Accidental discharges

[Dietrich]

I was just reading Wynn`s thread about a guy having a Glock go off accidently in his pants and it got me to thinking about the many accidental discharges I`ve read about over the years.It worries me,especially since a lot of the handguns that are accidently discharged are Glocks.Or at least Glocks get a lot of bad press,I.E. "Glock Leg".Now I don`t believe for one minute that a gun just goes off by itself but what in the name of all that`s holy are these people doing to these guns? I have two Glocks and so far they have behaved themselves but I want to make sure that there isn`t some kind of voodoo going on.Is it that people are careless about putting their fingers on the trigger or wearing a gun that doesn`t have a holster/trigger guard or what? It`s enough to give me the vapors.

[500KV]

Is it that people are careless about putting their fingers on the trigger or wearing a gun that doesn`t have a holster/trigger guard or what? It`s enough to give me the vapors.

I'd say you pretty well summed it up right there.
I also love my Glocks but would also note that the trigger "safety" is something that might be called into question when compared to the external safeties on many other handguns.
They require a different level of awareness in my opinion. :yo:

[erice303]

the recent guy in orlandodid not even have a holster. To me any gun must be in a holster that makes it imposable to pull the trigger until it clears the holster.

[melissa5]

I'd never carry a Glock without a holster! That's just asking for trouble.

[Bawanna]

Some people don't belong anywhere where there aren't sidewalks and walk and don't walk signs. Operator error, negligence is the whole picture.
Ironically Glocks safe action is what finally cured me and made me comfy with a 1911 again after many many years away ironically due to a AD, (totally my fault). In fact a detective asked me why I was so leary of a 1911. He then made reference to the Glock. How do you avoid firing the glock. Keep your finger off the trigger duh? Why won't that work on a 1911. Imagine that.
If you shoot guns, work on guns, enjoy guns long enough you WILL have an accidental discharge. Weather it's a bad thing or an oops depends on what your thinking or doing when it happens.
I recall reading about the Garu Jeff Cooper shooting the power meter on his home with his supposedly empty gun. Bunch of his pals managed to get it and had it bronzed.

[Dietrich]

Well,you folks have put my mind {what there is left of it] at ease once again.I suppose if you look at it in the right way,the Glock safe action trigger has made us more careful in our carrying practices.Who`d a thunk it?I`m getting ready to go into town.I think I`ll strap on my G36 with its` Crossbreed holster and see what I can run across at a couple of gun stores.If nothing transpires there,I need some new flounder rigs.Looks like it`s gonna be a nice afternoon.

[O'Dell]

I've been shooting hand guns for 45 years. In the 25 years or so since they came out I have never even considered a Glock. It's not just because I can't shoot them worth a darn or they don't fit my hand, but I've never been totally convinced that they are safe. This may be totally irrational on my part like my fear of heights, but it's my money, and I'll spend it where I want to do so. I've never worried about Brownings, Rugers, Tauruses, [at least about safety] 1911's, HK's, or M&P's because mine have always had manual safeties. I don't even worry about my SIGs, Kahrs, or my LCP - just Glocks.

I've never had a ND, but my son has with my PM45. He dropped the mag, pointed it at a light switch in my hallway, and blew it out of the wall. However that was hardly the gun's fault, as it would have happened with any pistol w/o a mag disconnect.

[Dietrich]

O`Dell,you are exactly,100% correct.If a person doesn`t feel comfortable with any gun they should pass it by.In firearms ownership,it`s all about what you like.Not what others like.;)

[Bawanna]

Wow just like Angels, Scotch and cigars huh? I give up the cigars, was stunting my growth but the others are natural.

[wyntrout]

I've never shot a Glock, but I've held a few and they are just too big and blocky... AND UGLY... to me.

Then there were those cases that they came in with the post that the trigger guard went over AND fired the pistol if it was loaded!! Of course there were instructions not to place a loaded gun in the case... BUT, who reads instructions... too much trouble. There were a LOT of AD's with that case.

Wynn:)

[jocko]

I really never thought a glock was ugly, expecially the G19. I never thought to juch of their trigger safety but maybe for leo people it is OK. I bought my son a G19 and heis not a gun savvy person so Ihad the SIDERLOCK safety installed on it and I personally love it.,

siderlock.com

[melissa5]

I don't think Glocks are ugly. They just don't have the beauty of wood and steel. For the Apocalypse, I would choose a Glock 17 every day and twice on Sunday.

[jocko]

agree, as much as I hate to agree with a woman!!!!!!! but I have to give um some credit, every once in awhile they come up with something good..

[Bill K]

There are those that aren't comfortable around guns period. There are some Glockers that put 3.5 pound connectors on their Glocks without concern. Most of us fall somewhere in between the two extremes. For sure my safety awareness is heightened when handling my Glock 26.

Bill K.

[CJB]

I was just reading Wynn`s thread about a guy having a Glock go off accidently in his pants

Read down in the thread.... the guy admitted to the cops that he was "playing with" his pistol. Sorry, all bets off, end of show, Elvis has left the building, and the guy has no sympathy from me. Its not the guns fault when the person in possession of it "plays with" the gun.

With that behind me, in my 12 years or so employed at two local ranges, I've seen:

A cop get shot in the leg about as close to his testicles as one could come and not actually crease the skin on his *******. Despite the "plastic safety post" in the Glock case, meant to prevent a loaded gun from being put in the case, and despite the BIG DAYGLOW STICKER in there that said "Never put a loaded gun in this case", he chose to anyway. The only way to do so was to defeat the trigger safety and pull the trigger partially back (on a loaded chamber!). He put the gun/case combo in his cruisers trunk, slammed the truck lid and the gun fired, exiting the rear of the trunk and entering his right leg. Yes his nuts was hurtin' for a long long time.

Another guy, did the same thing with his Glock, existed the range, bought something, put it in the Glock case, snapped on the lid while in the sales area of the building, and shot off his right ring finger (well it was dangling by a small flap). The finger is now a bit shorter, but reattached.

Another guy, a retired cop, used to his 1911 (he said) proceeded to load his Glock at the sales counter, despite strong verbal warning to stop, lowered the slide and "decocked" his Glock by thumbing down the (non existant) hammer and pulling the trigger. His gun fired, of course, the round went into a shelf full of ammo, setting some of that off (harmlessly), and his thumb got a whackin' big time from the slide. Same guy wanted a pass from me on having to actually attend NRA safety class, for his CW/FL saying he was a cop for 30 years, etc etc. Not a week later (and before he took the class) he had that AD.

Another guy did the same thing, with a 10mm glock, taking a chunk out of the floor tile (and underlying cement) in the range entry area. He said he was preparing to carry his Glock "condition two". I personally tossed him out of the range.

I don't know what it is. Guns are not for everyone. But I think Glock gets is share of AD's, a bit higher than most of the others, for some reason.

[O'Dell]

I've never shot a Glock, but I've held a few and they are just too big and blocky... AND UGLY... to me.


Wynn:)

A few years ago my son and I had a shootout. He was a Lt on a local force at the time and as such, had control of the police range. I brought a SIG P225 and P220 and he, being a Glock fan, brought a 19 and a 22. Long story short, I literally 'blew him away' on his own range. Then he had the brilliant idea that we swap guns and do it again. Guess what? He almost beat me using my own guns! As I said - they don't fit my hand and I don't shoot them well. I think that's reason enough to not have one.

As for their reliability, that dept has had three 22 KB's on the range using factory "Lawmen" ammo. Glock was not pleased and replaced the pistols, but they later went to M&P's. My son became chief of another force and now carries a 21.

BTW, Wynn, I also think they're ugly.

[ltxi]

Glocks are what fully enclosed holster trigger guard and "finger off the trigger" training was invented for. The "Safe Action" trigger is a total joke. This is a 5 pound, short pull semi-auto with no safety. Think of a 1911 cocked and unlocked.....essentially the same thing. I wouldn't and don't carry mine that way.

That said, I think Glocks are great "appliance" guns and in the hands of the sane, trained, and understanding perfectly, ok reasonably, safe. I own two. Both in .40 and I wouldn't hesitate to use either for open, belt carry with an appropriate for the breed holster. However, since I don't do that at all anymore, both live in my vehicle consoles (in appropriate holsters) and that's all I really consider them useful for. Inexpensive, there if I need them, dead stone reliable, I shoot them well, and if stolen no real loss.

Yeah, I know, that would be another gun on the street, but "console carry" on work days these days is the best I can do.

[MikeyKahr]

It`s enough to give me the vapors.

I have no idea what the vapors are but they don't sound good. Not one bit. I think they do make something to combat it though, Dietrich, it's called Beano (c) or TM or (R). CMA and all ya know. I think I'd rather have the vapors than the liquids though.

[OldLincoln]

Wikipedia:"The Vapors were a new wave and power pop band from England, that existed between 1979 and 1981. They had a hit with the song "Turning Japanese" in 1980."

[Dietrich]

The vapors is a term I used to hear a long time ago.I don`t know if the term is of Southern origins or what.Websters defines the vapors as A. archaic: "exhalations of bodily organs {as the stomach] held to affect the physical or mental condition." Or B: " a depressed or hysterical mental condition". Personally,I have always associated the vapors with being lightheaded almost to the point of swooning.

[jocko]

u glock guys should look at the sider lock set up for gloc,s not only totallay safe but a safety where it belongs, a safety that if u don't wantt6o use it, then it still utilizes their glock style satety and totally made of machined steel no crapin this system. damdest safety system I have ever had on any gun, no mods needed, forks for right or left shooters. I bought one for my son's first glock and if I buy me another glock, I would do the same thing.



www.siderlock.com

[TucsonMTB]

u glock guys should look at the sider lock set up for gloc,s not only totallay safe but a safety where it belongs, a safety that if u don't wantt6o use it, then it still utilizes their glock style satety and totally made of machined steel no crapin this system. damdest safety system I have ever had on any gun, no mods needed, forks for right or left shooters. I bought one for my son's first glock and if I buy me another glock, I would do the same thing. www.siderlock.com (http://www.siderlock.com)
http://www.siderlock.com/system/templates/v3/images/installation/cleaning/step_13_grande.jpg

Here's a quick look at the kit they send. The safety button ends up right on the replacement trigger they supply. Quite elegant! :)

[Bill K]

I'd feel less safe with a manual safety on my Glock. Clear - draw - point - shoot... Oops! Carrying my manual safetied Glock not my P3AT or PM9. Sorry, no do overs.

Nothing wrong with manual safeties. Just my humble opinion that if you've got more than one gun in your carry system then the manual of arms should be the same for each gun.

Bill K.

[ltxi]

I'd feel less safe with a manual safety on my Glock. Clear - draw - point - shoot... Oops! Carrying my manual safetied Glock not my P3AT or PM9. Sorry, no do overs.

Nothing wrong with manual safeties. Just my humble opinion that if you've got more than one gun in your carry system then the manual of arms should be the same for each gun.

Bill K.

I understand what you're saying but disagree somewhat. Back in the day there were DA revolvers with long trigger pulls, SA revolvers never carried cocked, and mostly SA semi-autos with short trigger pulls and safeties. My current, extended, set of u&c carry arms consists of a PM9 (that I mentally treat as a revolver), two S&W J-frames, a LW 1911 Colt, and a NAA Mini-Mag. They all have their proper place. I'm proficient with all and instinctively switching among them has never been a problem.

Glocks used to confuse my muscle memory. I learned to deal with that by swiping off the non-existent safety when drawing and firing the first shot.

[Jeremiah/Az]

We had an old guy,80, at our gunclub that always carried a Glock unholstered stuck in his pants under his belt on the left side butt forward. I always thought he would shoot himself, but he died of old age. Scary stuff!

[CJB]

Glocks used to confuse my muscle memory. I learned to deal with that by swiping off the non-existent safety when drawing and firing the first shot.

Well that just hit me like a ton of bricks.... due to the nature of the AD's I witnessed in my range duty days.

I'm not gettin' on your case or anything, just trying to reconcile what goes thru peoples heads and apply that to actions that have seemingly mysterious motives. That one guy, retired cop (from the northeast)... said he was lowering the hammer on his Glock, his thumb was all fubar, and we got an unexpected hole in the place. Makes me think: What? And, yah he was mid 60's in age, but also a retired LEO, so at least had "some" training.

There are some people, who can hop on machinery, and work it with precision with almost no training (this lever does that...). They can ride/drive/fly almost any sort of vehicle well, from motorcycle to Cessna. They can grasp the concept of things mechanical - like firearms, and manipulate them correctly without thinking much about it.

Other people - most of us - need deliberate training, repetition, and periodic practice to become proficient.

Other people.... folks... some just dont get it, and that scares the living hell out of me, be it the idiot texting his way through a red light at 40mph, or the idiot lowering the hammer on his Glock. They don't get it, never will, its not for them, and while I'm sure they excel at a multitude of endeavors, firearms should not be considered in the pool of possibilities for their everyday activity.

[Bawanna]

I don't think swiping off the imaginary safety is all that bad a thing.

Back in our Beretta 92 days they had safety dec0ckers. So you dropped the hammer and if you had to shoot you had to flip the safety up. Totally unnatural and unlike the perfect 1911 design.
When we transitioned to 40's they were dec0cker only, in that the hammer dropped but the decocker went right back into fire mode.

Many of the officers would automatically put the safety back up into the fire mode. We read of instances in other parts of the country where an officer tried to shoot and his gun wouldn't fire. He had forgot to flip the safety up.

So we started training to flip the safety up weather it was kept up or not.
If it was already up, so much the better, if it wasn't it is now.

I think I actually like the idea since I primarily carry a 1911 but occasionally (rarely carry a Glock). No harm in flipping that safety off even if it's not there. Course this is just my feeble opinion.

[CJB]

I don't think its a bad thing either - for the right reasons. It was just a revelation to me that someone might actually do that, and then... it sort of brought 2+2 a little closer together towards 4 in my mind, regarding some AD's.

Ever seen that picture of Oswald getting shot?
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKoswald3.jpg

Take a look at the police chief. Not an AD, but thats about how I felt experiencing, first hand, a few of them. He's about to crap his pants, and thats exactly how I felt too. All these years I've wondered... what was going thru the mind of the folks who caused the ADs. The "imaginary safety" swiping has me thinking along new threads of possibility.

[Bawanna]

Almost like he's stepping back making an opening for the shot. Wonder if he was on the grassy nole? What the heck is a grassy nole anyhow?

[melissa5]

Almost like he's stepping back making an opening for the shot. Wonder if he was on the grassy nole? What the heck is a grassy nole anyhow?

No, Bawanna! They were on the gassy hole. It swallowed them up and that's why they were never found. :rolleyes:

[wyntrout]

"Take a look at the police chief. Not an AD, but thats about how I felt experiencing, first hand, a few of them. He's about to crap his pants, and thats exactly how I felt too."

I think he's thinking "I'm NEXT!! :eek:" And that other thing, too, for sure.

Wynn:D

[CJB]

When you're doing duty at the range, and there happens to be (against my wishes) a logo with a huge stenciled TARGET on your back.... and you got one going off feet away, especially when you're helping another customer, let me assure you the "WADDAFUGIMNEXT!!!!" routine did come to the surface in the murky pool of thoughts that normally cloud my waking hours. Yah-man and then some. Then you realize its an AD, or ND or whatever...

You're there, you see it, you hear it, you're effected by it, you have to work it out with some talk and maybe a few drinks with your range associates. The two places were both indoor ranges, small places, regularly uneventful places. Have I become jaded in the process of gaining this unwanted experience? Yes. By the end of my stint, when an AD occurred I'd grab a garbage bag. Why? Put the effected limb, if any, in it. Less blood to clean up. When you've taken two pieces of cardboard, and brought them together like a scoop to lift the jelled blood off the tiles on the floor, you start thinking practically.

[bonjorno2]

no such things as accidental

[CJB]

In all the cases I've cited, you're right. I'm used to calling them that - since in the day, we didn't use the term "negligent discharge".

There have been accidental ones - Smith and Wesson had some 9mm 39's and 59's that had a habit of having the firing pin get stuck forward, firing on slide closure. Those were AD's. The fire on closure Glocks. I've seen two Browning HP's that would fire when the safety was released - if the pistol had been stored a while that way, and subject to a bit of jostling. Come to think of it - you never heard of that being recalled by Browning. That sort of thing is accidental, but definitely my bad for using the term incorrectly.

[wyntrout]

I've had ONE discharge like that... a Remington Nylon 66... as I released the bolt to load the danged thing. Thankfully, I decided to point it just outside the boat... into the water!! My father-in-law and I were fishing, well, shooting snakes at the time, and they could have been wanting a chance at me in the water!:eek:
You just can't be TOO SAFE!
I still don't need safeties on my CCW and defense weapons... NO KIDS in the house and my wife is familiar with guns... retired USAF MSGT. She had to stay qualified with the .38 special S&W model 15, I think, and the Remington 870 12-ga. in Europe. Me, too, and I retired before ever carrying the M9, flying, or otherwise.

Just got a call from wifey. She's stuck in Dallas for the night... should have been landing here in 20 minutes. :( She's been gone since very early last Tuesday and we were looking forward to being back together tonight!

I can finish cleaning my PM45 now and forget about some of the other stuff I needed to do. I won't have time to do that in the morning, either... just want to get my PM45 cleaned and back into its "ready position" with 7+1 at hand and a 7-round reload at my computer station.

Wynn:)

[ltxi]

I don't think its a bad thing either - for the right reasons. It was just a revelation to me that someone might actually do that, and then... it sort of brought 2+2 a little closer together towards 4 in my mind, regarding some AD's.



I guess/hope you appreciate my point. Glocks form a minor component of handguns I own for defense. I choose to treat them the way I do, 1911 like, specifically to prevent both AD and other than Glock not working under stress. Got nothing to do with "after" and thumbing down the hammer.

In agreement with Bawanna's comment, I think, I would never even consider owing a defense handgun that required up for fire and down for decocker/safe. It doesn't fit my half century of training/experience/wiring and could get me killed.

[bonjorno2]

In all the cases I've cited, you're right. I'm used to calling them that - since in the day, we didn't use the term "negligent discharge".

There have been accidental ones - Smith and Wesson had some 9mm 39's and 59's that had a habit of having the firing pin get stuck forward, firing on slide closure. Those were AD's. The fire on closure Glocks. I've seen two Browning HP's that would fire when the safety was released - if the pistol had been stored a while that way, and subject to a bit of jostling. Come to think of it - you never heard of that being recalled by Browning. That sort of thing is accidental, but definitely my bad for using the term incorrectly.


it's all good, when it is a malfunction with the weapon and not the operator error/negligent then I agree...

[dannyeller]

I have three Glocks. A 17, 22 and 23. I have competed with the 17 and 22. I have some modifications on them. I carried the 23. I like the simple pull and shoot. Take your finger off the trigger and it is safe. I've seen people I respect that are class "A" shooters pull their 45 and try to fire without taking it off safe. It goes to show that the best can still make a mistake. Even though they acted like their dog died,thank goodness those mistakes happened in a match and not during something more serious.

As much as I like them I do not recommend Glocks to new shooters. I try and steer them into a revolver until they become more comfortable and confident in handling a firearm. As stated a good holster is a must for a Glock. If big Government ever came to my house and said give all of them up but one, after the shootout and I survived the Glock 23 would be the one I keep even though as some of you have seen my custom T9 and MK40 the Glock 23 is not anywhere close to the firearm I have the most money in.

[paul34]

Not an accidental discharge - rather, it is a negligent discharge :)

Accidental would be the gun going off by itself while sitting on a table with no one near it, or falling and discharging upon hitting the floor. There are a few other genuine "AD" scenarios mentioned in this thread.

Negligence is letting one's finger hit the trigger, which is the case in pretty much every so called "accidental" discharge story you hear. Or, uncareful holstering. Or, as mentioned, careless individuals who carry without holsters. Always use a quality holster. Not doing so is being reckless, careless, and selfish - when one permit holder has an incident of negligence, it reflects very poorly on ALL permit holders. Uncle Mike's holsters may not be top notch, but they do well enough if you really cannot afford a nicer holster - so no "I can't afford it" excuses.

Oftentimes, when you hear of a gun "going off" when it hits the ground, the cause isn't so much the impact as the owner going for the "fumble" and trying to catch the thing before it hits the floor. BIG MISTAKE.

NEVER try to catch a falling gun! Let it hit the ground! You'll almost certainly unintentionally squeeze the trigger in the process of catching it! Most modern guns are drop safe. You'll get a few scratches and your ego will be bruised, but other than that, you'll be fine. Let it hit the ground.

Other than that, follow the four rules. They will keep you safe!

[wyntrout]

Accidental means unintended. This is anytime the trigger was not purposefully pulled... intentional. Negligent is a subset of accidental discharges, as is material failure or design failures, whether one time, random, or repeating. Gremlins don't cause one-time failures, but it sure can seem that way.
That time I was chambering a round in my Nylon 66, I pointed the barrel out of the boat as kind of an afterthought... a fortunate one, it turned out. I always point the barrel in the safest direction for chambering a round... you just never know, but it only takes once for bad consequences to happen. "Murphy" is alive and ready to "help" you all of the time.

Wynn:)

[earle8888]

I had not heard the term Neg. discharge used before this thread, BUT, I think it is much more appropriate than accidental.

[Bawanna]

I had not heard the term Neg. discharge used before this thread, BUT, I think it is much more appropriate than accidental.

I absolutely agree.

[rwblue01]

Not an accidental discharge - rather, it is a negligent discharge :)

Accidental would be the gun going off by itself while sitting on a table with no one near it, or falling and discharging upon hitting the floor. There are a few other genuine "AD" scenarios mentioned in this thread.

Negligence is letting one's finger hit the trigger, which is the case in pretty much every so called "accidental" discharge story you hear. Or, uncareful holstering. Or, as mentioned, careless individuals who carry without holsters. Always use a quality holster. Not doing so is being reckless, careless, and selfish - when one permit holder has an incident of negligence, it reflects very poorly on ALL permit holders. Uncle Mike's holsters may not be top notch, but they do well enough if you really cannot afford a nicer holster - so no "I can't afford it" excuses.


So I assume you have never been in a car accident?
When you were driving too fast, slow, wrong....?
When your brain just didn't understand that the light had turned red or yellow?
When you didn't see the stop sign that everyone else sees every day?

If you haven't, you haven't been around cars very long.


The same is true of guns. If you are around guns long enough and push to the limits some times, you will have an AD. If you are lucky, it will just make you realize how close you came to really screwing up. If you are unlucky it will cost someone their life.

So far, I have been very lucky.

[ltxi]

I almost hate to say this because it sounds too good to be true, but.....

I've been been handling and shooting firearms, handguns and long guns, since I was 12 years old, for 56 years now. For most of my adult life it's been on a routine basis....for professional reasons, for target practice/sport, for personal defense. I currently own roughly 45 guns in various shapes, sizes, calibers, purpose, and actions. Maybe a half dozen of these I shoot regularly for proficiency reasons and I pretty much always go armed.

I have never suffered an AD/ND/whatever you choose to call it in my entire life. Perhaps just lucky, I prefer to believe sound practice and good.

Of course this most likely means I'll be back here tomorrow confessing I just blew a hole in my foot.

[Bawanna]

I almost hate to say this because it sounds too good to be true, but.....

I've been been handling and shooting firearms, handguns and long guns, since I was 12 years old, for 56 years now. For most of my adult life it's been on a routine basis....for professional reasons, for target practice/sport, for personal defense. I currently own roughly 45 guns in various shapes, sizes, calibers, purpose, and actions. Maybe a half dozen of these I shoot regularly for proficiency reasons and I pretty much always go armed.

I have never suffered an AD/ND/whatever you choose to call it in my entire life. Perhaps just lucky, I prefer to believe sound practice and good.

Of course this most likely means I'll be back here tomorrow confessing I just blew a hole in my foot.

Lets certainly hope not! That would hurt like the dickens and no doubt leave a mark.
I think the more we handle guns the more chances we have of making a goof. I think luck has a lot to do with it.
Sound practice and good safe habits certainly go a long ways towards preventing it.
Also safe good habits make a AD/ND whatever usually have a better outcome. Maybe an embarassing moment versus a tragedy.

[MW surveyor]

rwblue01 - Well lets see....I've been driving since I was 14 legally and a bit before that without any license what ever. I'm 63 now and for the last oh 49 years have never had or been involved in an accident. Lucky? Maybe.

Never had an AD or ND for that matter.

Think I'm due for either?

[ltxi]

Familiarity breeds contempt. Forget that and you end up hurt. Took me three ex-wives to properly grasp the concept. But I eventually learned and this one's still around after pushing 25 years.

I still think I've just cursed myself and am going to end up back here tomorrow confessing I've either just blown a hole in my foot or found a new mistress. :rolleyes:

[MW surveyor]

Well, the mistress is the better thing to have than a hole in the foot. But then again if the wife found out....On second thought maybe the hole in the foot is better, would probably cost less in the long run.

[Bawanna]

Familiarity breeds contempt. Forget that and you end up hurt. Took me three ex-wives to properly grasp the concept. But I eventually learned and this one's still around after pushing 25 years.

I still think I've just cursed myself and am going to end up back here tomorrow confessing I've either just blown a hole in my foot or found a new mistress. :rolleyes:

I'm gonna send an urgent message to Jocko. In addition to knowing all things Kahr related he's into VooDoo. I figure he can build ya a force field to ward off evil demons and squash that curse you put on yourself.

If you start having a hard time breathing let me know, that means he's got the plastic wrap too tight around your head.

Stand by!

In the mean time stay away from sharp objects, ladders, guns or anything explosive. Might avoid the missus for a bit too. Your on your own on the mistress thing, thats way beyond any voo doo power.

[ltxi]

Current wife is 18 years younger, knows the previous versions, and is friends with two. She's also not stupid. So at this point/my age/energy level I think the hole in foot would be a much better option. It might actually even feel better....uh, did I just say that?

[Dietrich]

My wife killing me doesn`t scare me.However,I firmly believe she could make me wish I was dead and that`s far worse.

[ltxi]

In the mean time stay away from sharp objects, ladders, guns or anything explosive. Might avoid the missus for a bit too.

Contradiction in terms/oxymoron ;)

[Bawanna]

Well this is my lucky day, I ain't never been called a contradicted oxymoron before. I might have to go look that one up.

[rwblue01]

Think I'm due for either?

Anyone adept at statistics and probability says yes.



Then again, technically my mother can say the same thing. She has been around guns all her life and as far as I know she has never been in an accident. Odds are she will not have an AD because she doesn't handle guns very often and will probably not get into any car accidents because she is driven around most of the time.

[paul34]

So I assume you have never been in a car accident?

One can follow all the rules of proper driving courtesies and driving in a safe manner, yet still end up in a collision due to someone else's mistake. If I made a mistake, then yes, the collision is absolutely my fault. In addition, driving involves a lot more variables needed to stay safe and collision free compared to a firearm in most of the cases the majority of us will encounter.

With a car, sometimes you can get away with not using your signal. With a gun, there are very rarely any second chances.

That's why you must always follow the four rules. Have I caught myself getting apathetic about those rules? Absolutely. Anyone who starts getting more comfortable with firearms will encounter that moment. Fighting that trend of apathy is incumbent on all responsible gun owners.

I'm not saying we all have to be perfect. Lord knows I certainly am not. However, I am saying that we can help prevent negligent discharges by just never getting apathetic with a few simple principles. I constantly have to be harsh with myself to not do something careless.

Owning and especially carrying firearms is a very serious responsibility.

I understand what you mean by basically saying "unintentional = accidental" (if that is what you mean - if not, I apologize). But, at least in my experience, using ND and AD as two separate terms does help a bit.

[rwblue01]

I understand what you mean by basically saying "unintentional = accidental" (if that is what you mean - if not, I apologize). But, at least in my experience, using ND and AD as two separate terms does help a bit.

You have the idea. Accident = unintentional and maybe even not smart actions.

The problem with using negligent is it gives the anti-gun people power.


There was a bus crash the other day. 4 people are dead, many more hurt. Is it negligent homicide or accidental? Accident he looses his license and in civil court he is screwed. Negligent he serves time.



If it was mechanical, it is accidental.

If it was medical, it is an accident.

If he just miss read the sign like the guy in Atlanta the other year, it is accidental. (bus takes a left exit and crashes over a concrete wall.)

In this case, he fell a sleep and is being charged......it is negligent homicide. Odds are he will be serving time, for falling a sleep and your tax dollars will pay for his incarceration.


On the gun front.
If after a long day of fighting crime putting crack dealers in jail a police officer unholsters his gun. Then he remembers he has no food in his apartment. So he is going out for Chinese. When reholstering his gun it goes off killing the guy down stairs. (Everyone is sad, but lets face it he played his music too loud and Karma caught up with him.) The cop swears his finger was not on the trigger, but it is a Kahr PM9 and we know they just don't go off on their own.

Is it an accident, or do we toss the cop in jail?

[ltxi]

Well this is my lucky day, I ain't never been called a contradicted oxymoron before. I might have to go look that one up.

Not you, Bawanna....the concept of "In the mean time stay away from sharp objects, ladders, guns or anything explosive. Might avoid the missus for a bit too."

Actually, I misspoke. Pretty much all the same thing. :biggrin1:

[Bawanna]

Not you, Bawanna....the concept of "In the mean time stay away from sharp objects, ladders, guns or anything explosive. Might avoid the missus for a bit too."

Actually, I misspoke. Pretty much all the same thing. :biggrin1:

Shucks, guess this means I don't get to be one huh?

I kind of liked Wyns lingo, contradicted moron on oxy? How'd that go again, :eek: where'd it go. This must be the day day of take backs, he deleted it.

I'm back to plain ole carpet glue I reckon..........

[MW surveyor]

I almost always have an accidental discharge when I read some of the things posted by Dietrich! (In his "non-serious" mode that is)

Oh wait, some of the things......never mind.

[wyntrout]

Dang, I can't even remember... controversial moron on oxy??

Wynn:)

[CJB]

My wife killing me doesn`t scare me.However,I firmly believe she could make me wish I was dead and that`s far worse.

Well that seriously answers the question: Does true love last forever, or does it only seem like forever?

[atv223]

Please excuse my ignorance on the subject, I've only had my PM9 a week (haven't even shot it yet), have only shot a Glock a couple of times and my other gun is an HK USP Compact .45.

Prior to reading this thread, I would have thought a Glock and a Kahr have similar "safeties" or lack of, however, a couple of posters imply they wouldn't own a Glock, considering this is a Kahr site I assume those posters are Kahr owners based on this logic, I am getting the impression that most would not classify the Glock and Kahr in the same camp when it comes to the action/safety design.

Would someone please educate me? Thanks!

[rwblue01]

Please excuse my ignorance on the subject, I've only had my PM9 a week (haven't even shot it yet), have only shot a Glock a couple of times and my other gun is an HK USP Compact .45.

Prior to reading this thread, I would have thought a Glock and a Kahr have similar "safeties" or lack of, however, a couple of posters imply they wouldn't own a Glock, considering this is a Kahr site I assume those posters are Kahr owners based on this logic, I am getting the impression that most would not classify the Glock and Kahr in the same camp when it comes to the action/safety design.

Would someone please educate me? Thanks!

I am a new Kahr person also. Setting here with several Glocks and a PM9, I purchased the pm9 because it was like the glock.

Both of them are like revolvers, you pull the trigger and the gun goes bang.

For the Kahr, the trigger pull is longer and harder. (It is lighter pull than any of my revolvers.)

For the Glock it is shorter and lighter (but has a block that "should" keep the trigger from going back).

[jocko]

kahrs have a 3/8" trigger travel and is basically about 10% in a precocked position.

My G19 glock has a much shorter trigger pull (travel) and is basicaly 50% pre cocked. There is a difference. I shoot my G19 far better due to the short trigger system and I have a siderlock trigger safety kit in my G19 which makes me feel so so much safer than the standard glock SAS. Basically keep ur finger out of the trigger area and both will serve u well. I would not stick either in my pocket unless in a pocket holster than covered the trigger system . Most glocks I am told come with a 5# factory trigger in them, kahrs from the factory are around 7 to 7-5#

don't misinterpret us kahr guys, we think alot of glock and what they have done for the shooting industry. It is still the weapon of choice for over 60-% of law enforecment. But a glock and a kahr are IMO two real different guns.

In a firefight (what eve rin the hell that is), I would grab my 15 round G19 over my PM9.. but in my pocket 24/7 is my PM9..

[O'Dell]

don't misinterpret us kahr guys, we think alot of glock and what they have done for the shooting industry. It is still the weapon of choice for over 60-% of law enforecment. But a glock and a kahr are IMO two real different guns.

In a firefight (what eve rin the hell that is), I would grab my 15 round G19 over my PM9.. but in my pocket 24/7 is my PM9..[/QUOTE]


This is one "Kahr guy" who doesn't care for Glocks. They don't fit my hand so I don't shoot them well, plus I don't completely trust them. I think you will find that they are the choice of 60% of police department bean counters rather than the officers. My local city police dept. issues them, and I know a lot of the officers because they come into the Diner. Most don't really like them much, but they have no choice. Two, I know, carry a S&W when off duty.

If I am in a 'fire fight' or home defence situation, I would grab an HK without hesitation, but I don't carry them much except in really cold weather.

[Bawanna]

Part of the problem we face in outfitting officers is all the stuff that goes with the gun. The holsters, the mag pouches, parts, on and on and on.
When we transitioned from Beretta's we had a really good commander willing to really look at all options. We looked at the Springfield XD, the lead firearms instructors choice, the Smith M&P, my first choice and the Glock, all in 45. Nobody wanted the Glock simply because everyone else has them. That theres a clue.
The M&P was still relatively new in the 45 with the XD not far behind. The issue we had was we couldn't find holsters for them. EVen the Glock in 45 was a challenge, lots in 9 and 40 but more limited in 45.
We toyed with the idea of letting officers choose from a menu but found that it created a multitude of other things to consider. Again parts, keeping up on armorer classes, the instructors dealing with different platforms even though they are all very similar.
They opted to stick with just one and it ended up being Glock. We did send every single one, 5 at a time to Robar for grip texture (a common complaint they are too slippery) and many had grip reductions which made a huge improvement in the feel also.
Quite often office people who are clueless to the needs of their officers make poor decisions but as in our case there were other considerations.
Our local county sheriffs have just recently switched to Smith M&P's. So far I'm told they love them. The holster options are much better than they were a couple years ago. Guess it's all about timing.

[rwblue01]

Nobody wanted the Glock simply because everyone else has them. That theres a clue.


Please explain?

[Bawanna]

Please explain?

I remember when we did our first transition from Beretta 92's. I was trying to figure out good options. I asked several officers what we should consider.
They said anything but a Glock. I inquired why since they have a pretty darn good over all reputation especially in Law Enforcement.
They were basically thinking 90 percent of the cadets at academy are carrying Glocks, so we want something different.

In my book, that's not sound thinking at all. There's a reason 90 % have Glocks and we should have went with them in the first place.

We went with Beretta 96's in 40. They worked well, I had no problems.

We have some very sharp and excellent officers and firearms instructors. 2 have each spent 3 years teaching at the academy, they know their stuff but when it comes to simple common sense stuff, they are kind of lacking.

Our first transistion they were in a big hurry to make it happen before the brass changed their mind. They made bad choices in their haste.

[jocko]

seems nobody wants what every one else has, guess maybe thats why wre karhsters instead of glocksters..

[Rainman48314]

There are aftermarket safety options for Glocks. Some attach to the trigger, some build a safety into the frame, and some are really just kits to change the stock 5.5# trigger to as much as 11#

http://www.tarnhelm.com/GlockSafety.html

http://www.topglock.com/item/68035_Siderlock_Parts_Siderlock_Glock_User_Inst.as px

[rwblue01]

In my book, that's not sound thinking at all. There's a reason 90 % have Glocks and we should have went with them in the first place.


I have to agree with you on that one. At least in IT Sec. when looking for a new tool, we find out what the top 4 performers are and choose one of them. If we are lucky we can lean on the experience of others in our field when there are issues.


I will also say that I am a huge fan of the G21, but I wouldn't arm anyone under6 feet tall with them when I could go 45GAP. This way you get the same large hole, but with a smaller grip.

[aray]

Thought I would add to this thread: real video of a guy with an accidental discharge. He shoots himself in the leg on film. At least he has the courage to take responsibility & post the video. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

[Dietrich]

Thought I would add to this thread: real video of a guy with an accidental discharge. He shoots himself in the leg on film. At least he has the courage to take responsibility & post the video. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

I`m glad he was man enough to admit it was his own fault.Seems like a straight-up guy.

[yqtszhj]

Ouch

[Barth]

O`Dell,you are exactly,100% correct.If a person doesn`t feel comfortable with any gun they should pass it by.In firearms ownership,it`s all about what you like.Not what others like.;)

I shoot Glocks well but never felt comfortable carrying one for self defense.
I love my MK40 though? I do think most accidental discharges are due to no holster "Plaxico Burress" syndrome.

[jeep45238]

Never be complacent. Respect, preferably, fear, the trigger itself.