamrs business where the ATF was trying to track down a certain gun , that was used in a crime, they had to start first with the maker, and then to the distributor (if one) and then to the ffl dealer, and he damn well better have a record (4473) of who he sold that gun to , and then they would proceed to the ownerr on the form 4473 to see where that gun went, and that is normally when tracking things get lost as no records are required to be kept by law. Because kahr sends me a new serial numbered gun through the mail directly to my house would not be a bonafide record in accordance with form 4473 rules. Just very strange. Ruger follows the same policy as kahr does, so for me anyhow something is telling them that it needs to go to a bona fide ffl dealer first. I am wondering if that "same kind and type" is still thinkkng that the serial number is the same .

I know when kel tec replaced a new firearm, they just restamped the alloy frame iwth the old serial umber and sent the owner the gun back, basically a new gun with the same number, I have been told by kahr and ruger that the serial number of a gun lives and dies with that exact gun and cannot be transferred over to a new frame, which IMO makes no sense as long as the gun company destroys the old frame. So is kel tek breaking the laws in what they have been doing?? I don''t know, but I had two new complete guns sent to me by kel teck to replace my defective ones and they both came directly to my home with the same serial numbers that was on the original guns. Must be some loopholes somewhere, that I am missing.

[Bawanna]

That's the way I 've always understood it too. New serial number means a whole new ball game.

I was hoping for CJB's sake it wasn't the case as he clearly thought it was different and mentioned getting replacements before.

There's alot of strange hard to understand rules out there for sure.

[CJB]

H&K replaced a P9s to me twice, the serial number of the last one... 45045 (in case somebody has it). It was 45acp. I have no idea what the original serial number was, I think it was only 4 digits though.

Ruger replaced a Super Blackhawk .44mag to me, when the frame around the recoil plate (where the firing pin goes) cracked, and the frame was fubar. Right back to me.

Federal Ornance - maker of some gawdawful alloy 1911 frames called "Ranger", replaced two of them to me, both still in my possession.

Just sayin'.... and Glock has done those frames all over the place since what 2006? They're still mopping that up.

Its a moot point. Kahr's policy, based on whats good for Kahr, is send through an FFL. I can see their wanting to do that.

§ 478.147 Return of firearm.

A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. See §478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic.

§478.124(a) Firearms transaction record in lieu of record of receipt and disposition.

(a) A licensed dealer acquiring firearms after August 1, 1988 and contemplating the disposition of not more than 50 firearms within a succeeding 12-month period to licensees or nonlicensees may maintain a record of the acquisition and disposition of such firearms on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473(LV), Part I or II, in lieu of the records prescribed by 478.125. Such 12-month period shall commence from the date the licensed dealer first records the purchase or other acuisition of a firearm on Form 4473(LV) pursuant to this section. A licensed dealer who maintains records pursuant to this section, but whose firearms dispositions exceed 50 firearms within such 12-month period, shall make and maintain the acquisition and disposition records required by 478.125 with respect to each firearm exceeding 50.

I put that last part in there, since it was referenced in the part about "same type and kind".


Again, its a moot point, and my own licensed dealer says - "Why they going thru me?".

Jocko... I was an FFL holder from '86 to '97. We got asked for records... maybe three or four times too. We had one search that was actually in our books, but I dont remember what they said about it. Of better importance was ATF's total botching trying to catch a guy legally buying many AK, UZI and AR's. They had the white van out there... the guy(s) came in for the pickup - parked right next to the ATF van. We got giddy with excitement. They packed all the stuff in the back of the car, and in its trunk - I think it was like 10 AR's and 10 UZI pistols, and drove away. About an hour later, ATF came in and asked "I guess they're not coming... have they called?". Yah I told them about that car next to their van... jeeze what a bunch of keystone kops.

My relations with them were ok, got cited a few times for black powder magazine not being within so many feet of fire extinguisher and/or egress. I dont even know if they still have those rules in place. It was a job, a business... I did it, made a crapload of money, bought a house, and moved on.

This part of the discussion should probably move on too Jocko. I think we've flogged the horse enough. We dont have to agree, I loves ya anyways (for all you do here, including for me!). I'd rather disagree with a friend than make an enemy.

And with that!!!! With any luck I'll be PM45'ved again tomorrow evening.!!!!!!!!