View Full Version : Why do my spent casings look like this?
These are out of my new PM40, about 210 rounds out of it. I ran 150 rounds through it tonight and most of them looked like this when the came out.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_gQYDQ9VYmAo/TdSChS5XKmI/AAAAAAAAdIs/T3jf9wYgwSE/s800/IMG_0498.JPG
I also broke a follower in one of the mags. :(
crazymailman
05-18-2011, 09:59 PM
Must be something about the 40. The K40 I had beat them up worse than that:eek:
TucsonMTB
05-19-2011, 12:10 AM
The cause is a mystery but, my PM40 also did that for the first few hundred rounds. The last few range session with at least 500 rounds fired, the cases no longer look beat up. Maybe I have just stopped noticing, but I don't think so. I predict a behavior improvement in your near future, depending on how much shooting time you are able to spend.
By the way, it sounds like your PM40 is otherwise meeting your expectations. Congratulations!
I'm a little disappointed in the broken follower. The fact that it is only a problem when loading the first two rounds is good but I just don't think is should even be an issue. It's not like this is a cheap gun. I should be able to get another 200-300 rounds down range in the next few weeks.
It's been a while since I've owed something other than a XD and I haven't had any problems out of either of them. Overall I'm pretty happy with it I guess. It's super easy to conceal.
TucsonMTB
05-19-2011, 12:56 AM
I'm a little disappointed in the broken follower. The fact that it is only a problem when loading the first two rounds is good but I just don't think is should even be an issue. It's not like this is a cheap gun. I should be able to get another 200-300 rounds down range in the next few weeks.
It's been a while since I've owed something other than a XD and I haven't had any problems out of either of them. Overall I'm pretty happy with it I guess. It's super easy to conceal.
Give Kahr a call. I had one break myself. They were quick to send a replacement at no cost to me. :D
The cases look like that because its a Kahr and thats what the manual says they do to the cases! I can tell ya... the manual is correct when it comes to 45acp's. They get dented all to prunes.
Look at yer primers... weird indentations, strange indentations... typical Kahr. They work!
jocko
05-19-2011, 06:13 AM
kahr will replace ur follower, just call them, why it happens as often in the 40 cals is a mystery. If it was my 40 cal. I would even order a couple extras to have on hand.
joeyvco
05-19-2011, 09:10 AM
exactly as CJB said, my CW 45 pounds em hard ! I noticed that right off the bat @ the range . . . . then consulted the WHOLE manual, & it states right in it that this will happen, no worries. I do wonder how it affects reloading those cases though ?
jocko
05-19-2011, 10:27 AM
Indeed it is amazing what one can learn from read the manual!!
The cut out behind the ejection port - started on the Gold Cup National Match .45 - and now seemingly standard on all 1911's, was put there to prevent cases from hitting the edge of the port and being made hard to reload. THATS because at low speed, the cases would come back and smack the port. At regular speed, even with a military sized original spec port - cases come out fine on a 1911.
That said - all the cases I've seen from my PM45 would easily be reloadable, and I've got as many as I could grab, just for that purpose.
No troubles reloading them especially the brass cases which are more maliable than the nickel cases which are a bit more brittle. Just try not to overwork the flaring of the cases after you resize them and all should be fairly routine. I have reloaded some case 5-6 times with no problems at all.
garyb
05-19-2011, 04:43 PM
Your 40cal spent cases seem pretty normal to me and they reshape back to normal just fine in the reloader. It confirms the same mild distortion in your owners manual, as others have expressed. I wouldn't give the case distortion issue a second thought as long as your PM40 is eating ammo without FTE's or FTF's. It sounds like a new gun that is breaking in just fine. Keep shooting her.
I am confident Kahr will take care of your follower problem and although it's a nuisance, not to worry. Minor set back that will get straightened out and could simply be a manufacturing flaw. I have not experienced this with my PM40 yet.
I hope your 40 keeps working for you. I have had nothing but 100% satisfaction from mine. It cycles everything I feed it, including a wide variation of reloads and carry ammo. It is sincerely more and more a pleasure to shoot every time I go to the range; is proving to be an amazingly reliable and accurate little gun; and a pleasure to carry.
Bawanna
05-19-2011, 05:04 PM
I've reloaded all the 45's that have gone thru my PM45 without issue. Well cept for the ones I ran over with my wheel chair. Theres a few lost to that but little I can do to avoid that.
They get tweaked or out of round but not bad enough to hinder the trip into the resizeing die.
Kahr is sending me a new follower. I fixed the broken one with some Rapidfix today at work just to see if it would hold. I went to the range and shot a box of 50 through it and it's still good. The casings don't seem to look as beat up as the first ones did. Thanks for all the info.
TucsonMTB
05-21-2011, 05:36 PM
Kahr is sending me a new follower. I fixed the broken one with some Rapidfix today at work just to see if it would hold. I went to the range and shot a box of 50 through it and it's still good. The casings don't seem to look as beat up as the first ones did. Thanks for all the info.
While you're feeling good about your progress, let me add that today I examined some of my spent Winchester Ranger .40 S&W cases as a fellow club member who reloads what scooping them up. They looked nearly perfect, so you can probably expect yours to continue to improve as your pistol wears in. Amazing. I mechanical device that actually gets better with use rather than wearing out. I like it. :D
I got my new follower from Kahr today. I guess that means I need to go to the range tomorrow.
MikeyKahr
05-23-2011, 10:05 PM
I got my new follower from Kahr today. I guess that means I need to go to the range tomorrow.
Some things in this world are obvious. This is one.
newkahrowner
05-23-2011, 10:11 PM
Yeah but it sounds to me that you kind of dont want to go to the range lol:d
TucsonMTB
05-23-2011, 11:20 PM
I got my new follower from Kahr today. I guess that means I need to go to the range tomorrow.
It's a tough job, but someone has to do it. I'm sure you are equal to the task! :D
Have fun and tell us how it goes, we'll be here.
I'm gonna go after work. I have to meet a guy to look a 10/22 then to the range.
Put 50 down range tonight with no problems and I'm getting a better feel for it. On a side note I got a 10/22 also.
TucsonMTB
05-24-2011, 11:23 PM
Put 50 down range tonight with no problems and I'm getting a better feel for it. On a side note I got a 10/22 also.
Now that is good news! Life is good. :D
Congratulations! on the new addition to the family.
Been taking this thing to the range weekly, if not more than that. No real problems other than it won't shoot the steel cased ammo. Not really a big deal as I just bought a box to see if it would shoot it. Other than that little experiment it's been smooth sailing.
TucsonMTB
06-21-2011, 12:50 AM
Been taking this thing to the range weekly, if not more than that. No real problems other than it won't shoot the steel cased ammo. Not really a big deal as I just bought a box to see if it would shoot it. Other than that little experiment it's been smooth sailing.
Yeah, other than Soviet Bloc pistols, most will not shoot steel-cased ammo.
As I understand it, steel cases do not return to their original shape after the deformation of firing. Apparently, this causes many pistols (not just Kahrs) to fail to extract and can even break the extractor claw on pistols not designed to shoot steel cases. Not good. :eek:
I've been to the range a few time with the pm40. Tonight at the range it broke another follower, the replacement one. :( I'm starting to loose faith in it. This is the most expensive pistol I have and it's no where near reliable enough to trust to carry. It's gonna be looking for a new home soon I think.
TucsonMTB
07-22-2011, 09:52 PM
I've been to the range a few time with the pm40. Tonight at the range it broke another follower, the replacement one. :( I'm starting to loose faith in it. This is the most expensive pistol I have and it's no where near reliable enough to trust to carry. It's gonna be looking for a new home soon I think.
Yeah, my first PM40 was like that. It took a trip back to Kahr and about 400 rounds before it settled in. Runs perfectly now and I have some spare followers.
It seems to be luck of the draw. My second PM40 (black) has been flawless from day one, except for (wait for it . . . yeah) a broken follower early on. Oddly, none of the broken followers have caused a stoppage . . . a good thing.
When you call Kahr, see if they will relent on their policy of only sending what has broken and send you a spare or two. I was lucky enough to buy some cheap, but would not be happy otherwise.
Mine is not running good, it's not feeding the 3rd round in the mag. I've never had a gun this finicky and I've had more than one or two. Even as much as I want to like this gun I'm pretty sure this will be my last Kahr.
TucsonMTB
07-22-2011, 10:34 PM
Mine is not running good, it's not feeding the 3rd round in the mag. I've never had a gun this finicky and I've had more than one or two. Even as much as I want to like this gun I'm pretty sure this will be my last Kahr.
The third round failure is an easy fix. It involves the magazine follower again . . . it is catching on the magazine catch (no pun intended). A little filing or sanding on the plastic follower will eliminate the interference. Clearances are awfully tight in these little guns, sorry.
Here's a link to this fix and some others you probably don't need: http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1612&page=2 The post you especially need to read is dated 03-20-2010, 08:30 AM.
Here's hoping this helps . . . otherwise, someone else will probably be getting a bargain at your expense. That would not be cool.
For the price I paid I won't loose any $$ but it's not really about that. I got the gun for one reason and that is to carry it. That is only thing it needs to be good at. I don't shoot it nearly as much as my Glock or XD because its not a range toy. It needs to fire every time you pull the trigger. If Glock and Springfield can build one that shoots every time I don't see why Kahr can't. Maybe Kahr will come through with a whole new mag.
TucsonMTB
07-22-2011, 11:12 PM
Maybe Kahr will come through with a whole new mag.
Worth asking certainly, but if they do, it won't necessarily help. You need a little more clearance between the follower and catch. Replacing the catch might work too, but sanding or filing some clearance into the side of the follower seems to work reliably for most people, including me. :)
Worth asking certainly, but if they do, it won't necessarily help. You need a little more clearance between the follower and catch. Replacing the catch might work too, but sanding or filing some clearance into the side of the follower seems to work reliably for most people, including me. :)
The point is I shouldn't have to work on it. It was a brand new gun when I left the gun shop with it. I did the break in, it broke. I got a new part for it and it's broke. I'm noticing a trend.
TucsonMTB
07-22-2011, 11:35 PM
The point is I shouldn't have to work on it. It was a brand new gun when I left the gun shop with it. I did the break in, it broke. I got a new part for it and it's broke. I'm noticing a trend.
Okay . . . the other option is to just call Kahr customer service and get them to help. My suggestion was aimed at getting your pistol working as quickly as possible. Kahr would probably be happier to just solve your problem for you themselves without my input, so go for it.
Best of luck!
It's going back to Kahr. I stopped by gun shop that I got it at and he said he would send it back.
TucsonMTB
07-23-2011, 03:20 PM
Cool! Hopefully, your gun shop recognizes the value of including a clear, written description of the problem with the returned pistol.
Usually, Kahr will turn around warranty repairs in about a week.
Best of luck!
Got my gun back today after work. Which works out good because we are going to the range after work tomorrow. Should be able to put plenty of rounds down range.
tomwalshco
08-11-2011, 05:18 AM
Casing is getting pinched by the slide on the way out. Ejector might be beat up a little. Steel casings can mis-shape them.
As far as broken followers - my opinion - if a hole is drilled in the polymer follower to put in a hunk of metal, it's going to weaken the polymer at that point. Coupled with the more violent vibration of the 40 S&W round and bingo, splitsville.
Steel or aluminum followers like in a 1911 mag would be a solution, but added cost. Jeez, those things are expensive enough already. Because the feed ramps are angled - another engineering nightmare.
pappy42
08-11-2011, 09:53 AM
I don't understand the reluctance of any Kahr owner to send a malfunctioning Kahr pistol back to the factory. The pistol should function properly right out of the box.
Unless one is a gunsmith or Kahr trained armorer; it is not sound thinking to modify things on the pistol to get them to function.
No offense to tinkerers; but until you've been served with a court order to list all of your assets and been involved in a civil suit for wrongful death because of your actions; please don't flame me.
I ha no problem sending it in for repairs. My problem is that it shouldn't have needed it. On a side not I saw a guy selling a pm40 with metal followers in his mags. Said he got them when he sent it to the kahr custom shop.
tomwalshco
08-11-2011, 03:14 PM
I don't understand the reluctance of any Kahr owner to send a malfunctioning Kahr pistol back to the factory. The pistol should function properly right out of the box.
Unless one is a gunsmith or Kahr trained armorer; it is not sound thinking to modify things on the pistol to get them to function.
No offense to tinkerers; but until you've been served with a court order to list all of your assets and been involved in a civil suit for wrongful death because of your actions; please don't flame me.
I'll tell you why - $50-$75 shipping costs for a repair that should be no cost is a PITA. I had one that was obviously defective and they fought me tooth and nail over picking up the ship fees. I caved and was pissed. Love the guns, but it left a sour taste in my mouth.
3-4 calls and sent hi-res pics of the issue and they wouldn't budge. Those who say just call them up and they'll take care of it might be mistaken about how accommodating they really are on warranty issues.....
Have an ATI compact 1911 where the thumb safety wouldn't hold. Sent them a MOV file of what it was doing and they sent me a shipping call tag that day. That's the way it's supposed to work. Could have fixed it myself with a $15 thumb safety from Brownell's, but they insisted I send it in on their dime - and I did.
pappy42
08-11-2011, 03:44 PM
I'll tell you why - $50-$75 shipping costs for a repair that should be no cost is a PITA. I had one that was obviously defective and they fought me tooth and nail over picking up the ship fees. I caved and was pissed. Love the guns, but it left a sour taste in my mouth.
3-4 calls and sent hi-res pics of the issue and they wouldn't budge. Those who say just call them up and they'll take care of it might be mistaken about how accommodating they really are on warranty issues.....
Have an ATI compact 1911 where the thumb safety wouldn't hold. Sent them a MOV file of what it was doing and they sent me a shipping call tag that day. That's the way it's supposed to work. Could have fixed it myself with a $15 thumb safety from Brownell's, but they insisted I send it in on their dime - and I did.
I was confronted by a similiar situation; but Kahr sent me a call tag, and shipped back to me at no cost to me. I don't know what the difference in the circumstaces were; but that's my experience.
Even at $50-75; I don't see the savings vs the risk.
Scimmia
08-11-2011, 04:02 PM
No offense to tinkerers; but until you've been served with a court order to list all of your assets and been involved in a civil suit for wrongful death because of your actions; please don't flame me.
Even at $50-75; I don't see the savings vs the risk.
What in the world happened to you that gave you these opinions? What is the "risk" you speak of in modifying the follower?
I strongly disagree with you that only gunsmiths or Kahr trained armorers are able to understand how a pistol works. I'm not a factory trained auto mechanic, either, but nobody but myself has ever worked on my car, including a transmission rebuild. Formal training isn't required for competency, and does not always mean someone is competent if they've received it.
jocko
08-11-2011, 04:13 PM
to many scenario's . if ur not a tinkerer and have issues, send the damn gun back, if it is minor like we have seen with stuck followers, do it at home and forget about it. that will never get you any court order, no way.
U don't have to shoot anyone to get a court order asking you to list your assets. evidently you have not went through a DIVORCE..
again IMO to many scenarios..
tomwalshco
08-11-2011, 04:29 PM
pappy, if you bought a new flat screen and the speakers shot craps in the 1st 30 days and you had to pay an extra $75 to get it to work like it was supposed to from the beginning - you'd be pissed, too. And it's in the shop for 2-4 weeks and you had to watch your Pay per View on a 13" Aiwa...
Just left the range. Broke another follower in the 5 round mag and jams some times after the 3 round when using the 6 round. I should have bought a kel tec. :(
tomwalshco
08-11-2011, 05:38 PM
Don't think they make a 40 anymore. The one they used to make (P40) felt like a cherry bomb going off in your hand. There's always a Glock 27. Kinda fat....double stack.
Rotorflyr
08-11-2011, 05:44 PM
Or if you "need" thin, the Walther PPS (which has been reported to be problematic in .40 as well), or the Walther P99c which isn't thin but not as fat as a glock.
jocko
08-11-2011, 05:52 PM
thats why they dropped the 40 cal, it would not hold up. I can understand jta frustrations, best thing for him to do is peddle it and find one that please him. If he set his standards as low and the kel tec line then surely he can find a gun that will please him. I owned 3 kel tec and I had to send them back a total of 17 times, so trust me, IMO u don't want a kel tec. This is a gun that kel tec even answers in their FAQ, that 6000 rounds is about the life of a kel tec.
I have no answers as to why kahrs followers break like they do and why some of their magazines split out the back like they do. evidently they don't either. I have a hard time believing the magazine maker is putting out poor quality magazines. Notice they never break in the welds, so what is causing it???
I have in my 32,000+ round sout of my PM9 had two cracked followers and they never gave an issue even until I took my magazines aprt to clean and check them, and then only did the broken peace fall out. I have never had a 9mm maga go bad in my PM9 or MK9 but I did have in less then 100 rounds my P380 magazine split in the back like most . It was replaced and never acted up again. That would tell me normally that maytbe I got a bad magazine but again why. The magazine should not be under any stresses to cause such splitting. These are stainless magazines, not cheap made IMO.
I am sure you will never get the truth from kahr on this either, so IMO if ur pissed with your kahr, p[eddle the sucker and move on, To me not worth the frustration. not like u lost your wife or kid, althogh my first wife was no loss!!! Lot sof good Other guns out there. Broken followers and split magazines to me is one area that one should not have to be checking and rechecking all the time. Just my 2 cents, and I lovemy kahrs, but I am not married to them..
Don't think they make a 40 anymore. The one they used to make (P40) felt like a cherry bomb going off in your hand. There's always a Glock 27. Kinda fat....double stack.
That was a joke. I wanted a nice carry gun so I spent the money to get a good one. I did my part but Kahr has let me down. As much as I want to like this gun it seems to be fighting me. At this point I would feel bad selling it to somebody else. I'll see what Kahr says when I call them in the morning. The range trip wasn't a total loss. The Glock ran like champ. :cool:
tomwalshco
08-11-2011, 06:19 PM
The Glock ran like champ. :cool:
They always do. If they ever get around to making a thin, single stack 9, I'll get in line ASAP. Have a single stack G36 .45 and love it. A little heavy for summer carry, though.
mr surveyor
08-11-2011, 06:30 PM
although a good bit larger (which is obviously better for the 40 S&W), the Sig P239 is an excellent, well made, reliable single stack pistol.....if you just absolutely have to have a 40. Otherwise, the 9mm Kahrs seem to be much less prone to have mag follower problems....or any other problems for that matter.
I don't think the modern manufacturers have quite yet perfected the small .380's or .40's to the degree of the 9mm's yet. The power to weight ratios of these calibers seem to be a bit of a mystery for most makers.
As for Kel-Tec....yep, they made several P40's, and even a few P357(.357 Sig) in very small quantities, and learned very early on that the power to weight ratio (considering the lightweight materials used) just would not stand the test of time.
I figure if you're gonna buy a .380 acp or a .40 S&W in a sub-compact model, buy steel.
JMO
surv
They always do. If they ever get around to making a thin, single stack 9, I'll get in line ASAP.
X2
That or a single stack XD. I've got a ton of rounds down range with the xd and it's like the Glock, fires every time. I've been carrying the Glock so at this point I don't really need the Kahr.
jocko
08-11-2011, 07:14 PM
That was a joke. I wanted a nice carry gun so I spent the money to get a good one. I did my part but Kahr has let me down. As much as I want to like this gun it seems to be fighting me. At this point I would feel bad selling it to somebody else. I'll see what Kahr says when I call them in the morning. The range trip wasn't a total loss. The Glock ran like champ. :cool:
it was a joke. fur sure don't peddle a bad gun, send it back to kahr, let them fix it and in the mean time u decide if u wantto peddle it, and when it comes back, don'tshoot it but peddle it then imo IN GOOD FAITH YOU HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING AND AS FAR AS UR CONCERNED KAHR FIXED IT, U JUST NEVER TOOK IT OUT AND SHOT IT.
glocks normally do run like a champ. actualy so do kahrs. let kahr send a pre paid on the gun, donm't u pay to send it back..
jocko
08-11-2011, 07:18 PM
for sure IMO go steel on a 40 cal, just a powerful pocket rocket for the PM40 or polymer kahrs. 380's another thing, I see no issues with a polymer 380 of any brand,
Best thing to buy IMO is the 9mm inj the kahrs, they seem to be the least problematic in all degrees. If u not gonna pocket carry buy the MK40. It will take all you can give it.I feel the polymer 40 kahrs can to but it is so light that alot of issues can be shooter induced and the gun gets blamed etc, but no matter if it doesn't do the job for YOU, then u just gotta do what u gotta do. No embarrassemnt in peddling a kahr for another brand of gun. We know of many who peddle other guns for a kahr and never look back.
fI feel the polymer 40 kahrs can to but it is so light that alot of issues can be shooter induced and the gun gets blamed etc
I thought that could be the issue but it's always the same round regardless of shooter, I'm not the only one that's shot it. I even made sure to not tweak the mag when shooting just to make sure.
let kahr send a pre paid on the gun, donm't u pay to send it back..
I just got it back from Kahr yesterday.:eek:
has anybody seen these?
http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb435/FMKeith/get-attachment-11aspx.jpg
http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb435/FMKeith/get-attachment-12aspx.jpg
That is from a local ad for a PM40
jocko
08-11-2011, 07:36 PM
do we know if those are kahr magazines or some after market mag. the body looks like a kahr body and now we are looking at what??Metal mag followers. Wouldn't that be a hoot if that is true
do we know if those are kahr magazines or some after market mag. the body looks like a kahr body and now we are looking at what??Metal mag followers. Wouldn't that be a hoot if that is true
The seller claims they came from the Kahr custom shop. I'm gonna ask them about it tomorrow. The followers are not the big deal to me. The gun still runs with a broken follower. I think my 6 round mag is the problem. My gun shop is taking good care of me. Trading up for a MK might be a possibility. I'm not set on a .40 so a PM9 might work too.
TucsonMTB
08-11-2011, 08:18 PM
Admittedly, we have no 9mm pistols in the family and haven't for a couple of years, but it seems like 9mm might be the "sweet spot" for the Kahr design.
This is the only .40 I have. I may put the new follower in the 5 round mag and go try and run another 100 tomorrow at lunch time.
TucsonMTB
08-11-2011, 09:47 PM
This is the only .40 I have. I may put the new follower in the 5 round mag and go try and run another 100 tomorrow at lunch time.
Hardcore! That's admirable dedication, sir! :)
Hardcore! That's admirable dedication, sir! :)
Yeah cause a 100 rounds behind that thing is no joke. The guy that went with me today had enough after 10 rounds. ;)
wyntrout
08-11-2011, 10:34 PM
Those followers look kind of crude, but stamped, hollow-metal followers should give an extra round capacity... or could. They certainly aren't very pretty. Maybe they work better, though.
Wynn:)
pappy42
08-12-2011, 10:46 AM
pappy, if you bought a new flat screen and the speakers shot craps in the 1st 30 days and you had to pay an extra $75 to get it to work like it was supposed to from the beginning - you'd be pissed, too. And it's in the shop for 2-4 weeks and you had to watch your Pay per View on a 13" Aiwa...
I take your point.
If I had to fight for my life or the life of another, with a flat screen TV; I would gladly pay to get it fixed!
tomwalshco
08-12-2011, 01:21 PM
I might as well use the TV as a weapon. My real weapon will be back at the factory for 4 weeks making it usable like it should have been. Or I could hide under my bed until Labor Day.
TucsonMTB
08-12-2011, 01:56 PM
I might as well use the TV as a weapon. My real weapon will be back at the factory for 4 weeks making it usable like it should have been. Or I could hide under my bed until Labor Day.
Sounds like a job for your Glock 36! I've always liked those, just can't justify (to SWMBO) owning one with three perfectly good 1911's on hand. Now, if I could just win a lottery . . .
http://www.glock.com/images/g36.jpg
jocko
08-12-2011, 02:07 PM
Those followers look kind of crude, but stamped, hollow-metal followers should give an extra round capacity... or could. They certainly aren't very pretty. Maybe they work better, though.
Wynn:)
polymer fopllower also looks crude. If the metal ones work, fokk it shoot it like u stole it. One thing is . THEY WON'T CRACK.:hippie:
sorry guys, hate to break ur hearts bgut this is the reploy I got back from kahr today:
Good afternoon. I have checked with our head of customer service and
he has told me that we are not shipping any metal followers. I hope this
information helps and I apologize for any inconvenience.
pappy42
08-12-2011, 03:10 PM
I might as well use the TV as a weapon. My real weapon will be back at the factory for 4 weeks making it usable like it should have been. Or I could hide under my bed until Labor Day.
I feel your pain. If it's any consolation; many gun manufacturers are in a similiar situation right now. Thier QC has dropped off and repair folks are fewer in number. It all stems from the companies trying to squeeze out a profit in these tough economic times.
Am I offering an excuse for the shoddy treatment we receive? Absolutely not! The firearms companies, especially those marketing "self defense" type weapons should make dog gone sure that they work before putting them out the door.
tv_racin_fan
08-12-2011, 03:36 PM
For the price I paid I won't loose any $$ but it's not really about that. I got the gun for one reason and that is to carry it. That is only thing it needs to be good at. I don't shoot it nearly as much as my Glock or XD because its not a range toy. It needs to fire every time you pull the trigger. If Glock and Springfield can build one that shoots every time I don't see why Kahr can't. Maybe Kahr will come through with a whole new mag.
Glock nor Springfield manufacture a handgun of this size that I am aware of. When you start making something smaller and smaller the tolerances get tighter and tighter. This makes the chances of failures higher and higher. Generally they need a bit of running and some rubbing to make em run smooth. If you don't like that particular Kahr I am sure someone will be glad to take it off your hands. Of course you could revert to carrying the larger Glock or Springfield...I have an older magazine that has a machined aluminum follower with steel pin.
jocko
08-12-2011, 03:43 PM
I don't think anyone here is making excuses for kAHRS NOT WORKING LIKE ONE THINKS THEY SHOULD. tHAT BEING SAID it is just gonna happen. I had to send my G19 back once to get right. Certainly not bragging about that but I trust it with my life. 2 of 3 kahrs I own have never left my home for repair. the little P380 had to have some TLC before it got right. I don't alibi for kahrs, I think they are super gun but this is a kahr forum and ur gonna get more negatives here than positives, for most people don't even know about kahr forum and most people are having no issues so see no real need to get involved in a forum either.
I know it is frustrating to send a gun back and it comes back still wrong, ask me about it, I sent my 3 kel tec back 17 times before I could get them reliable enough TO PEDDLE them...
tv_racin_fan
08-12-2011, 03:49 PM
Jocko I know the feeling on sewnding stuff back and it coming back not repaired. I had a Taurus MT5 wagon that had a leak, took it back to the dealer to fix it and when I went to pick it up I showed the service manager why it was not fixed and explained to him that not only would I never ever buy another auto from that dealership but that everyone I ever met would get the same explanation. The guy had to have been flat out blind not to see what I saw. I shoulda fixed it myself...
tomwalshco
08-12-2011, 03:54 PM
pappy, in response - I know these factories get a lot of guns back from purely operator error and owner ignorance, and I'm sure it kills their bottom line. That's why they fight so hard on these shipping fees. Too bad they couldn't setup authorized repair networks around, but that's another profit killer. They should just charge an extra $20 wholesale for their units and maybe be a little more forgiving on returns - especially if the owner can make cogent points about why he feels the gun is a stinker.
Another idea would be send the call tags out and put it on the bill if it is an operator error. I think FFLs can send stuff out regular ground, which would be a money saver for the owner, but then you've got more fees to deal with.
Of course, tightening up QC a little wouldn't hurt any. But with the OP's issues - what are you going to do - x-ray every follower??? Probably, if I was on the other end of the phone, I'd be going ballistic on every other call......
And my beef is not so much that something slipped by (it happens) but it's so goddam expensive to send it back. Guess my anger needs to be focused at the carriers or the feds.
Those followers look kind of crude, but stamped, hollow-metal followers should give an extra round capacity... or could. They certainly aren't very pretty. Maybe they work better, though.
Wynn:)They look better than the 3 broken ones I have changed. :(
The gun runs good with the 5 round mag. I put almost 100 through it today. I'm guessing my problem is the 6 round mag.
pappy42
08-12-2011, 06:55 PM
They look better than the 3 broken ones I have changed. :(
The gun runs good with the 5 round mag. I put almost 100 through it today. I'm guessing my problem is the 6 round mag.
That is good news; the pistol should and must run.
But with the OP's issues - what are you going to do - x-ray every follower???
There is no excuse for the follower problem. Three of the four I have are broke. They charge $11 for them, and it's not an updated part. I shouldn't need to carry an extra one, it's not like I'm the only one having this problem. It's bad for business when I go to the range and have to put my gun away early because it's broke. It's not likely that I'll by another.
TucsonMTB
08-12-2011, 07:35 PM
Promise me you won't get pissed if I tell you that Kahr will be glad to send you replacements. I am on my fourth replacement, one for each of the two mags provided with each of two PM40 pistols. I believe it is an infant mortality problem with the new mags because, so far, the replacements I have installed have not broken.
Yes, I may be living in a dream world, but I like it. :D
If you have not already, call Kahr customer support or send them an email that describes the issue and includes your shipping address. I believe you will be pleased with their response.
I've already got two free ones from Kahr, one of which has already broke. Problem is when I'm at the range and it breaks they don't bring me a new one. As much as I like carrying this gun I'm kind of over it. Maybe I'll just sell it and finish my AR pistol. I'll just carry that. ;)
TucsonMTB
08-12-2011, 08:43 PM
Maybe I'll just sell it and finish my AR pistol. I'll just carry that. ;)
Now that sounds like fun . . . there I go in my dream world again.
Have you saved any of the broken followers? Greg (gb6491) pointed me to a posting on GlockTalk (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14309736&postcount=3) by a guy whose PM40 barrel ramp was punching out his followers. The impacts left marks on his followers until he dealt with it. My broken followers have no marks, but are not recurring after the initial failure. If they had marks or continued to break, my PM40 would be back at Kahr CS in a heart beat.
His fix included a bit of grinding . . . best left to Kahr CS, in my opinion.
The full thread is at: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14309736#post14309736
Range report.
100 rounds with the 5 round mag no problems at all, other than my hand is hurting a little.
TucsonMTB
08-13-2011, 04:27 PM
Okay . . . That does it. I am off to the range. I usually ride my mountain bike over the range, because it is on a dirt road, fire 100 rounds, because they fit easily in my spare water bottle holder, and then ride home.
I do not experience discomfort, other than needing to put a band-aid around the first knuckle of my trigger finger where the trigger guard hits it.
Today, I will take an extra 50 rounds along just see what this hand issue is all about. Later . . . :)
Okay . . . That does it. I am off to the range. I usually ride my mountain bike over the range, because it is on a dirt road, fire 100 rounds, because they fit easily in my spare water bottle holder, and then ride home.
I do not experience discomfort, other than needing to put a band-aid around the first knuckle of my trigger finger where the trigger guard hits it.
Today, I will take an extra 50 rounds along just see what this hand issue is all about. Later . . . :)
Got to shoot them fast. I was on the range less than 20 min. :D
TucsonMTB
08-13-2011, 09:57 PM
Got to shoot them fast. I was on the range less than 20 min. :D
This was double tap practice session using both a 5 round and a 6 round magazine at 15 yards. I only used the 6 round mag a few times because the 5 rounder has the new magazine follower that I wanted to stress test.
It was close enough to the end of the day for the range that I did hurry a bit spending less than 30 minutes from clock in to clock out. Oh, and I suck at double taps, especially the second round.
Still, my hands are not sore, even though I am not young or much of an athlete. Yes, it is possible that the hand strength built up by riding road bicycles for hours at a time is similar to what we use shooting. Otherwise, I can't explain it.
The magazine is in the picture to show the small wear lines that have started to appear since I blackened it about 200 rounds ago.
http://viewsfromtucson.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Target-PM403.jpg
Called Kahr today and the said to send them the 6 round mag. Who has the best price on the 5 round mags Kahr or aftermarket?
TucsonMTB
08-15-2011, 08:36 PM
Called Kahr today and the said to send them the 6 round mag. Who has the best price on the 5 round mags Kahr or aftermarket?
Cool! Are they planning to replace it with a 5 rounder? In the past, they have been willing to do that.
When I bought mine, CDNN had the best price with shipping. Others here have posted that CheaperThanDirt has good prices. They change frequently enough that you should probably break out your GoogleFu and see what you can find.
Best of luck!
I didn't get a chance to send my mag back so I took it to the range with the broken follower. I put 50 rounds down range with 0 problems. So it looks like I would need to sand the follower like in that link you posted. I'm still gonna send it back and hopefully get a new one.
TucsonMTB
08-19-2011, 08:39 PM
Cool! I am very pleased it is working out for you. :D
Range report
Shot a few tonight with no problems. Got home and realized I can't find my 5 round mag. :32: I'm beginning to think this gun and I don't belong together. Now I only have the 6 round mag that only works with a broken follower, I haven't sent it back yet. Where is the best place to buy mags?
TucsonMTB
09-01-2011, 09:11 PM
Shot a few tonight with no problems.
Good news! :)
Where is the best place to buy mags?
Not sure. I bought mine from CDNN http://www.cdnninvestments.com/kapm405rdstf.html
Most recently, some folks have identified Ivanhoe as having good prices and cheap shipping. http://www.ivanhoeoutlet.com/shop/index.php?action=category&id=13&subid=36
Best of luck with your shopping.
wyntrout
09-01-2011, 09:44 PM
I saw someone mentioned that a few days ago and went there... Ivanhoe Warehouse Outlet I bought FOUR new 7-round, extended grip .40 mags for my new-to-me P40 that I'll soon have. The cost was $24.95... about $20 less than Kahr! And, shipping was only $5.
IF they have what you want, you can get a deal there. Otheriwse, I've bought a LOT of Kahr mags from Cheaper Than Dirt... best prices at the time.
Use Google and let your fingers do the walking... deals and out-pf-state with no tax.
Wynn:)
I'm gonna go by the range and see if it's there if not I'll get a couple from Ivanhoe.
Got my mag back. They knew it was mine and set it aside.
TucsonMTB
09-02-2011, 06:41 PM
Got my mag back. They knew it was mine and set it aside.
Sounds like a nice place to shoot! :)
Still couldn't hurt to have a spare magazine or two. Think of them as storage locations for your spare followers. . . . :behindsofa:
Oh, and you might ask Kahr for a spare follower. They didn't seem to happy about it, but they did send me an extra one when they replaced my fourth broken follower. ;)
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