Magazine Disconnect Safties???

[dannyeller]

Except for putting certain degenerate traits on public display, I firmly believe in the "for each their own". But for the life of me I can't see the wisdom in the hatred for mag disconnect safeties. I was in the military for 25 years and in law enforcement for five and still would be in law enforcement if it were not for the 20 plus years of jumping out of airplanes (body parts no longer agree with fight'n drunks). This in addition to 20 some years of competitive shooting of some kind. In all that time almost ALL, I say again almost "ALL" accidental/negligent discharges (ADs/NDs) with some causing either life altering injuries and some deaths were the sole result of the shooter taking the magazine out of the pistol after racking the slide (or not racking the slide at all) and then either shooting themselves or someone else by accident. Even when no one was injured the ramifications were usually career altering to say the least. A simple mag disconnect safety would have prevented each and every one of them. Such things as Loaded Chamber Indicators (LCI) (an external extractor works as one anyway) and mandatory safeties on double action types of firearms are mandated by people who do not know what they are doing. But the mag safeties are a good thing. I would pay $50 to $75 right now to have one installed on all three of my Glocks and both of my Kahrs if they were available.

I never recommend semi-autos for use by women. Not that some can't use them to great effect but MOST women have trouble racking the slide. Especially .380s and smaller calibers, since most of them work on a blow back type action they have much heavier recoil springs than even a .45. They can do things like cocking the hammer if the pistol has one before trying the rack the slide but remember these things are to be used in a time of stress. At least if a woman or a weak wrist-ed male (could be due to an injury or age related illness and not the lack of testosterone) can make a semi-auto ready in a non-stressed environment and then just take out the magazine to render the gun safe. They could then just insert the mag to make the gun ready just as fast if not faster than racking a pump shotgun.

The only magazine disconnect I've ever had an issue with was on a Brit colleague's Highpower when we were working together in Iraq. That particular mag disconnect safety would prevent the magazine from falling out of the weapon during a quick reload and you had to stick your finger way up the magwell to push a protruding button before you could drop the hammer. Which was required as part of a weapons clearing procedure before entering certain areas.

The reasons given as justifications against mag disconnect safeties just do not make since to me. If I am holding someone at gunpoint (unless the slide is locked back) the last thing I'm going to do is a reload. Just don't see it... And the wisdom of being able to use the pistol as a magazineless single shot just does not make up for the overwhelming number of ADs and NDs that occur with semi-auto handguns, period. Each one of those ADs and NDs is just another arrow in the quiver of those socialist, Godless bastards that want to take our firearms away.

But if you have bought it then I have no problem with you disabling it for your use. But be warned... You have... say again.... YOU HAVE sharpened the very blade those socialist, Godless bastards mentioned earlier are gong to use to cut your heart out, even if your shooting incident is 100% justified.

[jlottmc]

To answer that simply, is not really possible. Part of the problem is that people are reluctant to change and the old "the only REAL safety lies between the ears" mentality is there in spades. There are also stories of these devices causing the weapon to not fire when needed, or conversely firing when the weapon was thought to be in a safe condition. As you stated there are some designs that impede the removal of a magazine as well. With a great number of these polymer framed pistols out there (many if not most require a trigger pull to take them apart for cleaning) there are times when a person would swear that they had cleared the chamber just before they pulled the trigger to take it apart. I have done that very thing on a 1911, the round that I had cleared had some damage to the rim in that spot, and I pulled the trigger (I did have it pointed in a safe direction). I still swear to this day that that round had left the chamber, but in fact it may have just fallen right back in, and I put a hole in the floor of a mobile home that I was living in. Finally, any mechanical device can break and this is not just a mentality, but a fact. Murphy and his minions are a real *****, then O'tool comes in (O'tools' interpretation of Murphy's law: Murphy was an F'ing optimist). Bottom line looks like this, redundancy is a good thing, and with a magazine safeties give another layer. Having said all of that, I have one weapon with a magazine disconnect (must be careful not to dry fire without an empty magazine in place, or damage will be done), and can take them or leave them. I have also seen some other pistols like the one that I have, that have been dry fired too much have to be sent back to Ruger because it would not fire for real (luckily those were discovered at the range).

[dirksterg30]

My dislike for magazine disconnect safeties is because I like my defensive firearms as simple as possible. I don't want any added part or parts that will only increase complexity, and potentially lessen reliability. If you are advocating magazine safeties as a way to reduce negligent discharges, you may have a point, but that is a hardware solution to a software problem. In other words, the problem is the person behind the gun, not the gun itself.

I can see the use for one by LEO's, where a gun takeaway by a criminal is a possibility.

[Bawanna]

My dislike for magazine disconnect safeties is because I like my defensive firearms as simple as possible. I don't want an added part or parts that will only increase complexity, and potentially lessen reliability. If you are advocating magazine safeties as a way to reduce negligent discharges, you may have a point, but that is a hardware solution to a software problem. In other words, the problem is the person behind the gun, not the gun itself.

I can see the use for one by LEO's, where a gun takeaway by a criminal is a possibility.

Actually it would be a worse idea for LEO's who have a higher probablility of being confronted during a reload. Although I've often felt it would be nice to dump a mag during a physical encounter to render the gun inoperable.
With todays quicker to reholster with good retention holsters I don't think the mag disconnect would be a good thing for LEO's.
I also agree with the keep it simple theory you mention. I hate the new guns with a key to turn to make the darn thing work. Obviously designed my a mental midget and one that can easily make a good gun a paperweight at the most inopportune time.

[wyntrout]

K.I.S.S. -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. I want my defensive pistols to fire when I want them to. In close combat, or a "tussle", where physical contact can affect the operation of your pistol, the less things that negatively affect your weapon firing when you absolutely NEED it to, the better.
That's why I like Kahrs... mine, anyhow... no safety or magazine disconnect... AND I can now fire all of mine with either hand and without worrying about the "so-called limp-wristing". When you really need to fire a gun in self-defense, you won't necessarily be standing up with both hands taking careful aim and controlling your breath or trigger pull... OR getting a "proper sight-picture". More likely, you'll be trying to draw and fire in the general direction of your assailant(s) while fending one or more off and diving for cover, trying not to get shot in the process. If you only practice all of that perfect condition stuff, you probably won't be reacting in your best self-protection mode.
JMHO and YMMV.

Wynn:)

[dirksterg30]

Actually it would be a worse idea for LEO's who have a higher probablility of being confronted during a reload. Although I've often felt it would be nice to dump a mag during a physical encounter to render the gun inoperable. With todays quicker to reholster with good retention holsters I don't think the mag disconnect would be a good thing for LEO's.
Depends; I have read accounts where the mag disconnect possibly saved an officer's life. I think Ayoob wrote about a few occasions where it was a life-saver. Like many things, though, there are probably situations where it was a hindrance.


I also agree with the keep it simple theory you mention. I hate the new guns with a key to turn to make the darn thing work. Obviously designed my a mental midget and one that can easily make a good gun a paperweight at the most inopportune time.

I refer to guns like that as "lawyerfied". Another sign of a lawyerfied gun is where the manual is reprinted on the side of the gun (ie Ruger). Crap like that doesn't make the gun any safer. As the saying goes, make it idiot-proof, and someone will make a better idiot.

[wyntrout]

Police have a lot more things working against them. Anytime they are trying to confront a bad guy or "suspect", they have to be ready for attempts by anyone around them to gain control of his/her weapon to gain advantage over the cop.

That's a good reason for CONCEALED carry... not advertising that you HAVE a weapon or WHERE it's located. I'm worried enough that someone might notice "printing" and try to grab my weapon, or holler "He's got a gun!"

Wynn:)

[Longitude Zero]

That's a good reason for CONCEALED carry... not advertising that you HAVE a weapon or WHERE it's located. I'm worried enough that someone might notice "printing" and try to grab my weapon, or holler "He's got a gun!"

And that is why I consider Open Carry to be so stupid. Now back to the subject at hand.

[jocko]

indeed this Open carry stuff has been cussed, discussed, bisected and spit out so many different ways. thatI hope to God it never pops its stupid head again..

[BuckeyeBlast]

Didn't we have this exact same thread locked? Or am I just psychic for knowing where this is headed?

[Bawanna]

We did, you are, and hopefully we're not going there again.

[paul34]

Indeed, things like LCIs and magazine disconnects are pretty controversial. For me, I can live with an LCI so long as it is not intrusive (my XD has one that I do not mind).

I don't like magazine disconnects, mostly because I see Murphy jumping in and ejecting my magazine in some sort of tussle, leaving me with a round in the chamber I can't fire.

But for some people, a magazine disconnect may make sense. The great thing about living in the US in this day in age is that one has several options. So you're definitely not "stuck" with a magazine disconnect (or without one, etc). I also subscribe to the KISS philosophy.

[bigbob68]

I don't care for locks on my revolvers nor a Mag disconnect on my semi autos. I will not own a semi auto or Revolver with any such a saftey. Sold My H&K USP 45F because of a lock built-in but still have my Glock G21.

[jlottmc]

That's where the sincere and articulate went. WTF, oh well, I stand by what I said then and now.

[500KV]

What more can be said on this subject that hasn't already been said.
I still say...http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab225/500KV_album/beat-dead-horse.gif

I can't help but wonder ; does the OP sell mag disconnect safties or simply own stock in a company that does?

[wyntrout]

That's a good one!

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab225/500KV_album/beat-dead-horse.gif

Now we need a Grim Reaper one for Bawanna for when he closes threads... or a vampire killer driving a stake into a vampire's heart.

http://stashbox.org/514847/big-and-large-smiley-grim-reaper-smiley-5137.gif

Wynn:D

[garyb]

I never recommend semi-autos for use by women. Not that some can't use them to great effect but MOST women have trouble racking the slide. Especially .380s and smaller calibers, since most of them work on a blow back type action they have much heavier recoil springs than even a .45.

I am not trying to create an argument but I am sorry that I can't disagree with you more. Most women will also disagree with you. My wife and I spent months shopping for her first new handgun. Realize that she is a petite woman, but has shot very competitively, 3X state champion with a 50cal muzzle loader. She can handle a weapon beyond your imagination. She did not like revolvers, even though I tried to steer her that way because her body mechanics were such that the slide operation was not strength as much as mechanics. She did have a problem racking the slide on almost every handgun we looked at in 9mm, 40S&W and 45 (and that is ALOT of handguns over many months), with the exception of the 380 autos. In almost every gun we reviewed, the 380 autos have a much weaker spring than the others. We looked at almost every 380 auto on the market, because she actually liked the way she could operate the slide on the 380. She settled on the S&W Bodyguard 380 because she CAN EASILY work the slide. She also like it because it has reasonable sights, was sold at a good price and had multiple additional features that come with this little gun. However, the primary reason she selected the Bodyguard 380 is that she could work the slide easily and its' size.

From my wife, the key thing I've learned about a woman in the shooting sports is to let them make their own decisions. I simply show her different things and advise her of the pros and cons as I see them, but she makes her own decisions...and then she is happy. Happy Wife, Happy Life! She enjoys this 380 because she can shoot it very well and can operate it well. WE have no problem with her carrying a 380 auto semi. In fact, I am glad she does.

[Bawanna]

That's a good one!

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab225/500KV_album/beat-dead-horse.gif

Now we need a Grim Reaper one for Bawanna for when he closes threads... or a vampire killer driving a stake into a vampire's heart.

http://stashbox.org/514847/big-and-large-smiley-grim-reaper-smiley-5137.gif

Wynn:D

Oh I really like the horse one, that would be a good one to add to the list here.

The grim reaper is cool too but too much of a girly man look to the face. Need one with a little more stern if you follow the flow of my river.

I want everyone to know that I really don't enjoy closing threads, I don't believe Justin or John enjoy it either. I probably do still have a swelled head with that big title and all. I've been thinking of seeking a promotion or at least add onto my title for more flashyness ya know.
I've been accused of closing threads too soon. The last couple I got PM's wondering what was taking me so long to shut em down. So I guess I don't got the hang of it still being a rookie and all. No promotion duh?
I'm trying to hold off and let things work themselves out. If I get PM's saying shut it down, thats what we call a clue, and one PM means theres lot thinking the same so that usually gets the plug pulled.
Anyone whos been here even briefly knows what flys and what don't. Certain things get the plug pulled on the spot, others are circling the drain but maybe theres potential to be saved and some additional good info added.
Guess I'm just trying to do the best I can for everybody even at the expense of maybe making a few not happy. I know we can't please everyone but I surely do try to.
I do enjoy this place immensely and have lots of good friends here.

[wyntrout]

Hey! No criticism about you and the job you're doing... just trying to add a little humor. I borrowed the Googled Reaper. I was thinking a bit smaller and mounted in/on a chariot would be a closer "fit"... just in fun! :)

I have your Monroe Police pose in 8" by 10" on the wall here to show anyone my buddy on Kahrtalk... the one with the "service dog" and the M14. I love that photo.

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

Hey! No criticism about you and the job you're doing... just trying to add a little humor. I borrowed the Googled Reaper. I was thinking a bit smaller and mounted in/on a chariot would be a closer "fit"... just in fun! :)

I have your Monroe Police pose in 8" by 10" on the wall here to show anyone my buddy on Kahrtalk... the one with the "service dog" and the M14. I love that photo.

Wynn:)

Aww Wyn, I didn't read it as any criticism but felt it was a good opportunity to explain myself for some of my actions. That was a cool dog in that photo and the M14 is on my desk. The dog washed out as a service dog, didn't get along with other dogs I guess, much to the happiness of one of the sgts families who grew attached to it. They got him back.
The reaper in a chariot would be wicked cool for sure. Like that idea immensely.

[Bawanna]

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/hopke5/GrimReaper.jpg

Couldn't find a chariot but found a scooter.

[500KV]

Now that's really cool Bawanna.
Tell us though...Does it have a safety disconnect on it?:D :D :D

[Bawanna]

Now that's really cool Bawanna.
Tell us though...Does it have a safety disconnect on it?:D :D :D

If that skeleton dude lets go of that front wheel, safety is right out the freakin window and officially disconnected, so I guess yes.

[jocko]

we lost James Arness today alias Matt dillon age 88..

[Bawanna]

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/hopke5/JustDOIT.jpg

This oughta get r dun. Hmmm, forgot icecream. Another time.


I sure spent alot of time watch Matt Dillon. We're losing alot of good guys and gals lately.

[jocko]

ur so kind Bawanna, I can't print the words even!!!! I bet he and Miss Kitty are now making whoopee big time.

Damn I can say this in my younger bar hooping days, te bar maids n the bars I visited, the miss kitty's looked like friggin dogs!!!!

[Bawanna]

ur so kind Bawanna, I can't print the words even!!!! I bet he and Miss Kitty are now making whoopee big time.

Damn I can say this in my younger bar hooping days, te bar maids n the bars I visited, the miss kitty's looked like friggin dogs!!!!

The funny part is I can still clearly recall ole Matt never laid a hand on Miss Kitty. Never held her hand, hugged or any physical sign of effection.
He cozied up far more to Festus and Doc than he ever did Miss Kitty.

[jocko]

Humm: very intersting watson, Festus and also that stiff legged one before festus--Humm, very interesting Watson.

[MW surveyor]

I believe the one before Festus was Chester

Thank God this thread has been hijacked!

[jocko]

yup ur right. arness was married and had two sons. I think I liked festus better, he kinda remindsme of Bawanna,

hell no thread on this forum is worth a damnb if it ain't hi-jacked once or twice.. u should know that surv.

[Bawanna]

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n538/hopke5/JustDOIT.jpg

This oughta get r dun. Hmmm, forgot icecream. Another time.


I sure spent alot of time watch Matt Dillon. We're losing alot of good guys and gals lately.

I'm thinking of getting a bunch of T shirts made up with this logo on it. Any interest? Thought I might put em in the Kahr accessory area. Discount for Kahrtalk members of course. Maybe hats too?

My first venture as an enterpreneaur (reckon I better figure out how to spell that if I'm gonna be one, ya think.)

Maybe next I'd work on Nephew MIkey LIKES IT!

I already got a 100 Dear Dietrich ideas......................

[jocko]

i outta get one free???? u think???

[Bawanna]

i outta get one free???? u think???

Yeah, that sounds pretty fair to me. Course you'd have to pick up the 19.95 shipping and handling charge. Plus insurance since I think these are gonna be collector items. I'm thinking of marketing thru one of them special gun places like America Remembers or something. Number em you know like #1 of 368 Billion. This is gonna be really big.
I should probably get me a bottom feeder to set me up copy rights and stuff so somebody don't steal my idear and run off with it.

Aw heck, I'll get ya one free and cover shipping and insurance. But if it don't fit you ain't getting no pick up tag!

[MW surveyor]

hell no thread on this forum is worth a damnb if it ain't hi-jacked once or twice.. u should know that surv.


I even try to hijack'm myself at times. :behindsofa:

[jocko]

why would I not expect that from u???? u don't last 629 posts without some hi-jacking, just can't be done on this forum, we seem to get serious for aobut 3 posts at best and then it is "kattie bar the door"...

[Bawanna]

i outta get one free???? u think???

Need a shirt size. I seem to recall 5'10 but not a weight. I'm thinking XL?

Maybe I should get one for Mrs Jocko first, enlighten her and give you a good chance to look it over and make sure it's right.

[jocko]

large at best, I am a hunk of a man at 169# in my anthony weiner signature shorts..

[MikeyKahr]

That's Representative Weiner, jocko. Let's be respectful. I'm good with the shirt, I'd buy one. Actually, I think we could get them for free - Baskin-Robbins might just pick up the tab for us! :eek: And yes, I do like Life cereal. Mrs. MikeyKahr's favorite too.

[jocko]

ok, representative it is. now tell me truthfully: doee he look like a compelte di-k or am I just just imagining it??

[BuckeyeBlast]

He definitely looks like a Weiner.

[MikeyKahr]

ok, representative it is. now tell me truthfully: doee he look like a compelte di-k or am I just just imagining it??

Things looked horrible for the future-former representative a few days ago. After today's press conference, is it possible for things to get worse? Even his buddy Pelosi wants an ethics investigation on Weiner. Is there any way possible for this bum to get stay on long term as he said he will - and maybe even seek reelection? I think it'd be a huge mistake for the Democrats to back this horse in 2012, but stranger things have happened.

[wyntrout]

That's the guy that was absolutely outraged and indignant... apoplectic that anyone but the government should claim your estate when you die... even though you were taxed as you made the money and spent the money or earned interest.
He was screaming they're dead! Why should anyone else get the money.

Of course, he won't quit... he's a Democ-RAT and knows no shame... and certainly has no honor.

Wynn:)

[kpm9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTalnzcO0xk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

proper trigger discipline would prevented every AD that ever happened with modern pistols, most of which now include a firing pin block safety. period...end of story.

[CJB]

proper trigger discipline would prevented every AD that ever happened with modern pistols, most of which now include a firing pin block safety. period...end of story.

Except those stuck firing pin Model 59 and 39 Smith and Wesson's, or those slam fire Glocks, or... those Browings that fired when you put the safety into the "off" position, or... you get the idea. I agree with you, but mechanical problems still account for their share of problems. Even Sig had its share of slam fires a while back. Mechanical things can fail, or just be made incorrectly.

[jlottmc]

Who brought this back on topic? We had a good thread jacking going here. Let us all remember the three most important of the commandments 1: all guns are loaded always 2: point the muzzle not at anything that needs not be shot, as well as the behind the things that do need shootin' 3: Keep your booger hook off the bang switch until something needs shootin'.

[kpm9]

Except those stuck firing pin Model 59 and 39 Smith and Wesson's, or those slam fire Glocks, or... those Browings that fired when you put the safety into the "off" position, or... you get the idea. I agree with you, but mechanical problems still account for their share of problems. Even Sig had its share of slam fires a while back. Mechanical things can fail, or just be made incorrectly.

Not to belabor the point, but all Glock double fires that I've heard of were attributed to modified trigger components and I've never heard of a Glock "slamfiring".
Speaking as certified Sig Armorer, properly maintained/unmodified Sig pistols will not slam fire. The trigger has to be pulled which means the users finger or other device is engaging the trigger, causing the disconnector to engage the firing pin block safety.

Magazine disconnects will also not prevent a faulty trigger mechanism, neither will they prevent defective pistols.

It is the sole responsibility of the end user to engage in proper gun safety which includes muzzle and trigger discipline. Failure to do both is gross negligence and a mechanical device, to your point should never be counted on a fail-safe or an excuse for stupidity.